| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
18 May 2005 04:41:42 PM |
| Object: |
Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
Ask, and you will receive. -- John 16:24.
If there is one promise of God that is guaranteed to draw a skeptical
reaction, it's this one. After all, what are we to make of the times
that we have asked, and not received? A loved one that we had been
praying for dies. A family member with an addiction never breaks free.
A broken relationship remains unhealed. If this promise of Jesus is
true, why are our prayers not being answered?
The truth is, we don't know. Part of the mystery of God's promises is
that every one of them is completely true, even if we sometimes can't
explain how. In the case of seemingly unanswered prayers, we need to
trust in faith that our Father in heaven knows what he is doing, and
that he loves and cares for us as well as for the person we are praying
for. Rather than in giving up in anger and despair, we can summon our
faith and proclaim: "Lord, I have no idea what you are doing, but I
trust that you are directing all things in this situation for your
good."
The parable of the persistent widow (Luke 18:1-8) can offer us hope in
these times. This widow just kept going back to the judge over and
over, until finally she wore him down. Open a thesaurus and look up
"persistent," and you'll find some interesting synonyms: demanding,
relentless, constant, even pushy. These are the qualities that Jesus
commended in the widow -- qualities that he is asking us to adopt when
it comes to praying for others.
Let's take Jesus at his word today. Do you have a prayer that doesn't
seem to be getting answered? Keep on storming heaven with relentless,
demanding, constant, pushy prayers. Don't worry about offending God.
He knows what's in your heart, and he never turns away anyone who comes
to him in humility. So never stop asking your Father in heaven to
grant your requests. Keep praying, keep trusting, and whatever
happens, do not doubt God's promises for one second -- even when all
hope seems lost.
"Lord Jesus, I believe that you are utterly true to every promise
you've ever made. Even though my human mind cannot always see it, I
trust that you are working for good in every situation. I trust that
those I am praying for will receive your goodness and mercy."
Acts 18: 23-28
Psalm 47: 2-3, 8-10
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
20 May 2005 10:43:09 PM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116579563.169144.254620@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
If one has never had a prayer answered, and can find no reliable evidence
that anyone anywhere has ever had a prayer answered, then the statement is
understandable.
All the best,
*****.
_________________________________________
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
21 May 2005 10:26:23 AM |
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Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how. The next time you suddenly realise you've just driven
through a speed-camera, I think you'd have to be fairly strange not to
pray it had no film in it; and even stranger to consider a positive
answer unfortunate.
but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
If one has never had a prayer answered, and can find no reliable
evidence
that anyone anywhere has ever had a prayer answered, then the
statement is
understandable.
Still fallacious, tho. Perhaps. But I notice that Christians think
the God of the Christians does. Those who don't follow him can't
complain much if they ask him for things and get the finger, surely?
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
22 May 2005 12:59:34 PM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is it?
The next time you suddenly realise you've just driven
through a speed-camera, I think you'd have to be fairly strange not to
pray it had no film in it;
"Please, God, let me break the law with impunity." People should pray for
that? Or did you just think up a shitty example?
and even stranger to consider a positive
answer unfortunate.
but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
If one has never had a prayer answered, and can find no reliable
evidence
that anyone anywhere has ever had a prayer answered, then the
statement is
understandable.
Still fallacious, tho. Perhaps.
If your standard is mathematical proof, but only mathematicians and trolls
demand that sort of proof.
But I notice that Christians think
the God of the Christians does.
I notice that unmedicated psychotics think God is talking to them. I notice
that suicide bombers think that God has told them there's 80 tasty virgins
waiting for them in the next world. I notice lots of funny things.
Those who don't follow him can't
complain much if they ask him for things and get the finger, surely?
If that's the way He is then ***** 'im. Though I must say, it makes perfect
sense that your God is a petulant little *****.
All the best,
Eat me.
_________________________________________
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
25 May 2005 11:25:19 AM |
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Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is it?
