| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"MrPepper11" |
| Date: |
02 Mar 2005 02:29:53 PM |
| Object: |
Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Calling for an expansion of his faith-based initiative, Bush said that
if Congress did not vote for the changes in hiring law this year, he
would consider doing it himself through "executive action."
Administration officials later said it remained unclear what powers the
president had to affect hiring laws through executive order.
The president's remarks came on the eve of a House vote on the hiring
issue. Administration officials say that some religious charities have
been dissuaded from applying for federal grants out of fear that they
would lose their religious identities in having to comply with civil
rights laws that prevent discrimination in hiring.
Opponents say the change would be tantamount to government-sponsored
discrimination, a fear that led Senate Democrats and skeptical
Republicans to block the initiative during Bush's first term.
"One of the key reasons why many faith-based groups are so effective is
a commitment to serve that is grounded in the shared values and
religious identity of their volunteers and employees," Bush said. "In
other words, effectiveness happens because people who share a faith
show up to help a particular organization based on that faith to
succeed. And that's important, now, for people in Washington to
understand."
Bush's faith-based initiative has been credited with boosting the GOP
vote in battleground states last year among African Americans and
Latinos. Under the initiative, the administration has encouraged
federal agencies to funnel more money to religious organizations that
Bush says often perform social services more effectively than the
government.
The House is expected to approve legislation today that, among other
things, would allow religious organizations that receive federal
job-training grants to consider religious beliefs when hiring staff.
The measure's fate is less certain in the Senate.
Bush, speaking Tuesday at a conference of groups involved in the
faith-based initiative, said Congress should pass the measure to clear
up a confusing web of laws regarding whether federally funded religious
groups can restrict hiring to people with matching beliefs.
President Clinton signed laws that the White House was now contending
permitted such hiring practices, including a landmark 1996 welfare
measure that permitted preferential hiring by faith-based organizations
engaged in welfare-to-work programs.
But other laws prohibit discrimination under federally funded
job-training and education programs.
Opponents charged that Bush misinterpreted the laws signed by Clinton,
and that the measures being sought by Bush represented a sharp shift in
U.S. policy, creating an historic rollback of civil rights laws.
Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Church and
State, which opposes the House bill, said the legislation being
considered by the House would roll back existing discrimination
statutes.
"It is astonishing that the president would put his so-called moral
power behind a rollback of the nation's civil rights principles," Lynn
said. He said that he would defend any religious organization's right
to hire whomever it pleased for jobs and programs not funded by the
federal government. But, he said, "this is about tax dollars being used
affirmatively to fund discrimination."
Rep. Robert C. Scott (D-Va.), who has led opposition to the
job-training legislation to be voted on today, said Tuesday that
institutionalizing religious discrimination would lead directly to
legalized racial discrimination. He said blacks would be shut out of
jobs created by a Mormon organization, given that Mormonism was almost
entirely white, while whites would be shut out of jobs created by
programs run by the Nation of Islam or the African Methodist Episcopal
Church.
"That is a profound change in position for the federal government," he
said.
Bush's faith-based initiative has proved politically beneficial to the
GOP, which has used taxpayer-financed grants as an entree into black,
Latino and evangelical churches, many of which are run by charismatic
pastors who backed Bush's reelection.
But the program came under criticism last month from a former official
from the White House faith-based office, David Kuo, who penned a column
for a religion website accusing the administration of failing to live
up to Bush's campaign promises to be a "compassionate conservative."
Kuo criticized the White House as failing to lobby hard enough for
major expenditures and changes to help religious charities, including a
tax break for charitable giving by people who do not itemize their tax
returns.
That deduction didn't pass amid criticism that the measure was too
costly in light of Bush's other tax breaks. In his budget for 2006,
Bush for the first time did not request it.
Still, Bush said that the administration had increased spending on
faith-based groups. Bush said the government spent $2 billion in fiscal
year 2004 on such organizations, an increase over the $1.1 billion the
administration said was spent the year before. He took credit for
increasing the percentage of federal grants that go to faith-based
groups.
