Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Brian Westley"
Date:	14 Jan 2008 06:24:43 PM
Object:	Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again

Yep, the proposed 2008 budget for Colorado Springs includes
$5,000 for the Pike's Peak Boy Scout council's Scoutreach program:
http://www.springsgov.com/units/budget/2008/2008PAppendixC.pdf
I emailed the city and pointed out that the BSA says atheists
can't join ANY of the programs listed in the Pike's Peak
Scoutreach program (Packs, Troops, and Crews).
The Colorado Springs city manager of housing and community
development assured me that atheists COULD join all the Scoutreach
programs funded by the HUD community development block grant
(all CDBG projects have to abide by required nondiscrimination
policies, including religion).
Imagine my non-surprise when I called the Pike's Peak council and
they told me no, atheist youth could NOT avail themselves of these
publically-funded programs. They claimed their lawyer worked
something out with the city.
I've contacted the Colorado ACLU and I'll keep people posted.
Anyone in the Colorado Springs area who'd like to help?
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	18 Jan 2008 10:35:53 PM

Brian Westley <west...@visi.com> wrote:

I emailed the city and pointed out that the BSA says
atheists can't join ANY of the programs listed in the
Pike's Peak Scoutreach program (Packs, Troops, and
Crews).

Not to mention gay kids.
.

User: "Brian Westley"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	19 Jan 2008 11:55:12 PM

JTEM <jtem01@gmail.com> writes:

Brian Westley <west...@visi.com> wrote:

I emailed the city and pointed out that the BSA says
atheists can't join ANY of the programs listed in the
Pike's Peak Scoutreach program (Packs, Troops, and
Crews).

Not to mention gay kids.

Correct, but in this case, HUD does not require nondiscrimination
on the basis of sexual orientation. It might be possible to
sue on, say, 8th amendment equal protection grounds, but the
religious discrimination is enough to cut off the BSA.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	15 Jan 2008 07:58:59 PM

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:24:43 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:

Yep, the proposed 2008 budget for Colorado Springs includes
$5,000 for the Pike's Peak Boy Scout council's Scoutreach program:

http://www.springsgov.com/units/budget/2008/2008PAppendixC.pdf

I emailed the city and pointed out that the BSA says atheists
can't join ANY of the programs listed in the Pike's Peak
Scoutreach program (Packs, Troops, and Crews).

The Colorado Springs city manager of housing and community
development assured me that atheists COULD join all the Scoutreach
programs funded by the HUD community development block grant
(all CDBG projects have to abide by required nondiscrimination
policies, including religion).

Imagine my non-surprise when I called the Pike's Peak council and
they told me no, atheist youth could NOT avail themselves of these
publically-funded programs. They claimed their lawyer worked
something out with the city.

I've contacted the Colorado ACLU and I'll keep people posted.

Anyone in the Colorado Springs area who'd like to help?

---
Merlyn LeRoy

there's a saying in the bible about prideful people that "strain at gnats
and swallow a camel"
Colorado Springs is a *wealthy* community; extremely wealthy. But you've
got nothing better to do than go on crusade against $5,000. Well, I have
no doubt that the BSA would do better by NOT taking your pittance so,
while your motives seem to be contentious and confrontational, lacking in
the very character that the BSA is trying to instill in young men, in this
case I think I agree with you. Let the Scouting program be uncontaminated
by atheist dollars.
.

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	18 Jan 2008 10:37:46 PM

Michael <newsus...@orneveien.org> wrote:

Colorado Springs is a *wealthy* community; extremely
wealthy.

....so you'd think that if they wanted to discriminate, they
could afford to do it on their own dime, instead of at taxpayer
expense.
Amazing, isn't it?
These people are so evil that they want to steal the money they
use to ***** on others....
And, oh: Go ***** yourself really hard, and without any butter.
Thanks in advance.
.

User: "Brian Westley"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	16 Jan 2008 12:18:34 AM

Michael <newsuser2@orneveien.org> writes:

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:24:43 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:

Yep, the proposed 2008 budget for Colorado Springs includes
$5,000 for the Pike's Peak Boy Scout council's Scoutreach program:

http://www.springsgov.com/units/budget/2008/2008PAppendixC.pdf

I emailed the city and pointed out that the BSA says atheists
can't join ANY of the programs listed in the Pike's Peak
Scoutreach program (Packs, Troops, and Crews).

The Colorado Springs city manager of housing and community
development assured me that atheists COULD join all the Scoutreach
programs funded by the HUD community development block grant
(all CDBG projects have to abide by required nondiscrimination
policies, including religion).