Well, of course I don't know you. Maybe you are the sort of person who
never gets invited to parties. In that case, of course, buying a party
outfit would indeed be a waste of time. Better, as you say, to sit at
home and sulk. <grin>
[Various rather silly excuses snipped]
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
25 May 2005 11:43:16 PM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1117038319.139456.294100@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to
waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is
it?
Well, of course I don't know you. Maybe you are the sort of person who
never gets invited to parties. In that case, of course, buying a party
outfit would indeed be a waste of time. Better, as you say, to sit at
home and sulk. <grin>
I accept your surrender.
[Various rather silly excuses snipped]
Waving of the white flag noted. Rest assured, I won't invent some *****
designation ("enemy combatant" or whatever) for you so that I can torture
you with impunity, I'll actually treat you humanely within accepted
international norms.
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
26 May 2005 11:15:41 AM |
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Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1117038319.139456.294100@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to
waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is
it?
Well, of course I don't know you. Maybe you are the sort of person who
never gets invited to parties. In that case, of course, buying a party
outfit would indeed be a waste of time. Better, as you say, to sit at
home and sulk. <grin>
I accept your surrender.
[Various rather silly excuses snipped]
Waving of the white flag noted. Rest assured, I won't invent some *****
designation ("enemy combatant" or whatever) for you so that I can torture
you with impunity, I'll actually treat you humanely within accepted
international norms.
Admission of defeat noted.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
26 May 2005 08:44:04 PM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1117038319.139456.294100@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to
waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is
it?
Well, of course I don't know you. Maybe you are the sort of person who
never gets invited to parties. In that case, of course, buying a party
outfit would indeed be a waste of time. Better, as you say, to sit at
home and sulk. <grin>
I accept your surrender.
[Various rather silly excuses snipped]
Waving of the white flag noted. Rest assured, I won't invent some *****
designation ("enemy combatant" or whatever) for you so that I can torture
you with impunity, I'll actually treat you humanely within accepted
international norms.
Admission of defeat noted.
I saw no admission of anything only another human being taking a humanistic
approach.
I wonder why it bothers religionists so much when they see evidence that those
outside of their religion are normal decent human beings? I think they would be
happier if we were all 'devils'. The latter, of course, does not exist, any
more than gods exist.
Bob
Humanist Brit.
Hong Kong
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his
creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short,
who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that
the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls
harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." -
[Albert Einstein]
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
27 May 2005 05:18:27 PM |
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bob young wrote:
I wonder why it bothers religionists so much when they see evidence that those
outside of their religion are normal decent human beings?
Leaving aside the projection, it's an interesting hypothesis; but since
followers of your religious position online don't fit into that
category, it's hard to say how one would respond to them if they did.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
27 May 2005 08:09:33 PM |
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wrote:
bob young wrote:
I wonder why it bothers religionists so much when they see evidence that
those outside of their religion are normal decent human beings?
Leaving aside the projection, it's an interesting hypothesis; but since
followers of your religious position online don't fit into that
category, it's hard to say how one would respond to them if they did.
So lacking any decent argument, Roger sprayed
slime and oozed back to his den.
***********************************************************
The Failure of Christianity in America
W. C . Barwell 3-8-05
***********************************************************
Since Nixon, this nation has rapidly moved to the far right,
taken there mainly by christian right wingers who have fully
supported the GOP as it has moved right to gain support of
christian zealots and conservatives. This started when Nixon
played the racist Southern Strategy card building on civil
rights era resentments by far right Southerners.
So we now have had a essentially a christian GOP government
for 30 years.
Under Nixon:
Christian Americans supported incompetent and corrupt
Vietnamese politicians. And a senseless war in Vietnam
that accomplished nothing.
Nixon lied about having a secret plan to end the war.
supported nixons having instigated awful and murderous
policies as the Phoenix program.
Supported the secret bombings in Cambodia that killed
hundreds of thousands of innocent Cambodians.
Winked at the invasion of East Timur and parts of New
Guinea by our allies, the Indonesions.
