| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
18 Sep 2005 07:27:22 PM |
| Object: |
Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
Of Knowing And Not Knowing
Elvis, Haldane, And Excessive Self-Assurance
I wonder whether the rigidly scientific approach to the world explains
quite as much as we think it does (and we seem to think it explains
everything).
Everywhere and in all times people have reported sightings of
apparitions and ghosts, hants and inexplicable happenings. These are
dismissed by neurologists as the of glitches in neural functioning, by
psychiatrists as manifestations of schizophrenia or of heightened
suggestibility, by physicists as consequent to curious refractions of
light. But the explanations are usually asserted instead of
substantiated. I wonder.
My impression is that a great many people have had experiences that do
not fit the scientific world view, but do not speak of them for fear of
being thought mad. A few are not so reticent. JBS Haldane, the noted
geneticist, once "went into his home and saw himself sitting in his
own chair smoking his favorite pipe. 'Irregular' was his word for
the phenomenon, 'indigestion' his explanation. He walked across the
room and sat down on his own image."* "Indigestion" of course
makes not the slightest sense.
Examples abound, quietly. A woman of my acquaintance, perfectly sane,
recounts having watched a window in a room at night open by itself. My
father told me of driving one night with a friend in hill country,
whereupon a large truck appeared suddenly over a crest, soundless,
lights blazing, too close to avoid. They drove through it without
effect. "Did you see what I saw?" asked my father of his friend.
"Yes," replied the friend, shaken. They did not, he said, tell
anyone.
Now, I can offer the usual explanations. These people all suffered from
temporary insanity, there is no proof that they weren't actually
making up the stories, their memories were playing tricks (whatever
that means), or they were dreaming and thought they were awake-all of
which seem convenient evasions.
Many people have told me of having had premonitions, as for example
that someone was going to die under certain circumstances, after which
it happened. Others tell of having felt a sudden, terrible fear, as
though something immensely evil were nearby. Most have experienced what
we call d=E9ja vu. The plausible reason is always ready to hand:
chemical imbalances, the effect of stress, fragmentary memories of
similar events, what have you.
Is that really what is happening? Maybe. But saying so doesn't make
it so. My father was a hard-headed mathematician, not given to the
occult.
Note that the sciences are incapable of recognizing such phenomena. For
the sake of discussion, let us suppose that some unscientific event
actually occurred-say, that the shade of Elvis in fact appeared in my
living room one night, sang Blue Moon Over Kentucky, and then vanished.
Would science, or any scientist, be able to know it?
I could tell a physicist that I had seen Elvis, of course. He would
assume that I was joking, lying, or deluded. I could report that the
neighbors had heard Blue Moon, but the physicist would say that I had
played the song on my stereo. I might show him video that I had shot of
the appearance, but he would say that I had hired an Elvis
impersonator, or that I had faked the footage with video-editing
software.
In sum, even though it had really happened, he could never know that it
had.
The difficulty is that the sciences can apprehend only the repeatable.
If I could summon Elvis at will, again and again in an instrumented
laboratory, physicists would eventually have to concede that something
was happening, whatever it might be. While scientists defend their
paradigms as fiercely as Marxists or Moslems, they can, after
sufficient demonstration, be swayed by evidence. But without
repeatability, they see no evidence.
Not uncommonly, those in the sciences say that they "do not accept
supernatural explanations." One might observe that the world remains
the same, no matter what they accept. I might choose not to accept the
existence of gravity, but could nonetheless fall over a cliff.
Yet those who do not accept the supernatural never say just what they
mean by "supernatural." By "nature," do we not simply mean,
"that which is"? If for example genuine premonitions exist (which I
do not know), how can they be supernatural, as distinct from poorly
understood?
I think that by supernatural scientists mean "not deducible from
physics." But of course a great many things are not so
deducible-thought, consciousness, free will if any, sorrow, beauty.
Scientists do not accept things which seem to have no physical cause,
and of course as scientists should not accept them. If a comet were
suddenly to change course, it would hardly be useful if an astronomer
said that it just happened, or that a herd of invisible unicorns had
pushed it off course. He, properly, would want to find a gravitational
influence.
Trouble comes when the sciences overstep their bounds. It is one thing
to study physical phenomena, another to say that only physical
phenomena exist. Here science blurs into ideology, an ideology being a
systematic and emotionally held way of misunderstanding the world. A
science is open and descriptive, an ideology closed and prescriptive. A
scientists says, in principle at least, "Give me the facts and I will
endeavor to derive a theory that describes them." The ideologist
says, "I have the theory, and nothing that does not fit it can be a
fact." Having chosen his rut, he never sees beyond it. This has not
been the way of the greats of science, but of the middle ranks,
adequate to swell a progress or work in a laboratory.
In the limitless confidence of this physics-is-all ideology there is a
phenomenal arrogance. Perhaps we overestimate ourselves. As temporary
phenomena ourselves in a strange universe we don't really understand,
here for reasons we do not know, waiting to go somewhere or nowhere as
may be, we might display a more becoming humility. But won't.
Long ago in a computer lab that I frequented late at night, a white
mouse lived. It had escaped from the biology people. As I labored over
a keypunch, the wee beastie scurried about behind the line-printer. It
seemed to know where to find water, where the fragments of potato chips
lay, and where it could sleep warmly.
I reflected that it probably thought it understood its world, which
consisted of power supplies, magnetic-core memory, address buses, and
the arcana of assembly-language programming. I'd estimate that
humanity just about knows where the potato chips are.
*JBS: The Life and Work of J.B.S. Haldane, by Ronald Clark, p.111
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Haldane.shtml
.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 08:28:29 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: "Kant" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 08:29:55 PM |
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"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 10:03:42 PM |
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. . . testimony which is, in science, useless without corroborating
evidence.
The human mind works in mysterious ways.
MLW
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 11:31:01 PM |
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wrote:
. . . testimony which is, in science, useless without corroborating
evidence.
The human mind works in mysterious ways.
Comes from our early times when for tens of thousands of genrations we
remained locked into a life cycle of our women.
Imagine being born and dying after living exactly the same lifesyle as
your grandpa, his grandpa and his grandpa and so on for thousands of
generations.
No wonder our mind works in mysterious ways.
No wonder at the back of our minds or when threatened we cling to our
'leaders' like they were gods. Back then the leader really did make
all the difference between life and death
MLW
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 09:17:17 PM |
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"Kant" <Kant@Hell.com> wrote in news:lwoXe.48$dr3.5528@news.uswest.net:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
Verifiable evidence. Not the unsupported ravings of loons.
Klazmon.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 11:22:02 PM |
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Llanzlan Klazmon wrote:
"Kant" <Kant@Hell.com> wrote in news:lwoXe.48$dr3.5528@news.uswest.net:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
Verifiable evidence. Not the unsupported ravings of loons.
EVERY so called 'supernatural happening', happens 'second hand'
A bit like those that talk with gods isn't it?
Klazmon.
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 09:30:13 PM |
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"Kant" <Kant@Hell.com> wrote in news:lwoXe.48$dr3.5528@news.uswest.net:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
Witnesses of what? Werewolves? Zombies? Ghosts? Jewish carpenters
rising from the dead?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by
faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.
-Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 11:26:01 PM |
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Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
"Kant" <Kant@Hell.com> wrote in news:lwoXe.48$dr3.5528@news.uswest.net:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
Witnesses of what? Werewolves? Zombies? Ghosts? Jewish carpenters
rising from the dead?
