Religions > Atheism > BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Accelerator" |
| Date: |
16 Feb 2004 06:23:36 PM |
| Object: |
BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
Having once been an atheist myself.. I found the stated beliefs of the
atheists at www.atheists.org very interesting..:-)
Hmm. maybe they should change their name to..
The American Federation of Christian Atheists.. (G)
-
Going by what I read.. the atheists themselves are paradoxically
claiming to believe in God.. in their statement on their site's main
page (see definition of an atheist life-style below).
I know atheists like hard facts.. so here's a hard fact.
Throughout the scriptures the word "belief" is only being used in the
context of meaning.. to believe what is being said.
To be more specific.. it is used to mean.. believing in what the
prophets taught.
That is that.. we should treat each other as we would wish to be
treated ourselves . . and this is the basis for religious Law.. since
it was taught by Buddha.. Confucius.. Lao Tzu…. and our old friends…
the American Association of Atheists..:-))
I can find no evidence.. at all.. of it being used in the context of
believing in the existence of a supernatural being.
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural seems
to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to something that
I've missed.. ?
What's more.. the word "God" (which is a symbol.. not a noun).. is
often used together with the word "knowledge"… rather than "Believe".
Therefore.. one has "knowledge of God".. rather than believing.. or
not believing in.. God's existence.
One either has knowledge.. or one does not… belief doesn't come into
it.
NOW.. AS FOR THE AMERICAN ATHEISTS - IS THIS A NEW EMERGING RELIGION..
I ASK ?
I ask.. because.. on the main page they state their position quiet
clearly. . .
----------------------------------------
"Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as
follows.
"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An
Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now
-- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts
that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in
himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple
with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in
a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find
the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment."
I did e-mail them a couple of times.. pointing out this inconsistency
.. . and invited them to discuss but they declined. . .(sigh)
Well.. maybe someone would like to defend their position here..
Below . . point by point . . is a copy of one issue I raised with
them . .
----------------------------------------
1. "An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god."
Correspondingly . . the Bible says:
"You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of
your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself."
Leviticus 19:18
-
"All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must
likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets
mean."
Matthew 7:12
-----------------------------------------
2. "An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should
work now -- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy."
-
And.. Jesus taught..*
-
"The Kingdom of heaven is spread upon the surface of the Earth.. yet
men do not see it."
Jesus- Gospel of Thomas
-----------------------------------------
3. "An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, . . ."
However.. the prophets also saw the people's prayers as worthless
too...
"And when you spread out your palms, I hide my eyes from you. Even
though you make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed your
very hands have become filled."
Isaiah 1:15
-
"And as for you, do not pray in behalf of this people, and do not lift
up in their behalf an entreating cry or a prayer, for I shall not be
listening in the time of their calling out to me in regard to their
calamity.
Jeremiah 11:14
------------------------------------------
"...but that an atheist must find in himself the inner conviction and
strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy
it."
However.. the Bible teaches the need for us to have inner conviction
also...
"Why do you not judge also for yourselves what is righteous?"
Luke 12:57
-
"For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature
the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a
law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter
of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is
bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are
being accused or even excused."
Romans 2:12
--------------------------------------
4. "An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a
knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will
help to a life of fulfillment."
-
If so.. then.. it seems that the atheist is indeed.. deeply
religious.. since the purpose of religion is to give us the knowledge
to "link back" to know who we REALLY are.*
---------------------------------------
"Since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion..
examine yourself! - Examine yourself.. so that you may understand who
you are... And you will be called the one who knows themselves ! For
whoever has not know themself.. has known nothing. But whoever has
known themself.. has simultaneously achieved knowledge of the depth of
the ALL!
Jesus - Thomas the Contender
----------------------------------------
KNOW YOURSELF
"They have not known, and they do not understand; In darkness they
keep walking about; All the foundations of the earth are made to
totter.
I myself have said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most
High."
Psalms 82:5
-
So.. does this imply that by definition.. an atheist is someone who
doesn't believe in themselves.. ?
