| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"kathryn" |
| Date: |
21 Apr 2005 02:03:06 PM |
| Object: |
But *i'm* the bad person |
Gotta love the warm snuggly christians - on this whole other forum
It's bigotted and intolerant of us for having a problem with a supposedly
secular site displaying a special notice that we're all really sad about
JPII dying (we are?!)
Me saying that there is no god is more insulting than a christian telling me
(when they know I'm an atheist) that "god loves me"
I'm confrontational for feeling (and not being able to hide) a slight
replusion for someone who thinks that the whole AIDS problem in Africa has
bugger all to do with the pope since all the folks have to do is stop having
sex and it's not his fault if the only part they listen to is the "don't use
condoms" bit.
Which was also basically the answer to my sarcastic comments on the
"success" of the abstinence only sex ed programmes. I suggest that taking
the moral high ground wasn't actually the most important thing.
they must think their god loves hypocricy.
.
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 10:48:33 AM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:o0mp61112tdackv3qg8iaolkt4ih9euno7@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
And Elroy wonders why I'm angry in my recent posts. Are you at all
aware of what's going on in Africa regarding AIDS?
I am, in part. It seems that some researchers who studied African
hookers found around 5% of them that seem to be immune from
AIDS. Their bodies produce certain t-cells, iirc, that seek out and
attack the AIDS virus before it can take over. They're hoping to be
able to use that info to come up with a vaccine that could help to
eradicate it once and for all. All thanks to hard work by scientists,
not by prayers to some non-existant god who does
nothing to help people.
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 12:33:46 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:lj8be.5940$Nc.1897@trnddc08:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:o0mp61112tdackv3qg8iaolkt4ih9euno7@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
And Elroy wonders why I'm angry in my recent posts. Are you at all
aware of what's going on in Africa regarding AIDS?
I am, in part. It seems that some researchers who studied African
hookers found around 5% of them that seem to be immune from
AIDS. Their bodies produce certain t-cells, iirc, that seek out and
attack the AIDS virus before it can take over. They're hoping to be
able to use that info to come up with a vaccine that could help to
eradicate it once and for all. All thanks to hard work by
scientists, not by prayers to some non-existant god who does
nothing to help people.
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
They didn't accomplish their discoveries by prayer, Diana.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 03:22:40 PM |
|
|
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:1114450426.252b45d5563025adc3b11f4af70bb916@teranews...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:lj8be.5940$Nc.1897@trnddc08:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:o0mp61112tdackv3qg8iaolkt4ih9euno7@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
And Elroy wonders why I'm angry in my recent posts. Are you at all
aware of what's going on in Africa regarding AIDS?
I am, in part. It seems that some researchers who studied African
hookers found around 5% of them that seem to be immune from
AIDS. Their bodies produce certain t-cells, iirc, that seek out and
attack the AIDS virus before it can take over. They're hoping to be
able to use that info to come up with a vaccine that could help to
eradicate it once and for all. All thanks to hard work by
scientists, not by prayers to some non-existant god who does
nothing to help people.
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
They didn't accomplish their discoveries by prayer, Diana.
No. And I didn't say they had. I'm not the one who is claiming that theists
cannot be rational and effective scientists here.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 04:11:23 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:kkcbe.4274$Nc.1667@trnddc05:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:1114450426.252b45d5563025adc3b11f4af70bb916@teranews...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:lj8be.5940$Nc.1897@trnddc08:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:o0mp61112tdackv3qg8iaolkt4ih9euno7@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
And Elroy wonders why I'm angry in my recent posts. Are you at all
aware of what's going on in Africa regarding AIDS?
I am, in part. It seems that some researchers who studied African
hookers found around 5% of them that seem to be immune from
AIDS. Their bodies produce certain t-cells, iirc, that seek out
and attack the AIDS virus before it can take over. They're hoping
to be able to use that info to come up with a vaccine that could
help to eradicate it once and for all. All thanks to hard work by
scientists, not by prayers to some non-existant god who does
nothing to help people.
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
They didn't accomplish their discoveries by prayer, Diana.
No. And I didn't say they had. I'm not the one who is claiming that
theists cannot be rational and effective scientists here.
I think the argument is that *theism* does not make for rational or
effective science. To be an effective scientist you have to check your
religion at the lab door.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 05:40:05 PM |
|
|
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:1114463483.32535ce61303cb06f09924a9718fd8c1@teranews...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:kkcbe.4274$Nc.1667@trnddc05:
<snip to>
I think the argument is that *theism* does not make for rational or
effective science. To be an effective scientist you have to check your
religion at the lab door.
No, actually, you don't.
Indeed, to say so is offering a false dichotomy, Fred. There ARE more
options than Science OR Religion, y'know. Really.
True, one can decide that everything the preachers tell you is 'true' no
matter what scientific evidence says. That's really rather silly,
considering that most religions believe that God created everything. Doesn't
it make sense that getting your information first hand (through examining
the creation itself, rather than second hand through the words of
hunter-gatherers who had NO clue what, say, tectonic plates are) is probably
a good idea? One can also decide that science sees all and knows all and
settles matters of why as well as what----and no reasonable scientist would
agree with a statement as stupid as that. Science simply does not address
the question of 'why'.
OR, one could say that religion and science are simply different fields of
study, that will, eventually, coalesce into a whole---but until that time,
throwing one out in favor of the other is like throwing the blue puzzle
piece in the garbage because it doesn't go with the tree in the corner.
Whether you call it 'different magesteria' or 'apples and oranges" or simply
"we don't need to throw everything we know about weeding a garden in order
to learn how to fly a plane". However you want to put it, like "science is
'how', religion is 'why'", the idea is the same.