He's probaby one of those idiots that creep into corn fields at dead of
night with ropes and a heavy piece of timber creating 'Crop Circles' .
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by
faith, then you are conceding that it can£t be taken on its own merits.
-Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 09:28:33 PM |
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Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth *
* and nothing but the truth; so help me me." *
* --George Burns as God *
****************************************************
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 10:26:38 PM |
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DanielSan wrote:
Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 11:24:05 PM |
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Mike Painter wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
All of these in fact:
Ahura Mazda, Allah, Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis,
Babaluaye, Bacchus,
Baldur, Bast, Bellona, Brahma, Brigid, Ceres, Cupid, Cerridwen,
Demeter, Diana, Dione, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Eleggua, , El Shaddai,
Elohim Eshu, Ereshkigal,
Frigga, Frey, Freya, Gaea, Lord Genesa, Hades, Hebe, Hera, Helios,
Hel, Hephaestus,
Hermes, Hestia, Horus, Ibeji, Ifa, Inanna, Indra, Ishana, Ishtar,
Isis, Janus, Juno, Jehovah, Jove, Jupiter, Kali. Krishna Kronos,
Korravai,
Loki, Lugh, Lord Indra, Manitou, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Mercurius,
Morrigan,
Nahuiquiahuitl, Nanahuatzin, Nephthys, Neptune, Obatala, Odin, Ogun,
Oshosi, Oshun, Osiris, Oya, Orunmila, Olokun, Olodumare, Pluto,
Persephone, Poseidon, Proserpina, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Lord Rama, Rhea,
Saturn, Set,
Selene, Shango, Lord Siva, Tammuz, Thor, Tir, Tiw, Uranus, Venus,
Vesta, Vishnu,
Vesta, Vulcan, Wotan, Yahweh, Yemaya, Zeus, XodA.
African gods:
[Note under 'African Gods' the number devoted to 'Supremacy']
Abassi [Sky]
Abonsam [Evil]
Abora [Supreme]
Abzu [Water]
Acoran [Supreme]
Adaheli [Sun]
Adro [Sky]
Adroa [Sky]
Agassou [Panther]
Agbe-Naete [Water]
Age [Animals]
Aigamuxa [Monster]
Ajalamo[Unborn Children]
Aje [Wealth]
Ajok [Supreme]
Akonadi [Oracle]
Akongo [Supreme]
Akuj [Supreme]
Ala [Earth/Fertility]
Alatangana [Creator]
Amma [Creator]
Anansi [Trickster]
Anyiewo [Snake]
Aondo [Creator]
Apa [Creator]
Apedemak [War]
Arawa [Moon]
Arebati [Sky]
Arom [Contracts]
Arsan Duolai [Underworld]
Asase Ya [Earth]
Ashiakle [Wealth]
Asis [Sun]
Astar [Sky]
Ataa Naa
Nyongmo [Creator]
Ataokoloinona [Supreme]
Atete [Fertility]
Avrikiti [Fishermen]
Ayabba
[Ayaba] [Hearth]
Bacax [Cave]
Bagba [Wind]
Balubaal [Earth+]
Bandara [Superior Gods]
Banga [Clear water]
Behanzin [Fish]
Beher [Sea]
Bera Pennu [Vegetation]
Bo [Warriors]
Bomazi[Ancestors]
Buadza [WInd]
Buck[River]
Buku [Sky]
Bumba [Creator]
Cagn [Creator]
(!Kaggen)
Cghene [Creator]
Chiuke
(Chuku) [Creator]
Chiata [Supreme]
Chwezi [Hero]
Col [Rain]
Chikara [Sky]
Danh
(Dan Ayido Hwedo) [Snake]
Deng [Sky]
Deohako [Beans+]
Dii Mauri [Moorish Gods]
Dongo [Outer Space]
Dugbo [Earth]
Dxui [Creator]
Emeli-hi [Supreme]
Eranoranhan [Protector]
Eshu (Elegba) [Trickster]
Fa [Destiny]
Famien [Fertility]
Faro [Sky/Water]
Fidi Mukullu [Creator]
Garang and Abuk [First Humans]
Gbeni [Chief]
Gei (Gou) [Moon]
Gu [War/Smiths]
Gua [Sky]
Gulu [Supreme]
Gunab [Evil]
Guruhi [Evil]
Gurzil [Bull]
Gwalu [Rain]
Hammon [Setting Sun]
Harun and Haruna [Water Spirits]
Heitsi-Eibib [Sorcerer]
Hevioss [Thunder]
Huntin [Tree]
Huvean [Creator]
Ifa [Oracul]
Ikenga [Supreme]
Imana [Creator]
Iruwa [Sun]
Juok [Creator]
Kalumba [Creator]
Kalunga Supreme]
Katavi [Demonic]
Ka Tyeleo [Supreme]
Khebieso [Lightening]
Kho-dumo-dumo [Demon]
Kholomodumo [Monster]
Khuzwane [Creator]
Kibuka [War]
Kokola [Guardian]
Kwammang-a [Supreme]
Kwoth [Spirit]
Kyala [Creator]
Legba [Trickster]
Leza [Chief]
Libanza [Supreme]
Lisa [Chameleon]
Lyangombe[Chief]
Macardit [Demon]
Mantis [Creator]
Massim-Biambe [Creator]
Mawu [Sky]
Mawu-Lisa [Supreme Couple]
Mbotumbo [Supreme]
Medr [Earth]
Moomb [Creator]
Mon [?]
Mugasa
Mugu [Sky]
Mujaji [Rain]
Mukasa [Supreme]
Mula Djadi [Creator]
Muluku [Supreme]
Mulungu
Mungu [Creator]
Mungo (Mungu) [?]
Musa (Teaching]
Musisi [Supreme]
Mwari [Supreme]
Nampa [Personal]
Nana-Bouclou [First Gods]
Nana Buluk [Creator]
Ndjambi [Sky]
Ndriananahary [Supreme]
Nduru [Jungle]
Nenaunir [Storm]
Nesshoue [River]
Ngai ('Ngai) [Creator]
Ngewo-wa [Creator]
Ngworekara [Demon]
Niamye [Supreme]
Nkosi Yama'kosi [Supreme]
Nommo [Elemental]
Nommo [Spirit]
Nyama [Animal]
Nyambe [Supreme]
Nyambi (Nyambe) [Supreme]
Nyame
Nyami-Nyami [Guardian]
Nyankopon (Ashanti:Nyame) [Supreme]
Nyamia Ama [Supreme]
Nyasaye [Supeme]
Nzambi (Nzambi)
Mpunguo) [Supreme]
Nzame [Supreme]
Obassi Osaw [Supreme]
Obatala [Sky]
Oduduwa (Odudua) [Earth]
Ogun (Ogoun) War]
Olokula [Sea]
Olorun [Supreme]
Omumbo-Rombonga [Tree of Life]
Orahan [Supreme]
Orisa Nla [Creator]
Orishako [Agriculture]
Orunjan [Midday Sun]
Orunmila [Compassion]
Oshalla [?]