But Jim Towey, director of the White House Office on Faith-Based and
Community Initiatives, later told reporters that the numbers were
inconclusive. The 2003 figure represented spending by five agencies,
while the 2004 number totaled that of seven agencies. What is more, he
said, both figures might be too high or too low, because there was no
systematic way to tally spending on faith-based groups.
Rep. Major R. Owens (D-N.Y.), a member of the Education and Workforce
Committee that produced the bill, said he planned to join other members
of the Congressional Black Caucus in voting against the hiring measure.
But he cautioned Democrats not to be seen as consistently negative
toward programs sending real dollars and real aid to local communities.
"If we don't have a strong alternative six months from now, we will be
in serious trouble because these [faith-based] programs have great
appeal," Owens said in an interview on the eve of the vote. "We should
recognize the appeal of programs that reach down to churches and
community organizations to solve local problems and develop our own
parallel program" but with more oversight and targeting than occurs
under the White House initiative.
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
02 Mar 2005 03:57:23 PM |
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"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1109795393.905507.296380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Calling for an expansion of his faith-based initiative, Bush said that
if Congress did not vote for the changes in hiring law this year, he
would consider doing it himself through "executive action."
Administration officials later said it remained unclear what powers the
president had to affect hiring laws through executive order.
The little Napoleon who, arrogantly, wants what he wants, and the laws,
Constitution, and even Congress, be damned!!!!
The president's remarks came on the eve of a House vote on the hiring
issue. Administration officials say that some religious charities have
been dissuaded from applying for federal grants out of fear that they
would lose their religious identities in having to comply with civil
rights laws that prevent discrimination in hiring.
Opponents say the change would be tantamount to government-sponsored
discrimination, a fear that led Senate Democrats and skeptical
Republicans to block the initiative during Bush's first term.
"One of the key reasons why many faith-based groups are so effective is
a commitment to serve that is grounded in the shared values and
religious identity of their volunteers and employees," Bush said. "In
other words, effectiveness happens because people who share a faith
show up to help a particular organization based on that faith to
succeed. And that's important, now, for people in Washington to
understand."
Even IF that were so, that is NO reason the government should be funding
them!
They are as only as effective as their determination - and ANYONE, not just
religious believers, can and do share that same commitment
Bush's faith-based initiative has been credited with boosting the GOP
vote in battleground states last year among African Americans and
Latinos. Under the initiative, the administration has encouraged
federal agencies to funnel more money to religious organizations that
Bush says often perform social services more effectively than the
government.
The House is expected to approve legislation today that, among other
things, would allow religious organizations that receive federal
job-training grants to consider religious beliefs when hiring staff.
The measure's fate is less certain in the Senate.
Bush, speaking Tuesday at a conference of groups involved in the
faith-based initiative, said Congress should pass the measure to clear
up a confusing web of laws regarding whether federally funded religious
groups can restrict hiring to people with matching beliefs.
President Clinton signed laws that the White House was now contending
permitted such hiring practices, including a landmark 1996 welfare
measure that permitted preferential hiring by faith-based organizations
engaged in welfare-to-work programs.
But other laws prohibit discrimination under federally funded
job-training and education programs.
Opponents charged that Bush misinterpreted the laws signed by Clinton,
and that the measures being sought by Bush represented a sharp shift in
U.S. policy, creating an historic rollback of civil rights laws.
Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Church and
State, which opposes the House bill, said the legislation being
considered by the House would roll back existing discrimination
statutes.
"It is astonishing that the president would put his so-called moral
power behind a rollback of the nation's civil rights principles," Lynn
said. He said that he would defend any religious organization's right
to hire whomever it pleased for jobs and programs not funded by the
federal government. But, he said, "this is about tax dollars being used
affirmatively to fund discrimination."
Rep. Robert C. Scott (D-Va.), who has led opposition to the
job-training legislation to be voted on today, said Tuesday that
institutionalizing religious discrimination would lead directly to
legalized racial discrimination. He said blacks would be shut out of
jobs created by a Mormon organization, given that Mormonism was almost
entirely white, while whites would be shut out of jobs created by
programs run by the Nation of Islam or the African Methodist Episcopal
Church.
"That is a profound change in position for the federal government," he
said.
