| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Secular Fundamentalist" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2005 12:50:44 PM |
| Object: |
Brian Walden on Science and religion |
Interesting POV from professional skeptic Brian 'assuming that what
you're saying is true..' Walden. I have answers to many of the points
he makes. His main mistake is to treat religion and morality as being
co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Brian Walden on Science and religion |
28 Mar 2005 01:59:18 PM |
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Secular Fundamentalist <Bill.Frindall@answersinWisden.org> wrote:
His main mistake is to treat religion
and morality as being co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
One should always take Brian Walden seriously. Maybe Walden is Norman
French for very intelligent, as the former (to 1997) Tory MP, George
Walden, is also excellent, a person who's words, like Brian Walden's,
usually command serious attention.
This took me a while, but define God as the sum of all our values.
Tidy-up a bit by noting Hinduism is monotheistic, and therefore
polytheism is rare, and morality becomes God - whatever you call Him -
and that means religion becomes morality, the values of mankind.
The big leap, I think, is noticing God is the sum of all our values.
Yet religion does not present itself as morality, more above morality,
for religion claims to be arbiter of what is right and wrong. Something
is right, not because it is intrinsically so, but because religion says
it is. That's only how religion presents itself.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
What does/do F.L.A.H.N. and/or aa #2208 mean?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Brian Walden on Science and religion |
28 Mar 2005 05:54:27 PM |
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Jim Walsh wrote:
Secular Fundamentalist <Bill.Frindall@answersinWisden.org> wrote:
His main mistake is to treat religion
and morality as being co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
One should always take Brian Walden seriously. Maybe Walden is
Norman
French for very intelligent, as the former (to 1997) Tory MP, George
Walden, is also excellent, a person who's words, like Brian Walden's,
usually command serious attention.
This took me a while, but define God as the sum of all our values.
Tidy-up a bit by noting Hinduism is monotheistic, and therefore
polytheism is rare, and morality becomes God - whatever you call Him
-
and that means religion becomes morality, the values of mankind.
One cannot say that Hinduism is monotheistic! Hinduism is diverse
enough to contain both atheism and theism; it is not just one single
religion but a family of religious thought. The Hinduism practiced in
most of India certainly appears polytheistic. And there is a notion
that all the different gods are but representations of the one supreme
god Brahma, but not all Hindus are aware of this nor believe this. Also
you can take this line of thought further. In Advaita Vedanta, all is
one and differences are illusion. This is pantheism and not monotheism.
With this in mind, one would not appeal to god for moral authority. The
laws are already laid down, as they are intrinsic. One must but
recognize them. Westerners have a punishment mentality, but much of
Hinduism has a natural consequence mentality.
.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Brian Walden on Science and religion |
28 Mar 2005 09:02:56 PM |
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wrote:
Jim Walsh wrote:
Secular Fundamentalist <Bill.Frindall@answersinWisden.org> wrote:
His main mistake is to treat religion
and morality as being co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
One should always take Brian Walden seriously. Maybe Walden is
Norman
French for very intelligent, as the former (to 1997) Tory MP,
George
Walden, is also excellent, a person who's words, like Brian
Walden's,
usually command serious attention.
This took me a while, but define God as the sum of all our values.
Tidy-up a bit by noting Hinduism is monotheistic, and therefore
polytheism is rare, and morality becomes God - whatever you call
Him
-
and that means religion becomes morality, the values of mankind.
One cannot say that Hinduism is monotheistic! Hinduism is diverse
enough to contain both atheism and theism; it is not just one single
religion but a family of religious thought. The Hinduism practiced in
most of India certainly appears polytheistic. And there is a notion
that all the different gods are but representations of the one
supreme
god Brahma, but not all Hindus are aware of this nor believe this.
Also
you can take this line of thought further. In Advaita Vedanta, all is
one and differences are illusion. This is pantheism and not
monotheism.
With this in mind, one would not appeal to god for moral authority.
The
laws are already laid down, as they are intrinsic. One must but
recognize them. Westerners have a punishment mentality, but much of
Hinduism has a natural consequence mentality.
So how do you account for the wars in Mahabharata or when King Asoka
waged on war on Kalinga?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Brian Walden on Science and religion |
29 Mar 2005 12:43:59 AM |
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maff wrote:
chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com wrote:
Jim Walsh wrote:
Secular Fundamentalist <Bill.Frindall@answersinWisden.org> wrote:
His main mistake is to treat religion
and morality as being co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
One should always take Brian Walden seriously. Maybe Walden is
Norman
French for very intelligent, as the former (to 1997) Tory MP,
George
Walden, is also excellent, a person who's words, like Brian
Walden's,
usually command serious attention.
This took me a while, but define God as the sum of all our
values.