Osun [Beauty and Love]
Oya [Passion and Power]
Pemba (Bemba) Mother]
Qandisa [Demon]
Qamata[Quamta] Supreme]
Rock-Sene [Supreme]
Ruwa [Supreme]
Sagbata [Smallpox]
Sakarabru [Medicine]
Sakpata [Smallpox]
Sango [Thunder]
Shango [Thunder]
So [Lightening]
Tano [River]
Tore [Forest]
Trowu[Spirits]
Tsui'goab [Rain]
Twe [Lake]
Umvelinqangi [Creator]
Unkulunkulu [Supreme]
Unumbotte [Creator]
Waka [Rain]
Wele [Supreme]
Wulbari [Supreme]
Wuni [Supreme]
Xewioso [Thunder]
Yemaja [Creation]
Yo [Impersonal]
Zin [Water]
Table of Asian Gods:
BUDDHIST
Abhijnaraja [Physician]
Abhimukhi [One of the Bhumis]
Acala [?]
Adhimukticarya [One of the Bhumis]
Adhimuktivasita [One of the Bhumis]
Adibuddha [First]
Adidharma [Primeval]
Aizen Myo-o [Protective]
Ajaya [?]
Akasagarbha(Tibetan Nam-mkhai
Aksayajnana-Karmanda [Literature]
Aksobhya (Japanese Ashuku, Chinese A-Chu'u) [One of the Dhyani]
Amida [Savior]
Amitabha [A Dhyani]
Amitayus [Longevity]
Amoghapasa [see Avalokitesvara]
Amoghasiddhi [A Dhyani]
Anantamukhi [Literature]
Arapacana [Book and Sword]
Arcismati [Bhumis]
Arhat [A Saint]
Arthapratisamvit [Logical Analysis]
Arya-Tara [Sakti]
Asokakanta [avatar Marici]
Asokottamasri [Physician]
Astabhuja-Kurukulla [avatar Kurukulla]
Asura [Group of Demons]
Avalokitesvara(Avalokita, Lokesvara) [Dhyani Present Age]
Ayurvasita[One vasitas]
Balaparamita [Philosophy]
Bhaisajyaguru(Sman-bla, Otaci,Yao-shih-fo, Yakushi)[Physician]
Bhima[Attendant]
Bhrkuti[Female]
Bhrkuti-Tara [Mother]
Bhumi [Spiritual Spheres]
Bhutadarma [Demon Controller]
Bi-har [Protector]
Bodhidharma [Monk]
Bodhisattva (Chinese Pu-sa) [Born to be Englightened]
Buddhabodhiprabhavasita [Vasitas]
Buddhalocana [Female Buddha]
Budha [Mercury]
Butcho [?]
Chandarosana [Mahayana]
Charcika (Carcika) [Mahayana]
Chakravartin [World Ruler]
Chattrosnisa [An Usnisa]
Chaturmaharajas (Caturmaharajas) [Four Great Kings]
Chittavista [Vashitas]
Citipati [Graveyard Demons]
Cunda [Literature]
Da-shi-zhi [Bodhisattva]
Dadimunda [Temples]
Dainichi' [Purity/Wisdom]
Dakini [Demons]
Dala Kadavara [Demon]
Devaputra [Gods of Lower Rank]
Dhanada [avatar Amoghasiddhi]
Dharani [Mystical Texts]
Dharmadhatuvagisvara [Dharma]
Dharmakirtisagaraghosa [Physician]
Dharmamegha [Bhumis]
Dharmapala ,Chinese Fu Ha [Protective Dieties]
Dharmapratisamvit [Nature Analysis]
Dharmavasita [Vasitas]
Dhritarashtra (Pali Dhatarattha) [One of the 4 World Guardians]
Dhupa [Mother]
Dhupatara [Mahayana]
Dhvajagrakeyura [avatar Aksobhya]
Dhyanaparamita [Philosophy]
Dhyani-Bodhisattvas [Five Bodhisattvas]
Dhyani-Buddhas [Five Meditators]
Di-zang [Bodhisattvas of Hell]
Dvarapala [?]
Ekajata [Terrible]
Emma-o [Judges the Dead]
Fudo [WIsdom]
Guan Yin [bodhisattva]
Hariti [Ate Children]
Hayagriva [Protection]
Heruka [Protection]
Hevajra [Protection]
Ida-Ten [Law/Monestaries]
Jambhala [avatar Vausravana]
Janguli [Snakebite cure]
Jian Lao [Earth/Permanence]
Jizo [Compassion]
Juichimen [Mercy]
Kali devia [avatar Lha-mo]
Kannon [Japanese bodhisattva]
Khasarpana(Khasarpana-Lokesvara) [Indian bodhisattva]
Ki Fudo [avatar Fudo-Myo-o]
Krodhadevatas [Inspire Terror]
Ksitigarbha [One of 8 bodhisattva]
Kuan-yin (Kwannon) [Mercy]
Kujaku Myoo [Esoteric]
Kurukulla [?]
Locana [?]
Mahasthamaprata [Chinese bodhisattva]
Maitreya [Future]
Manjughosa [Nepalese bodhisattva]
Manjusri [bodhisattva]
Mara [Evil]
Marici [Sun]
Mi-lo Fo (Pu-Sa) [Chinese bodhisattva
Miroku [Japanese bodhisattva
Mo-Li [Protects Temples]
Padmanartesvara [avatar Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara]
Pancaraksa[5 Goddesses]
Pandara [?]
Paramasva [?]
Parnasavari [?]
Prajna [Femaleness]
Prajnaparamita [Buddhist Text]
Ran-deng [Beggar and Future Buddha]
Ratnapani [Dhyani-Bodhisattva]
Ratnasambhava [Dhyani-Buddha]
Remanta [King of the Horse gods]
Sakyamuni [Japanese]
Samantabhadra [Bodhisattvas]
Saptaksara [avatar Heruka]
Shakra [King of the Gods]
Ssu Ta T'ien Wang [Kings of Heaven]
Sumbharaja [Buddhist Krodhadevata]
Tennin (Tennyo) [angels]
Usnisavijaya [?]
Vairocana [Dhyani-Buddhas]
Vaisravana (Pali Vessavana, Chinese Do Wen) [Guards World]
Vajrabhairava [?]
Vajrapani [Bodhisattvas]
Vajrasattva [Nepal Dhyani-Buddha]
Vajravarahi [?]
Vajrayogini [Initiation]
Vajrayogini [Riches]
Vidyadharas [?]
Vidyujjvalakarali [?]
Vighnantaka [?]
Virudhaka (Pali Virulha, Chinese Zheng Zhang) [Guards World]
Virupaksa (Pali Virupakkha, Chinese Guand Mu) [Guards Western
Heaven]
Visvapani [Dhyani-Bodhisattva]
We-to [Divine General]
Yakushi Nyorai [Healing]
Yama [?]
Yamantaka [Krodhadevatas]
Zhu Dian (Zhu Tian) [Chinese Buddhist gods]
CHINESE GODS
Ao [Sea]
Awun [Destruction]
Ba [Drought]
Ba Gua [Basis of Divination]
Bo Hsian [Taoist]
Cai-Shen [Riches]
Can Cong [Silkworms]
Cao Guo-jiu [Actors]
Chang Fei [War]
Chang Hs'ien [Children]
Chang Kuo-lao [?]