Imagine my non-surprise when I called the Pike's Peak council and
they told me no, atheist youth could NOT avail themselves of these
publically-funded programs. They claimed their lawyer worked
something out with the city.

I've contacted the Colorado ACLU and I'll keep people posted.

Anyone in the Colorado Springs area who'd like to help?

If it's a wealthy community, private clubs can raise their own funds
instead of defrauding the government.

Well, I have
no doubt that the BSA would do better by NOT taking your pittance so,
while your motives seem to be contentious and confrontational, lacking in
the very character that the BSA is trying to instill in young men, in this
case I think I agree with you. Let the Scouting program be uncontaminated
by atheist dollars.

No comment on the Boy Scouts fraud? Is it honest for the Pike's Peak
council to knowingly accept funds that require nondiscrimination, yet
illegally exclude atheists?
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	18 Jan 2008 07:46:21 PM

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:18:34 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:

No comment on the Boy Scouts fraud? Is it honest for the Pike's Peak
council to knowingly accept funds that require nondiscrimination, yet
illegally exclude atheists?

I am tempted to say no (re: is it honest?), and yet, as I have just now
reviewed my own Scout application (form 28-501 for adults) I find nothing
at all thereon pertaining to my belief in God. It asks about potential
criminal history and asks for several references. In my six years of
adult service with Scouting nobody has ever asked if I believe in God;
being asked *anything* about religion is quite rare and associated with
identifying my chartering organization for organizational purposes. Each
zone gets two members on the committee and happen to be more or
less aligned geographically with divisions of churches at least in my
hometown. Not many people know what "zone" they are in, but they do know
where they go to church, and from that you can deduce the zone.
So I imagine there is a presumption that I believe in God (true for me)
but it is not first, second or even tenth thing anyone wants to know.
Vastly more important to many people is whether or not I have a trailer
hitch and can pull the Scout troop trailer to the camporee and do I have
propane for the camp stove? The buzz for several years has been strict
compliance with the rules for adult leaders. We all know the kids are not
likely to obey very many rules, but leader compliance must be meticulous.
The youth application (form 28-209Q) asks nothing about religion; it does
let you choose from among 6 ethnic groups (but my nephew's application
left that blank without objection from anyone).
The idea is that a chartering organization will deal with such things.
Church troops will be somewhat more religious than a troop chartered by a
city Fire Department or the Lion's Club.
It might be somewhat difficult for an atheist boy to attend camp with a
religiously chartered troop; but really, hardly any 13 year old boy is
"religious". What is more likely to happen is that at night, around the
campfire, the Scoutmaster might tell a brief story how religion, or God,
has influenced him in a way that relates somehow to Scouting. Whether or
not ANY of the boys believe in God, they will hear the story and accept
that the *scoutmaster* believes and has influenced his life in some manner
that he deems worthy of telling.
Keep in mind that while perhaps cities cannot *establish* religion
they also cannot discriminate *against* it. So long as the city gives a
similar amount of money to any and all youth groups that ask, perhaps in
proportion to the number of youth represented, then I cannot see how they
are violating the law just because one of those youth groups has an
expectation (although plainly not a requirement) to believe in God.
In fact, if I were on a Jury and the *only* reason the city discriminated
against the Boy Scouts was this expectation of religion by *some*
chartering units of the BSA, I would find against the city, for that is
violating "the free expression thereof" clause of the First Amendment.
The city would need to make it clear the purpose of its grant as it
relates to Youth activities separately and distinctly from any religious
aspect; and it seems the topic of discussion is something doing with
Pike's Peak itself -- not God.
If you take your logic to the extreme (a good way to discover
flaws in thinking) you would see that no public school would be permitted
to hire any teacher who had religion since some public money may wind up
in the collection plates of said churches. This is plainly ridiculous,
and it is ridiculous because the government is establishing education, not
religion; even though *some* religions are indirect beneficiaries, even if
for some peculiar reason only the Amish applied to be teachers and thus
the Amish religion happened to be "established" thereby. I do not believe
public agencies should even CONSIDER religion, because that puts the city
in the position of deciding what is, and what is not, a religion.
I mean, here we are arguing after the Supreme Court has already settled
it, that atheism is a "religion" and thus no more entitled to public money
than the Boy Scouts of America!
.

User: "Brian Westley"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	19 Jan 2008 11:46:38 PM

Michael <newsuser2@orneveien.org> writes:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:18:34 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:

No comment on the Boy Scouts fraud? Is it honest for the Pike's Peak
council to knowingly accept funds that require nondiscrimination, yet
illegally exclude atheists?