:-)
+
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
18 Feb 2004 06:20:48 AM |
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On 17 Feb 2004 12:51:38 -0800, (Accelerator) in
news message <8320133.0402171251.c9400d0@posting.google.com> wrote:
[-----]
Got to give the guy a chance though.. so show me evidence that
religion is concerned with the supernatural.. evidence that I can't
trash easily.. and I'll eat my words.. (G)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=supernatural
su·per·nat·u·ral adj.
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural
forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power;
miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.
If nothing else, I think definition #3 proves that those religions
that have a god are concerned with the supernatural. Of course, there
are naturalistic religions that do not have a deity, but those are not
included in the subject of this thread and can be ignored in this
discussion.
Liz #658 BAAWA
You can define anything you want, any way you want. Defining it as such
is not the same as offering real world evidence to support your
assertion. -- Woden
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| User: "B. Kildow" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do BelieveIn God |
17 Feb 2004 12:56:56 PM |
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Robibnikoff wrote:
In article <8320133.0402161623.28c415d0@posting.google.com>, Accelerator says...
Having once been an atheist myself..
What kind of mental illness caused you to change? Or was it a major head
trauma?
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
I'm thinking serious drugs.
BK
AA#1992
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
17 Feb 2004 12:19:06 AM |
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On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800 in alt.atheism
accelerator@zonnet.nl (Accelerator) wrote:
Having once been an atheist myself.. I found the stated beliefs of the
atheists at www.atheists.org very interesting..:-)
Hmm. maybe they should change their name to..
The American Federation of Christian Atheists.. (G)
[Snip interesting post]
The Bible is an anthology. Apart from the quotes you give, it
contains passages supporting the morals of barbarians: promoting
genocide, slavery, every kind of crime. In one passage the Lord
orders 'his' people, newly victorious in war, to kill all enemy
men, boys and women who were not virgins; keeping most of the
other women for themselves. A small percentage of them were
handed over to the priests as a kind of tax.
Of course, there are quite a few people who use the religion as
you do. Some Buddhists even call themselves atheists.
Going by what I read.. the atheists themselves are paradoxically
claiming to believe in God..
But not 'God' as the word is most often used in the west. Not the
ghastly boring abstraction invented by the theologians - which is
about as far removed from human experience as it is possible to
be.
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "W.Syme" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
17 Feb 2004 12:13:10 AM |
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:19:06 +0000, Martin Thomas
<mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote:
Of course, there are quite a few people who use the religion as
you do. Some Buddhists even call themselves atheists.
AFAIK, Buddhism is a-theistical as in they don't have any gods. But
their reincarnation and nirvana doctrines are as loony as the xtians'.
--
==I am an atheist==
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
17 Feb 2004 12:37:04 AM |
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:13:10 GMT in alt.atheism
W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:19:06 +0000, Martin Thomas
<mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote:
Of course, there are quite a few people who use the religion as
you do. Some Buddhists even call themselves atheists.
AFAIK, Buddhism is a-theistical as in they don't have any gods. But
their reincarnation and nirvana doctrines are as loony as the xtians'.
Some do not take the idea of reincarnation literally.
And nirvana? It is either real in the experience of some people
or it isn't.
What do you find loony about it?
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "W.Syme" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
17 Feb 2004 12:28:18 AM |
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:37:04 +0000, Martin Thomas
<mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote:
What do you find loony about it?
The "you'll get another life when you're dead" part.
--
==I am an atheist==
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
17 Feb 2004 02:00:50 AM |
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:28:18 GMT in alt.atheism
W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:37:04 +0000, Martin Thomas
<mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote:
What do you find loony about it?
The "you'll get another life when you're dead" part.
I don't call myself a buddhist because most buddhists believe
things which I don't.
The idea that Heaven or Nirvana happens after death is one of
those things. Actually, many accounts have the Buddha declaring
that he did not look forward to any afterlife. And may Zen
masters declared that they did not care whether there was an
afterlife or not. Life is now.
