Religions > Atheism > Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception.
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Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"John Kelley" |
| Date: |
25 Jan 2004 03:07:04 PM |
| Object: |
Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
25 Jan 2004 03:38:56 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, John Kelley poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
The claim that prayer is effective commits the Naturalistic Fallacy.
http://tinyurl.com/4gbs
Regards,
Josef
Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be nullified on behalf of a
single petitioner, admittedly unworthy.
-- Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "William" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
25 Jan 2004 04:22:50 PM |
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On 25 Jan 2004 13:07:04 -0800, (John Kelley)
wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Another of these cringing sites that try to get round the problems of
unanswered prayers. The following passage (from the above site)
stands on it's own and is in line with other similar passages which
tell christians that all they have to do is ASK and BELIEVE and it
will be done.
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
The fact that christians don't believe it now is their problem. Trying
to twist the words round to mean something else doesn't fool anyone.
William
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
26 Jan 2004 07:49:26 AM |
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William wrote:
On 25 Jan 2004 13:07:04 -0800, (John Kelley)
wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Another of these cringing sites that try to get round the problems of
unanswered prayers. The following passage (from the above site)
stands on it's own and is in line with other similar passages which
tell christians that all they have to do is ASK and BELIEVE and it
will be done.
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:19-20)
HYPERBOLE: "EXAGGERATION FOR EFFECT AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY
(Ex. He's as strong as an ox.) Webster's New World Dictionary.
Obviously Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching, as was customary
practice in New Testament times.
"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away...
and if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it
away." (Matt. 5:29, 30)
"Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt 19:24)
["literally": impossible.]
"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not
notice the log (!) that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your
brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log
in your own eye?" (Matt. 6:7-8)
"Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and never doubt, ... even if you
say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will be
done. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have
faith." (Matt. 21:21)
The fact that christians don't believe it now is their problem. Trying
to twist the words round to mean something else doesn't fool anyone.
Not all Christians are wooden, one-dimensional litealists like
fundamentalists (and many atheists) tend to be. We get the point
without getting hung up on the manner of its expression.
methodios (Denny)
William
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
26 Jan 2004 07:13:19 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:49:26 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
William wrote:
On 25 Jan 2004 13:07:04 -0800, (John Kelley)
wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Another of these cringing sites that try to get round the problems of
unanswered prayers. The following passage (from the above site)
stands on it's own and is in line with other similar passages which
tell christians that all they have to do is ASK and BELIEVE and it
will be done.
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:19-20)
HYPERBOLE: "EXAGGERATION FOR EFFECT AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY
(Ex. He's as strong as an ox.) Webster's New World Dictionary.
Obviously Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching, as was customary
practice in New Testament times.
And which bits are hyperbole and which bits are not?
Did Jesus *literally* rise from the dead or did he have a sereve head
cold that got better?
If the actual words can be read to mean anything - then why do you
need the words at all?
Bibles should be printed with blank pages - then it would be *much*
less confusing - they would still say whatever you want them to say,
just as they do now, but without having any actual words to get in the
way.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
26 Jan 2004 01:48:51 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:49:26 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
William wrote:
On 25 Jan 2004 13:07:04 -0800, (John Kelley)
wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Another of these cringing sites that try to get round the problems of
unanswered prayers. The following passage (from the above site)
stands on it's own and is in line with other similar passages which
tell christians that all they have to do is ASK and BELIEVE and it
will be done.
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:19-20)
HYPERBOLE: "EXAGGERATION FOR EFFECT AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY
(Ex. He's as strong as an ox.) Webster's New World Dictionary.
Obviously Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching, as was customary
practice in New Testament times.
And when it says that Jesus died on the cross, that was also
hyperbole. When it said he rose from the dead, that just meant he was
really sick but recovered unexpectedly fast. That must be the
explanation. It is all hyperbole - or maybe just those parts that
even a fundy can't swallow.
snip
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "William" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
26 Jan 2004 08:18:43 AM |
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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:49:26 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
William wrote:
jkelley@zoomnet.net (John Kelley)wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Another of these cringing sites that try to get round the problems of
unanswered prayers. The following passage (from the above site)
stands on it's own and is in line with other similar passages which
tell christians that all they have to do is ASK and BELIEVE and it
will be done.
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:19-20)
HYPERBOLE: "EXAGGERATION FOR EFFECT AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY
(Ex. He's as strong as an ox.) Webster's New World Dictionary.
Obviously Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching, as was customary
practice in New Testament times.
"if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven"
THAT IS NOT HYPERBOLE.
If non-christians butchered the christian scriptures in the way
christians themselves do it there would be an outcry. If you don't
accept what your founder states - over and over again then - that's
fine. Just don't go round SHOUTING at others who point out your stupid
duplicity.
William
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
26 Jan 2004 01:33:54 PM |
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William wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:49:26 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
William wrote:
jkelley@zoomnet.net (John Kelley)wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Another of these cringing sites that try to get round the problems of
unanswered prayers. The following passage (from the above site)
stands on it's own and is in line with other similar passages which
tell christians that all they have to do is ASK and BELIEVE and it
will be done.