I am tempted to say no (re: is it honest?), and yet, as I have just now
reviewed my own Scout application (form 28-501 for adults) I find nothing
at all thereon pertaining to my belief in God.

Then you're not very observant.
http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf
....
To do my duty to God
....
Excerpt From Declaration of Religious Principle
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into
the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God
and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training
of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude
toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and
organization or group with which the member is connected shall give
definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to
subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious
Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be
entitled to certificates of leadership.
Leadership Requirements
Excerpt From Declaration of Religious Principle The applicant must
possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy
Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to
youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, and subscribe to
the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by
the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law.
....

It asks about potential
criminal history and asks for several references. In my six years of
adult service with Scouting nobody has ever asked if I believe in God;
being asked *anything* about religion is quite rare and associated with
identifying my chartering organization for organizational purposes. Each
zone gets two members on the committee and happen to be more or
less aligned geographically with divisions of churches at least in my
hometown. Not many people know what "zone" they are in, but they do know
where they go to church, and from that you can deduce the zone.
So I imagine there is a presumption that I believe in God (true for me)
but it is not first, second or even tenth thing anyone wants to know.

That doesn't matter.
The Pike's Peak council signed an agreement that they would NOT
discriminate on the basis of religion or creed. But they LIED.
They are using their same old "no atheists allowed" programs
and insist that atheists can't join. I've actually talked to
some of the people involved. They TOLD me atheists can't join
these programs paid for by CDB grants.
Fortunately, the city manager sees that this is a big problem.

Vastly more important to many people is whether or not I have a trailer
hitch and can pull the Scout troop trailer to the camporee and do I have
propane for the camp stove? The buzz for several years has been strict
compliance with the rules for adult leaders. We all know the kids are not
likely to obey very many rules, but leader compliance must be meticulous.
The youth application (form 28-209Q) asks nothing about religion;

Wrong again.
http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-406.pdf
....
To do my duty to God
....
Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into
the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God
and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training
of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude
toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and
organization or group with which the member is connected shall give
definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to
subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious
Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be
entitled to certificates of leadership.
....

it does
let you choose from among 6 ethnic groups (but my nephew's application
left that blank without objection from anyone).
The idea is that a chartering organization will deal with such things.
Church troops will be somewhat more religious than a troop chartered by a
city Fire Department or the Lion's Club.

City fire departments haven't been able to charter troops since 2005.
I made a list of about 9,000 public schools and other government
agencies that were illegally chartering packs & troops and sent
this to Adam Schwartz of the Illinois ACLU; he sent a letter to
the BSA threatening to sue any government agency that discriminated
against atheists by running a pack/troop/crew/etc. The BSA told
its councils to recharter all such units, and not to charter
them to government agencies in the future:
http://www.aclu-il.org/news/press/2005/03/national_boy_scout_organizatio.shtml
And the BSA reflects this now:
http://www.scouting.org/relationships/34196/01.html
....
The location of public schools, charter schools, home-schooling
associations, school expansions, or other after-school programs that
could benefit from the organization of new units [Note: Public schools
and government organizations do not serve as chartered organizations]
....
The BSA was too dishonest to do this by themselves. They had to
be threatened with lawsuits first.
The same is true of their HUD CDBG fraud.

It might be somewhat difficult for an atheist boy to attend camp with a
religiously chartered troop; but really, hardly any 13 year old boy is
"religious". What is more likely to happen is that at night, around the
campfire, the Scoutmaster might tell a brief story how religion, or God,
has influenced him in a way that relates somehow to Scouting. Whether or
not ANY of the boys believe in God, they will hear the story and accept
that the *scoutmaster* believes and has influenced his life in some manner
that he deems worthy of telling.
Keep in mind that while perhaps cities cannot *establish* religion
they also cannot discriminate *against* it. So long as the city gives a
similar amount of money to any and all youth groups that ask, perhaps in
proportion to the number of youth represented, then I cannot see how they
are violating the law just because one of those youth groups has an
expectation (although plainly not a requirement) to believe in God.

HUD requires this, not the city, but in any case, the city can
require that each and every organization follow generally applicable
nondiscrimination requirements.

In fact, if I were on a Jury and the *only* reason the city discriminated
against the Boy Scouts was this expectation of religion by *some*
chartering units of the BSA, I would find against the city, for that is
violating "the free expression thereof" clause of the First Amendment.