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "W.Syme" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
16 Feb 2004 06:20:30 PM |
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On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural seems
to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to something that
I've missed.. ?
You might have missed all the miracles in the bible. Maybe you should
read it.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
16 Feb 2004 07:01:09 PM |
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W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:509bc218393e4992ddf98fc0dc9f91db@news.teranews.com:
On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural seems
to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to something that
I've missed.. ?
You might have missed all the miracles in the bible. Maybe you should
read it.
Yeah, read it, carefully and critically and thoroughly and see if you
still believe. Isn't it amazing how much influence a work of fiction
like that has on people even in this day and age?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "W.Syme" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
16 Feb 2004 07:03:19 PM |
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:01:09 -0000, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:509bc218393e4992ddf98fc0dc9f91db@news.teranews.com:
On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural seems
to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to something that
I've missed.. ?
You might have missed all the miracles in the bible. Maybe you should
read it.
Yeah, read it, carefully and critically and thoroughly and see if you
still believe. Isn't it amazing how much influence a work of fiction
like that has on people even in this day and age?
According to Russel, it helps your religion/irrational movement if its
holy books are as vague and boring as possible, so people can project
their own fantasies into it. This goes for the bible, to quran and
Das Kapital. Many philosophers who wrote more clearly and made more
sense, are nowhere as popular as those ever were.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
16 Feb 2004 07:33:06 PM |
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W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:084d7e805ef1b8c42ea53dba42daf79b@news.teranews.com:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:01:09 -0000, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:509bc218393e4992ddf98fc0dc9f91db@news.teranews.com:
On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural seems
to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to something that
I've missed.. ?
You might have missed all the miracles in the bible. Maybe you should
read it.
Yeah, read it, carefully and critically and thoroughly and see if you
still believe. Isn't it amazing how much influence a work of fiction
like that has on people even in this day and age?
According to Russel, it helps your religion/irrational movement if its
holy books are as vague and boring as possible, so people can project
their own fantasies into it. This goes for the bible, to quran and
Das Kapital. Many philosophers who wrote more clearly and made more
sense, are nowhere as popular as those ever were.
Oh, yes, "vague" gives everyone the opportunity to interpret it according
to their own desires.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Rudy" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
17 Feb 2004 02:07:46 PM |
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Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9491CC23954AAwodencharternet@216.168.3.44>...
W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:509bc218393e4992ddf98fc0dc9f91db@news.teranews.com:
On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural seems
to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to something that
I've missed.. ?
You might have missed all the miracles in the bible. Maybe you should
read it.
Yeah, read it, carefully and critically and thoroughly and see if you
still believe. Isn't it amazing how much influence a work of fiction
like that has on people even in this day and age?
Ever read Aesop's Fables. Most definately a work of fiction, most
definately intended to influence moral behaviour. As long as you
realize the intent and don't really believe for instance, that foxes
speak to ravens, its great stuff.
.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
17 Feb 2004 03:13:17 PM |
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(Rudy) wrote in
news:61ed0d0b.0402171207.2459cf93@posting.google.com:
Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:<Xns9491CC23954AAwodencharternet@216.168.3.44>...
W.Syme <W.Syme.killspam@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:509bc218393e4992ddf98fc0dc9f91db@news.teranews.com:
On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural
seems to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to
something that I've missed.. ?
You might have missed all the miracles in the bible. Maybe you
should read it.
Yeah, read it, carefully and critically and thoroughly and see if you
still believe. Isn't it amazing how much influence a work of fiction
like that has on people even in this day and age?
Ever read Aesop's Fables. Most definately a work of fiction, most
definately intended to influence moral behaviour. As long as you
realize the intent and don't really believe for instance, that foxes
speak to ravens, its great stuff.
I agree. However, my remark was pointed more toward those who think the
bible is real and how this delusion affects all of us.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
16 Feb 2004 07:20:43 PM |
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On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
Having once been an atheist myself.
So why did you decide to abandon rationality in favor of superstition?
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
16 Feb 2004 07:48:34 PM |
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On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
Having once been an atheist myself..