Bush's faith-based initiative has proved politically beneficial to the
GOP, which has used taxpayer-financed grants as an entree into black,
Latino and evangelical churches, many of which are run by charismatic
pastors who backed Bush's reelection.
But the program came under criticism last month from a former official
from the White House faith-based office, David Kuo, who penned a column
for a religion website accusing the administration of failing to live
up to Bush's campaign promises to be a "compassionate conservative."
Kuo criticized the White House as failing to lobby hard enough for
major expenditures and changes to help religious charities, including a
tax break for charitable giving by people who do not itemize their tax
returns.
That deduction didn't pass amid criticism that the measure was too
costly in light of Bush's other tax breaks. In his budget for 2006,
Bush for the first time did not request it.
Still, Bush said that the administration had increased spending on
faith-based groups. Bush said the government spent $2 billion in fiscal
year 2004 on such organizations, an increase over the $1.1 billion the
administration said was spent the year before. He took credit for
increasing the percentage of federal grants that go to faith-based
groups.
But Jim Towey, director of the White House Office on Faith-Based and
Community Initiatives, later told reporters that the numbers were
inconclusive. The 2003 figure represented spending by five agencies,
while the 2004 number totaled that of seven agencies. What is more, he
said, both figures might be too high or too low, because there was no
systematic way to tally spending on faith-based groups.
Rep. Major R. Owens (D-N.Y.), a member of the Education and Workforce
Committee that produced the bill, said he planned to join other members
of the Congressional Black Caucus in voting against the hiring measure.
But he cautioned Democrats not to be seen as consistently negative
toward programs sending real dollars and real aid to local communities.
"If we don't have a strong alternative six months from now, we will be
in serious trouble because these [faith-based] programs have great
appeal," Owens said in an interview on the eve of the vote. "We should
recognize the appeal of programs that reach down to churches and
community organizations to solve local problems and develop our own
parallel program" but with more oversight and targeting than occurs
under the White House initiative.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
02 Mar 2005 05:28:04 PM |
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ZenIsWhen wrote:
"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1109795393.905507.296380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Calling for an expansion of his faith-based initiative, Bush said
that
if Congress did not vote for the changes in hiring law this year,
he
would consider doing it himself through "executive action."
Administration officials later said it remained unclear what powers
the
president had to affect hiring laws through executive order.
The little Napoleon who, arrogantly, wants what he wants, and the
laws,
Constitution, and even Congress, be damned!!!!
Napoleon was a military genius with a great respect for the principles
of the Enlightenment. Napoleon instituted the metric system. Napoleon
helped to end feudalism. Napoleon gave freedom of religion,
emancipating the Jews.
Please do not compare Bush to Napoleon.
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
02 Mar 2005 07:17:44 PM |
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<chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109806084.402182.113500@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1109795393.905507.296380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Calling for an expansion of his faith-based initiative, Bush said
that
if Congress did not vote for the changes in hiring law this year,
he
would consider doing it himself through "executive action."
Administration officials later said it remained unclear what powers
the
president had to affect hiring laws through executive order.
The little Napoleon who, arrogantly, wants what he wants, and the
laws,
Constitution, and even Congress, be damned!!!!
Napoleon was a military genius with a great respect for the principles
of the Enlightenment. Napoleon instituted the metric system. Napoleon
helped to end feudalism. Napoleon gave freedom of religion,
emancipating the Jews.
Please do not compare Bush to Napoleon.
........ just got tired of constantly showing how Bush was like Hitler.
Besides, Hitler and Mousollini "made the trains run on time" didn't excuse
the fact that they were power hungry tyrants.
.
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| User: "Williams" |
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| Title: Re: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
02 Mar 2005 07:29:55 PM |
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ZenIsWhen wrote:
<chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109806084.402182.113500@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1109795393.905507.296380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of
potential
employees.
Calling for an expansion of his faith-based initiative, Bush
said
that
if Congress did not vote for the changes in hiring law this
year,
he
would consider doing it himself through "executive action."
Administration officials later said it remained unclear what
powers
the
president had to affect hiring laws through executive order.
