Mephisto <mephisto@go.away> wrote in alt.atheism

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:

Mephisto <mephisto@go.away> wrote in message

There is no reason why there should be any 'meaning' in the sense that
you're describing, and that rainbow would still have been there if
nobody had been there to witness it.

Ah, but now we are into Schrodinger's cat territory; it IS the observer
that determines the meaning....even whether something actually happens.

No... it is a fact that the rainbow would still be there.

I agree 100%. Rainbows have existed as long as there has been
rain and the sun, no matter if there were any humans around to see
the rainbows. The idea of some god creating beautiful rainbows
because that god was sorry for drowning people in a flood is just
plain stupid...

If you wiped humanity out tomorrow, stuff like that would not stop.

Exactly. Rainbows, floods, hurricanes, snowstorms, and earthquakes
would all still happen even if there were no so-called "humans" to
observe those things.

We're not talking about spooky aspects of subatomic physics here.
Standard scientific laws still apply.

I wonder how many metaphysical maniacs would disagree with that?

"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
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DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Are you stupid when you ask other people for su ch things?

Of course not, but there's a difference between asking real

people for help or advice, and asking some invisible god whom you
pretend exists out there or up there somewhere.

I don't pretend, Elroy. I really believe it; and the wisdom or

in
going to Him does NOT depend upon whether you believe it. Not
theologically......OR logically. You don't need my approval to

your
opinions, y'know.

Yeah yeah...

Well, if that's not being stupid, why is it stupid to ask a

additional help, given that the deity is SUPPOSED to be wiser

are?

Because nobody can actually see or hear the deity speaking to you

anyon e else?

You have changed the subject from whether it is advisable to go to

deity
for aid, to claiming that the deity doesn't exist. Elroy, those

entirely different subjects.

No, it's the same thing.

No, it's only the same thing if both agree that a deity doesn't

You just imagine or pretend that your deity is speaking to you,

in fact it's just you doing the talking and advice-giving to

but I don't think so, Elroy, and why should your opinion guide my
actions? I
don't ask that you be guided by mine, y'know.

I'm sure you're way too old to change your mind. Old dogs and new
tricks and all that...

Actually, I'm finding that the older one gets, the more information

the more flexible one's thinking is. On the other hand, having lived

as I have, one finds that one doesn't have enough time to revisit ALL

previous decisions.

For example, there's no d oubt that billions and billions of

people have prayed for world-wide peace over the centuries, but

those prayers have failed, one after the other, down to this

Mostly because we have this problem with free wil l. ;-)
It's not really helpful to ask God to pull someone ELSE'S

especially if you don't want Him pulling YOURS. A much better

would be "Heavenly Father, help me to know what *I* can do to

the world a bett er, more peaceful and just place". THAT prayer

a chance of being answered.

What you could do is ditch your religion and put an end to

that only causes more people like you to be persecuted by

with a diff erent religious belief. It's what all you

should do, but it'll never happen...

Well, my particular religion doesn't have a history of persecuting

religions...

but then that would spoil your point, so never mind...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your religion goes all the way back to
the Old Testament, which is full of the persecution of the

of other people.

Actually, mine only goes back about a hundred and seventy five years

so...but (shrug) whatever.

<snip>

I guess for me the higher purpose is exploration and the

knowledge that we build up about our planet and universe over

And what, ultimately, are we to do with it?

Record it,

for whom? Ultimately, that is...

For our descendants and the next generations of people.

And...???? Who, ultimately, for?

That's it. Why isn't that enough?

Because it's not.

If our purpose is to record stuff for our descendents, who
do THEY record for? And so on? What is the ultimate goal?

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Are you stupid when you ask other people for such things?

Of course not, but there's a difference between asking real living
people for help or advic e, and asking some invisible god whom you
pretend exists out there or up there somewhere.

I don't pretend, Elroy. I really believe it; and the wisdom or lack

going to Him does NOT depend upon whether you believe it. Not
theologically......OR logically. You don't need my approval to

opinions, y'know.

Yeah yeah...

Well, if that's not being stupid, why is it stupid to ask a deity

additional help, given that the deity is SUPPOSED to be wiser

are?

Because nobody can actually see or hear the deity speaking to you

anyone else?

You have changed the subject from whether it is advisable to go to

for aid, to claiming that the deity doesn't exist. Elroy, those are

entirely different subjects.

"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
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DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism

A great many of those researchers are theists, Elroy.

If they are, I'm sure they must subscribe to the "God helps those who
help themselves" type theology -- meaning they don't wait around
and waste time praying for their god to fix the problems in the world.
They're probably deists at best, imo.

Elroy, *I'M" one of those "God helps those who help themselves" people.
Indeed, most Mormons are, and deists we definately are NOT. ;-)
We are suspenders and belt people. When we get sick, we call the doctor
AND the Elders.