Ch'ang E (Ch'ang-o Huang E) [Moon]
Chang Tao Ling [Afterlife]
Cheng-huang (Ch'eng Huang) [Guardians]
Chen Jen [Spiritual Beings]
Cheng San-Kung [Fishermen]
Cheng Yuan Ho (Ch'ang-o Huang E) [Buskers]
Chih Nu [Weavers]
Chih Sung-Tzu (Chi Sung Tzu) [Rain]
Chih-Yu [Inventor]
Ch'in-Shu-Pao [Guardian]
Chou Wang [Sodomy]
Chu-Chuan Shen [Pigsties]
Chu Jung [Fire]
Chu Lung [Day/Night]
Chung K'uei [Afterlife]
Chung-li Ch'uan [Immortal]
Confucius [Philosopher]
Di Zhang Xia [?]
Dong-yo Da-di [Helps Sky God]
Erh-Lang [Guardian]
Fan-K'uei [Butchers]
Fei Lien (Fei Lian) [Wind]
Feng-Huang (Hoang-female Phuong-male) [Many Meanings]
Feng Po (Feng-Po) [Human form of the wind]
Feng P'o-p'o (Feng-Po-Po) [Female wind]
Fo [Buddha]
Fu His [Taught Humanity]
Fu Hsing [Happiness]
Fu Shen [Happiness]
Fu-Shou-Lu [Collection of Gods]
Fu-xi [Hero]
Gao Yao (Ting-jian) [Judgement]
Gong Gong [Common Workers]
Gou Mang and Ru Shou [Messengers]
Guan Di (Kuan Ti) [War/Fortune Telling]
Gui Xian [Demon]
Han Hsiang [Immortal]
Han Xiang-zi [Immortal]
He Bo (Bing-yi) [Rivers]
Heng E (Change-e) [Moon]
He Xian-gu [Immortal]
Heng-Ha-Erh-Chiang [Temples]
Heng-o [Moon]
Ho Hsien-ku [Immortal]
Ho Po [River]
Hou Chi [Harvest]
Hou I [Archer]
Hou T'u [Earth]
Hsien [Taoists]
Hsi Ho [Sun's Creator]
Hsi Wang Mu [Guardian]
Hsuan-T'ien-Shang-Ti [Dark Heaven]
Hua Hsien [Flower]
Huang-di (Huang Ti) (Shun) [Hero]
Huang Fei-hu (Fei) [Mountain]
Hu-Shen [Hail]
I [Bowmen]
Infoniwoo [Generation]
I-Ti [Wine]
K'ai Lu Shen [Purges Evil]
Kuan Yu [War]
K'uei Hsing [Examinations]
Lan Cai-he [Immortal]
Lao T'ien Yeh [Supreme]
Lao-Tzu (Lao-zi) [Philosopher]
Lei Kung [Storm]
Lei-zi [Thunder]
Li [Fire]
Li Tie-guai [Immortal]
Liu [Crops]
Lu Dong-bin (Lu Yan) [Immortal]
Lu-Hsing [Salaries/Employees]
Lung Wang [Dragon King]
Lupan [Carpenters]
Ma-Mien [Bureaucrat]
Meng (Meng P'o) [Underworld]
Meng-T'ien [Writing Brush]
Men Shen [Doors, includes sometimes Wei Cheng]
Mu Gong [Immortals]
Niu-Y'oun [Police]
Nu Gua (Nu Kua, Nu Wa) [Creator and Marriage]
O-Mi-T'o Fo [Amitabha]
Pa [Drought]
Pa-Cha [Anti-locusts]
Pa-Hsien [Eight Immortals]
P'an-Chin-Lien [Prostitues]
'P'an Ku (Panku, Pangu) [Cosmos]
Pi-Hsia-Yuan-Chun [Childbirth]
Puhsien [Sun]
Ran-deng [Future Buddha]
San Ch'inga [Three Taos]
Shang Di (Shang Ti) [Supreme]
She Chi (Thu) [Earth]
Shen [Spirit]
Sheng Jen [Holy]
Shen-nong(Shen Nung) [Hero]
Shen-T'u [Guardian]
Shen Yi [Sun]
Shiang Ku [Magician]
Shih-Tien Yen-Wang [Committe of Ten]
Shou-Hsing [Longevity]
Shou Lao (Shou Xing Lao Tou-zi) [Long Life]
Shou-Ts'ang [Servant]
Shui-Fu [Water]
Shui-Kuan [Defender]
Ssu Ming [Life and Death]
Sung-Chiang [Theives]
Sun Hou-Tzu [Monkey]
Sun Hou-zi [Apes]
Sun-Pin [Cobblers]
T'ai I [High]
Tai-sui-xing [Time]
Tai-yi [Sky]
T'ai Yueh Ta Ti (Tung-Yueh-Ta-Ti, T'ai-Yo, Ta-Ti) [Peak]
Thu [Earth]
Tian [Sky]
Tian-zhu [Catholic]
Tien (T'ien) [Sky]
Tien-Hou (T'ien Fei) [Heaven]
T'ien-Kuan [Happiness]
T'ien Lung [Dragon]
Tien Mu [Lightening]
Tien-Wang (Mo-Li) [Kings]
Ti-Kuan [Foregiveness]
Ti Nu (Ti-ya) [Earth]
Ti-Tsang-Wang-Pu-Sa [Mercy]
Ti Yu [Afterlife]
Tou Nu [North Star]
Ts'ai-Lun [Stationers]
Ts'ai Shen [Wealth]
Tsan [Demons]
Ts'ang Chien [Hearth]
Tsao Shen [?]
Tsao-Wang [Hearth]
Tu [Earth]
Tung Wang Kung [Ruled Male Immortals]
T'u-ti (Ti-Ti) [Locality]
Wang [Palace Door]
Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang [Guardian]
Wen Ch'ang (Wen-Chang-Ta-Ti) [Literature]
Wen-Shu Yen-K'ung [Manjushri]
Wen Pu [Epidemics]
Wu Ti [Myth]
Xian [Spirits]
Xi-Wang-mu [Immortality]
Yama [Seventh hell]
Yan-lo (Yan Wang) [Underworld Prince]
Yao [Wind Conqueror]
Yao-shi-fo [Physician]
Yao Wang [Medicine]
Yeng-Wang-Yeh [Death]
Yen Wang (Yen Lo) [Underworld Judge]
Yin and Yang [Male and Female]
Yo Fei [War]
Yu-Chiang [Ocean Winds]
Yu-di (Yu Huang) [Supreme]
Yueh Fei [War]
Yu Huang (Yu-Huang-Shang-Ti) [High]
Yun T'ung [Clouds]
Yu-qiang [Sea]
Yu Shih [Rain]
Yu-tzu [Rain]
Zao Jun [Kitchen]
Zhang Guo-lao [Immortal]
Zhong-Kui [Literature and Examinations]
Zhong-li Quan [Immortal]
[Sources: Brief History of Ancient Chinese Mythology]
Finnish Gods:
Ahto [Water]
Akka [Harvest]
Egres [Vegetation/Fertility]
Hiisi [Forest/Evil]
Ilma [Air]
Ilmarinen [Sky]
Inmar [Sky]
Juma [Sky]
Jumala (Mader-Atcha, Ukk) [Thunder+]
Kalevanpojat [Demons]
Kalma [Death]
Kekri [Fertility Feast]
Kipu-Tytto [Illness]
Kondos [Sowing Crops]
Kuu [Moon]
Lemminkainen [Hero]
Louhi [Sorcery/Evil]
Loviatar [Disease]
Luonnotar [Creator]
Madderakka [Dwarves]
Maahiset [Dwarves]
Naaki [Water]
Nyrckes [?]