The little Napoleon who, arrogantly, wants what he wants, and the
laws,
Constitution, and even Congress, be damned!!!!
Napoleon was a military genius with a great respect for the
principles
of the Enlightenment. Napoleon instituted the metric system.
Napoleon
helped to end feudalism. Napoleon gave freedom of religion,
emancipating the Jews.
Please do not compare Bush to Napoleon.
........ just got tired of constantly showing how Bush was like
Hitler.
Besides, Hitler and Mousollini "made the trains run on time" didn't
excuse
the fact that they were power hungry tyrants.
hitler volunteered and served on the western front as a corporal... he
was wounded once, almost was gassed to death on another occasion....
and decorated for bravery _four_ times.
napoleon was one of the greatest military commanders in history
(waterloo excepted)... also an outstanding civil administrator with a
keen interest in learning (except for the emperor bit)... remember
beethoven had dedicated the 3rd symphony to him.
g w bush is a pathetic coward and a petty vandal.
.
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| User: "Williams" |
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| Title: Re: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
02 Mar 2005 07:36:37 PM |
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it's time to everyone to start your own private church... get
yourselves and your own families some good well-paying faith-based
jobs... 'true believers' only... 'nonbelievers' need not apply...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
02 Mar 2005 11:48:55 PM |
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MrPepper11 wrote:
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Let me guess what's next: this edict is then applied to any
business or corporation establishing itself as "religious",
ie. anybody that wants to. It would open the door to firing
or not hiring people for not disclosing their own religion
or for not being part of the employer's religion.
And after that? Companies who don't establish a religion
(or they do, and their religions are not xian) see their
business licenses revoked without explanation?
That's pretty much what the English and Europeans did to the
Quakers and the Jews. Only this time, there's no "New World"
to leave for and start a new country.
Bob Dog
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
11 Mar 2005 01:02:30 PM |
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wrote:
MrPepper11 wrote:
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Let me guess what's next:
No need to guess, I'll tell you. As more and more charities
become dependant on suckling on the public teat they and their
employess will campaign (legally or illegally) for the politicians
that want to feed them more.
--
FF
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| User: "Wm James" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
11 Mar 2005 12:44:03 PM |
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On 2 Mar 2005 21:48:55 -0800, wrote:
MrPepper11 wrote:
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Let me guess what's next: this edict is then applied to any
business or corporation establishing itself as "religious",
ie. anybody that wants to. It would open the door to firing
or not hiring people for not disclosing their own religion
or for not being part of the employer's religion.
And after that? Companies who don't establish a religion
(or they do, and their religions are not xian) see their
business licenses revoked without explanation?
That's pretty much what the English and Europeans did to the
Quakers and the Jews. Only this time, there's no "New World"
to leave for and start a new country.
Bob Dog
What's the problem? In a free country free people are free to trade
with whom they choose. If someone doesn't want to buy labor from
atheists, they are free to decline buying it from me. That's their
right. No problem, their loss.
William R. James
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
11 Mar 2005 01:09:20 PM |
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Wm James wrote:
What's the problem? In a free country free people are free to trade
with whom they choose. If someone doesn't want to buy labor from
atheists, they are free to decline buying it from me. That's their
right. No problem, their loss.
The problem is the rule (or lack thereof) is to be applied to
Federally funded charities. A privately funded charity that
hires based on faith, not on competence may experience a decline
in the quality of the services it provides. If potential donors
notice this, they are free to donate to better managed charities.
But if the charity receives Federal funding then there is a different
feedback mechanism in place--if the Feds want to cut their funds
in order to fund a more competent organization they'll just appeal
to their Congressmen.
E.g. it one thing for a private organization to discriminate, it
is another when our tax money is being used to facilitate that
discrimination.
--
FF
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| User: "Wm James" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
15 Mar 2005 01:46:02 PM |
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On 11 Mar 2005 11:09:20 -0800, wrote:
Wm James wrote:
What's the problem? In a free country free people are free to trade
with whom they choose. If someone doesn't want to buy labor from
atheists, they are free to decline buying it from me. That's their
right. No problem, their loss.