Wrong. First amendment rights does not mean you get government money.
And the BSA would not be denied based on "beliefs", but on the BSA's
policies that have religious requirements for membership.

The city would need to make it clear the purpose of its grant as it
relates to Youth activities separately and distinctly from any religious
aspect; and it seems the topic of discussion is something doing with
Pike's Peak itself -- not God.
If you take your logic to the extreme (a good way to discover
flaws in thinking) you would see that no public school would be permitted
to hire any teacher who had religion since some public money may wind up
in the collection plates of said churches. This is plainly ridiculous,
and it is ridiculous because the government is establishing education, not
religion; even though *some* religions are indirect beneficiaries, even if
for some peculiar reason only the Amish applied to be teachers and thus
the Amish religion happened to be "established" thereby. I do not believe
public agencies should even CONSIDER religion, because that puts the city
in the position of deciding what is, and what is not, a religion.

Uh, no, that's not my logic. Using your logic, if the teacher
refused to teach atheist students, you'd argue that's OK, because
to demand that the teacher actually not discriminate on the basis
of religion while being funded by the public somehow constitutes
religious discrimination against the teacher.

I mean, here we are arguing after the Supreme Court has already settled
it, that atheism is a "religion" and thus no more entitled to public money
than the Boy Scouts of America!

The supreme court has not said that atheism is a religion, though many
lower courts have ruled in cases where atheism needs to be treated the
same as a religion. But your argument is nonsense anyway, since a
program that exclude everyone except atheists would also not qualify
for a HUD CDB grant, because that is also religious discrimination.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	20 Jan 2008 03:01:39 AM

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:46:38 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:

Excerpt From Declaration of Religious Principle

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into
the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God
and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training
of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude
toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and
organization or group with which the member is connected shall give
definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to
subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious
Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be
entitled to certificates of leadership.

Leadership Requirements
Excerpt From Declaration of Religious Principle The applicant must
possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy
Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to
youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, and subscribe to
the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by
the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law.

Yes, these are "viewpoints" to use the terms the Supreme Court and other
courts have used. The Scouting program can have as many viewpoints as
they like without running afoul of antidiscrimination laws. At law what
matters is what is documented, and nothing on the applications requires
belief in God, and no religious merit badge is required to achieve Eagle
Scout rank.
I'd better check on that real quick...
Nope, no religious merit badge required for Eagle and no place to put a
declaration of belief in God.
Yes, the BSA believes that morality emanates from a *belief* in God, that
belief in a supreme being helps people govern themselves; the lack of this
belief sometimes produces the out-of-control behavior we see on
alt.atheism. (I say sometimes, since some other thing can take the place
of god-belief and produce a sense of duty).
A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	20 Jan 2008 05:06:57 AM

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.
My daughter doesn't believe in a god.
Who are you to say otherwise?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.

User: "Texan "
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 AM

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

It is also quite common in asian countrys for 12 year olds to become
novice BUddhist monks. I would think that wouldput the lie to your
statement that 12 year olds are to young to either believe or
disbelieve.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	25 Jan 2008 03:56:48 AM

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?
.

User: "thomas p."
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	27 Jan 2008 01:06:48 PM

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	27 Jan 2008 06:28:11 PM

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

The assertion *clearly* commits a basic logical fallacy.
That "becoming a monk" necessarily entails a commitment to either
"belief" or "disbelief".
This is just plain wrong on so many levels that he is either STOOPID,
or deliberately expressing a known fallacy.
.

User: "thomas p."
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	28 Jan 2008 10:54:47 AM

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a88qp3dej7b3mjppn852asa2ebf181aijb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief
in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that
drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

He did not say it necessarily entailed anything. He was merely suggesting
that the theist loon he was talking to had no basis for the absolute
assertions he was making. I was rather surprised that you attacked him
instead of the person who was unambiguously making absolute claims based on
zero support.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	28 Jan 2008 11:19:35 PM

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:54:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a88qp3dej7b3mjppn852asa2ebf181aijb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief
in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that
drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

He did not say it necessarily entailed anything.

I am getting sick of this:
He *did* say that the asserted fact that 12 yr olds become monks puts
a lie to the proposition that 12yr olds are too young to either
believe or disbelive.
You are 100% wrong with your claim "He did not say it necessarily
entailed anything."
He did.
That is as plain and clear as any proposition.
Yet is a logical fallacy for the reason(s) that I have outlined.
I called him/her on this fallacy, end of excersize.

He was merely suggesting
that the theist loon he was talking to had no basis for the absolute
assertions he was making.