Really?
Its possible - but in my personal experience so many christians lie
about this for evangelical purposes.
Can you describe what you used to believe about God and other gods?
I found the stated beliefs of the
atheists at www.atheists.org very interesting..:-)
Hmm. maybe they should change their name to..
The American Federation of Christian Atheists.. (G)
You do realize that they don't speak for everyone who calls themselves
atheist don't you?
Specifically they do not speak for me.
Going by what I read.. the atheists themselves are paradoxically
claiming to believe in God.. in their statement on their site's main
page (see definition of an atheist life-style below).
Or perhaps you misunderstand what you read?
I know atheists like hard facts.. so here's a hard fact.
Throughout the scriptures the word "belief" is only being used in the
context of meaning.. to believe what is being said.
To be more specific.. it is used to mean.. believing in what the
prophets taught.
So what?
Why is this significant?
That is that.. we should treat each other as we would wish to be
treated ourselves . . and this is the basis for religious Law.. since
it was taught by Buddha.. Confucius.. Lao Tzu…. and our old friends…
the American Association of Atheists..:-))
I can find no evidence.. at all.. of it being used in the context of
believing in the existence of a supernatural being.
So what?
Why is this significant?
Isn't it simply the case that the Bible takes for granted the belief
in the supernatural ?
The very idea that religion is concerned with the supernatural seems
to be a fiction.. or can somebody draw my attention to something that
I've missed.. ?
Sure let me help.
Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the
surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the
waters.
And so on...
What's more.. the word "God" (which is a symbol.. not a noun).. is
often used together with the word "knowledge"… rather than "Believe".
Therefore.. one has "knowledge of God".. rather than believing.. or
not believing in.. God's existence.
Just because the words "knowledge of God" appear in a book doesn't
mean that such a thing exists.
The words "Gandalf" and "Wizard" also apear together in a book - it
doesn't mean there actually is a Wizard called Gandalf.
I believe (honestly and sincerely) that "Knowledge of God" is as real
as fire breathing dragons.
One either has knowledge.. or one does not
Agreed.
belief doesn't come into
it.
Disagree.
Knowledge is a proper subset of belief.
That is If you know something you of necessity believe it.
Likewise if you own a cat then you of necessity own an animal.
Knowledge can be defined as "Justified true belief".
NOW.. AS FOR THE AMERICAN ATHEISTS - IS THIS A NEW EMERGING RELIGION..
I ASK ?
They certainly have some aspects of a religion.
A certain evangelical fervor which I dislike, for example.
I ask.. because.. on the main page they state their position quiet
clearly. . .
----------------------------------------
"Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as
follows.
"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An
Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now
-- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts
that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in
himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple
with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in
a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find
the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment."
I did e-mail them a couple of times.. pointing out this inconsistency
. . and invited them to discuss but they declined. . .(sigh)
Well.. maybe someone would like to defend their position here..
No - I will defend my own rather than someone elses.
Below . . point by point . . is a copy of one issue I raised with
them . .
<Snip>
All you seem to do is quote the bible - how is this thought to be
meaningfull/significant to the atheists?
I am truly mystified.
----------------------------------------
KNOW YOURSELF
"They have not known, and they do not understand; In darkness they
keep walking about; All the foundations of the earth are made to
totter.
I myself have said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most
High."
Psalms 82:5
-
So.. does this imply that by definition.. an atheist is someone who
doesn't believe in themselves.. ?
No.
Although I cannot speak for them I presume the atheists at American
Atheists dont think the Bible verses are necessarilly true or
applicable to them.
Just a wild guess.
8-)
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: BREAKING NEWS - Hard Evidence That Atheists REALLY Do Believe In God |
16 Feb 2004 07:19:55 PM |
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On 16 Feb 2004 16:23:36 -0800, (Accelerator)
wrote:
Throughout the scriptures the word "belief" is only being used in the
context of meaning.. to believe what is being said.
Rubbish. The whole Gospel of John uses it otherwise, for a start.
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