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:19-20)
HYPERBOLE: "EXAGGERATION FOR EFFECT AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY
(Ex. He's as strong as an ox.) Webster's New World Dictionary.
Obviously Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching, as was customary
practice in New Testament times.
"if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven"
THAT IS NOT HYPERBOLE.
If non-christians butchered the christian scriptures in the way
christians themselves do it there would be an outcry. If you don't
accept what your founder states - over and over again then - that's
fine. Just don't go round SHOUTING at others who point out your stupid
duplicity.
"You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive,
because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." James 4:2b-3
"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for
they think that they will be heard for their many words." Matthew 6:7
"Whatever you ask __in my name__, I will do it, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son" John 14:13
To ask in his name has got to be far more than using the right formula,
"in Jesus' name." It means to ask in accord with God's will. Just as
he himself asked, "Let this cup pass from me" in Gethsemane, "but
nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt."
To select one single verse or two and take them out of the context of
the whole is to guarantee misunderstanding.
methodios
William
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| User: "Editor of EvilBible.com" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
26 Jan 2004 04:04:03 PM |
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"dgillesp" <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote in message
news:40156BA2.384F95B9@pemtel.net...
William wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:49:26 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
William wrote:
jkelley@zoomnet.net (John Kelley)wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Another of these cringing sites that try to get round the problems of
unanswered prayers. The following passage (from the above site)
stands on it's own and is in line with other similar passages which
tell christians that all they have to do is ASK and BELIEVE and it
will be done.
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew
18:19-20)
HYPERBOLE: "EXAGGERATION FOR EFFECT AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN
LITERALLY
(Ex. He's as strong as an ox.) Webster's New World Dictionary.
Obviously Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching, as was customary
practice in New Testament times.
"if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven"
THAT IS NOT HYPERBOLE.
If non-christians butchered the christian scriptures in the way
christians themselves do it there would be an outcry. If you don't
accept what your founder states - over and over again then - that's
fine. Just don't go round SHOUTING at others who point out your stupid
duplicity.
"You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive,
because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." James 4:2b-3
That's not a Jesus quote. It doesn't change the fact that Jesus claimed
that believers would get whatever they want through prayer.
"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for
they think that they will be heard for their many words." Matthew 6:7
"Empty phrases" sounds like you must be a true believer instead of a
non-believer.
"Whatever you ask __in my name__, I will do it, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son" John 14:13
To ask in his name has got to be far more than using the right formula,
"in Jesus' name." It means to ask in accord with God's will. Just as
he himself asked, "Let this cup pass from me" in Gethsemane, "but
nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt."
I don't buy this about prayers having to be in accordance with God's will
for them to be granted. That is not what it says in the Bible. But even if
it was implied, it is still incorrect. Surely God wants us all to be
believers. Why don't you pray for me to become a believer right now and we
will see if it comes true right now like Jesus said it would. If I'm
converted I'll kiss God's butt for eternity. If I'm not converted that
proves that Jesus lied, and that you are following a habitual liar. Go
ahead make my day.
To select one single verse or two and take them out of the context of
the whole is to guarantee misunderstanding.
To make up your own "context" is not taking verses in context.
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| User: "William" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
26 Jan 2004 06:04:45 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:33:54 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
William wrote:
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>wrote:
William wrote:
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of
my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered
together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:19-20)
HYPERBOLE: "EXAGGERATION FOR EFFECT AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY
(Ex. He's as strong as an ox.) Webster's New World Dictionary.
Obviously Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching, as was customary
practice in New Testament times.
"if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven"
THAT IS NOT HYPERBOLE.
If non-christians butchered the christian scriptures in the way
christians themselves do it there would be an outcry. If you don't
accept what your founder states - over and over again then - that's
fine. Just don't go round SHOUTING at others who point out your stupid
duplicity.
"You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive,
because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." James 4:2b-3
Is James another name for Jesus or have you changed the subject. And
where did I say that any of the gospel promises were for spending on
your passions? It seems to me that christianity has reached the bottom
of the barrel if someone like me has to tell you that 'asking in His
name' is not likely to apply to asking for money for a wild night out.
"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for
they think that they will be heard for their many words." Matthew 6:7
As per above. I begin to see why christianity is in such a mess today.
"Whatever you ask __in my name__, I will do it, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son" John 14:13
To ask in his name has got to be far more than using the right formula,
"in Jesus' name." It means to ask in accord with God's will. Just as
he himself asked, "Let this cup pass from me" in Gethsemane, "but
nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt."
To select one single verse or two and take them out of the context of
the whole is to guarantee misunderstanding.
I didn't.
William
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
25 Jan 2004 05:39:09 PM |
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On 25 Jan 2004 13:07:04 -0800, (John Kelley)
wrote:
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
Straw-man argument.
Not even done well.
The fact is, talking to a non-existent sky-pixy won't get you
*anything*.
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| User: "Mr. Peterborough" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
08 Feb 2004 07:04:10 AM |
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Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message news:<upk810t47niki3rev0630mg2hjlfgt5mpn@4ax.com>...