ARE there theists who use the bible as a science text? Sure there are. I
don't agree with them. THOSE theists might have a problem. However, I'd say
that most theists are quite aware that a book that tells us that rabbits
chew their cud and refers to the 'four corners of the earth' might be a
little scientifically outdated. But then again, the bible isn't SUPPOSED to
be a science text.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 06:49:29 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:9lebe.3024$Yc.2202@trnddc06:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:1114463483.32535ce61303cb06f09924a9718fd8c1@teranews...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:kkcbe.4274$Nc.1667@trnddc05:
<snip to>
I think the argument is that *theism* does not make for rational or
effective science. To be an effective scientist you have to check
your religion at the lab door.
No, actually, you don't.
Yes, actually, you do. I said *check your religion at the lab door*, not
abandon it entirely.
Indeed, to say so is offering a false dichotomy, Fred. There ARE more
options than Science OR Religion, y'know. Really.
Not in a laboratory.
True, one can decide that everything the preachers tell you is 'true'
no matter what scientific evidence says. That's really rather silly,
considering that most religions believe that God created everything.
Doesn't it make sense that getting your information first hand
(through examining the creation itself, rather than second hand
through the words of hunter-gatherers who had NO clue what, say,
tectonic plates are) is probably a good idea? One can also decide that
science sees all and knows all and settles matters of why as well as
what----and no reasonable scientist would agree with a statement as
stupid as that. Science simply does not address the question of 'why'.
OR, one could say that religion and science are simply different
fields of study, that will, eventually, coalesce into a whole---but
until that time, throwing one out in favor of the other is like
throwing the blue puzzle piece in the garbage because it doesn't go
with the tree in the corner. Whether you call it 'different
magesteria' or 'apples and oranges" or simply "we don't need to throw
everything we know about weeding a garden in order to learn how to fly
a plane". However you want to put it, like "science is 'how', religion
is 'why'", the idea is the same.
ARE there theists who use the bible as a science text? Sure there are.
I don't agree with them. THOSE theists might have a problem. However,
I'd say that most theists are quite aware that a book that tells us
that rabbits chew their cud and refers to the 'four corners of the
earth' might be a little scientifically outdated. But then again, the
bible isn't SUPPOSED to be a science text.
You're not arguing with what I said, anyway, Diana.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 12:10:04 PM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
And Elroy wonders why I'm angry in my recent posts. Are you at all
aware of what's going on in Africa regarding AIDS?
I am, in part. It seems that some researchers who studied African
hookers found around 5% of them that seem to be immune from
AIDS. Their bodies produce certain t-cells, iirc, that seek out and
attack the AIDS virus before it can take over. They're hoping to be
able to use that info to come up with a vaccine that could help to
eradicate it once and for all. All thanks to hard work by scientists,
not by prayers to some non-existant god who does
nothing to help people.
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
If they are, I'm sure they must subscribe to the "God helps those who
help themselves" type theology -- meaning they don't wait around
and waste time praying for their god to fix the problems in the world.
They're probably deists at best, imo.
"It's surely a good thing that God likes certain African hookers,
otherwise we'd never have found a cure for AIDS," type thinking is way
off the wall for any rational scientist or theist, imo.
If some actual omnipotent god cared about humans, and didn't want them
to suffer with diseases such as cancer and aids and a bunch of others,
it could simply wish them all away, right? No need to even interfere
with human free will at all, since bacteria and viruses aren't
actually under the control of any human people and they don't actually
wish those things on themselves and others...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
25 Apr 2005 03:21:51 PM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:ad7q61tnq0immku48pqg23phqgmir033v8@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
And Elroy wonders why I'm angry in my recent posts. Are you at all
aware of what's going on in Africa regarding AIDS?
I am, in part. It seems that some researchers who studied African
hookers found around 5% of them that seem to be immune from
AIDS. Their bodies produce certain t-cells, iirc, that seek out and
attack the AIDS virus before it can take over. They're hoping to be
able to use that info to come up with a vaccine that could help to
eradicate it once and for all. All thanks to hard work by scientists,
not by prayers to some non-existant god who does
nothing to help people.
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
If they are, I'm sure they must subscribe to the "God helps those who
help themselves" type theology -- meaning they don't wait around
and waste time praying for their god to fix the problems in the world.
They're probably deists at best, imo.
Elroy, *I'M" one of those "God helps those who help themselves" people.
Indeed, most Mormons are, and deists we definately are NOT. ;-)
We are suspenders and belt people. When we get sick, we call the doctor AND
the Elders. Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.
"It's surely a good thing that God likes certain African hookers,
otherwise we'd never have found a cure for AIDS," type thinking is way
off the wall for any rational scientist or theist, imo.
I don't know anybody who thinks that, do you?
If some actual omnipotent god cared about humans, and didn't want them
to suffer with diseases such as cancer and aids and a bunch of others,
it could simply wish them all away, right?
Why? Wouldn't that depend entirely on what the purpose of this life was? I
mean, if all we are is a bunch of pampered pets who must not be allowed to
get out of the front yard and learn anything, I suppose you might have a
point. However, if the point is that we have to learn to accept the
consequences of our freely chosen actions, and that lunch ain't free, what
then?
No need to even interfere
with human free will at all, since bacteria and viruses aren't
actually under the control of any human people and they don't actually
wish those things on themselves and others...
Except that the AIDS epidemic, for instance, is very much the result of
HUMAN choices. It frankly didn't cause a whole lot of trouble in the
population it's used to/began with. (shrug)
You are dealing with the 'problem of evil' thing, and quite frankly, when
you do that with any specific religion/belief system, you really need to
take that belief system in its own context. Yours (in regard to the above)
seems to be that God created us for no other purpose than to live on the
planet, worship Him, either go to Heaven and continue to worship Him or go
to hell and suffer eternally. So when you ask the above question, you are
actually begging a bigger one. Why DID God create us? You have to pose your
question in light of the answer to that.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
26 Apr 2005 09:54:54 AM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
If they are, I'm sure they must subscribe to the "God helps those who
help themselves" type theology -- meaning they don't wait around
and waste time praying for their god to fix the problems in the world.
They're probably deists at best, imo.
Elroy, *I'M" one of those "God helps those who help themselves" people.