That may be, I am not addressing that.
He forwarded a logical fallacy.
I was calling him "STOOPID" for that.
Excessively harsh?
Perhaps.
Wrong?
No.

I was rather surprised that you attacked him
instead of the person who was unambiguously making absolute claims based on
zero support.

I have not even got to that level, merely addressing a plain logical
fallacy.
Any remarks upon which it was based can wait until the fallacy is
corrected.
.

User: "thomas p."
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 01:08:04 AM

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4fdtp3p35h8qo0g8p166g3mr89c21qiid6@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:54:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a88qp3dej7b3mjppn852asa2ebf181aijb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief
in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that
drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

He did not say it necessarily entailed anything.

I am getting sick of this:
He *did* say that the asserted fact that 12 yr olds become monks puts
a lie to the proposition that 12yr olds are too young to either
believe or disbelive.
You are 100% wrong with your claim "He did not say it necessarily
entailed anything."
He did.

That is as plain and clear as any proposition.
Yet is a logical fallacy for the reason(s) that I have outlined.

I called him/her on this fallacy, end of excersize.

He was merely suggesting
that the theist loon he was talking to had no basis for the absolute
assertions he was making.

That may be, I am not addressing that.
He forwarded a logical fallacy.
I was calling him "STOOPID" for that.
Excessively harsh?
Perhaps.
Wrong?
No.

I was rather surprised that you attacked him
instead of the person who was unambiguously making absolute claims based
on
zero support.

I have not even got to that level, merely addressing a plain logical
fallacy.
Any remarks upon which it was based can wait until the fallacy is
corrected.

He was arguing for the possibility of a person being an atheist or a theist
as a child. I had thought that you believed we were all atheists as babies,
i.e. you agreed with him. A person being a Buddhist monk as a child is not
proof of that possibility, but it certainly is an indication of the
possibility. The loon who insisted that we are neither atheist or theist as
children had nothing to offer in support of his claim. What is your
opinion?
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 02:21:22 AM

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:08:04 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4fdtp3p35h8qo0g8p166g3mr89c21qiid6@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:54:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a88qp3dej7b3mjppn852asa2ebf181aijb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief
in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that
drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

He did not say it necessarily entailed anything.

I am getting sick of this:
He *did* say that the asserted fact that 12 yr olds become monks puts
a lie to the proposition that 12yr olds are too young to either
believe or disbelive.
You are 100% wrong with your claim "He did not say it necessarily
entailed anything."
He did.

That is as plain and clear as any proposition.
Yet is a logical fallacy for the reason(s) that I have outlined.

I called him/her on this fallacy, end of excersize.

He was merely suggesting
that the theist loon he was talking to had no basis for the absolute
assertions he was making.

That may be, I am not addressing that.
He forwarded a logical fallacy.
I was calling him "STOOPID" for that.
Excessively harsh?
Perhaps.
Wrong?
No.

I was rather surprised that you attacked him
instead of the person who was unambiguously making absolute claims based
on
zero support.

I have not even got to that level, merely addressing a plain logical
fallacy.
Any remarks upon which it was based can wait until the fallacy is
corrected.

He was arguing for the possibility of a person being an atheist or a theist
as a child. I had thought that you believed we were all atheists as babies,
i.e. you agreed with him.

That is light years away from his literal propostion.

A person being a Buddhist monk as a child is not
proof of that possibility, but it certainly is an indication of the
possibility.
The loon who insisted that we are neither atheist or theist as
children had nothing to offer in support of his claim. What is your
opinion?

Whiklst that questiohn is of interest to me, it is a distraction from
that demonstrable fact that the OP's asserion was a logical fallacy.
Please do not attempt to change the subject again.
I think that the nub of our disagreement rests upon my (and many other
thinkers') opinion that "disbelief" does not equal "lack of belief".
Please re-read the intercourse with that in mind, and I am confident
that you will understand my position.
You appear to be supporting someone who propses that an active lack of
belief is concordant with passive atheism.
This is provably wrong.
Agreed?
You really are pushing ***** up hill in order to "save face", are you
not?
The OP was plainly wrong, no matter what sauce you choose to coat it
in.
.

User: "thomas p."
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 05:28:47 AM

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:tdotp3dklpka303i5hl84p4n18uooo5vum@4ax.com...

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:08:04 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

snip

The loon who insisted that we are neither atheist or theist as
children had nothing to offer in support of his claim. What is your
opinion?

Whiklst that questiohn is of interest to me, it is a distraction from
that demonstrable fact that the OP's asserion was a logical fallacy.
Please do not attempt to change the subject again.