The fact is, talking to a non-existent sky-pixy won't get you
*anything*.
Not with that attitude. Hey! It worked for Chris Assaf.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
09 Feb 2004 05:03:41 AM |
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Mr. Peterborough wrote:
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:<upk810t47niki3rev0630mg2hjlfgt5mpn@4ax.com>...
The fact is, talking to a non-existent sky-pixy won't get you
*anything*.
Not with that attitude. Hey! It worked for Chris Assaf.
We note those people with the right attitude, unwavering belief in god and
the bible as inerrant word of god, do not get big miracles despite big
claims that they will, see Mark 11:22-3, John 14:12-4, where jesus tells us
his followers will work even bigger miracles than he.
The silly wankers never notice the bible's big promises are false.
Us unbelievers do notice, because we haven't wrecked our brains
with belief games.
2 + 2 = 4, the true believers would have us believe 2 + 2 = 27.
No, read John 14;12-4 and explain to us why no xians
can do what Jesus promises.
Come on, lets see what lame excuse you can come up with to
make us laugh at your hardheaded fanaticism.
--
Losers to the right of me, losers to the left of me
and the air is filled with kooks.
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Mr. Peterborough" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
09 Feb 2004 03:29:39 PM |
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wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message news:<4026a042$0$128$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com>...
Mr. Peterborough wrote:
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:<upk810t47niki3rev0630mg2hjlfgt5mpn@4ax.com>...
The fact is, talking to a non-existent sky-pixy won't get you
*anything*.
Not with that attitude. Hey! It worked for Chris Assaf.
We note those people with the right attitude, unwavering belief in god and
the bible as inerrant word of god, do not get big miracles despite big
claims that they will, see Mark 11:22-3, John 14:12-4, where jesus tells us
his followers will work even bigger miracles than he.
The silly wankers never notice the bible's big promises are false.
Us unbelievers do notice, because we haven't wrecked our brains
with belief games.
2 + 2 = 4, the true believers would have us believe 2 + 2 = 27.
No, read John 14;12-4 and explain to us why no xians
can do what Jesus promises.
Come on, lets see what lame excuse you can come up with to
make us laugh at your hardheaded fanaticism.
Those miracles that the apostles were performing were for that time
only because the bible was not complete then.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
09 Feb 2004 06:38:35 PM |
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Mr. Peterborough wrote:
Those miracles that the apostles were performing were for
that time only because the bible was not complete then.
What miracles? Any proof other than the bible?
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
09 Feb 2004 06:15:24 PM |
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On 9 Feb 2004 13:29:39 -0800, (Mr. Peterborough)
wrote:
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message news:<4026a042$0$128$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com>...
Mr. Peterborough wrote:
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:<upk810t47niki3rev0630mg2hjlfgt5mpn@4ax.com>...
The fact is, talking to a non-existent sky-pixy won't get you
*anything*.
Not with that attitude. Hey! It worked for Chris Assaf.
We note those people with the right attitude, unwavering belief in god and
the bible as inerrant word of god, do not get big miracles despite big
claims that they will, see Mark 11:22-3, John 14:12-4, where jesus tells us
his followers will work even bigger miracles than he.
The silly wankers never notice the bible's big promises are false.
Us unbelievers do notice, because we haven't wrecked our brains
with belief games.
2 + 2 = 4, the true believers would have us believe 2 + 2 = 27.
No, read John 14;12-4 and explain to us why no xians
can do what Jesus promises.
Come on, lets see what lame excuse you can come up with to
make us laugh at your hardheaded fanaticism.
Those miracles that the apostles were performing were for that time
only because the bible was not complete then.
What?
Would you care to put that in English please?
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
29 Jan 2004 06:04:16 PM |
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On 25 Jan 2004 13:07:04 -0800, (John Kelley),
Message ID: <ce9e95d1.0401251307.114a3d93@posting.google.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
http://www.tektonics.org/prayfor.html
***** off, oh brainless one.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Mr. Peterborough" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
08 Feb 2004 07:02:10 AM |
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What about the people that say they got what they prayed for?
Chris Assaf has that almost all the time. ;-)
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
08 Feb 2004 10:19:47 AM |
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Mr. Peterborough wrote:
What about the people that say they got what they prayed for?
Chris Assaf has that almost all the time. ;-)
You sound like a sock puppet to me.
--
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we
go to church we're just making him madder and madder"
--Homer Simpson
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
08 Feb 2004 04:36:05 PM |
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On 8 Feb 2004 05:02:10 -0800, (Mr. Peterborough)
posted in alt.atheism:
What about the people that say they got what they prayed for?
There's a word you should look up - coincidence.
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of
themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Can prayer get you everything? On a common skeptical misconception. |
10 Feb 2004 09:52:47 PM |
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On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:36:05 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>,
Message ID: <pded20dmmboq4s216tftcefiqlmifbflv0@Pern.rk> wrote in
alt.atheism;
On 8 Feb 2004 05:02:10 -0800, (Mr. Peterborough)
posted in alt.atheism:
What about the people that say they got what they prayed for?
There's a word you should look up - coincidence.
He wouldn't understand it.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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