Indeed, most Mormons are, and deists we definately are NOT. ;-)
We are suspenders and belt people. When we get sick, we call the doctor
AND the Elders.
If you left the Elders out of things, do you actually think it would
make any difference?
Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.
What things does he actually deal with that you can tell for sure?
If some actual omnipotent god cared about humans, and didn't want them
to suffer with diseases such as cancer and aids and a bunch of others,
it could simply wish them all away, right?
Why? Wouldn't that depend entirely on what the purpose of this life was?
Why does there need to be a purpose to life beyond living it?
I mean, if all we are is a bunch of pampered pets who must not be allowed
to get out of the front yard and learn anything, I suppose you might have a
point.
How would your god keep people from getting out of the front yard?
However, if the point is that we have to learn to accept the consequences
of our freely chosen actions, and that lunch ain't free, what then?
Then it's what I think most atheists such as myself believe, which is
that humans are just another species of animal which are part of the
food chain, and we have to try to compete with other animals for food
and territory, etc...
No need to even interfere with human free will at all, since bacteria and
viruses aren't actually under the control of any human people and they
don't actually wish those things on themselves and others...
Except that the AIDS epidemic, for instance, is very much the result of
HUMAN choices. It frankly didn't cause a whole lot of trouble in the
population it's used to/began with. (shrug)
What do you mean by it not causing trouble in the original population?
You are dealing with the 'problem of evil' thing, and quite frankly, when
you do that with any specific religion/belief system, you really need to
take that belief system in its own context.
When I do that, I come away laughing at the superstitious reasons for
things like diseases and why they exist. Scientifically, I believe
they exist because they're just another part of the natural food
chain, and that they evolve over time just like we human animals have
evolved over time. No angry gods or vengeful devils are needed to
explain anything...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
26 Apr 2005 01:46:02 PM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:0rks61lc7v4p3kmrjeccldh9tdcmaa568b@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.
If they are, I'm sure they must subscribe to the "God helps those who
help themselves" type theology -- meaning they don't wait around
and waste time praying for their god to fix the problems in the world.
They're probably deists at best, imo.
Elroy, *I'M" one of those "God helps those who help themselves" people.
Indeed, most Mormons are, and deists we definately are NOT. ;-)
We are suspenders and belt people. When we get sick, we call the doctor
AND the Elders.
If you left the Elders out of things, do you actually think it would
make any difference?
Could. Shoot, Elroy, even you know that it is a medical FACT that one's
attitude makes a great deal of difference in the course of many diseases.
Hope is a key factor in many treatments.
Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.
What things does he actually deal with that you can tell for sure?
That which we cannot, basically.
If some actual omnipotent god cared about humans, and didn't want them
to suffer with diseases such as cancer and aids and a bunch of others,
it could simply wish them all away, right?
Why? Wouldn't that depend entirely on what the purpose of this life was?
Why does there need to be a purpose to life beyond living it?
If the only life we have is THIS one, then I suppose you could say that
there need not be. However, if you consider that this life might not be all
there is, then we have a whole new situation, don't we?
On the other hand, I think that there should be a purpose to life over and
above 'living it'. Some greater purpose, some accomplishment, some aim,
some....something. There should be some use to existance. Even those things
that are simply beautiful, and not much else, have use; for their sheer
beauty is appreciated by those who view it. What is the purpose of a work of
art that is never seen?
I mean, if all we are is a bunch of pampered pets who must not be allowed
to get out of the front yard and learn anything, I suppose you might
have a
point.
How would your god keep people from getting out of the front yard?
He doesn't. Which is the point. AND the problem with those who think that
God is responsible for all the evil in the world. God does NOT keep us from
leaving the yard. He points out where the fence is, tells us why the fence
is there, shows us what's on the other side, but if we want to check it out
personally, fine, on hour heads be it.
However, if the point is that we have to learn to accept the consequences
of our freely chosen actions, and that lunch ain't free, what then?
Then it's what I think most atheists such as myself believe, which is
that humans are just another species of animal which are part of the
food chain, and we have to try to compete with other animals for food
and territory, etc...
We are that, too.
No need to even interfere with human free will at all, since bacteria
and
viruses aren't actually under the control of any human people and they
don't actually wish those things on themselves and others...
Except that the AIDS epidemic, for instance, is very much the result of
HUMAN choices. It frankly didn't cause a whole lot of trouble in the
population it's used to/began with. (shrug)
What do you mean by it not causing trouble in the original population?
In the first primate population, HIV is not a fatal disease. Indeed, it's
hardly even an annoyance. It is only when it crossed species, and eventually
got to US---and one very stupid bisexual sailor decided to come to the US
and spread the wealth--that it started to cause problems. Since this species
crossing was (according to most of the evidence/stories) the result of the
human capture of monkeys....well, GOD didn't do that, people did.
Unfortunately, viruses don't care much if the act that transmits them is
innocent, ignorant or of just pure evil; if the door is open, they'll enter.
You are dealing with the 'problem of evil' thing, and quite frankly, when
you do that with any specific religion/belief system, you really need to
take that belief system in its own context.
When I do that, I come away laughing at the superstitious reasons for
things like diseases and why they exist. Scientifically, I believe
they exist because they're just another part of the natural food
chain, and that they evolve over time just like we human animals have
evolved over time. No angry gods or vengeful devils are needed to
explain anything...
Nor have I attempted to do that, you will notice.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
27 Apr 2005 07:32:01 AM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.
What things does he actually deal with that you can tell for sure?
That which we cannot, basically.
Like what? And how can you tell that he's actually dealing with them
instead of just letting things happen without any interference?
Humans certainly can't control things like the weather and earthquakes
and tsunamis, so are those things actually being controlled by your
god, or does he just let them happen without doing anything about
them?
If some actual omnipotent god cared about humans, and didn't want them
to suffer with diseases such as cancer and aids and a bunch of others,
it could simply wish them all away, right?
Why? Wouldn't that depend entirely on what the purpose of this life was?
Why does there need to be a purpose to life beyond living it?