The problem is the rule (or lack thereof) is to be applied to
Federally funded charities. A privately funded charity that
hires based on faith, not on competence may experience a decline
in the quality of the services it provides. If potential donors
notice this, they are free to donate to better managed charities.
But if the charity receives Federal funding then there is a different
feedback mechanism in place--if the Feds want to cut their funds
in order to fund a more competent organization they'll just appeal
to their Congressmen.
E.g. it one thing for a private organization to discriminate, it
is another when our tax money is being used to facilitate that
discrimination.
I agree, but that's just another set of reasons why government should
never be in the charity business to start with. However having said
that.... Assuming it is and will remain in the business of charities
and sort of subcontracts it by default they way it does donating tax
dollars to existing charities instead of building it's own orgs, the
existing charities will always have their own agndas to varying
degrees. If, for example, government is giving surplus food to bum
shelters, and there's a dozen charities already in an area caring for
the bums, it's logical to use those existing ogs and their existing
knowlege of the area and familiarity. If it's a religous group
running one and they only hire their own, say it's moonies, foir
example. So what? If they are feeding and housing bums as
efficiently as the reast or more so, and the resources were allocated
to do that job, what difference does it make who they hire? I
wouldn't expect baptists to hire orthodox jews or 7th Day adventists
if the place is open on saturdays, for example. Nor would I expect
Jehova's Witnesses to hire someone who they think will doom them to
hell by association. They have their own org with their own beliefs,
let them practice as they please. Being superstitious doesn't make
them non-0citizens or disqualify them from participation. As long as
hey are doing the job they agreed to with the donated resources, who
cares what their hiring methods are?
William R. James
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
15 Mar 2005 07:36:28 PM |
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Wm James wrote:
On 11 Mar 2005 11:09:20 -0800, wrote:
Wm James wrote:
What's the problem? In a free country free people are free to
trade
with whom they choose. If someone doesn't want to buy labor from
atheists, they are free to decline buying it from me. That's their
right. No problem, their loss.
The problem is the rule (or lack thereof) is to be applied to
Federally funded charities. A privately funded charity that
hires based on faith, not on competence may experience a decline
in the quality of the services it provides. If potential donors
notice this, they are free to donate to better managed charities.
But if the charity receives Federal funding then there is a
different
feedback mechanism in place--if the Feds want to cut their funds
in order to fund a more competent organization they'll just appeal
to their Congressmen.
E.g. it one thing for a private organization to discriminate, it
is another when our tax money is being used to facilitate that
discrimination.
I agree, but that's just another set of reasons why government should
never be in the charity business to start with.
Agreed, and there are others as well.
However having said
that.... Assuming it is and will remain in the business of charities
and sort of subcontracts it by default they way it does donating tax
dollars to existing charities instead of building it's own orgs, the
existing charities will always have their own agndas to varying
degrees. If, for example, government is giving surplus food to bum
shelters, and there's a dozen charities already in an area caring for
the bums, it's logical to use those existing ogs and their existing
knowlege of the area and familiarity. If it's a religous group
running one and they only hire their own, say it's moonies, foir
example. So what? If they are feeding and housing bums as
efficiently as the reast or more so, and the resources were allocated
to do that job, what difference does it make who they hire? I
wouldn't expect baptists to hire orthodox jews or 7th Day adventists
if the place is open on saturdays, for example. Nor would I expect
Jehova's Witnesses to hire someone who they think will doom them to
hell by association. They have their own org with their own beliefs,
let them practice as they please. Being superstitious doesn't make
them non-0citizens or disqualify them from participation. As long as
hey are doing the job they agreed to with the donated resources, who
cares what their hiring methods are?
The reasons for caring were stated above. They can be summarized as
to do so puts the government in the position of financing religious
discrimination.
--
FF
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| User: "Wm James" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
17 Mar 2005 08:15:58 PM |
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On 15 Mar 2005 17:36:28 -0800, wrote:
Wm James wrote:
On 11 Mar 2005 11:09:20 -0800, wrote:
Wm James wrote:
What's the problem? In a free country free people are free to
trade
with whom they choose. If someone doesn't want to buy labor from
atheists, they are free to decline buying it from me. That's their
right. No problem, their loss.