I was not changing the subject. I was trying to get you to see it
differently.

I think that the nub of our disagreement rests upon my (and many other
thinkers') opinion that "disbelief" does not equal "lack of belief".

Actually it does, since ''disbelief" means exactly the same thing as "lack
of belief".

Please re-read the intercourse with that in mind, and I am confident
that you will understand my position.

You appear to be supporting someone who propses that an active lack of
belief is concordant with passive atheism.
This is provably wrong.
Agreed?

You really are pushing ***** up hill in order to "save face", are you
not?

No, but I don't think I want to pursue this.

The OP was plainly wrong, no matter what sauce you choose to coat it
in.

You are welcome to your opinion.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 09:38:48 PM

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:28:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:tdotp3dklpka303i5hl84p4n18uooo5vum@4ax.com...

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:08:04 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

snip

The loon who insisted that we are neither atheist or theist as
children had nothing to offer in support of his claim. What is your
opinion?

Whiklst that questiohn is of interest to me, it is a distraction from
that demonstrable fact that the OP's asserion was a logical fallacy.
Please do not attempt to change the subject again.

I was not changing the subject. I was trying to get you to see it
differently.

I think that the nub of our disagreement rests upon my (and many other
thinkers') opinion that "disbelief" does not equal "lack of belief".

Actually it does, since ''disbelief" means exactly the same thing as "lack
of belief".

No it does not!
Not "exactly", nor even "approximately".
One is active, and the other is passive!
This is the nub of our disagreement.
Mr. Lee has much to say on this distinction.
:
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	30 Jan 2008 07:00:44 AM

On 30 Jan., 04:38, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:28:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:tdotp3dklpka303i5hl84p4n18uooo5vum@4ax.com...

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:08:04 +0100, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

snip

The loon who insisted that we are neither atheist or theist as
children had nothing to offer in support of his claim. =A0What is your
opinion?

Whiklst that questiohn is of interest to me, it is a distraction from
that demonstrable fact that the OP's asserion was a logical fallacy.
Please do not attempt to change the subject again.

I was not changing the subject. =A0I was trying to get you to see it
differently.

I think that the nub of our disagreement rests upon my (and many other
thinkers') opinion that "disbelief" does not equal "lack of belief".

Actually it does, since ''disbelief" means exactly the same thing as "lac=

of belief".

No it does not!
Not "exactly", nor even "approximately".
One is active, and the other is passive!
This is the nub of our disagreement.

Mr. Lee has much to say on this distinction.

:- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn -

- Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn -

I am not going to say anything more on this subject.
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 05:56:20 AM

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:28:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:tdotp3dklpka303i5hl84p4n18uooo5vum@4ax.com...

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:08:04 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

snip

The loon who insisted that we are neither atheist or theist as
children had nothing to offer in support of his claim. What is your
opinion?

Whiklst that questiohn is of interest to me, it is a distraction from
that demonstrable fact that the OP's asserion was a logical fallacy.
Please do not attempt to change the subject again.

I was not changing the subject. I was trying to get you to see it
differently.

I think that the nub of our disagreement rests upon my (and many other
thinkers') opinion that "disbelief" does not equal "lack of belief".

Actually it does, since ''disbelief" means exactly the same thing as "lack
of belief".

That's just one of the meanings, but it's all it takes.
.

User: "Texan "
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 02:17:53 PM

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:08:04 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4fdtp3p35h8qo0g8p166g3mr89c21qiid6@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:54:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a88qp3dej7b3mjppn852asa2ebf181aijb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief
in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that
drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

He did not say it necessarily entailed anything.

I am getting sick of this:
He *did* say that the asserted fact that 12 yr olds become monks puts
a lie to the proposition that 12yr olds are too young to either
believe or disbelive.
You are 100% wrong with your claim "He did not say it necessarily
entailed anything."
He did.

That is as plain and clear as any proposition.
Yet is a logical fallacy for the reason(s) that I have outlined.

I called him/her on this fallacy, end of excersize.

He was merely suggesting
that the theist loon he was talking to had no basis for the absolute
assertions he was making.

That may be, I am not addressing that.
He forwarded a logical fallacy.
I was calling him "STOOPID" for that.
Excessively harsh?
Perhaps.
Wrong?
No.

I was rather surprised that you attacked him
instead of the person who was unambiguously making absolute claims based
on
zero support.

I have not even got to that level, merely addressing a plain logical
fallacy.
Any remarks upon which it was based can wait until the fallacy is
corrected.