The Indonesioans killed 1/4 of the Timurese over several
decades, mass murder, genocide. 2 million dead.
Winked at the Greek far right Junta that overthrew the
Greek government.
Supported the murderous far right Brazilian generals who
overthrew that democratically elected government.
Supported the mass murdering Argentinian government and
their terroristic "Dirty War" of torture, mass murder
and disappearances.
Supported the murderous Pinochet of Chile and overthrow
of yet another democratically elected goverment.
No Christians respected life here. Or freedom. But supported
Nixon heartily despite the horrors we commited in Vietnam
and Cambodia and Chile and winked at support for others
mentioned above.
Reagan.
Reagan lead the GOP in support for military aid to the
genocidal Rios Montt of Guatemala, who practiced wholesale
torture, rape and genocide on the Mayan Indians of Guatemala.
Reagan and the GOP supported the mass murdering ex-Somoza
Guards of Nicaragua.
Reagan and the GOP supported Saddam Hussein of Iraq.
Reagan and the GOP supported the murderous Robert
D'Aubisson of El Salavador, a known far right death
squad leader.
The El Salvadoran government was involved in numerous
murders, and massacres, such as the killing of 400
villagers at a small village called El Mezote, most
of them young women and children.
Reagan and the GOP supported Noriega of Panama.
Reagan and the GOP happily supported Pol Pot's claim
to be the rightful government of Cambodia despite the
genocide committed by the insane Pol Pot's Khmer Regime.
Reagan and the GOP supported a number of murdering
far right extremist guerrilla movements in Africa
including the genocidal Frelimo in Mozambique.
Reagan fought sanctions to end apartheid in South africa.
The Christian and religous right heavily supported Reagan
and the GOP despite numerous examples of such evils as
listed above.The leader of the religous right never cared
nor complained, neither did the religous leaders of the
main stream christian denominations.
There was and is no respect for life in American
christianity as these wholesale and repeat failures of
America christianity collectively over 20 years shows.
Then we had Bush.
Bush continued support for the evil dictators above,
including Pinochet, Pol Pot and others. However,
Saddam screwed us and invaded Iraq, mainly because
Bush screwed up and did not warn him to not do so.
Bush did not act in case of genocide my Jugoslavia's
Milosevic, and Bush and the GOP's loud and obnoxious
footdragging here allowed Milosevic to kill
hundreds of thousands with near impunity.
The leaders of the GOP, House and Senate, and religous
leaders of the right and mainstream denominations never
cared about any of this.
In the Desert Storm war, Bush allowed the US air
force to bomb Iraq's water and sewer systems.
A war crime.
They placed sanctions on Iraq that made it impossible
to keep their water supplies safe resulting in numerous
deaths that eventually would total over 2 million dead
Iraqi civilians, mostly children.
Our government coldly calculated that these sanctions would
indeed would cause mass epidemics and mass death, and did
it anyway.
Thomas Nagy, a California colege professor used the FOIA
statutes to obtain these documents that were published
in September 2001 in the Progressive Magazine.
http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
No Christian leaders of either far right or mainstream
cared nor brought Bush and the GOP leadership of House
and Senate to task for this genocide of innocents.
Clinton:
Under Clinton this policy continued. Again, Christians did
not care. All Christians cared about was Clintons
don't-ask-don't-tell gays in military policy and Clinton's
sex life and Whitewater.
$47 million spent investigating whitewater while the Christian
right roared with naked hate. Money spent investigation mass
murder in Iraq caused by our purposeful by our sanctions?
$0.
Roars of disaprovable from Christian America over these mass
murders?
None.
What has 30 years or right winged GOP government and right
winger christianity got us? Mass murder, genocide,
Nothing but callousness, disregard for human life,
mass moral failure of religion, Christianity and
the american right.
Not once did religous christian Americans, either
leadership or rank and file ever find any of these
evils unacceptable or punish any who supported any
of this.