If the only life we have is THIS one, then I suppose you could say that
there need not be. However, if you consider that this life might not be all
there is, then we have a whole new situation, don't we?
On the other hand, I think that there should be a purpose to life over and
above 'living it'. Some greater purpose, some accomplishment, some aim,
some....something. There should be some use to existance. Even those things
that are simply beautiful, and not much else, have use; for their sheer
beauty is appreciated by those who view it. What is the purpose of a work of
art that is never seen?
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
27 Apr 2005 09:11:28 AM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:s31v61d2ru9bjalseem7mhief4ecmp1m0g@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.
What things does he actually deal with that you can tell for sure?
That which we cannot, basically.
Like what? And how can you tell that he's actually dealing with them
instead of just letting things happen without any interference?
Humans certainly can't control things like the weather and earthquakes
and tsunamis, so are those things actually being controlled by your
god, or does he just let them happen without doing anything about
them?
I believe, personally, that the planet was created to work as it works; the
laws of physics/nature deal with things just fine without micromanagement.
For us, people, the idea is that we get help dealing with the way things
work; help to make the decisions, help to deal with the consequences of
them, and yes, the odd miracle or two.
As for how I can tell, well, (shrug) personal experience. You don't believe
in the reality of the personal, subjective, deep down and impossible to
confuse with anything else spiritual experience in answer to prayer. I do.
If some actual omnipotent god cared about humans, and didn't want them
to suffer with diseases such as cancer and aids and a bunch of others,
it could simply wish them all away, right?
Why? Wouldn't that depend entirely on what the purpose of this life
was?
Why does there need to be a purpose to life beyond living it?
If the only life we have is THIS one, then I suppose you could say that
there need not be. However, if you consider that this life might not be
all
there is, then we have a whole new situation, don't we?
On the other hand, I think that there should be a purpose to life over
and
above 'living it'. Some greater purpose, some accomplishment, some aim,
some....something. There should be some use to existance. Even those
things
that are simply beautiful, and not much else, have use; for their sheer
beauty is appreciated by those who view it. What is the purpose of a work
of
art that is never seen?
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it? (not that I disagree with you,
mind you, in fact, you pretty much nailed what I think it is too, for the
most part--it's just that I believe we have more time to learn things in
than you do)
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
27 Apr 2005 10:39:50 AM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.
What things does he actually deal with that you can tell for sure?
That which we cannot, basically.
Like what? And how can you tell that he's actually dealing with them
instead of just letting things happen without any interference?
Humans certainly can't control things like the weather and earthquakes
and tsunamis, so are those things actually being controlled by your
god, or does he just let them happen without doing anything about
them?
I believe, personally, that the planet was created to work as it works; the
laws of physics/nature deal with things just fine without micromanagement.
That sounds pretty deistic to me. Where does any type of
macro-management begin or end?
For us, people, the idea is that we get help dealing with the way things
work; help to make the decisions, help to deal with the consequences of
them, and yes, the odd miracle or two.
Humans are too stupid then, all by themselves, to deal with life and
the sometimes harsh realities of all the things that go on, according
to your theology?
As for how I can tell, well, (shrug) personal experience. You don't believe
in the reality of the personal, subjective, deep down and impossible to
confuse with anything else spiritual experience in answer to prayer. I do.
I think that most religious people "count the hits" and "ignore the
misses," when it comes to their prayers being answered or not.
For example, there's no doubt that billions and billions of religious
people have prayed for world-wide peace over the centuries, but all
those prayers have failed, one after the other, down to this day.
They discard all those failed prayers into the bucket of some
"mysterious unanswered" prayer bucket or something...
Injecting religions into the picture only makes things worse, imo,
since people tend to fight over them, and demonize people who belong
to some different religion than they do, and are willing to kill or be
killed in the name of their religions...
<snip>
On the other hand, I think that there should be a purpose to life over
and above 'living it'. Some greater purpose, some accomplishment, some aim,
some....something. There should be some use to existance. Even those
things that are simply beautiful, and not much else, have use; for their sheer
beauty is appreciated by those who view it. What is the purpose of a work
of art that is never seen?
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it, digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
(not that I disagree with you, mind you, in fact, you pretty much nailed what
I think it is too, for the most part--it's just that I believe we have more time to
learn things in than you do)
Sure you do. You think people can learn and experience things after
they're dead...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
27 Apr 2005 11:31:44 AM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:54bv611nj0ho9p1uplb7hrtq4ga0oi2v3q@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.
What things does he actually deal with that you can tell for sure?
That which we cannot, basically.
Like what? And how can you tell that he's actually dealing with them
instead of just letting things happen without any interference?
Humans certainly can't control things like the weather and earthquakes
and tsunamis, so are those things actually being controlled by your
god, or does he just let them happen without doing anything about
them?
I believe, personally, that the planet was created to work as it works;
the
laws of physics/nature deal with things just fine without
micromanagement.
That sounds pretty deistic to me. Where does any type of
macro-management begin or end?
I am a wee bit deistic, I guess, in that I believe that God does NOT
micromanage. ;-) However, I also believe that He allows US to micromanage
all we want to.
Think of radiation from the sun. It's there, always there, but people can
only use it to make energy by actually doing something; building some device
to collect and convert it, or if all they want is a tan, simply going out
and being open to it. ;-) The idea is, it's there, it's up to US whether we
use it or not.
Of course, analogies only go so far.
For us, people, the idea is that we get help dealing with the way things
work; help to make the decisions, help to deal with the consequences of
them, and yes, the odd miracle or two.
Humans are too stupid then, all by themselves, to deal with life and
the sometimes harsh realities of all the things that go on, according
to your theology?
Were you being stupid when you went to your father to ask for help when you
were in over your head? To me, there is no difference; I will ask my father
the rocket scientist to help me with math. I will ask my Heavenly Father for
help in understanding other things. To me, the epitome of 'stupid' is
insisting that one never needs help, or to learn new things, or expert
advice, or simply emotional support. Are you stupid when you ask other
people for such things?