If you left the Elders out of things, do you actually think it would
make any difference?

Could. Shoot, Elroy, even you know that it is a medical FACT that one's
attitude makes a great deal of difference in the course of many diseases.
Hope is a key factor in many treatments.

Indeed, we believe God takes a very dim view of people who
refuse to do thier own work and expect Him to deal with everything.

What things does he actually deal with that you can tell for sure?

That which we cannot, basically.

If some actual omnipotent god cared about humans, and didn't want them
to suffer with diseases such as cancer and aids and a bunch of others,
it could simply wish them all away, right?

Why? Wouldn't that depend entirely on what the purpose of this life was?

Why does there need to be a purpose to life beyond living it?

If the only life we have is THIS one, then I suppose you could say that
there need not be. However, if you consider that this life might not be all
there is, then we have a whole new situation, don't we?

On the other hand, I think that there should be a purpose to life over and
above 'living it'. Some greater purpose, some accomplishment, some aim,
some....something. There should be some use to existance. Even those things
that are simply beautiful, and not much else, have use; for their sheer
beauty is appreciated by those who view it. What is the purpose of a work of
art that is never seen?

I mean, if all we are is a bunch of pampered pets who must not be allowed
to get out of the front yard and learn anything, I suppose you might
have a
point.

How would your god keep people from getting out of the front yard?

He doesn't. Which is the point. AND the problem with those who think that
God is responsible for all the evil in the world. God does NOT keep us from
leaving the yard. He points out where the fence is, tells us why the fence
is there, shows us what's on the other side, but if we want to check it out
personally, fine, on hour heads be it.

However, if the point is that we have to learn to accept the consequences
of our freely chosen actions, and that lunch ain't free, what then?

Then it's what I think most atheists such as myself believe, which is
that humans are just another species of animal which are part of the
food chain, and we have to try to compete with other animals for food
and territory, etc...

We are that, too.

No need to even interfere with human free will at all, since bacteria
and
viruses aren't actually under the control of any human people and they
don't actually wish those things on themselves and others...

Except that the AIDS epidemic, for instance, is very much the result of
HUMAN choices. It frankly didn't cause a whole lot of trouble in the
population it's used to/began with. (shrug)

What do you mean by it not causing trouble in the original population?

In the first primate population, HIV is not a fatal disease. Indeed, it's
hardly even an annoyance.

It is only when it crossed species, and eventually
got to US---and one very stupid bisexual sailor decided to come to the US
and spread the wealth--that it started to cause problems.

Since this species
crossing was (according to most of the evidence/stories) the result of the
human capture of monkeys....well, GOD didn't do that, people did.

Unfortunately, viruses don't care much if the act that transmits them is
innocent, ignorant or of just pure evil; if the door is open, they'll enter.

You are dealing with the 'problem of evil' thing, and quite frankly, when
you do that with any specific religion/belief system, you really need to
take that belief system in its own context.

When I do that, I come away laughing at the superstitious reasons for
things like diseases and why they exist. Scientifically, I believe
they exist because they're just another part of the natural food
chain, and that they evolve over time just like we human animals have
evolved over time. No angry gods or vengeful devils are needed to
explain anything...

Nor have I attempted to do that, you will notice.

DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message

Neil Kelsey <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message

You're being disingenuous again. You know perfectly well there are
diseases that science has discovered a cure for, and that there has been
progress made on the diseases you list here.

Nobody has ever found a cure for a virus. And HIV is a virus. We can treat
the symptoms. We can cause remissions. But doctors don't even bother to
treat colds or the flu unless the symptoms become life threatening, and
then all they can do is attempt to alleviate those symptoms until our
bodies fight off the illness. That 'triple coctail' that HIV patients get
is quite effective; but you notice that the patients have to take it all
the rest of their abbreviated lives, because AIDS is 100% fatal.
Even the black plague only killed 90%...or was that 75%? Whatever...the
EBOLA virus, the one that is the topic of all the horror movies? YOu have
a chance of living through that if you catch it. You WILL die of AIDS if
you get it. No reprieve, because this virus affects the very immune system
that is supposed to be fighting against it. The only cure, and I do mean
the ONLY one we have, is prevention. There is no vacine for HIV. Nor is
there likely to be one any time soon.

So we should halt all medical research (since there's never been a cure for
a virus) and get people to restrain their sexual urges? Good luck with
that... And where is god in all of this?

"kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:d48td9$q0d$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

I'm confrontational for feeling (and not being able to hide) a

replusion for someone who thinks that the whole AIDS problem in

bugger all to do with the pope since all the folks have to do is

having sex and it's not his fault if the only part they listen to

"don't use condoms" bit.

Er, isn't that pretty much true, though? Just HOW many cases of AIDS

spread through sexual conduct?