Most GOP House and Senate members were people who
did these things claimed to be christians. Not a one
cares, not a christian cares they did not care or act.
30 years of failure. 30 years of support for
far right genocidal bastards, mass murderers,
and evil.
Total christian failure.
Total lack of any real morality at all
in American christianity.
Christians posture as moral, American christians have
a very bad track records when it comes to morality, they
will happily support any genocdial monster as long as he's
a right winger, and right winger politicians support
that monster no matter how murderous or genocidal he
and his evil regime is.
(End)
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
27 May 2005 09:25:02 PM |
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wrote:
bob young wrote:
I wonder why it bothers religionists so much when they see evidence that those
outside of their religion are normal decent human beings?
Leaving aside the projection, it's an interesting hypothesis; but since
followers of your religious position online don't fit into that
category, it's hard to say how one would respond to them if they did.
It would be a sad day if we were ever to judge people by what they write on line.
The Internet attracts the weirdest of folk plus others who are here simply for
debate on subjects that interest them.
Also some of the foulest insults have been hurled by some religionists who find
that the belief they were brought up to was, for the first time in their lives,
seriously challenged by someone asking a straight forward question to which they
have no logical answers.
In my fathers time no religionist was challenged other than at Speakers Corner in
London where both theists and atheists would stand on a wooden box to address the
assembled crowds. I wonder if they still do it, or maybe they too have fallen
victim of the Internet.
Cheers
Bob Young
humanist Brit.
Hong Kong
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
26 May 2005 04:53:36 PM |
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On 26 May 2005 09:15:41 -0700, wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
I accept your surrender.
[Various rather silly excuses snipped]
Waving of the white flag noted. Rest assured, I won't invent some *****
designation ("enemy combatant" or whatever) for you so that I can torture
you with impunity, I'll actually treat you humanely within accepted
international norms.
Admission of defeat noted.
Is that the best you have got, "I'm not, but you are"?
It wasn't even funny. You are such a disappointment.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling, Like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
25 May 2005 04:53:40 PM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to
waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is
it?
Well, of course I don't know you. Maybe you are the sort of person who
never gets invited to parties. In that case, of course, buying a party
outfit would indeed be a waste of time. Better, as you say, to sit at
home and sulk. <grin>
So many bitter little non-answers from Roger.
Miracles, where are all those ********************************************
Mark 11:23-4
For verily I say this unto you, That
whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed, and be thou cast
into the sea; and shall not doubt
in his heart, but shall believe that
those things which he saith shall
come to pass; he shall have whatsoever
he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things
soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe
ye recieve them and ye shall have them.
Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, that if two
of you shall agree on earth as
touching anything that they shall
ask, it shall be done for them of
my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered
in my name, there I am in the midst
of them.
Matthew 21:22
And all things,whatsoever ye shall ask
in prayer, believeing, ye shall recieve.
John 14:12-14
12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall
he do;because I go unto my Father.
13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,
that will I do, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son.
14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it.
***********************************************
promised miracles Roger.
Come on, show us one.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
26 May 2005 12:34:05 AM |
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wcb wrote:
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to
waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is
it?
Well, of course I don't know you. Maybe you are the sort of person who
never gets invited to parties. In that case, of course, buying a party
outfit would indeed be a waste of time. Better, as you say, to sit at
home and sulk. <grin>
So many bitter little non-answers from Roger.
Miracles, where are all those ********************************************
Mark 11:23-4
For verily I say this unto you, That
whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed, and be thou cast
into the sea; and shall not doubt
in his heart, but shall believe that
those things which he saith shall
come to pass; he shall have whatsoever
he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things
soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe
ye recieve them and ye shall have them.
Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, that if two
of you shall agree on earth as
touching anything that they shall
ask, it shall be done for them of
my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered
in my name, there I am in the midst
of them.
Matthew 21:22
And all things,whatsoever ye shall ask
in prayer, believeing, ye shall recieve.
John 14:12-14
12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall
he do;because I go unto my Father.