The problem is the rule (or lack thereof) is to be applied to
Federally funded charities. A privately funded charity that
hires based on faith, not on competence may experience a decline
in the quality of the services it provides. If potential donors
notice this, they are free to donate to better managed charities.
But if the charity receives Federal funding then there is a
different
feedback mechanism in place--if the Feds want to cut their funds
in order to fund a more competent organization they'll just appeal
to their Congressmen.
E.g. it one thing for a private organization to discriminate, it
is another when our tax money is being used to facilitate that
discrimination.
I agree, but that's just another set of reasons why government should
never be in the charity business to start with.
Agreed, and there are others as well.
However having said
that.... Assuming it is and will remain in the business of charities
and sort of subcontracts it by default they way it does donating tax
dollars to existing charities instead of building it's own orgs, the
existing charities will always have their own agndas to varying
degrees. If, for example, government is giving surplus food to bum
shelters, and there's a dozen charities already in an area caring for
the bums, it's logical to use those existing ogs and their existing
knowlege of the area and familiarity. If it's a religous group
running one and they only hire their own, say it's moonies, foir
example. So what? If they are feeding and housing bums as
efficiently as the reast or more so, and the resources were allocated
to do that job, what difference does it make who they hire? I
wouldn't expect baptists to hire orthodox jews or 7th Day adventists
if the place is open on saturdays, for example. Nor would I expect
Jehova's Witnesses to hire someone who they think will doom them to
hell by association. They have their own org with their own beliefs,
let them practice as they please. Being superstitious doesn't make
them non-0citizens or disqualify them from participation. As long as
hey are doing the job they agreed to with the donated resources, who
cares what their hiring methods are?
The reasons for caring were stated above. They can be summarized as
to do so puts the government in the position of financing religious
discrimination.
So? When government funds anything it discriminates against all who
didn't get the money. Money spent on the military discriminates
against those who don't qualify for military service. Suppose a little
blind kid wants a military career, for example. Funding of cancer
research discriminates against people with the willies. :)
It's just a fact of live that when you spend a dollar, you are
choosing not to spend it anywhere else.
There are lots of specific agencies and orgs which discriminate in
varous ways for perfetly legitimate reasons. Lots of positions in
womens' shelters are not available to men. Should that deny them
funding?
Even government discriminates every day. Suppose someone age 30 wants
to retire and start collecting Social Security. Age discrimination?
Supose a black FBI agent wants the job of infiltrating the KKK? A MAD
magizine piece did a spoof of "Mission Impossible" with that in it
back in the 60s.
William R. James
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
20 Mar 2005 10:21:44 AM |
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Wm James wrote:
On 15 Mar 2005 17:36:28 -0800, wrote:
...
The reasons for caring were stated above. They can be summarized as
to do so puts the government in the position of financing religious
discrimination.
So? When government funds anything it discriminates against all who
didn't get the money.
But said discrimination is administered _indiscriminantly_.
There are lots of specific agencies and orgs which discriminate in
varous ways for perfetly legitimate reasons. Lots of positions in
womens' shelters are not available to men. Should that deny them
funding?
Yes.
--
FF
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| User: "Wm James" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
21 Mar 2005 01:49:04 AM |
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On 20 Mar 2005 08:21:44 -0800, wrote:
Wm James wrote:
On 15 Mar 2005 17:36:28 -0800, wrote:
...
The reasons for caring were stated above. They can be summarized as
to do so puts the government in the position of financing religious
discrimination.
So? When government funds anything it discriminates against all who
didn't get the money.
But said discrimination is administered _indiscriminantly_.
There are lots of specific agencies and orgs which discriminate in
varous ways for perfetly legitimate reasons. Lots of positions in
womens' shelters are not available to men. Should that deny them
funding?
Yes.
I agree that government schouldn't be in the charity business, but
assuming for the sake of argument that it is, it has to be rational in
recognizing the charity has it's own targets.
William R. James
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
21 Mar 2005 05:09:07 PM |
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Wm James wrote:
On 20 Mar 2005 08:21:44 -0800, wrote:
Wm James wrote:
On 15 Mar 2005 17:36:28 -0800, wrote:
...