Olmai (Olmay) [Divine properties]
Pajainen [?]
Pajonn [Thunder]
Para [Goblin Like]
Pellonpekko [Barley]
Raudna [?]
Rutu [Devil]
Sampsa [Vegetation]
Seides [Stones]
Rauni [?]
Tapio [Forest]
Tiermes [Thunder]
Tuoni [Underworld
Tursas [Monster]
Ukko (Isainen) [Thunder]
Vainamoinen [Hero]
Veralden-radien [World Pillars]
Waralden Olmai [World]
JAPANESE GODS
Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone (Aji-Shiki-Taka-Hiko-Ne) [Thunder]
Ama-No-Minakanushi-No-Kumi [Pole Star]
Ame-No-Oshido-Mimi [Refusal]
Ama-No-Uzume [Fertility]
Ama-Tsu-Kami [Heavenly Gods]
Amatsu Mikaboshi [Evil]
Ame-No-Hohi [Disappeared]
Ame-No-Wakahiko [Ruled Earth]
Bimbo-Gami [Poverty]
Bishamon [War]
Chimata-No-Kami [Rain/Sea]
Daikoku [Wealth]
Ebisu [Labor]
Fuchi [Fire]
Fukurokuju (Fukuro kuju) [Wisdom]
Futsunushi [Lightening]
Gozu-Tenno [Plague]
Haya-Ji (Haya-Tsu-Muji-No-Kami) [Whirlwind]
Hikohohodemi [Hero]
Hinokagutsuchi [Fire]
Hiruko [Morning Sun]
Hoderi [?]
Hisa-Me [Devils]
Ho-Masubi (Kagu Zuchi) [Fire]
Hosuseri [?]
Hotei [Laughter]
Inari [Prosperity]
Izanagi [Creator]
Izanami [Mother]
Jikoku [Guardians]
Jimmu Tenno [Founder]
Jurojin (Jorojin) [Longevity]
Kagu-tsuchi [Fire]
Kamado-gami [Hearth]
Kami [Divinities]
Kami-Musubi (Kami-mi-masubi) [?]
Kami-Nari [Thunder]
Kamui [Sky]
Kappa [Water]
Kawa-No-Kami [Rivers]
Kishijoten [Luck]
Kishimojin [Demon]
Komoku [South]
Kompira [Wealth]
Kono-Hana-Sakuya-Hime (Kono-no-hana-saku-ya-hime) [?]
Kono-Hana-Sakuya-Hime Kuni-Toko-tachi [First]
Kuni-Tsu-Kami [Earth]
Kura-Okami [Rain/Snow]
Nai-No-Kami [Earthquakes]
Naka-Yama-Tsu-Mi [Mountain Slopes]
Ningyo [Mermaid]
Ninigi [Ruler Earth]
O-Kuni-Nushi (Okuninushi) [Medicine/Sorcery]
Onamuji [Earth]
Omiwa [Protective]
Oni [Demons]
O-Wata-Tsumi [Sea]
O-Yama-Tsu-Mi (O-yama-tsuni) [Mountain]
Raiden [Thunder]
Ryo-Wo [Sea]
Ryujin (Ryugin) [Thunder/Rain]
Sae-No-Kami [Roads]
Sengen-Sama [Guarded Holy Moutain]
Sennin [Immortals]
Shichi-Fukujin [Luck]
Shiko-Me [Devils]
Shine-Tsu-Hiko [Wind]
Shitatera-Hime [?]
Shi-tenno [Cardinal Direction Guardians]
Shojo [Satyrs]
Soko-No-Kuni [Underworld]
Suitengu [Sea]
Sukuna-bikone (Suku-na-biko) [Hot Springs]
Shoki [Enemy of Devils]
Susanowo (Susanoo, Susa-no-wo) [Storms]
Takamimusubi (Taka-mi-masubi) [Royal Family]
Takemikadzuchi [Thunder]
Take-Mi-Musubi [Sun]
Taki-Tsu-Hiko [Rain]
Tatsuta-hime [Autumn]
Ten-gu (Tengu) [Mountain/Forest]
Tenjin (Temmangu) [Learning/Calligraphy]
Tsuki-Yomi (Tsukiyomi) [Moon]
Uji-gami [Ancestors]
Uke-Mochi-No-Kami (Ukemochi, Waka-Uke-Nomi, Toyo-Uke-Bime)
[Fertility and Food]
Uzume [Mirth]
Wakahiru-me [Rising Sun]\
Wata-tsu-mi [Sea]
Yabune [House]
Zocho [South]
Shinto Amaterasu [Sun]
Ama-Tsu-Mara [Smiths]
Ame-No-Kagase-Wo [Astral]
Ame-No-Mi-Kumari-No-Kami [Water]
Amenominakanushi (Ame-No-Minaka-Nushi-No-Kami) [Supreme]
Am-No-Tanabata-Hime-No-Mikoto [Weavers]
Ame-No-Toko-Tachi-No-Kami [Elemental]
Ame-no-uzume [Dancers]
Benten (Benten-San, Benzaiten, Benzaiten) [Eloquence+]
Fujin [Wind]
Hachiman [War]
Ho-musubi [Fire]
Kami [Idols]
SOUTH ASIAN GODS
Cao Dai(Chinese: Gao-Tai) [Supreme]
Debata [?]
Empung Luminuut [?]
Hainuwele [?]
Hananim [Sky]
Hmin [Ague]
Karei [Supreme]
Kinharingan [Creator]
Kud [Evil]
Laseo [Sun]
Lature Dano [Supreme]
Lowalangi(Lowalani) [World Above]
Mahatala (Mahataral) [Supreme?]
Ma-zu [?]
Nanmata (Namite) [Primeval]
Narbrooi [Woodlands]
Nemu [Primodial]
Palk [Sun]
Puang Matowa [Sky]
Pulug [Thunder]
Reahu [Dark Demon]
Rigenmucha [Supreme]
Silewe Nazarata [?]
Sirao [First]
Ta Pedn [?]
Tnong [Sun]
Tumbrenjak [Original Man]
Upulevo [Sun]
Wunekau [Sun]
CENRAL AND WEST ASIAN GODS
Abyrga [Snake]
Afi [Rain/Thunderstorms]
Aitvaras [Evil]
Alardi [Spirit]
Aralo [Agriculutre]
Armaz [Supreme]
Auseklis (Ausrine) [Stellar]
Baba [Spirit]
Baba Yaga (Jezi-Baba) [Ogress]
Bagvarti [?]
Bangputys [Sea]
Bannik [Baths]
Bagisht [Flood/Prosperity]
Barastir (Barastaer) [Underworld]
Bardha [Elves]
Beg-tse (Cam-srin) [War]
Beng [Satan]
Biegg-Olmai [Wind]
Bogatyri [Heroes]
Boldogasszony (Kisboldogasszony) [Protector Women/Children]
Bolla (Bullar) [Demon]
Buga [Supreme]
Bukura e dheut
[Good Spirit]
Bukuri e qiellit [Jehovah]
Byelobog (Bielbog) [?]
Byelun [?]
Chernobo(Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog) [?]
Chors [Sun]
Dabog [Sun]
Deive [Stone Spirits]
Dieva deli [?]
