| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
08 Oct 2005 05:10:59 AM |
| Object: |
Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
He says it's not the micros of evolution that concern him, it's the
macros -- how the eyeball came to be; how life got going. The eyeball,
he explained, is an example of what intelligent-design proponents call
"irreducible complexity." Meaning it has God's fingerprints on it,
God's hands reaching into the wet clay of life. It didn't develop
through Darwinian random genetic mutation.
In the United States, teaching intelligent design in the schools has
politicians, educators, parents and the media immersed in a cauldron
of controversy and conflict.
But in a Toronto publicly funded high school, Bob Giza teaches
intelligent design alongside evolution sans fuss, politicians'
polemics or outraged parents.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051008/ID08/TPEducation/
or http://tinyurl.com/8bwte
J. Spaceman
.
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| User: "Bob Pease" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 08:42:38 AM |
|
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
He says it's not the micros of evolution that concern him, it's the
macros -- how the eyeball came to be; how life got going. The eyeball,
he explained, is an example of what intelligent-design proponents call
"irreducible complexity." Meaning it has God's fingerprints on it,
God's hands reaching into the wet clay of life. It didn't develop
through Darwinian random genetic mutation.
In the United States, teaching intelligent design in the schools has
politicians, educators, parents and the media immersed in a cauldron
of controversy and conflict.
But in a Toronto publicly funded high school, Bob Giza teaches
intelligent design alongside evolution sans fuss, politicians'
polemics or outraged parents.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051008/ID08
/TPEducation/
or http://tinyurl.com/8bwte
This proves that Catholic Schools also hire morons.
His eyeball theory shows no reading whatever to the contrary.
In a recent post in TO, a poster gave specific examples of four independent
cases of eyeball evolution, easily explained by Natural Selection and having
no need for assistance from Sky Magick.
"Mr. Giza, who has appeared on TV with Prof. Behe, makes classroom use of
both Darwin's Black Box and Climbing Mount Improbable, by militant atheist
and Oxford University professor Richard Dawkins"
It would be high comedy to visit his classroom when he is "Using" Dawkins .
Why not just pipe in EWTV and CNS TV Goons to liven thing up even more.
****
"Yup, Folks,,
We all did climb from SlimeAAAGH!!,
Trudge from SludgeAAAGH!!,
Come from scumAAAGH!
Flew from stewAAAGH!,
Bud From MudAAAH!
(pause)
NOT!!
NOTTA!
NOTAAAGH!
Santalosantalay abatasta deo whooshy blusteraaahg!
Hatta mustuva imashipap
PRAISE GODDAAGH!
( Continued for 18 minutes nonstop)
Think I'm kidding or exaggerating??
Get some Giunness or a joint ( Over 21 where possesion is legal only) and
prepare for an evening of hyperbolic rhetoric
*****
The rest of the article gives a different slant than the clipped portion
here would indicate,
In particular Giza is an active Beheist and consorter.
Also the separation of Church and State is not the same in Canada as in US,
making the point of the article moot.
According to the article Giza teaches that Evolution is the correct
mechanism but that God sits at a console in the sky, sending out magick
emanations to direct its course.
Yup.
His sidekick in the department says that he would rather just skip this and
teach biology and evolution instead.
Read the article, It's comical..
RJ Pease
.
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| User: "turk" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 06:14:15 AM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage. Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
--
My last vestige of "hands off religion" respect disappeared in the smoke and
choking dust of September 11th 2001, followed by the "National Day of
Prayer," when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King
impersonations and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold
hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the
first place.
-- Richard Dawkins, The Devil's Chaplain (2004)
.
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| User: "TomS" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 06:59:36 AM |
|
|
"On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:14:15 -0500, in article
<n9KdnYu2GqGVN9reRVn-uw@comcast.com>, turk stated..."
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage. Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
If the question is "How do you make an eyeball from no eyeball?",
then the answer is to be found in developmental biology, not
evolutionary biology. If "Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good",
then how does an animal develop from a single fertlized egg into an
animal with a full eyeball?
And I am not being facetious about this. In the 18th century,
there were many intelligent, well-informed, serious investigators
who did argue that development was impossible for this very reason.
They argued that each individual living thing had to be the result
of an special creative act.
Are the modern creationists abandoning the idea that each of
us is a creature of God, for the idea that some collection of
limited secondary designers, at some time in the distant past,
made a design decision for the structure of vertebrates - including
the vertebrate eye - and then were no longer interested in, or
were incapable of, doing anything of interest?