13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,
that will I do, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son.
14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it.
***********************************************
promised miracles Roger.
Come on, show us one.
If he does I can guarantee you one thing.
It will be secondhand
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
26 May 2005 12:32:09 AM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116689183.655267.168580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how.
Pretty simple, really. I'm fortunate that I don't feel compelled to waste
my time on fruitless activities. That's not so hard to comprehend, is it?
Well, of course I don't know you. Maybe you are the sort of person who
never gets invited to parties. In that case, of course, buying a party
outfit would indeed be a waste of time. Better, as you say, to sit at
home and sulk. <grin>
Your 'grin' is totally misplaced and insidious.
I would not expect you to know that most Homo Sapiens have an inbuilt desire
for group activity going right back to the awful Stone Age days when we had to
follow our group leader as best we could and help him to kill an animal for
food. Without this we did not eat.
From this deeply ingrained need to be 'a member of a powerful group' sprung the
thousands of collective beliefs designed to provide more unity, safety and with
a little stretch of the imagination, answer the myriad of things that early man
failed to understand [most of these have since been solved by the scientific
process, without which we would still be asking our gods to deal with them!]
There are always exceptions to the general rule so some of us are 'loners' for
our own very personal reasons.
Snide remarks are a sure sign of a failure to provide cogent reasoning. Ask
your god, he might confirm what I just said. He Might.
[Various rather silly excuses snipped]
All the best,
Your insincerity is breathtaking. Is this what you learn at prayer meetings?
Bob
Humanist Brit.
Hong Kong
If the man doesn't believe as we do, we say he is a crank, and that settles it.
I mean, it does nowadays, because now we can't burn him.
[Mark Twain]
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
21 May 2005 09:07:03 PM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how. The next time you suddenly realise you've just driven
through a speed-camera, I think you'd have to be fairly strange not to
pray it had no film in it; and even stranger to consider a positive
answer unfortunate.
but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
If one has never had a prayer answered, and can find no reliable
evidence
that anyone anywhere has ever had a prayer answered, then the
statement is
understandable.
Still fallacious, tho. Perhaps. But I notice that Christians think
the God of the Christians does. Those who don't follow him can't
complain much if they ask him for things and get the finger, surely?
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Friend of mine did a marathon run and finished up seriously ill, the
doctors failed to determine exactly the problem. He was in a coma for
part of the time in the Canossa hospital.
He told me after he recovered that he woke up from the coma around
midnight and found five nuns praying on their knees around his bed.
He thaught he had died and almost had a heart attack!
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
21 May 2005 07:04:34 PM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you,
Or fortunate, depending on one's perspective.
Not sure how. The next time you suddenly realise you've just driven
through a speed-camera, I think you'd have to be fairly strange not to
pray it had no film in it; and even stranger to consider a positive
answer unfortunate.
Do you understand how stupid this statement really is?
Still fallacious, tho. Perhaps. But I notice that Christians think
the God of the Christians does. Those who don't follow him can't
complain much if they ask him for things and get the finger, surely?
Those who do follow him get the finger all the time.
And still don't get it.
"We prayed for aunt Edna and she got better. Praise the Lord!"
"We prayed for Uncle Jim and he died. The Lord giveth and
the Lord taketh away. Mysterious are the ways of the Lord!".
********************************************
Mark 11:23-4
For verily I say this unto you, That
whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed, and be thou cast
into the sea; and shall not doubt
in his heart, but shall believe that
those things which he saith shall
come to pass; he shall have whatsoever
he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things
soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe
ye recieve them and ye shall have them.
Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, that if two
of you shall agree on earth as
touching anything that they shall
ask, it shall be done for them of
my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered
in my name, there I am in the midst
of them.
Matthew 21:22
And all things,whatsoever ye shall ask
in prayer, believeing, ye shall recieve.
John 14:12-14
12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall
he do;because I go unto my Father.
13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,
that will I do, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son.
14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it.