Well, if that's not being stupid, why is it stupid to ask a deity for
additional help, given that the deity is SUPPOSED to be wiser than we are?
As for how I can tell, well, (shrug) personal experience. You don't
believe
in the reality of the personal, subjective, deep down and impossible to
confuse with anything else spiritual experience in answer to prayer. I
do.
I think that most religious people "count the hits" and "ignore the
misses," when it comes to their prayers being answered or not.
Sometimes.
For example, there's no doubt that billions and billions of religious
people have prayed for world-wide peace over the centuries, but all
those prayers have failed, one after the other, down to this day.
Mostly because we have this problem with free will. ;-) It's not really
helpful to ask God to pull someone ELSE'S strings, especially if you don't
want Him pulling YOURS. A much better prayer would be "Heavenly Father, help
me to know what *I* can do to make the world a better, more peaceful and
just place". THAT prayer has a chance of being answered.
They discard all those failed prayers into the bucket of some
"mysterious unanswered" prayer bucket or something...
Or they are asking for the wrong things, or they are being answered
'no'....The problem with praying for world peace is this: if EVERYBODY
prayed for world peace, it would be achieved, because everybody would be too
busy praying to swing swords and fire missiles. However, most people do the
ritual, get up from their knees and then do something that pisses someone
else off. (sigh)
Injecting religions into the picture only makes things worse, imo,
since people tend to fight over them, and demonize people who belong
to some different religion than they do, and are willing to kill or be
killed in the name of their religions...
Elroy, the same thing would happen if there weren't any religions. Focusing
on getting rid of religion is focusing on the wrong thing, like figuring
that getting rid of guns will eliminate murder. The problem isn't religion.
IT's PEOPLE. People want power. They want things. They want land..and if
other people have what they want, they will use anything handy as an excuse
to get it. If a religion is handy, they will use that. If it isn't, they'll
use something else. Surely recent history has proven that, if nothing else!
In looking at most religions, the basic doctrine of them, I see that if the
people were actually paying attention to what they profess to believe, there
would be world peace, really. The problem is, people corrupt them. All of
them, like the guy that uses a screw driver to stab his wife to death. No
screwdriver has ever been made with the intent that it should be a weapon:
it is supposed to be used to build things. Put things together. Fix things.
But one can be misused.
And this is the thing about religion. Why blame the religion for the actions
of those who break its rules? Do you blame the stop sign for the death that
resulted when a man runs it?
<snip>
On the other hand, I think that there should be a purpose to life over
and above 'living it'. Some greater purpose, some accomplishment, some
aim,
some....something. There should be some use to existance. Even those
things that are simply beautiful, and not much else, have use; for
their sheer
beauty is appreciated by those who view it. What is the purpose of a
work
of art that is never seen?
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it,
for whom? Ultimately, that is...
digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
to what ultimate end?
(not that I disagree with you, mind you, in fact, you pretty much nailed
what
I think it is too, for the most part--it's just that I believe we have
more time to
learn things in than you do)
Sure you do. You think people can learn and experience things after
they're dead...
Yes. I do, actually. Of course, your 'dead' and mine are defined a wee bit
differently....;-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
27 Apr 2005 10:48:07 PM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
For us, people, the idea is that we get help dealing with the way things
work; help to make the decisions, help to deal with the consequences of
them, and yes, the odd miracle or two.
Humans are too stupid then, all by themselves, to deal with life and
the sometimes harsh realities of all the things that go on, according
to your theology?
Were you being stupid when you went to your father to ask for help when
you were in over your head?
No, but I deal with an actual living person at those times, not some
make-believe invisible entity.
To me, there is no difference;
To me there is. My human father actually exists and I can talk to him
and get actual advice or help from him, at least while he's still
alive. Once he's dead, though, that's the end of that...
I will ask my father the rocket scientist to help me with math. I will ask my
Heavenly Father for help in understanding other things. To me, the epitome
of 'stupid' is insisting that one never needs help, or to learn new things, or
expert advice, or simply emotional support.
Are you stupid when you ask other people for such things?
Of course not, but there's a difference between asking real living
people for help or advice, and asking some invisible god whom you
pretend exists out there or up there somewhere.
Well, if that's not being stupid, why is it stupid to ask a deity for
additional help, given that the deity is SUPPOSED to be wiser than we
are?
Because nobody can actually see or hear the deity speaking to you or
anyone else?
You just imagine or pretend that your deity is speaking to you, when
in fact it's just you doing the talking and advice-giving to yourself.
For example, there's no doubt that billions and billions of religious
people have prayed for world-wide peace over the centuries, but all
those prayers have failed, one after the other, down to this day.
Mostly because we have this problem with free will. ;-)
It's not really helpful to ask God to pull someone ELSE'S strings, especially
if you don't want Him pulling YOURS. A much better prayer would be
"Heavenly Father, help me to know what *I* can do to make the world a better,
more peaceful and just place". THAT prayer has a chance of being answered.
What you could do is ditch your religion and put an end to something
that only causes more people like you to be persecuted by somebody
with a different religious belief. It's what all you religiobots
should do, but it'll never happen...
Injecting religions into the picture only makes things worse, imo,
since people tend to fight over them, and demonize people who belong
to some different religion than they do, and are willing to kill or be
killed in the name of their religions...
Elroy, the same thing would happen if there weren't any religions.
Some of it would still happen, but it'd be one less thing for people
to fight and kill each other over.
<snip>
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it,
for whom? Ultimately, that is...
For our descendants and the next generations of people.
digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
to what ultimate end?
A more informed and educated planet of people.
(not that I disagree with you, mind you, in fact, you pretty much nailed
what I think it is too, for the most part--it's just that I believe we have
more time to learn things in than you do)
Sure you do. You think people can learn and experience things after
they're dead...