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
--
---Tom S. <http://talkreason.org/articles/chickegg.cfm>
"It is not too much to say that every indication of Design in the Kosmos is so
much evidence against the Omnipotence of the Designer. ... The evidences ... of
Natural Theology distinctly imply that the author of the Kosmos worked under
limitations..." John Stuart Mill, "Theism", Part II
.
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| User: "bigmick" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 07:17:30 AM |
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"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
---> so ID is just the "God of the gaps" once AGAIN. what a fool.... as
if science can explain the entire universe overnight. fucking hell! its
so frustrating and so entirely predictable. as technology propels us
into the future, religion pulls us back into the dark ages.
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 02:41:08 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet turk (turk96@comcast.net)
made the light shine upon us with this:
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things
the experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary
natural selection accounts for the state of all living organisms]
can't answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve
a very important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an
advantage. Not to mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better
eye than humans that doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are
the chosen ones.
http://www.hello-cthulhu.com/?date=2003-11-30
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
Plonked by Raytard
.
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| User: "Tom Peel" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 11:17:10 AM |
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turk wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage. Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as well.
T.
.
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| User: "Lt. Kizhe Catson" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
11 Oct 2005 02:02:43 PM |
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Tom Peel wrote:
turk wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage. Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as well.
So far, only the Ontario Catholic system, apparently. Tax-supported,
largely by being grand-fathered in. Basically, you declare which system
you'll be sending your kids to, and that's where the education portion
of your property taxes go. Sort of "vouchers-lite" (and limited to the
RC system -- other religious schools need not apply).
-- Kizhe
.
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| User: "Noone Inparticular" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
11 Oct 2005 02:11:10 PM |
|
|
Lt. Kizhe Catson wrote:
Tom Peel wrote:
turk wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage. Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as well.
So far, only the Ontario Catholic system, apparently. Tax-supported,
largely by being grand-fathered in. Basically, you declare which system
you'll be sending your kids to, and that's where the education portion
of your property taxes go. Sort of "vouchers-lite" (and limited to the
RC system -- other religious schools need not apply).
Whoah. Canada has a sort of line item veto option for taxpayers? Kewl.
I'd love to be able to designate where my taxes go.
Or are taxes just apportioned (as above) based on a percent of the
population going to those schools?
-- Kizhe
.
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| User: "Patrick Keenan" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
11 Oct 2005 02:57:07 PM |
|
|
"Noone Inparticular" <unreve89@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129057870.407470.290310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Lt. Kizhe Catson wrote:
Tom Peel wrote:
turk wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are
taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at
Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky
frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he
developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things
the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary
natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve
a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage.
Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans
that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as
well.
So far, only the Ontario Catholic system, apparently. Tax-supported,
largely by being grand-fathered in. Basically, you declare which system
you'll be sending your kids to, and that's where the education portion
of your property taxes go. Sort of "vouchers-lite" (and limited to the
RC system -- other religious schools need not apply).
Whoah. Canada has a sort of line item veto option for taxpayers?
No, it does not.
Education is under provincial jurisdiction. In Ontario, you specify public
or separate school support on the provincial forms of the income tax return.
And as far as I've seen, that is the *only* example of directed taxation.
And it is definitely *not* a veto; you pay for one or the other.
Kewl.
I'd love to be able to designate where my taxes go.
Aside from that one example, you aren't likely to be looking at Canada,
then.
Or are taxes just apportioned (as above) based on a percent of the
population going to those schools?
It's a checkbox on the provincial tax return form.
Far as I can tell, this only remains in Ontario. It was protected for what
became Ontario and Quebec - but not the Maritimes - in the British North
America Act of 1867. Manitoba, which joined in 1870, ended its system in
1890. Quebec switched to language-based schools in 1988, and NF&L ended
theirs in 1999.
HTH
-pk
-- Kizhe
.
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| User: "Robert Weldon" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
11 Oct 2005 06:15:20 PM |
|
|
"Patrick Keenan" <test@dev.null> wrote in message
news:oOU2f.4362$S43.453208@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Noone Inparticular" <unreve89@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129057870.407470.290310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Lt. Kizhe Catson wrote:
Tom Peel wrote:
turk wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are
taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at
Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development
of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky
frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he
developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things
the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary
natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve
a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage.
Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans
that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as
well.
So far, only the Ontario Catholic system, apparently. Tax-supported,
largely by being grand-fathered in. Basically, you declare which
system
you'll be sending your kids to, and that's where the education portion
of your property taxes go. Sort of "vouchers-lite" (and limited to the
RC system -- other religious schools need not apply).
Whoah. Canada has a sort of line item veto option for taxpayers?
No, it does not.
Education is under provincial jurisdiction. In Ontario, you specify
public
or separate school support on the provincial forms of the income tax
return.
And as far as I've seen, that is the *only* example of directed taxation.
And it is definitely *not* a veto; you pay for one or the other.
Kewl.
I'd love to be able to designate where my taxes go.
Aside from that one example, you aren't likely to be looking at Canada,
then.
Or are taxes just apportioned (as above) based on a percent of the
population going to those schools?
It's a checkbox on the provincial tax return form.
Far as I can tell, this only remains in Ontario. It was protected for
what
became Ontario and Quebec - but not the Maritimes - in the British North
America Act of 1867. Manitoba, which joined in 1870, ended its system in
1890. Quebec switched to language-based schools in 1988, and NF&L ended
theirs in 1999.
HTH
-pk
-- Kizhe
We have it in Alberta as well.
.
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| User: "Lt. Kizhe Catson" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
11 Oct 2005 02:18:11 PM |
|
|
Noone Inparticular wrote:
Lt. Kizhe Catson wrote:
Tom Peel wrote:
turk wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com...
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
Garbage. There are plenty of primitive eyeballs in nature that serve a very
important fundction. Just sensing light and dark is an advantage. Not to
mention, why did 'God' give the squid a much better eye than humans that
doesn't have the blindspot? Maybe the squid are the chosen ones.
This guy is pathetic. How he remains on a shcool payroll is a crime.
turk
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as well.
So far, only the Ontario Catholic system, apparently. Tax-supported,
largely by being grand-fathered in. Basically, you declare which system
you'll be sending your kids to, and that's where the education portion
of your property taxes go. Sort of "vouchers-lite" (and limited to the
RC system -- other religious schools need not apply).
Whoah. Canada has a sort of line item veto option for taxpayers? Kewl.
I'd love to be able to designate where my taxes go.
Or are taxes just apportioned (as above) based on a percent of the
population going to those schools?
Been years since I had to do anything about it (and my kids are now on
to college), but this public/Catholic school support option is the only
example I know of (and possibly only in Ontario). IIRC, we filled out
some forms back at Kindergarten enrollment -- or maybe when we bought
our house and were enrolled for property tax -- and that was that.
-- Kizhe
.
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| User: "Friar Broccoli" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 12:44:50 PM |
|
|
Tom Peel wrote:
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as well.
It most definitely has not, however, in some (maybe all)
provinces, independent schools are allowed to add to the
curriculum, just so long as they get all the required stuff
in. Anyway, it seems very likely that this guy is expressing
a personal opinion, since he is teaching at a Catholic
school.
In general there is a very polite, but very firm hostility
to all things USanian in Canada. W has been wonderful at
solidifying this attitude.
A rather extreme (possibly even insane) example of this,
which arises from our hostility to the "US War on Drugs" is
now playing out in Quebec provincial politics:
The lead candidate to head the provincial opposition party
(the PQ which has a nearly 100% chance of winning the next
election) is a guy named Andre Boisclair. About 2 or 3 weeks
ago he publicly admitted using cocaine WHILE he was a
cabinet minister (top guy in a government department) in a
previous government. Other reports said he had been doing
a lot of cocaine.
The result: A dramatic increase in his popularity. He will
almost certainly win the leadership of his party on Nov
15th, possibly on the first ballot.
Since our current premiere is a lying (yes I can demonstrate
intent) weasel, I am going to wind up voting for someone
with a serious addiction problem, heading a party that is
working for the breakup of Canada.
Irrational behaviour all around.
Cordially;
Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor: http://www.semware.com
--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ---------
.
|
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| User: "Brett Aubrey" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 07:13:20 PM |
|
|
"Friar Broccoli" <EliasRK@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128793489.972764.108110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom Peel wrote:
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as
well.
It most definitely has not, however, in some (maybe all)
provinces, independent schools are allowed to add to the
curriculum, just so long as they get all the required stuff
in. Anyway, it seems very likely that this guy is expressing
a personal opinion, since he is teaching at a Catholic
school.