***********************************************
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
21 May 2005 07:34:46 PM |
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It's almost like election-propaganda.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
22 May 2005 07:25:56 AM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
It's almost like election-propaganda.
Yes. Roger is a simple minded circus barker.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
22 May 2005 06:55:15 AM |
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On 21 May 2005 08:26:23 -0700, wrote:
Not sure how. The next time you suddenly realise you've just driven
through a speed-camera, I think you'd have to be fairly strange not to
pray it had no film in it;
Then there are a lot of strange people in the world.
Or do you count a passing, comment on the probability of there being no film, a
prayer?
and even stranger to consider a positive
answer unfortunate.
What positive answer?
If you are going to assert that prayer, is a "positive" answer, you must first
provide us with solid evidence of the efficacy of prayer.
but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
If one has never had a prayer answered, and can find no reliable
evidence
that anyone anywhere has ever had a prayer answered, then the
statement is
understandable.
Still fallacious, tho. Perhaps. But I notice that Christians think
the God of the Christians does. Those who don't follow him can't
complain much if they ask him for things and get the finger, surely?
Straw man. What force it is that answers prayers, is irrelevant.
As non believers do not pray, it can only be the "followers" who's prayers go
unanswered.
As an ex-believer, I can assure you that my small prayer was never answered.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling, Like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
20 May 2005 04:19:46 AM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
Of course not. The rest are people answering their own prayers.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
20 May 2005 09:13:50 AM |
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DanielSan wrote:
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
Of course not. The rest are people answering their own prayers.
"We prayed for aunt Edna and she got better! Praise the Lord!"
"We prayed for Uncle Ed and he died anyway. The Lord giveth and
the Lord taketh away."
"When I was young, I prayed and prayed for a bicycle but I
never got one. Then I realized, that is not how it works.
So I stole a bicycle and prayed for forgivness."
- Emo Phillips.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
20 May 2005 05:24:02 AM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
All the best,
Roger Pearse
A bit like an airline captain on the PA to his pasengers "This type of
aircraft always crashes immeditely following take off but if you pray I
feel pretty sure everything will be alright"!
what lunacy!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
21 May 2005 10:32:12 AM |
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bob young wrote:
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the
original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
A bit like an airline captain on the PA to his pasengers "This type
of
aircraft always crashes immeditely following take off but if you pray
I
feel pretty sure everything will be alright"!
what lunacy!
None of this is a logical response to my comment, and involves the
strawman fallacy. Nor is it clear why not praying in that situation is
illogical. If I were trapped in such a craft, I would certainly not
fold my hands and pronounce in smug tones that "prayer doesn't work".
Only a fool would.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
21 May 2005 09:02:07 PM |
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wrote:
bob young wrote:
wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the
original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
A bit like an airline captain on the PA to his pasengers "This type
of
aircraft always crashes immeditely following take off but if you pray
I
feel pretty sure everything will be alright"!
what lunacy!
None of this is a logical response to my comment, and involves the
strawman fallacy. Nor is it clear why not praying in that situation is
illogical. If I were trapped in such a craft, I would certainly not
fold my hands and pronounce in smug tones that "prayer doesn't work".
Only a fool would.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
The best approach to prayer is to analyze it like one would analyze
anything else.
Praying is simply another word for 'hoping' something the vast majority of
humans do, regardles of whether they have a personal god or not.
Here once a year the Chinese hang 'hope' messages on a tree in little red
envelopes. It is just nearby a temple and their wishes are supposed to
come true. There are similar 'fads' all over the world, it is simply
'human nature'.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
21 May 2005 07:05:38 PM |
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wrote:
bob young wrote:
wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the
original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
A bit like an airline captain on the PA to his pasengers "This type
of
aircraft always crashes immeditely following take off but if you pray
I
feel pretty sure everything will be alright"!
what lunacy!
None of this is a logical response to my comment, and involves the
strawman fallacy. Nor is it clear why not praying in that situation is
illogical. If I were trapped in such a craft, I would certainly not
fold my hands and pronounce in smug tones that "prayer doesn't work".