Yes. I do, actually. Of course, your 'dead' and mine are defined a wee bit
differently....;-)
I don't suppose you like to explain how a soul can live without a
brain, would you? Where are the memories stored when the dead
person enters heaven?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
28 Apr 2005 09:25:21 AM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:8al071pla1h67t8oelssb19o40jct36leo@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
For us, people, the idea is that we get help dealing with the way
things
work; help to make the decisions, help to deal with the consequences of
them, and yes, the odd miracle or two.
Humans are too stupid then, all by themselves, to deal with life and
the sometimes harsh realities of all the things that go on, according
to your theology?
Were you being stupid when you went to your father to ask for help when
you were in over your head?
No, but I deal with an actual living person at those times, not some
make-believe invisible entity.
Well, to theists, God is as real as their parents. And since we are dealing
with what THEY think of Who God is, not what you do....
To me, there is no difference;
To me there is. My human father actually exists and I can talk to him
and get actual advice or help from him, at least while he's still
alive. Once he's dead, though, that's the end of that...
If I didn't believe that your father existed, would you then be 'too stupid,
all by [yourself] to deal with life and the sometimes harsh realities of all
the things that go on...' by asking him for advice? Are your actions in
asking your father for aid justified by whether *I* believe he lives? Or,
whether I believe it or not, is asking your father for advice a good idea?
I will ask my father the rocket scientist to help me with math. I will
ask my
Heavenly Father for help in understanding other things. To me, the
epitome
of 'stupid' is insisting that one never needs help, or to learn new
things, or
expert advice, or simply emotional support.
Are you stupid when you ask other people for such things?
Of course not, but there's a difference between asking real living
people for help or advice, and asking some invisible god whom you
pretend exists out there or up there somewhere.
I don't pretend, Elroy. I really believe it; and the wisdom or lack of it in
going to Him does NOT depend upon whether you believe it. Not
theologically......OR logically. You don't need my approval to validate your
opinions, y'know.
Well, if that's not being stupid, why is it stupid to ask a deity for
additional help, given that the deity is SUPPOSED to be wiser than we
are?
Because nobody can actually see or hear the deity speaking to you or
anyone else?
You have changed the subject from whether it is advisable to go to a deity
for aid, to claiming that the deity doesn't exist. Elroy, those are two
entirely different subjects.
You just imagine or pretend that your deity is speaking to you, when
in fact it's just you doing the talking and advice-giving to yourself.
but I don't think so, Elroy, and why should your opinion guide my actions? I
don't ask that you be guided by mine, y'know.
For example, there's no doubt that billions and billions of religious
people have prayed for world-wide peace over the centuries, but all
those prayers have failed, one after the other, down to this day.
Mostly because we have this problem with free will. ;-)
It's not really helpful to ask God to pull someone ELSE'S strings,
especially
if you don't want Him pulling YOURS. A much better prayer would be
"Heavenly Father, help me to know what *I* can do to make the world a
better,
more peaceful and just place". THAT prayer has a chance of being
answered.
What you could do is ditch your religion and put an end to something
that only causes more people like you to be persecuted by somebody
with a different religious belief. It's what all you religiobots
should do, but it'll never happen...
Well, my particular religion doesn't have a history of persecuting other
religions...but then that would spoil your point, so never mind...
Injecting religions into the picture only makes things worse, imo,
since people tend to fight over them, and demonize people who belong
to some different religion than they do, and are willing to kill or be
killed in the name of their religions...
Elroy, the same thing would happen if there weren't any religions.
Some of it would still happen, but it'd be one less thing for people
to fight and kill each other over.
SOME of it would happen? Elroy, I'm not going into the detailed history of
the twentieth century, but DANG, man!
<snip>
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it,
for whom? Ultimately, that is...
For our descendants and the next generations of people.
And...???? Who, ultimately, for?
digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
to what ultimate end?
A more informed and educated planet of people.
And after that?
(not that I disagree with you, mind you, in fact, you pretty much
nailed
what I think it is too, for the most part--it's just that I believe we
have
more time to learn things in than you do)
Sure you do. You think people can learn and experience things after
they're dead...
Yes. I do, actually. Of course, your 'dead' and mine are defined a wee
bit
differently....;-)
I don't suppose you like to explain how a soul can live without a
brain, would you?
A 'soul' can't, since the definition of 'soul' is spirit and body together.
(OK, it's sometimes used interchangably with 'spirit', but I like to be
precise when it serves me. ;-) )
Where are the memories stored when the dead
person enters heaven?
I haven't a clue. So? When I was fourteen I had no clue that forty years
later I would be typing my papers on my own personal computer and have a
fair understanding of the difference between REM and RAM, either.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
28 Apr 2005 11:45:49 AM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Are you stupid when you ask other people for such things?
Of course not, but there's a difference between asking real living
people for help or advice, and asking some invisible god whom you
pretend exists out there or up there somewhere.
I don't pretend, Elroy. I really believe it; and the wisdom or lack of it in
going to Him does NOT depend upon whether you believe it. Not
theologically......OR logically. You don't need my approval to validate your
opinions, y'know.
Yeah yeah...
Well, if that's not being stupid, why is it stupid to ask a deity for
additional help, given that the deity is SUPPOSED to be wiser than we
are?
Because nobody can actually see or hear the deity speaking to you or
anyone else?
You have changed the subject from whether it is advisable to go to a deity
for aid, to claiming that the deity doesn't exist. Elroy, those are two
entirely different subjects.
No, it's the same thing.
You just imagine or pretend that your deity is speaking to you, when
in fact it's just you doing the talking and advice-giving to yourself.
but I don't think so, Elroy, and why should your opinion guide my actions? I
don't ask that you be guided by mine, y'know.
I'm sure you're way too old to change your mind. Old dogs and new
tricks and all that...
For example, there's no doubt that billions and billions of religious
people have prayed for world-wide peace over the centuries, but all
those prayers have failed, one after the other, down to this day.
Mostly because we have this problem with free will. ;-)
It's not really helpful to ask God to pull someone ELSE'S strings,
especially if you don't want Him pulling YOURS. A much better prayer
would be "Heavenly Father, help me to know what *I* can do to make
the world a better, more peaceful and just place". THAT prayer has
a chance of being answered.