I think it's pretty well proven that we tend to follow the culture
and beliefs that we are raised in as children. If your parents were
Baptist, most likely you will be baptist or at least a simular
protestant denomination of christianity. If you were born and raised
in america, most likely you will have american values to a greater or
lessor exstent. By age 10 or 12 I believe those basic values and
beliefs have been inprinted in young people. I would suspect that a
child born and raised in a deeply religious family USUALLY will retain
those values. Is this reflected even in their youth? most of the time
I would expect yes.
As part of the growing process of coarse young people question, they
deny, the explore differant values and beliefs. That's all part of
learning to be adults.
Can a 12 year old have deep religious convictions and beliefs? I say
absolutely. It doesn't matter if they are christian, Muslim or
Buddhist. I think that if you go to your favorite church you will find
at least a few that have accepted and believe deeply in their
religion.
.

User: "Texan "
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 02:09:06 PM

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:49:35 +1030, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:54:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a88qp3dej7b3mjppn852asa2ebf181aijb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief
in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that
drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

He did not say it necessarily entailed anything.

I am getting sick of this:
He *did* say that the asserted fact that 12 yr olds become monks puts
a lie to the proposition that 12yr olds are too young to either
believe or disbelive.
You are 100% wrong with your claim "He did not say it necessarily
entailed anything."
He did.

That is as plain and clear as any proposition.
Yet is a logical fallacy for the reason(s) that I have outlined.

I called him/her on this fallacy, end of excersize.

He was merely suggesting
that the theist loon he was talking to had no basis for the absolute
assertions he was making.

That may be, I am not addressing that.
He forwarded a logical fallacy.
I was calling him "STOOPID" for that.
Excessively harsh?
Perhaps.
Wrong?
No.

I was rather surprised that you attacked him
instead of the person who was unambiguously making absolute claims based on
zero support.

I have not even got to that level, merely addressing a plain logical
fallacy.
Any remarks upon which it was based can wait until the fallacy is
corrected.

Unfortunatly , to me, what this really shows is what happens when we
make assumptions and judgements about other cultures and beliefs based
on our limited experiances. American culture is obviously not
universal nor are american beliefs. FRankly "other" cultures are just
as satisfied with the way they live as we americans. The biggest
problem is when two cultures clash and one refuses to accept or
respect the other.
I could give numerous examples of this but we all already know them.
Don't forget however that YOUR beliefs and YOUR culture is not
neccesarily the "only" or for everyone, the "best" .
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	29 Jan 2008 09:40:13 PM

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:09:06 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:49:35 +1030, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:54:47 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a88qp3dej7b3mjppn852asa2ebf181aijb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:qhcjp319t3duor873oruf9sd0p3rog0sc0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief
in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that
drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

What exactly do you think he said that was stupid? Perhaps you were a
little too quick in your response.

He did not say it necessarily entailed anything.

I am getting sick of this:
He *did* say that the asserted fact that 12 yr olds become monks puts
a lie to the proposition that 12yr olds are too young to either
believe or disbelive.
You are 100% wrong with your claim "He did not say it necessarily
entailed anything."
He did.

That is as plain and clear as any proposition.
Yet is a logical fallacy for the reason(s) that I have outlined.

I called him/her on this fallacy, end of excersize.

He was merely suggesting
that the theist loon he was talking to had no basis for the absolute
assertions he was making.

That may be, I am not addressing that.
He forwarded a logical fallacy.
I was calling him "STOOPID" for that.
Excessively harsh?
Perhaps.
Wrong?
No.

I was rather surprised that you attacked him
instead of the person who was unambiguously making absolute claims based on
zero support.

I have not even got to that level, merely addressing a plain logical
fallacy.
Any remarks upon which it was based can wait until the fallacy is
corrected.

Agreed, but does not in any way respond to my objection to your use of
a plain logical fallacy.
.

User: "Don Martin"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	25 Jan 2008 08:32:50 AM

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:26:48 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

This one takes his handle from the state that gave us the born-again torturer in
the White House, suggesting the distinct possibility that he is, indeed, that
fucking STOOPID. They rather pride themselves on that quality down there.
aa #2278 If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
.

User: "thomas p."
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	27 Jan 2008 01:09:47 PM

"Don Martin" <drdonmartin@comcast.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:lmljp39q21qpoctup7odpum5lf4ic9q78n@4ax.com...

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:26:48 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:37:35 -0600, Texan < > wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Oh *****!
Are you really that fucking STOOPID?