In general there is a very polite, but very firm hostility
to all things USanian in Canada. W has been wonderful at
solidifying this attitude.
I would disagree with your first sentence in the above paragraph. T'is
simply far too sweeping a generalization. Based on my experiences, I'd
guess that we largely agree with most Dems on many issues. Of course, we do
like social safety nets even more than the average Democrat, but there are
many aspects of American culture and industry that are too widely liked/used
in Canada to support a contention of anything close to "very firm hostility
to all things USanian".
We have, however, disagreed over the years with actions such as the U.S. has
taken in Vietnam and Iraq II (Iraq I was considered OK since it was stopping
Hussain's overthrow of Kuwait). We're also not thrilled with the U.S. gun
culture, 'though where I'm from in Canada, that's by no means universal.
And we'd really like our $5B back that was taken as unfair softwood lumber
industry duties (aside from NAFTA and Mexico, now even the WSJ has come out
on our side of this issue.)
A rather extreme (possibly even insane) example of this,
which arises from our hostility to the "US War on Drugs" is
now playing out in Quebec provincial politics:
The lead candidate to head the provincial opposition party
(the PQ which has a nearly 100% chance of winning the next
election) is a guy named Andre Boisclair. About 2 or 3 weeks
ago he publicly admitted using cocaine WHILE he was a
cabinet minister (top guy in a government department) in a
previous government. Other reports said he had been doing
a lot of cocaine.
The result: A dramatic increase in his popularity. He will
almost certainly win the leadership of his party on Nov
15th, possibly on the first ballot.
Since our current premiere is a lying (yes I can demonstrate
intent) weasel, I am going to wind up voting for someone
with a serious addiction problem, heading a party that is
working for the breakup of Canada.
Irrational behaviour all around.
Cordially;
Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor: http://www.semware.com
--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ---------
.
|
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| User: "Friar Broccoli" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 07:26:27 PM |
|
|
TOP POSTING only:
I pretty much agree with everything you said.
I just find that an occassional round of hyperbola helps
clear the bowels.
Cordially;
Keith Elias
Brett Aubrey wrote:
"Friar Broccoli" <EliasRK@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128793489.972764.108110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom Peel wrote:
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
I didn't realize ID had penetrated the Canadian educational system as
well.
It most definitely has not, however, in some (maybe all)
provinces, independent schools are allowed to add to the
curriculum, just so long as they get all the required stuff
in. Anyway, it seems very likely that this guy is expressing
a personal opinion, since he is teaching at a Catholic
school.
In general there is a very polite, but very firm hostility
to all things USanian in Canada. W has been wonderful at
solidifying this attitude.
I would disagree with your first sentence in the above paragraph. T'is
simply far too sweeping a generalization. Based on my experiences, I'd
guess that we largely agree with most Dems on many issues. Of course, we do
like social safety nets even more than the average Democrat, but there are
many aspects of American culture and industry that are too widely liked/used
in Canada to support a contention of anything close to "very firm hostility
to all things USanian".
We have, however, disagreed over the years with actions such as the U.S. has
taken in Vietnam and Iraq II (Iraq I was considered OK since it was stopping
Hussain's overthrow of Kuwait). We're also not thrilled with the U.S. gun
culture, 'though where I'm from in Canada, that's by no means universal.
And we'd really like our $5B back that was taken as unfair softwood lumber
industry duties (aside from NAFTA and Mexico, now even the WSJ has come out
on our side of this issue.)
A rather extreme (possibly even insane) example of this,
which arises from our hostility to the "US War on Drugs" is
now playing out in Quebec provincial politics:
The lead candidate to head the provincial opposition party
(the PQ which has a nearly 100% chance of winning the next
election) is a guy named Andre Boisclair. About 2 or 3 weeks
ago he publicly admitted using cocaine WHILE he was a
cabinet minister (top guy in a government department) in a
previous government. Other reports said he had been doing
a lot of cocaine.
The result: A dramatic increase in his popularity. He will
almost certainly win the leadership of his party on Nov
15th, possibly on the first ballot.
Since our current premiere is a lying (yes I can demonstrate
intent) weasel, I am going to wind up voting for someone
with a serious addiction problem, heading a party that is
working for the breakup of Canada.
Irrational behaviour all around.