Only a fool would.
No Atheist would. But you knew that.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
22 May 2005 06:34:03 AM |
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On 21 May 2005 08:32:12 -0700, wrote:
bob young wrote:
wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the
original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
A bit like an airline captain on the PA to his pasengers "This type
of
aircraft always crashes immeditely following take off but if you pray
I
feel pretty sure everything will be alright"!
what lunacy!
None of this is a logical response to my comment,
Hardly surprising, considering that your "comment" was not logical.
Nor is it clear why not praying in that situation is
illogical.
He never said it was.
In fact, he is stating that it is *praying, which is illogical.
You assert that prayers are answered.
Offer some objective evidence in support of your assertion, because without
objective evidence, we are forced to the logical conclusion that there are no
answered prayers, and nothing to answer them.
Personal warm fuzzies, the retelling of other's subjective experience, and
arguments from incredulity, are not evidence.
If I were trapped in such a craft, I would certainly not
fold my hands and pronounce in smug tones that "prayer doesn't work".
Only a fool would.
I agree. An atheist would have been off that plane, before the captain had
finished talking.
You want to rely on magic, to get you there, that is fine: We will wait for a
flight that relies on tried and tested technology, to keep it in the air, and a
considerably less superstitious pilot, to fly it.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling, Like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
20 May 2005 09:10:19 AM |
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wrote:
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1116532010.969262.229790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered.
I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing,
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
Not big ones as claimed.
********************************************
Mark 11:23-4
For verily I say this unto you, That
whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed, and be thou cast
into the sea; and shall not doubt
in his heart, but shall believe that
those things which he saith shall
come to pass; he shall have whatsoever
he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things
soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe
ye recieve them and ye shall have them.
Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, that if two
of you shall agree on earth as
touching anything that they shall
ask, it shall be done for them of
my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered
in my name, there I am in the midst
of them.
Matthew 21:22
And all things,whatsoever ye shall ask
in prayer, believeing, ye shall recieve.
John 14:12-14
12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall
he do;because I go unto my Father.
13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,
that will I do, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son.
14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it.
***********************************************
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Jos Flachs no x, please" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
20 May 2005 06:35:17 PM |
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On 20 May 2005 01:59:23 -0700, wrote:
Speaking for myself, I know with 100% certainty that none of my
prayers have
ever been answered.
Well, that is unfortunate for you, but it hardly justifies the original
sweeping statement that *no* prayers are answered, does it?
Couldn't agree more with you. There are plenty of documents that
clearly show Zeus, Jupiter and other gods answered prayers.
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
19 May 2005 03:05:48 PM |
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wrote:
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered. There is no mystery
about
it beyond why anybody would be silly enough to argue that they are
answered in the face of reality by calling it a mystery.
<chuckle>
I'm glad I'm not an atheist; I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing, and ignorant of things
that
every schoolboy knows.
It sounds more like you're afraid of your own ignorance and scared of
the unknown. That isn't something to chuckle about. You won't be able
to contribute much to humanity until you overcome it, but I assure you
that if you can you'll be able to witness the beauty of the natural
world.
When you don't have a god to attribute things to, everything seems that
much more important.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Breaking The Chains Of Atheism. |
20 May 2005 12:56:03 AM |
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James wrote:
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
thomas p wrote:
The truth is that prayers are not answered. There is no mystery
about
it beyond why anybody would be silly enough to argue that they are
answered in the face of reality by calling it a mystery.
<chuckle>
I'm glad I'm not an atheist; I could never live in so narrow a space,
certain of things of which I know nothing, and ignorant of things
that
every schoolboy knows.
It sounds more like you're afraid of your own ignorance and scared of
the unknown. That isn't something to chuckle about. You won't be able
to contribute much to humanity until you overcome it, but I assure you
that if you can you'll be able to witness the beauty of the natural
world.
When you don't have a god to attribute things to, everything seems that
much more important....
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