Read the entire post and his response again. Read a couple more of his
posts. It just might be possible that you have misunderstood his position.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	20 Jan 2008 06:05:43 AM

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:06:57 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Michael" <newsuser3@orneveien.org> wrote

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

*****. My 9 year old nephew believes in a god - He gets that drilled
into his head everyday in Catholic school.

My daughter doesn't believe in a god.

Who are you to say otherwise?

Because he is a brainwashed cretin.
.

User: "Brian Westley"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	20 Jan 2008 09:12:32 PM

Michael <newsuser3@orneveien.org> writes:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:46:38 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:

Only as a private organization. When they sign a contract to
furnish a youth program that does not discriminate on the basis
of religion, using their discriminatory program is fraudulent.

At law what
matters is what is documented, and nothing on the applications requires
belief in God, and no religious merit badge is required to achieve Eagle
Scout rank.

There's plenty documented on how the BSA does not admit atheists,
such as testimony of BSA execs who set policy and state that
the BSA does not admit atheists. Their official legal website
states that atheists cannot join.

I'd better check on that real quick...
Nope, no religious merit badge required for Eagle and no place to put a
declaration of belief in God.
Yes, the BSA believes that morality emanates from a *belief* in God, that
belief in a supreme being helps people govern themselves; the lack of this
belief sometimes produces the out-of-control behavior we see on
alt.atheism. (I say sometimes, since some other thing can take the place
of god-belief and produce a sense of duty).

What produces a sense that reality conforms to my erroneous opinion?

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

And youth programs paid for with government money have no business
trying to teach any "duty to god"
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.

User: "Texan "
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	25 Jan 2008 03:34:34 AM

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:01:39 -0700, Michael <newsuser3@orneveien.org>
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:46:38 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:

Yes, these are "viewpoints" to use the terms the Supreme Court and other
courts have used. The Scouting program can have as many viewpoints as
they like without running afoul of antidiscrimination laws. At law what
matters is what is documented, and nothing on the applications requires
belief in God, and no religious merit badge is required to achieve Eagle
Scout rank.
I'd better check on that real quick...

Nope, no religious merit badge required for Eagle and no place to put a
declaration of belief in God.

Yes, the BSA believes that morality emanates from a *belief* in God, that
belief in a supreme being helps people govern themselves; the lack of this
belief sometimes produces the out-of-control behavior we see on
alt.atheism. (I say sometimes, since some other thing can take the place
of god-belief and produce a sense of duty).

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

What I find most enlightening in your beliefs is that non theists are
immoral and incapable of governing themselves. By your very statement
you are saying that billions of asians where BUddhism is the dominate
religion are both immoral and incapable of governing themselves.
Personaly I think the massive demonstrations in Myanmar where
thousands of Buddhists monks risked death at the hands of the military
dictators for their support of democracy and human rights puts the lie
to your beliefs.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: Boy Scouts attempting to defraud atheist taxpayers again	20 Jan 2008 06:27:18 AM

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:01:39 -0700, Michael <newsuser3@orneveien.org>
wrote:

Yes, the BSA believes that morality emanates from a *belief* in God, that

You and they give the lie to that.

belief in a supreme being helps people govern themselves; the lack of this
belief sometimes produces the out-of-control behavior we see on
alt.atheism. (I say sometimes, since some other thing can take the place
of god-belief and produce a sense of duty).

A bigoted liar as well as an idiot.
Why do you imagine a religious delusion is the only thing that makes
people moral, sociopath?
It obviously hasn't worked in your case (or the BSA's) unless you
imagine bigotry, nastiness and discrimination on religious grounds,
are moral.
Do these sociopaths not realise just how nasty their attempts to
justify their bigotry using their bigoted falsehoods, is?
I had a colleague who did this. He asked why I bought girl scout
cookies but didn't support the scouts, so I told him it was because
they discriminated against atheists.
So he told this atheist that atheists weren't allowed because we
didn't have the moral values to be scouts.
What is it about Christianity that engenders that kind of unthinking
nastiness?

A 12 year old Scout is too young to have either belief or disbelief in
God; he is however at an age where he can start to learn "duty."

Don't be so fucking stupid.
I was never taught to be theist. I learned that I was atheist when I
was eight, when a particularly stupid teacher discovered this and
tried to teach me her god using the same ridiculous questions we see
here nearly every day.
Care to explain why anybody should be discriminated against by being
called immoral for having the integrity not to swear a duty to the
deity of somebody else's religion, bigot?
And why they are considered moral if they are dishonest enough to do
that?
.

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