Cordially;
Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor: http://www.semware.com
--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ---------
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 08:06:34 AM |
|
|
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
news:2d3fk1dojj6rrssc3jjuselm5a5no630fk@4ax.com:
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
Bob Giza is the teacher every parent prays her kid will have in high
school. A torrent of energy and inspiration. A dynamo of community
activism. An educator given awards by his peers for his teaching
skills in and out of the classroom.
But here is the thing about Mr. Giza, 58, head of science at Chaminade
College School, an all-boys Roman Catholic high school in suburban
North York: The students taught biology by him more than likely
learned that intelligent design offers a more complete explanation
than unalloyed Darwinian evolution for the origins and development of
planetary life.
"Take the eyeball," he said a couple of days ago, his fit, lanky frame
sprawled in a chair.
A few metres away from where he sits is the fish hatchery he developed
with his students to stock Black Creek with brown trout that
disappeared from the pollution-stressed waterway in the 1950s.
"How did the eyeball develop? How do you make an eyeball from no
eyeball? Three-quarters of an eyeball is no good. There are things the
experts [who hold that Charles Darwin's theory of evolutionary natural
selection accounts for the state of all living organisms] can't
answer."
He says it's not the micros of evolution that concern him, it's the
macros -- how the eyeball came to be; how life got going. The eyeball,
he explained, is an example of what intelligent-design proponents call
"irreducible complexity." Meaning it has God's fingerprints on it,
God's hands reaching into the wet clay of life. It didn't develop
through Darwinian random genetic mutation.
In the United States, teaching intelligent design in the schools has
politicians, educators, parents and the media immersed in a cauldron
of controversy and conflict.
But in a Toronto publicly funded high school, Bob Giza teaches
intelligent design alongside evolution sans fuss, politicians'
polemics or outraged parents.
No, but he's apt to hear from the Jesuits in the biology dept of the
universities his students begin to attend.
The problem with ID is not its conclusion, but rather its claim of
special interventions backed by zero evidence. The Church has always
believed in God's ultimate sovereignty over all things, even those we
humans categorize as "random chance." But latter-day theocrats have used
the separation of Church and State in the USA to try to force their bad
logic and even worse theology into classrooms. I'm pretty sure Giza is
restricted to orthodox Christian theology and would get a pretty sharp
reprimand from his own authorities if he strayed from it.
That's not the same thing as putting theology into a PUBLIC school
system. Ontario's RCC schools are subsidized by the Province, but only
for the SECULAR portion of their curriculum (as far as I know). Giza is
free to teach any religious values he wants there as long as the
financial burden of that part of the teaching is borne by the Church
(which is usually out of pocket on the deal anyway). Moreover, this is a
theologically CONTROLLED environment. He cannot just spout heresies but
must stick to orthodox Christian doctrines even when he does go into
religious values. There is no such restriction on the secular public
school venues, which is why it is better to keep religion altogether out
of them.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Grace Haliburton" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 04:20:17 PM |
|
|
Dave Oldridge wrote:
That's not the same thing as putting theology into a PUBLIC school
system. Ontario's RCC schools are subsidized by the Province, but only
for the SECULAR portion of their curriculum (as far as I know). Giza is
free to teach any religious values he wants there as long as the
financial burden of that part of the teaching is borne by the Church
(which is usually out of pocket on the deal anyway). Moreover, this is a
theologically CONTROLLED environment. He cannot just spout heresies but
must stick to orthodox Christian doctrines even when he does go into
religious values. There is no such restriction on the secular public
school venues, which is why it is better to keep religion altogether out
of them.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the RCC has lent any support to ID,
much less declared it "orthodox Christian doctrine." Seems to me he's
just adding in his own personal religious views unsupported by any
study of Catholic theology. And he's doing it in the *publicly funded*
biology class in the *secular* portion of the curriculum. So apparently
neither Ontario nor the RCC is as effective as they might like in
implementing the restrictions you mention.
-Grace
"Never trust anything that thinks for itself if you can't see where it
keeps its brain." -J.K. Rowling
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 08:19:22 PM |
|
|
"Grace Haliburton" <kaosgrace@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1128806417.038662.274340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
That's not the same thing as putting theology into a PUBLIC school
system. Ontario's RCC schools are subsidized by the Province, but
only for the SECULAR portion of their curriculum (as far as I know).
Giza is free to teach any religious values he wants there as long as
the financial burden of that part of the teaching is borne by the
Church (which is usually out of pocket on the deal anyway).