Dievini [Less Known Gods]
Dievs [Sky]
Djall [Devil]
Domovoi (Domovoy) [Household]
Donbittir [Water/Fish]
Drag-gshed [Eight Terrible Gods]
Dud [Heavenly Spirit]
Dvorovoi [Courtyard]
Dyavo [Demons]
En [?]
Erlik [King of the Dead]
Es [Sky]
Fatit [Destiny]
Fene [Demon]
Gabija (Gabieta, Gabeta) [Fire]
Gabjauja [Corn]
Giltine [Death]
Guta [Demon]
Hadur [War]
Himavat [Himalayas]
Horagalles [War]
Isdustaya and Papaya [Fate]
Isten [Supreme]
Jagaubis [Fire]
Jarovit (Gerovitus) [War]
Jessis [avatar Jupiter]
Jumis [Fertility]
Juras Mate [Water]
Kaka-Guia [Funerary]
Kalvis [Smith]
Karta [Fate]
Kaukas [?]
Khors [Health/Hunting]
Khyung-gai mGo-can [?]
Kikimora [Household]
K'op'ala [Protective]
Kukuth (Kukudhi) [Sickness]
Kulshedra (Kucedre) [Demon]
Kun-tu-bzan-po [Chief Bon]
Kupala [Water/Magic/Herbs]
Kurdalaegon [Blacksmiths]
Laima [Fate]
Lamaria [Hearth]
Laskowice (Leshcia) [Forest]
Lauka Mate [Fields/Fertility]
Laume [Fairy]
Leshy [Forest]
Lha [Bon Gods]
Lhamo [?]
Ljeschi (Lychie) [Fauns and Satyrs]
Ljubi [Demon]
Manzasiri [Primeval]
Mate [Mother]
Mati Syra Zemlya [Earth]
Medeine (Mejdejn) [Woods]
Meness [Moon]
Menulis [Moon]
Meza Mate [Nature]
Mirsa [Light]
Mokos [Fertility]
Mu (rMu) [Heavenly]
Muma Padura [Wood]
Myesyats (Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog) [Moon]
Nang Lha [Household]
Nari [Demon]
Nari [Sky]
Num [Sky]
Odqan [Fire]
Ora [Protective]
Ordog [Dark]
Pekar (Pehar) [Demon]
Peko [Barley]
Perendi [Jehovah]
Perit [Mountain Spirits]
Perkons [Thunder]
Perkunas [Thunder]
Perun (Peroun) [Thunder]
Polevik [Field]
Poludnitsa [Field]
Pon [Sky]
Porenutius (Porevit) [?]
Preas Eyn [?]
Preas Eyssaur [Destructive]
Preas Prohm [Primeval]
Prende (Prenne) [Love]
Psezpolnica (Polish Poludnica) [Midday]
Pugu [Sun]
Qormusta (Chormusta) [High]
Rugievit [War]
Rusalki (Rusalka) [Water/Woodlands]
Safa [Weapens]
Sanda [?]
Sarkany [Weather]
Saule [Sun]
Saules meitas [?]
Selardi [Moon]
Shen-Lha-od-dkar [Bon]
Shen-rab [Founder Bon]
Sipe Gyalmo [Bon]
Shiwini [Sun]
Shosshu [Smiths]
Siwini [Sun]
Srat [Demon]
Sri [Demon]
Sridevi [?]
Stribog [Winds]
Svantevit (Svantoveit, Svantovitus) [War/Agriculture]
Svarog [Sky]
Syen [Guardian]
Stihi [Demon]
Teljavelik [Heavenly Smith]
Telyaveli [Smiths]
Tengri [Heavenly Beings]
Tesheba [Weather]
Thab-lha [Hearth]
Triglav (Trigelawus) [War]
Uacilla [Thunder/Rain]
Ulgen [Creator]
Urme [Fate]
Usins [?]
Vadatajs [Evil]
Vampire [Soul of Dead]
Veela [Kindess]
Veja mate [Winds]
Veles (Volos) [Underworld]
Velnias [Devil]
Velu mate [Dead]
Verbti [Fire/North Wind]
Vila [Water]
Vilkacis (Lithuanian Vilkatas) [Werewolf]
Vlkodlaks (Vookodlaks) [Werewolf]
Vodnik [Demon]
Vodyanoi [Water]
Volos (Volusu) [Cattle]
We [Supreme]
Xhindi [Spirits]
Yarilo [Love]
Zaltys [Grass Snake]
Zemepatis (Zemempatis) [Supreme]
Zemes mate [Mother]
Zemyna (Zemyneles) [Earth]
Zorya [Guardian]
Zvezda Dennitsa and Zvezda Vechernyaya [Morning and Evening Star]
SIBERIAN GODS
Ai Tojon [Light]
Ajysyt [Mother]
Anky-Kele [Sea]
Ayi [Creator]
Hittavainen, Hittauanin [Hare-Hunters]
Hinkon [Death Demon]
K'daai [Fire Demon]
Kaltes [The Goddess]
Ke'lets [Death Demon]
Kurkil [Creator]
Kutkinnaku [Good Spirit]
Mayin [Supreme]
Picvu'cin [Hunting/Wild Animals]
Shurdi [Thunderstorms]
Tomam [Bird]
Tomor(Tomorr) [Father Creator]
Xucau [Supreme]
Ye'loje (Pugu) [Sun]
.
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| User: "Wilbur Slice" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 12:22:12 PM |
|
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On 18 Sep 2005 23:24:05 -0500, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
All of these in fact:
Ahura Mazda,
I used to drive one of those. It waqs a very reliable little car, but
just not roomy enough.
Allah, Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis,
<snip> (oops - I hope one of those super natural gods doesn't take
offense and smite me, or whatever it is they do...)
.
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| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 11:37:02 PM |
|
|
Wilbur Slice wrote:
On 18 Sep 2005 23:24:05 -0500, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
All of these in fact:
Ahura Mazda,
I used to drive one of those. It waqs a very reliable little car, but
just not roomy enough.
Allah, Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis,
<snip> (oops - I hope one of those super natural gods doesn't take
offense and smite me, or whatever it is they do...)
They don't do nothin' as they don't exist.
All the smiting is done by we arrogent humans
Smite smite smite......Ooooh
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 10:52:30 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:26:38 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
If they all exist then all choices are correct.
Now which one of those gods is for beer, sex, and hockey?
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
.
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 11:27:09 PM |
|
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"AngryJohn" <angryjohn@belief.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:oddsi1p73ane4nu1g235jur29uhn9qrrlo@4ax.com...
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:26:38 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
If they all exist then all choices are correct.
Now which one of those gods is for beer, sex, and hockey?
Dunno, but the Yahweh who is for Greek icons sure cooks up some tasty grub.
Keep up the good work, Big Fella, and tell the Southern Baptists to get with
the fucking program.
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 140,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
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| User: "Pramod Subramanyan" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 07:38:05 AM |
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Briefly stated, the findings are that when presented with an array of
data or a sequence of events in which they are instructed to discover
an underlying order, subjects show strong tendencies to perceive order
and causality in random arrays, to perceive a pattern or correlation
which seems a priori intuitively correct even when the actual
correlation
in the data is counterintuitive, to jump to conclusions about the
correct
hypothesis, to seek and to use only positive or confirmatory evidence,
to
construe evidence liberally as confirmatory, to fail to generate or to
assess alternative hypotheses, and having thus managed to expose
themselves only to confirmatory instances, to be fallaciously confident
of the validity of their judgments (Jahoda, 1969; Einhorn and Hogarth,
1978). In the analyzing of past events, these tendencies are
exacerbated
by failure to appreciate the pitfalls of post hoc analyses.