The reasons for caring were stated above. They can be summarized
as
to do so puts the government in the position of financing
religious
discrimination.
So? When government funds anything it discriminates against all
who
didn't get the money.
But said discrimination is administered _indiscriminantly_.
There are lots of specific agencies and orgs which discriminate in
varous ways for perfetly legitimate reasons. Lots of positions in
womens' shelters are not available to men. Should that deny them
funding?
Yes.
I agree that government schouldn't be in the charity business, but
assuming for the sake of argument that it is, it has to be rational
in
recognizing the charity has it's own targets.
"The government has to be rational..." Surely you jest.
--
FF
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| User: "Wm James" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
23 Mar 2005 07:13:07 PM |
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On 21 Mar 2005 15:09:07 -0800, wrote:
"The government has to be rational..." Surely you jest.
--
FF
My error. What was I thinking??? :)
William R. James
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
21 Mar 2005 05:06:21 PM |
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Wm James wrote:
On 20 Mar 2005 08:21:44 -0800, wrote:
Wm James wrote:
On 15 Mar 2005 17:36:28 -0800, wrote:
...
The reasons for caring were stated above. They can be summarized
as
to do so puts the government in the position of financing
religious
discrimination.
So? When government funds anything it discriminates against all
who
didn't get the money.
But said discrimination is administered _indiscriminantly_.
There are lots of specific agencies and orgs which discriminate in
varous ways for perfetly legitimate reasons. Lots of positions in
womens' shelters are not available to men. Should that deny them
funding?
Yes.
I agree that government schouldn't be in the charity business, but
assuming for the sake of argument that it is, it has to be rational
in
recognizing the charity has it's own targets.
William R. James
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
23 Mar 2005 07:21:13 PM |
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Wm James wrote:
On 2 Mar 2005 21:48:55 -0800, wrote:
MrPepper11 wrote:
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Let me guess what's next: this edict is then applied to any
business or corporation establishing itself as "religious",
ie. anybody that wants to. It would open the door to firing
or not hiring people for not disclosing their own religion
or for not being part of the employer's religion.
And after that? Companies who don't establish a religion
(or they do, and their religions are not xian) see their
business licenses revoked without explanation?
That's pretty much what the English and Europeans did to the
Quakers and the Jews. Only this time, there's no "New World"
to leave for and start a new country.
Bob Dog
What's the problem? In a free country free people are free to trade
with whom they choose. If someone doesn't want to buy labor from
atheists, they are free to decline buying it from me. That's their
right. No problem, their loss.
William R. James
It's only logical extension is a segregated workplace. I don't like
quotas but discrimination still needs to be illegal.
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| User: "Wm James" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
25 Mar 2005 11:56:05 PM |
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On 23 Mar 2005 17:21:13 -0800, "FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Wm James wrote:
On 2 Mar 2005 21:48:55 -0800, wrote:
MrPepper11 wrote:
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious
charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Let me guess what's next: this edict is then applied to any
business or corporation establishing itself as "religious",
ie. anybody that wants to. It would open the door to firing
or not hiring people for not disclosing their own religion
or for not being part of the employer's religion.
And after that? Companies who don't establish a religion
(or they do, and their religions are not xian) see their
business licenses revoked without explanation?
That's pretty much what the English and Europeans did to the
Quakers and the Jews. Only this time, there's no "New World"
to leave for and start a new country.
Bob Dog
What's the problem? In a free country free people are free to trade
with whom they choose. If someone doesn't want to buy labor from
atheists, they are free to decline buying it from me. That's their
right. No problem, their loss.
William R. James
It's only logical extension is a segregated workplace. I don't like
quotas but discrimination still needs to be illegal.
Why? There's nothing in the constitution giving government that
authority. And I'd much rather live in a free country than one where
I'm enslaved to avoid offending you.
William R. James
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
03 Mar 2005 08:29:46 AM |
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MrPepper11 wrote:
Los Angeles Times
March 2, 2005
Bush Says Faith Should Figure in Charity Jobs
By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday threatened to impose
controversial new policies to let federally funded religious charities
make hiring decisions based on the religious beliefs of potential
employees.