Moreover, this is a theologically CONTROLLED environment. He cannot
just spout heresies but must stick to orthodox Christian doctrines
even when he does go into religious values. There is no such
restriction on the secular public school venues, which is why it is
better to keep religion altogether out of them.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the RCC has lent any support to
ID, much less declared it "orthodox Christian doctrine." Seems to me
he's just adding in his own personal religious views unsupported by
any study of Catholic theology. And he's doing it in the *publicly
funded* biology class in the *secular* portion of the curriculum. So
apparently neither Ontario nor the RCC is as effective as they might
like in implementing the restrictions you mention.
Orthodox Christian doctrine, as embodied in the Nicene Creed states that
God the Father Almighty is the creator of all things, visible and
invisible. So, to the extent that the creed makes this statement, that
is orthodox Christian doctrine. But this, in no way states anything
about evolution being false--only that God's sovereignty, being universal
extends to all of the events entailed.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Ian H Spedding" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 06:33:47 AM |
|
|
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
[...]
This is not a question of tolerance. Poor teaching standards should
not be tolerated. Mr Giza is teaching Intelligent Design -
"creationism in a cheap tuxedo" - as an alternative to evolution in a
science class, where it has no place being. He is misleading his
students, there are no two ways about it. Unfortunately, there appear
to be no grounds in Canadian law on which to mount a legal challenge.
Ian
--
Ian H Spedding
.
|
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 08:09:14 AM |
|
|
"Ian H Spedding" <ian.spedding@homecall.co.uk> wrote in
news:1128771227.228698.176610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
[...]
This is not a question of tolerance. Poor teaching standards should
not be tolerated. Mr Giza is teaching Intelligent Design -
"creationism in a cheap tuxedo" - as an alternative to evolution in a
science class, where it has no place being. He is misleading his
students, there are no two ways about it. Unfortunately, there appear
to be no grounds in Canadian law on which to mount a legal challenge.
No, but it's a school paid for and supported by the RCC. I'm not sure
his teaching position would survive scrutiny from the faculty of a good
Catholic University. And a lot of those guys are clergy as well as
scientists.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
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| User: "Puppet_Sock" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
13 Oct 2005 09:35:31 AM |
|
|
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"Ian H Spedding" <ian.spedding@homecall.co.uk> wrote in
news:1128771227.228698.176610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are taught
side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
[...]
This is not a question of tolerance. Poor teaching standards should
not be tolerated. Mr Giza is teaching Intelligent Design -
"creationism in a cheap tuxedo" - as an alternative to evolution in a
science class, where it has no place being. He is misleading his
students, there are no two ways about it. Unfortunately, there appear
to be no grounds in Canadian law on which to mount a legal challenge.
No, but it's a school paid for and supported by the RCC. I'm not sure
his teaching position would survive scrutiny from the faculty of a good
Catholic University. And a lot of those guys are clergy as well as
scientists.
Ok, I have not looked *TOO* closely at the specifics of this
situation. But, in Ontario (where North York is) Catholic
high schools are fully funded by the province. I don't know
if this particular one is so funded, as there are some privately
run Catholic schools. Just as there are some privately run
schools of other denominations, and a few non-religious ones.
Not many, but a few.
<historyWonk>
This dates back to the formation of Canada as a dominion. The
deal back in 1867 was, in order to keep the Catholics and the
Protestants relatively ok with the new country, there would be
two school systems. One C and one P. The C one went on to become
the Catholic separate school system. The P one went on to morph
into the public school system, and lose most (not quite all) of
its religious background. But the C one sued for, and won, full
funding to grade 12, just as the P one gets. Other religions are
left out in the cold. Ontario has felt some heat on this, both
from federal politicians, and from outside the country. It is
seen as religious discrimination to fund only the Catholics.
</historyWonk>
Generally speaking, the Catholic schools in Ontario push the
boundaries of what is allowed with regard to instilling a
pariticular world view. They try to get things through like
requiring teachers to display "appropriate" morality. And
they tend to have rather more religious education than the
typical non-C highschool. Since in *most* cases, the students
are there because the parents are Catholic, this is nearly
always what everybody directly involved wants. (Except maybe
the students, but who asks a highschool student what he/she
wants?) The thing is, since it is govt funding, a lot of people
are grumbling. On both sides.