-- A. Benjamin
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 06:17:19 PM |
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Pramod Subramanyan wrote:
Briefly stated, the findings are that when presented with an array of
data or a sequence of events in which they are instructed to discover
an underlying order, subjects show strong tendencies to perceive order
and causality in random arrays, to perceive a pattern or correlation
which seems a priori intuitively correct even when the actual
correlation
in the data is counterintuitive, to jump to conclusions about the
correct
hypothesis, to seek and to use only positive or confirmatory evidence,
to
construe evidence liberally as confirmatory, to fail to generate or to
assess alternative hypotheses, and having thus managed to expose
themselves only to confirmatory instances, to be fallaciously
confident
of the validity of their judgments (Jahoda, 1969; Einhorn and Hogarth,
1978). In the analyzing of past events, these tendencies are
exacerbated
by failure to appreciate the pitfalls of post hoc analyses.
-- A. Benjamin
Translation. "Oh look, that cloud looks like a horsey"
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 11:04:14 AM |
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This neither proves or supports ANYTHING!
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127133484.945901.47190@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Briefly stated, the findings are that when presented with an array of
data or a sequence of events in which they are instructed to discover
an underlying order, subjects show strong tendencies to perceive order
and causality in random arrays, to perceive a pattern or correlation
which seems a priori intuitively correct even when the actual
correlation
in the data is counterintuitive, to jump to conclusions about the
correct
hypothesis, to seek and to use only positive or confirmatory evidence,
to
construe evidence liberally as confirmatory, to fail to generate or to
assess alternative hypotheses, and having thus managed to expose
themselves only to confirmatory instances, to be fallaciously confident
of the validity of their judgments (Jahoda, 1969; Einhorn and Hogarth,
1978). In the analyzing of past events, these tendencies are
exacerbated
by failure to appreciate the pitfalls of post hoc analyses.
-- A. Benjamin
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 06:16:02 PM |
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AngryJohn wrote:
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
If they all exist then all choices are correct.
Now which one of those gods is for beer, sex, and hockey?
Exactly. All seem to be for beer and sex.
You'll have to pray to find out which are for hockey.
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
20 Sep 2005 12:05:14 AM |
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:16:02 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
AngryJohn wrote:
So, UFOs exist.
And we atheists are wrong. ALL the gods exist.
If they all exist then all choices are correct.
Now which one of those gods is for beer, sex, and hockey?
Exactly. All seem to be for beer and sex.
You'll have to pray to find out which are for hockey.
Unprotected hetero sex... just to be clear about it.
Ben
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
20 Sep 2005 07:04:08 AM |
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DanielSan wrote:
Kant wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns96D68912B1E42Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Present the verifiable evidence that requires explaining.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
Thousands of witness testimony from around the world.
So, UFOs exist.
Yeah, of course they exist. Everytime someone sees something in the air
and does not know what it is, that is a UFO by definition.
</nitpick>
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| User: "Goodness Godless" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 12:39:02 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Of Knowing And Not Knowing
Elvis, Haldane, And Excessive Self-Assurance
I wonder whether the rigidly scientific approach to the world explains
quite as much as we think it does (and we seem to think it explains
everything).
Everywhere and in all times people have reported sightings of
apparitions and ghosts, hants and inexplicable happenings.
<snip why oh! why oh! why oh! why)>
When are you going to learn what science is about, you silly!
Science, unlike mumbojumbo, says that it cannot explain all
things. That is what the work of science is all about, thying to
explain things.
Saying, 'God did it', is so boring and empty!
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 02:13:01 PM |
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:39:02 +0300, "Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net>
wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Of Knowing And Not Knowing
Elvis, Haldane, And Excessive Self-Assurance
I wonder whether the rigidly scientific approach to the world explains
quite as much as we think it does (and we seem to think it explains
everything).
Everywhere and in all times people have reported sightings of
apparitions and ghosts, hants and inexplicable happenings.
<snip why oh! why oh! why oh! why)>
When are you going to learn what science is about, you silly!
Science, unlike mumbojumbo, says that it cannot explain all
things. That is what the work of science is all about, thying to
explain things.
Saying, 'God did it', is so boring and empty!
and kind of pointless as it does nothing to help any situation.
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| User: "Kant" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
18 Sep 2005 07:38:16 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127089642.398333.98720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Of Knowing And Not Knowing
Elvis, Haldane, And Excessive Self-Assurance
I wonder whether the rigidly scientific approach to the world explains
quite as much as we think it does (and we seem to think it explains
everything).
Everywhere and in all times people have reported sightings of
apparitions and ghosts, hants and inexplicable happenings. These are
dismissed by neurologists as the of glitches in neural functioning, by
psychiatrists as manifestations of schizophrenia or of heightened
suggestibility, by physicists as consequent to curious refractions of
light. But the explanations are usually asserted instead of
substantiated. I wonder.
My impression is that a great many people have had experiences that do
not fit the scientific world view, but do not speak of them for fear of
being thought mad. A few are not so reticent. JBS Haldane, the noted
geneticist, once "went into his home and saw himself sitting in his
own chair smoking his favorite pipe. 'Irregular' was his word for
the phenomenon, 'indigestion' his explanation. He walked across the
room and sat down on his own image."* "Indigestion" of course
makes not the slightest sense.
Examples abound, quietly. A woman of my acquaintance, perfectly sane,
recounts having watched a window in a room at night open by itself. My
father told me of driving one night with a friend in hill country,
whereupon a large truck appeared suddenly over a crest, soundless,
lights blazing, too close to avoid. They drove through it without
effect. "Did you see what I saw?" asked my father of his friend.
"Yes," replied the friend, shaken. They did not, he said, tell
anyone.
Now, I can offer the usual explanations. These people all suffered from
temporary insanity, there is no proof that they weren't actually
making up the stories, their memories were playing tricks (whatever
that means), or they were dreaming and thought they were awake-all of
which seem convenient evasions.
Many people have told me of having had premonitions, as for example
that someone was going to die under certain circumstances, after which
it happened. Others tell of having felt a sudden, terrible fear, as
though something immensely evil were nearby. Most have experienced what
we call déja vu. The plausible reason is always ready to hand:
chemical imbalances, the effect of stress, fragmentary memories of
similar events, what have you.
Is that really what is happening? Maybe. But saying so doesn't make
it so. My father was a hard-headed mathematician, not given to the
occult.
Note that the sciences are incapable of recognizing such phenomena. For
the sake of discussion, let us suppose that some unscientific event
actually occurred-say, that the shade of Elvis in fact appeared in my
living room one night, sang Blue Moon Over Kentucky, and then vanished.
Would science, or any scientist, be able to know it?
I could tell a physicist that I had seen Elvis, of course. He would
assume that I was joking, lying, or deluded. I could report that the
neighbors had heard Blue Moon, but the physicist would say that I had
played the song on my stereo. I might show him video that I had shot of
the appearance, but he would say that I had hired an Elvis
impersonator, or that I had faked the footage with video-editing
software.
In sum, even though it had really happened, he could never know that it
had.
The difficulty is that the sciences can apprehend only the repeatable.