What you could do is ditch your religion and put an end to something
that only causes more people like you to be persecuted by somebody
with a different religious belief. It's what all you religiobots
should do, but it'll never happen...
Well, my particular religion doesn't have a history of persecuting other
religions...but then that would spoil your point, so never mind...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your religion goes all the way back to
the Old Testament, which is full of the persecution of the religions
of other people.
<snip>
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it,
for whom? Ultimately, that is...
For our descendants and the next generations of people.
And...???? Who, ultimately, for?
That's it. Why isn't that enough?
digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
to what ultimate end?
A more informed and educated planet of people.
And after that?
That's it, unless you want to get into space travel and
colonization...
(not that I disagree with you, mind you, in fact, you pretty much
nailed what I think it is too, for the most part--it's just that I believe
we have more time to learn things in than you do)
Sure you do. You think people can learn and experience things after
they're dead...
Yes. I do, actually. Of course, your 'dead' and mine are defined a wee
bit differently....;-)
I don't suppose you like to explain how a soul can live without a
brain, would you?
A 'soul' can't, since the definition of 'soul' is spirit and body together.
(OK, it's sometimes used interchangably with 'spirit', but I like to be
precise when it serves me. ;-) )
Okay, substitute "spirit" for "soul" in my question. :)
Where are the memories stored when the dead
person enters heaven?
I haven't a clue. So?
So a red flag should go up and your rational mind should refuse to
believe in such a thing...
When I was fourteen I had no clue that forty years later I would be typing
my papers on my own personal computer and have a fair understanding
of the difference between REM and RAM, either.
Did you mean ROM, instead of REM?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
28 Apr 2005 02:07:09 PM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:jj2271tg5lb1k3sab7hotcg25la7jbo6hn@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Are you stupid when you ask other people for such things?
Of course not, but there's a difference between asking real living
people for help or advice, and asking some invisible god whom you
pretend exists out there or up there somewhere.
I don't pretend, Elroy. I really believe it; and the wisdom or lack of it
in
going to Him does NOT depend upon whether you believe it. Not
theologically......OR logically. You don't need my approval to validate
your
opinions, y'know.
Yeah yeah...
Well, if that's not being stupid, why is it stupid to ask a deity for
additional help, given that the deity is SUPPOSED to be wiser than we
are?
Because nobody can actually see or hear the deity speaking to you or
anyone else?
You have changed the subject from whether it is advisable to go to a
deity
for aid, to claiming that the deity doesn't exist. Elroy, those are two
entirely different subjects.
No, it's the same thing.
No, it's only the same thing if both agree that a deity doesn't exist.
You just imagine or pretend that your deity is speaking to you, when
in fact it's just you doing the talking and advice-giving to yourself.
but I don't think so, Elroy, and why should your opinion guide my
actions? I
don't ask that you be guided by mine, y'know.
I'm sure you're way too old to change your mind. Old dogs and new
tricks and all that...
Actually, I'm finding that the older one gets, the more information one has,
the more flexible one's thinking is. On the other hand, having lived as long
as I have, one finds that one doesn't have enough time to revisit ALL one's
previous decisions.
For example, there's no doubt that billions and billions of religious
people have prayed for world-wide peace over the centuries, but all
those prayers have failed, one after the other, down to this day.
Mostly because we have this problem with free will. ;-)
It's not really helpful to ask God to pull someone ELSE'S strings,
especially if you don't want Him pulling YOURS. A much better prayer
would be "Heavenly Father, help me to know what *I* can do to make
the world a better, more peaceful and just place". THAT prayer has
a chance of being answered.
What you could do is ditch your religion and put an end to something
that only causes more people like you to be persecuted by somebody
with a different religious belief. It's what all you religiobots
should do, but it'll never happen...
Well, my particular religion doesn't have a history of persecuting other
religions...but then that would spoil your point, so never mind...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your religion goes all the way back to
the Old Testament, which is full of the persecution of the religions
of other people.
Actually, mine only goes back about a hundred and seventy five years or
so...but (shrug) whatever.
<snip>
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it,
for whom? Ultimately, that is...
For our descendants and the next generations of people.
And...???? Who, ultimately, for?
That's it. Why isn't that enough?
Because it's not. If our purpose is to record stuff for our descendents, who
do THEY record for? And so on? What is the ultimate goal?
digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
to what ultimate end?
A more informed and educated planet of people.
And after that?
That's it, unless you want to get into space travel and
colonization...
Of course I do. ;-) Even so, what for? And no, that's not a leading
question; it's one I think about myself, often enough.
(not that I disagree with you, mind you, in fact, you pretty much
nailed what I think it is too, for the most part--it's just that I
believe
we have more time to learn things in than you do)
Sure you do. You think people can learn and experience things after
they're dead...
Yes. I do, actually. Of course, your 'dead' and mine are defined a wee
bit differently....;-)
I don't suppose you like to explain how a soul can live without a
brain, would you?
A 'soul' can't, since the definition of 'soul' is spirit and body
together.
(OK, it's sometimes used interchangably with 'spirit', but I like to be
precise when it serves me. ;-) )
Okay, substitute "spirit" for "soul" in my question. :)
Where are the memories stored when the dead
person enters heaven?
I haven't a clue. So?
So a red flag should go up and your rational mind should refuse to
believe in such a thing...
When I was fourteen I had no clue that forty years later I would be
typing
my papers on my own personal computer and have a fair understanding
of the difference between REM and RAM, either.
Did you mean ROM, instead of REM?
Yep. (snort) That's funny! Perhaps I should go back to bed and engage in
some REM...
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
28 Apr 2005 07:45:33 PM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Well, my particular religion doesn't have a history of persecuting other
religions...but then that would spoil your point, so never mind...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your religion goes all the way back to
the Old Testament, which is full of the persecution of the religions
of other people.
Actually, mine only goes back about a hundred and seventy five years or
so...but (shrug) whatever.
It's based on the OT, though, which goes back thousands of years.