Calling for an expansion of his faith-based initiative, Bush said that
if Congress did not vote for the changes in hiring law this year, he
would consider doing it himself through "executive action."
Administration officials later said it remained unclear what powers the
president had to affect hiring laws through executive order.
So here we have an "activist president" who insists on making his own law,
bypassing the Constitutionally mandated process of legislation.
Where is the conservative outrage?
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
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| User: "Dave Simpson" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
03 Mar 2005 11:20:54 AM |
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"Stroke of the pen, law of the land. Kinda cool."
I'll leave it to you next-to-no-logic, low-maturity lefties to note the
irony.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
03 Mar 2005 09:40:21 PM |
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On 3 Mar 2005 09:20:54 -0800, "Dave Simpson"
<david_l_simpson@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Stroke of the pen, law of the land. Kinda cool."
I'll leave it to you next-to-no-logic, low-maturity lefties to note the
irony.
I can't. You blew up my irony meter with that statement alone.
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| User: "Dave Simpson" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
07 Mar 2005 05:31:45 PM |
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That's because your problem doesn't involve irony, but is much more
fundamental.
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| User: "Dave Simpson" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
03 Mar 2005 11:00:39 AM |
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Liberals broke the dikes of Constitutional and other legal constraints.
It is they who are to blame even if the flood runs rightward instead
of leftward on rare occasions.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
03 Mar 2005 02:12:09 PM |
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Dave Simpson wrote:
Liberals broke the dikes of Constitutional and other legal constraints.
It is they who are to blame even if the flood runs rightward instead
of leftward on rare occasions.
Meaning that it is less evil because someone else has done it first.
Exactly what I would expect from a neo-con rightard.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
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| User: "Dave Simpson" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
07 Mar 2005 05:32:56 PM |
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There goes Gregg, jumping to illogical "conclusions."
You're a real laugh, when not simply sad.
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| User: "Jeffrey Turner" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
04 Mar 2005 12:44:30 PM |
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Dave Simpson wrote:
Liberals broke the dikes of Constitutional and other legal constraints.
It is they who are to blame even if the flood runs rightward instead
of leftward on rare occasions.
So much for the old "personal responsibility" shtick from the
right wing.
--Jeff
--
It is only those who have neither
fired a shot nor heard the shrieks
and groans of the wounded who cry
aloud for blood, more vengeance, more
desolation. War is hell.
--William Tecumseh Sherman
In war, there are no unwounded soldiers.
--Jose Narosky
The urge to save humanity is almost
always a false front for the urge to
rule.
--H.L. Mencken
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
07 Mar 2005 03:36:11 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:44:30 -0500, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Dave Simpson wrote:
Liberals broke the dikes of Constitutional and other legal constraints.
It is they who are to blame even if the flood runs rightward instead
of leftward on rare occasions.
So much for the old "personal responsibility" shtick from the
right wing.
Reich Wing.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
02 Mar 2005 08:09:16 PM |
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On 2 Mar 2005 12:29:53 -0800, "MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> said in
alt.atheism:
"If we don't have a strong alternative six months from now, we will be
in serious trouble because these [faith-based] programs have great
appeal," Owens said in an interview on the eve of the vote.
As a black man he should be perfectly aware that slavery had "great
appeal" too. If "great appeal" is a good reason to pass a law, I
wonder how much it would cost me to buy him.
--
rukbat at verizon dot net
"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent design."
-Josef Balluch
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Bush: Hiring decisions may be based on religious beliefs |
23 Mar 2005 07:25:43 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On 2 Mar 2005 12:29:53 -0800, "MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> said
in
alt.atheism:
"If we don't have a strong alternative six months from now, we will
be
in serious trouble because these [faith-based] programs have great
appeal," Owens said in an interview on the eve of the vote.
As a black man he should be perfectly aware that slavery had "great
appeal" too. If "great appeal" is a good reason to pass a law, I
wonder how much it would cost me to buy him.
--
rukbat at verizon dot net
"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no
intelligent design."
-Josef Balluch
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
How big of a problem is this anyway? Are throngs of people not in their
religion demanding to work there?
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