If I could summon Elvis at will, again and again in an instrumented
laboratory, physicists would eventually have to concede that something
was happening, whatever it might be. While scientists defend their
paradigms as fiercely as Marxists or Moslems, they can, after
sufficient demonstration, be swayed by evidence. But without
repeatability, they see no evidence.
Not uncommonly, those in the sciences say that they "do not accept
supernatural explanations." One might observe that the world remains
the same, no matter what they accept. I might choose not to accept the
existence of gravity, but could nonetheless fall over a cliff.
Yet those who do not accept the supernatural never say just what they
mean by "supernatural." By "nature," do we not simply mean,
"that which is"? If for example genuine premonitions exist (which I
do not know), how can they be supernatural, as distinct from poorly
understood?
I think that by supernatural scientists mean "not deducible from
physics." But of course a great many things are not so
deducible-thought, consciousness, free will if any, sorrow, beauty.
Scientists do not accept things which seem to have no physical cause,
and of course as scientists should not accept them. If a comet were
suddenly to change course, it would hardly be useful if an astronomer
said that it just happened, or that a herd of invisible unicorns had
pushed it off course. He, properly, would want to find a gravitational
influence.
Trouble comes when the sciences overstep their bounds. It is one thing
to study physical phenomena, another to say that only physical
phenomena exist. Here science blurs into ideology, an ideology being a
systematic and emotionally held way of misunderstanding the world. A
science is open and descriptive, an ideology closed and prescriptive. A
scientists says, in principle at least, "Give me the facts and I will
endeavor to derive a theory that describes them." The ideologist
says, "I have the theory, and nothing that does not fit it can be a
fact." Having chosen his rut, he never sees beyond it. This has not
been the way of the greats of science, but of the middle ranks,
adequate to swell a progress or work in a laboratory.
In the limitless confidence of this physics-is-all ideology there is a
phenomenal arrogance. Perhaps we overestimate ourselves. As temporary
phenomena ourselves in a strange universe we don't really understand,
here for reasons we do not know, waiting to go somewhere or nowhere as
may be, we might display a more becoming humility. But won't.
Long ago in a computer lab that I frequented late at night, a white
mouse lived. It had escaped from the biology people. As I labored over
a keypunch, the wee beastie scurried about behind the line-printer. It
seemed to know where to find water, where the fragments of potato chips
lay, and where it could sleep warmly.
I reflected that it probably thought it understood its world, which
consisted of power supplies, magnetic-core memory, address buses, and
the arcana of assembly-language programming. I'd estimate that
humanity just about knows where the potato chips are.
*JBS: The Life and Work of J.B.S. Haldane, by Ronald Clark, p.111
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Haldane.shtml
Read : Hostage to the Devil-The Exorcism of 5 contemporary Americans by
Father Malachai Martin.
This is a phenomenon with so many collateral anomalies that many
psychiatrists consult the Exorcist when odd things develop while patients
are under their care.
One Psychiatrist interviewed in the book tells about the demon from within a
man calling the doctor "Peter the Eater" repeatedly and speaking of personal
things only the doctor could know.
Turned out that the good doctors first love had called him that name after
their first sexual encounter and that this patient had no way of knowing
that since the doctor never told a soul about the curtsy little name the
former girlfriend had given him.
This man was also arresting for running amok and inside the jail cell it
rained and was feezing cold much to the consternation of the police.
This was also featured on unsolved mysteries series.
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| User: "nobody" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 02:20:58 AM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
The only point being made worthy is that science relies on some sort
of testability (more general concept than repeatability) so that it
has no mechanism in place to evaluate true anomalies (conceptually
different from anomalies that have a low probability, which you can
theoretically discover sometime and incorporate into your model). So,
is it possible that events may occur for which science will have no
way of determining if they did or not? Yes. Then, however, what's the
significance of whether we believe or not, that they happened?
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 10:47:25 AM |
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:20:58 GMT, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
The only point being made worthy is that science relies on some sort
of testability (more general concept than repeatability) so that it
has no mechanism in place to evaluate true anomalies (conceptually
different from anomalies that have a low probability, which you can
theoretically discover sometime and incorporate into your model). So,
is it possible that events may occur for which science will have no
way of determining if they did or not? Yes. Then, however, what's the
significance of whether we believe or not, that they happened?
Intellectual integrity?
Ben
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| User: "nobody" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 08:28:27 PM |
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Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-dollars@pobox.com> wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:20:58 GMT, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
The only point being made worthy is that science relies on some sort
of testability (more general concept than repeatability) so that it
has no mechanism in place to evaluate true anomalies (conceptually
different from anomalies that have a low probability, which you can
theoretically discover sometime and incorporate into your model). So,
is it possible that events may occur for which science will have no
way of determining if they did or not? Yes. Then, however, what's the
significance of whether we believe or not, that they happened?
Intellectual integrity?
If you cannot test which position is "truer", how can tell which one's
got more "intellectual integrity"?
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
20 Sep 2005 12:21:38 AM |
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:28:27 GMT, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-dollars@pobox.com> wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:20:58 GMT, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
The only point being made worthy is that science relies on some sort
of testability (more general concept than repeatability) so that it
has no mechanism in place to evaluate true anomalies (conceptually
different from anomalies that have a low probability, which you can
theoretically discover sometime and incorporate into your model). So,
is it possible that events may occur for which science will have no
way of determining if they did or not? Yes. Then, however, what's the
significance of whether we believe or not, that they happened?
Intellectual integrity?
If you cannot test which position is "truer", how can tell which one's
got more "intellectual integrity"?
The significance of whether we believe, or not, that they happened puts our
intellectual integrity at risk. For example, a few weeks ago a woman in Florida
walks down a street preaching in the nude with her children. She said that God
told her to do it. Do you believe that God told her to do it?
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=18289
Ben
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 08:09:04 AM |
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Can Science Explain The Supernatural ?
No.
Is that a problem for sience?
No.
Is that a problem for knowledge?
No.
Mark.
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| User: "Vivapadrepios personal Cthulhu" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
20 Sep 2005 01:18:05 AM |
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Cometh the hour, cometh "words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com>
who, with imperceptibly subtle footwork in alt.atheism, gave us this:
I wonder whether the rigidly scientific approach to the world explains
quite as much as we think it does (and we seem to think it explains
everything).
Please leave some straw for the gerbils to nest in, thanks.
------------------------------------------------
"The real dichotomy in today's world is between reason and religion.
The future of civilisation rests upon how many people realise that and do something about it."
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Can Science Explain The Supernatural ? |
19 Sep 2005 08:07:20 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
....
In the limitless confidence of this physics-is-all ideology there is a
phenomenal arrogance. Perhaps we overestimate ourselves. As temporary
phenomena ourselves in a strange universe we don't really understand,
here for reasons we do not know, waiting to go somewhere or nowhere as
may be, we might display a more becoming humility. But won't.
And let us not forget the arrogance of those who demand humility from
others.
Contrary to this Argument from Ignorance, the question of the
supernatural CAN be addressed by science. If there were a supernatural,
it would have some definite observable consequences. Stephen Hawking has
pointed out that a supernatural would introduce a distinct anisotropy in
our universe, as well as rendering the universe quite unpredictable.
Neither effect has been observed, which is strong evidence that a
supernatural does not exist.
Regards,
Josef
To know that the Bible is the literature of a barbarous people, to know
that it is uninspired, to be certain that the supernatural does not and
cannot exist - all this is but the beginning of wisdom.
-- Robert G. Ingersoll
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