Exodus 34:12-14
"Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land
where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break
down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their
Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose
name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
<snip>
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it,
for whom? Ultimately, that is...
For our descendants and the next generations of people.
And...???? Who, ultimately, for?
That's it. Why isn't that enough?
Because it's not. If our purpose is to record stuff for our descendents,
who do THEY record for?
For their descendants of course, just like we do.
And so on?
And on and on...
What is the ultimate goal?
The accumulation of knowledge about the universe.
digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
to what ultimate end?
A more informed and educated planet of people.
And after that?
That's it, unless you want to get into space travel and
colonization...
Of course I do. ;-) Even so, what for?
The same as above, plus perhaps the continuation of our species
off-world, in case Earth-bound humans get wiped out by some comet
or asteroid like the one that killed off the dinosaurs and 90% of the
species of the time.
If a huge asteroid is about to smash into the Earth, do you really
think millions and millions of prayers by god-soaked people like you
would really make a difference if you pray hard enough?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
29 Apr 2005 10:33:04 AM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:1ev2719mn64l72cpfc9ei4q26043db4mt8@4ax.com...
Well, my particular religion doesn't have a history of persecuting
other
religions...but then that would spoil your point, so never mind...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your religion goes all the way back to
the Old Testament, which is full of the persecution of the religions
of other people.
Actually, mine only goes back about a hundred and seventy five years or
so...but (shrug) whatever.
It's based on the OT, though, which goes back thousands of years.
Exodus 34:12-14
"Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land
where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break
down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their
Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose
name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
You could have used other prooftexts that were better than this one, y'know.
THIS one is to the Jews themselves, warning them against allowing such
practices to enter THEIR worship practices.
Not to mention that these people were on a mission to conquer; and
conquering leaders who win tend not to write good things about the losers.
;-) Even more are the losers unlikely to write good things about the
winners.
<snip>
I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the
accumulated
knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over
time.
And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?
Record it,
for whom? Ultimately, that is...
For our descendants and the next generations of people.
And...???? Who, ultimately, for?
That's it. Why isn't that enough?
Because it's not. If our purpose is to record stuff for our descendents,
who do THEY record for?
For their descendants of course, just like we do.
And so on?
And on and on...
What is the ultimate goal?
The accumulation of knowledge about the universe.
And what will we DO with it, in the end?
digest it, learn from it, try to enjoy it, etc...
to what ultimate end?
A more informed and educated planet of people.
And after that?
That's it, unless you want to get into space travel and
colonization...
Of course I do. ;-) Even so, what for?
The same as above, plus perhaps the continuation of our species
off-world, in case Earth-bound humans get wiped out by some comet
or asteroid like the one that killed off the dinosaurs and 90% of the
species of the time.
If a huge asteroid is about to smash into the Earth, do you really
think millions and millions of prayers by god-soaked people like you
would really make a difference if you pray hard enough?
No. I do think, however, that getting a bunch of us OFF the planet might.
But you are changing the subject. What's this whole thing FOR?
And again, I'm not attempting to lead you into any sort of rhetorical or
theological 'trap'. It's something I think about from time to time, myself.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
29 Apr 2005 06:09:50 PM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
For our descendants and the next generations of people.
And...???? Who, ultimately, for?
That's it. Why isn't that enough?
Because it's not. If our purpose is to record stuff for our descendents,
who do THEY record for?
For their descendants of course, just like we do.
And so on?
And on and on...
What is the ultimate goal?
The accumulation of knowledge about the universe.
And what will we DO with it, in the end?
Pass it on to the next generations. That's it. EOF.
Je suis fini!
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
29 Apr 2005 08:31:34 PM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:qef571ds4adg82hm3o53iotpn5j5aghd3h@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip to>
And what will we DO with it, in the end?
Pass it on to the next generations. That's it. EOF.
Je suis fini!
Pass on the information.....and the question, too?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
30 Apr 2005 07:52:07 AM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip to>
And what will we DO with it, in the end?
Pass it on to the next generations. That's it. EOF.
Je suis fini!
Pass on the information.....and the question, too?
Your question about in the end? I've already answered it, but you
won't accept the answer, since you refuse to believe that humans are
mortals who all die and cease to exist. Passing on our DNA to our
children and passing on our accumulated knowledge isn't enough for
you, but it is for me, and that's the bottom line.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
30 Apr 2005 09:39:12 AM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:1lv671lh18si3e128isqm9psa0svm5c0r0@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip to>
And what will we DO with it, in the end?
Pass it on to the next generations. That's it. EOF.
Je suis fini!
Pass on the information.....and the question, too?
Your question about in the end? I've already answered it, but you
won't accept the answer, since you refuse to believe that humans are
mortals who all die and cease to exist. Passing on our DNA to our
children and passing on our accumulated knowledge isn't enough for
you, but it is for me, and that's the bottom line.
And here I am, trying to have a transcendental philosophical
conversation...you materialist, you.....(and I mean that in the classic
sense..)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
30 Apr 2005 10:06:21 AM |
|
|
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip to>
And what will we DO with it, in the end?
Pass it on to the next generations. That's it. EOF.
Je suis fini!
Pass on the information.....and the question, too?
Your question about in the end? I've already answered it, but you
won't accept the answer, since you refuse to believe that humans are
mortals who all die and cease to exist. Passing on our DNA to our
children and passing on our accumulated knowledge isn't enough for
you, but it is for me, and that's the bottom line.
And here I am, trying to have a transcendental philosophical
conversation...you materialist, you.....(and I mean that in the classic
sense..)
Even you transcendent afterlife-believers will get wiped out one day,
when the universe expands out into a cold dark nothingness and there's
nothing left to explore and nowhere to exist, or it collapses back in
on itself in a big crunch and then another big bang, wiping out
everything that existed and starting over, including you and your
make-believe spirit or soul and pretended afterlife...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: But *i'm* the bad person |
30 Apr 2005 10:48:19 AM |
|
|
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@sw | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