Tidy-up a bit by noting Hinduism is monotheistic, and therefore
polytheism is rare, and morality becomes God - whatever you call
Him
-
and that means religion becomes morality, the values of mankind.
One cannot say that Hinduism is monotheistic! Hinduism is diverse
enough to contain both atheism and theism; it is not just one
single
religion but a family of religious thought. The Hinduism practiced
in
most of India certainly appears polytheistic. And there is a notion
that all the different gods are but representations of the one
supreme
god Brahma, but not all Hindus are aware of this nor believe this.
Also
you can take this line of thought further. In Advaita Vedanta, all
is
one and differences are illusion. This is pantheism and not
monotheism.
With this in mind, one would not appeal to god for moral authority.
The
laws are already laid down, as they are intrinsic. One must but
recognize them. Westerners have a punishment mentality, but much of
Hinduism has a natural consequence mentality.
So how do you account for the wars in Mahabharata or when King Asoka
waged on war on Kalinga?
I won't promise to account for anything specific. Hinduism is very
diverse. It contains both theism and atheism, both ignorant
superstition and incredibly sophisticated logic.
The Bharata may be the textual equivalent to the Christian bible. But
unlike Christianity, there are Jivan Mukti that would say the that
stuff is only useful as toilet paper. (There are Jivan Mukti who would
say the apparent story of something like the Bhagavad Gita is just
effective truth for the sheeple, while the real truth lies hidden in
layers upon layers of interpretation and abstraction. This seems to be
more typical.)
If you want to talk about the Hindusim of the masses, then sure
Vishnu's avatar will preach your ear off about Dharma, just like Moses
would.
.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Brian Walden on Science and religion |
29 Mar 2005 08:06:28 AM |
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wrote:
maff wrote:
wrote:
Jim Walsh wrote:
Secular Fundamentalist <Bill.Frindall@answersinWisden.org>
wrote:
His main mistake is to treat religion
and morality as being co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
One should always take Brian Walden seriously. Maybe Walden is
Norman
French for very intelligent, as the former (to 1997) Tory MP,
George
Walden, is also excellent, a person who's words, like Brian
Walden's,
usually command serious attention.
This took me a while, but define God as the sum of all our
values.
Tidy-up a bit by noting Hinduism is monotheistic, and therefore
polytheism is rare, and morality becomes God - whatever you
call
Him
-
and that means religion becomes morality, the values of
mankind.
One cannot say that Hinduism is monotheistic! Hinduism is diverse
enough to contain both atheism and theism; it is not just one
single
religion but a family of religious thought. The Hinduism
practiced
in
most of India certainly appears polytheistic. And there is a
notion
that all the different gods are but representations of the one
supreme
god Brahma, but not all Hindus are aware of this nor believe
this.
Also
you can take this line of thought further. In Advaita Vedanta,
all
is
one and differences are illusion. This is pantheism and not
monotheism.
With this in mind, one would not appeal to god for moral
authority.
The
laws are already laid down, as they are intrinsic. One must but
recognize them. Westerners have a punishment mentality, but much
of
Hinduism has a natural consequence mentality.
So how do you account for the wars in Mahabharata or when King
Asoka
waged on war on Kalinga?
I won't promise to account for anything specific. Hinduism is very
diverse. It contains both theism and atheism, both ignorant
superstition and incredibly sophisticated logic.
The Bharata may be the textual equivalent to the Christian bible. But
unlike Christianity, there are Jivan Mukti that would say the that
But for the victims it won't matter one way or the other. They're
already dead.
Shashi Tharoor
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/d19b7202cffb0e70
stuff is only useful as toilet paper. (There are Jivan Mukti who
would
say the apparent story of something like the Bhagavad Gita is just
effective truth for the sheeple, while the real truth lies hidden in
layers upon layers of interpretation and abstraction. This seems to
be
more typical.)
If you want to talk about the Hindusim of the masses, then sure
Vishnu's avatar will preach your ear off about Dharma, just like
Moses
would.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Brian Walden on Science and religion |
29 Mar 2005 06:02:23 PM |
|
|
maff wrote:
chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com wrote:
maff wrote:
chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com wrote:
Jim Walsh wrote:
Secular Fundamentalist <Bill.Frindall@answersinWisden.org>
wrote:
His main mistake is to treat religion
and morality as being co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
One should always take Brian Walden seriously. Maybe Walden
is
Norman
French for very intelligent, as the former (to 1997) Tory MP,
George
Walden, is also excellent, a person who's words, like Brian
Walden's,
usually command serious attention.
This took me a while, but define God as the sum of all our
values.
Tidy-up a bit by noting Hinduism is monotheistic, and
therefore
polytheism is rare, and morality becomes God - whatever you
call
Him
-
and that means religion becomes morality, the values of
mankind.
One cannot say that Hinduism is monotheistic! Hinduism is
diverse
enough to contain both atheism and theism; it is not just one
single
religion but a family of religious thought. The Hinduism
practiced
in
most of India certainly appears polytheistic. And there is a
notion
that all the different gods are but representations of the one
supreme
god Brahma, but not all Hindus are aware of this nor believe
this.
Also
you can take this line of thought further. In Advaita Vedanta,
all
is
one and differences are illusion. This is pantheism and not
monotheism.
With this in mind, one would not appeal to god for moral
authority.
The
laws are already laid down, as they are intrinsic. One must but
recognize them. Westerners have a punishment mentality, but
much
of
Hinduism has a natural consequence mentality.
So how do you account for the wars in Mahabharata or when King
Asoka
waged on war on Kalinga?
I won't promise to account for anything specific. Hinduism is very
diverse. It contains both theism and atheism, both ignorant
superstition and incredibly sophisticated logic.
The Bharata may be the textual equivalent to the Christian bible.
But
unlike Christianity, there are Jivan Mukti that would say the that
But for the victims it won't matter one way or the other. They're
already dead.
Shashi Tharoor
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/d19b7202cffb0e70
I am sorry, but I am not understanding this discussion. I started by
saying that it is not correct to say that Hinduism is monotheistic, and
we have drifted into the fact that the Hindu masses don't practice what
their great masters preach. The same is true of Christianity as well.
I am not sure what kind of dialoge you seek.
stuff is only useful as toilet paper. (There are Jivan Mukti who
would
say the apparent story of something like the Bhagavad Gita is just
effective truth for the sheeple, while the real truth lies hidden
in
layers upon layers of interpretation and abstraction. This seems to
be
more typical.)
If you want to talk about the Hindusim of the masses, then sure
Vishnu's avatar will preach your ear off about Dharma, just like
Moses
would.
.
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Brian Walden on Science and religion |
29 Mar 2005 09:06:28 PM |
|
|
wrote:
maff wrote:
wrote:
maff wrote:
wrote:
Jim Walsh wrote:
Secular Fundamentalist <Bill.Frindall@answersinWisden.org>
wrote:
His main mistake is to treat religion
and morality as being co-terminus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4387563.stm
One should always take Brian Walden seriously. Maybe
Walden
is
Norman
French for very intelligent, as the former (to 1997) Tory
MP,
George
Walden, is also excellent, a person who's words, like Brian
Walden's,
usually command serious attention.
This took me a while, but define God as the sum of all our
values.
Tidy-up a bit by noting Hinduism is monotheistic, and
therefore
polytheism is rare, and morality becomes God - whatever you
call
Him
-
and that means religion becomes morality, the values of
mankind.
One cannot say that Hinduism is monotheistic! Hinduism is
diverse
enough to contain both atheism and theism; it is not just one
single
religion but a family of religious thought. The Hinduism
practiced
in
most of India certainly appears polytheistic. And there is a
notion
that all the different gods are but representations of the
one
supreme
god Brahma, but not all Hindus are aware of this nor believe
this.
Also
you can take this line of thought further. In Advaita
Vedanta,
all
is
one and differences are illusion. This is pantheism and not
monotheism.
With this in mind, one would not appeal to god for moral
authority.
The
laws are already laid down, as they are intrinsic. One must
but
recognize them. Westerners have a punishment mentality, but
much
of
Hinduism has a natural consequence mentality.
So how do you account for the wars in Mahabharata or when King
Asoka
waged on war on Kalinga?
I won't promise to account for anything specific. Hinduism is
very
diverse. It contains both theism and atheism, both ignorant
superstition and incredibly sophisticated logic.
The Bharata may be the textual equivalent to the Christian bible.
But
unlike Christianity, there are Jivan Mukti that would say the
that
But for the victims it won't matter one way or the other. They're
already dead.
Shashi Tharoor
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/d19b7202cffb0e70
I am sorry, but I am not understanding this discussion. I started by
saying that it is not correct to say that Hinduism is monotheistic,
and
we have drifted into the fact that the Hindu masses don't practice
what
their great masters preach. The same is true of Christianity as well.
I am not sure what kind of dialoge you seek.
The point I'm making is religion is not the only fault line in the
world. It's a combination of many factors including religion.
stuff is only useful as toilet paper. (There are Jivan Mukti who
would
say the apparent story of something like the Bhagavad Gita is
just
effective truth for the sheeple, while the real truth lies hidden
in
layers upon layers of interpretation and abstraction. This seems
to
be
more typical.)
If you want to talk about the Hindusim of the masses, then sure
Vishnu's avatar will preach your ear off about Dharma, just like
Moses
would.
.
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