For example, sometimes the Catholic school is closer by many
miles to the home of a non-Catholic. And it being public
funded, they figure why make Johnny ride the bus for three
hours every day? Or the Catholic highschool has a better
program in some specific (music, technical skills, etc.)
and Janey wants to study that, so wants to go to the C school
even though she's not C. And the C's all want here to become
C to go, but don't want to get *caught* wanting that.
Basically, "watch this space." It may unravel and have big
changes. Or it could sit and "fester" for decades. That's
how things tend to go in Canada.
Socks
.
|
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
13 Oct 2005 04:04:57 PM |
|
|
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1129214131.914684.96170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"Ian H Spedding" <ian.spedding@homecall.co.uk> wrote in
news:1128771227.228698.176610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------
In a North York classroom, intelligent design and Darwinism are
taught side by side
By MICHAEL VALPY
Saturday, October 8, 2005
[...]
This is not a question of tolerance. Poor teaching standards
should not be tolerated. Mr Giza is teaching Intelligent Design -
"creationism in a cheap tuxedo" - as an alternative to evolution in
a science class, where it has no place being. He is misleading his
students, there are no two ways about it. Unfortunately, there
appear to be no grounds in Canadian law on which to mount a legal
challenge.
No, but it's a school paid for and supported by the RCC. I'm not
sure his teaching position would survive scrutiny from the faculty of
a good Catholic University. And a lot of those guys are clergy as
well as scientists.
Ok, I have not looked *TOO* closely at the specifics of this
situation. But, in Ontario (where North York is) Catholic
high schools are fully funded by the province. I don't know
if this particular one is so funded, as there are some privately
run Catholic schools. Just as there are some privately run
schools of other denominations, and a few non-religious ones.
Not many, but a few.
<historyWonk>
This dates back to the formation of Canada as a dominion. The
deal back in 1867 was, in order to keep the Catholics and the
Protestants relatively ok with the new country, there would be
two school systems. One C and one P. The C one went on to become
the Catholic separate school system. The P one went on to morph
into the public school system, and lose most (not quite all) of
its religious background. But the C one sued for, and won, full
funding to grade 12, just as the P one gets. Other religions are
left out in the cold. Ontario has felt some heat on this, both
from federal politicians, and from outside the country. It is
seen as religious discrimination to fund only the Catholics.
</historyWonk>
Generally speaking, the Catholic schools in Ontario push the
boundaries of what is allowed with regard to instilling a
pariticular world view. They try to get things through like
requiring teachers to display "appropriate" morality. And
they tend to have rather more religious education than the
typical non-C highschool. Since in *most* cases, the students
are there because the parents are Catholic, this is nearly
always what everybody directly involved wants. (Except maybe
the students, but who asks a highschool student what he/she
wants?) The thing is, since it is govt funding, a lot of people
are grumbling. On both sides.
For example, sometimes the Catholic school is closer by many
miles to the home of a non-Catholic. And it being public
funded, they figure why make Johnny ride the bus for three
hours every day? Or the Catholic highschool has a better
program in some specific (music, technical skills, etc.)
and Janey wants to study that, so wants to go to the C school
even though she's not C. And the C's all want here to become
C to go, but don't want to get *caught* wanting that.
Basically, "watch this space." It may unravel and have big
changes. Or it could sit and "fester" for decades. That's
how things tend to go in Canada.
Socks
OK. Here in BC, the private religious schools get some subsidy for
textbooks and stuff (not really sure how it is now, but when I was a kid
that was about the total of it).
Of course, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick and Newfoundland all have
substantial RCC membershiy.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Robi" |
|
| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 09:25:17 AM |
|
|
Dave Oldridge wrote:
This is not a question of tolerance. Poor teaching standards should
not be tolerated. Mr Giza is teaching Intelligent Design -
"creationism in a cheap tuxedo" - as an alternative to evolution in a
science class, where it has no place being. He is misleading his
students, there are no two ways about it. Unfortunately, there appear
to be no grounds in Canadian law on which to mount a legal challenge.
No, but it's a school paid for and supported by the RCC. I'm not sure
his teaching position would survive scrutiny from the faculty of a good
Catholic University. And a lot of those guys are clergy as well as
scientists.
I was taught A level biology by a lay brother in Catholic school. He
had no problem teaching evolution. We (the class) even had several
discussions with him about it.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why so many Christians
are proponents of "Intelligent Design". I don't see how it helps their
idea that the world was created by God. How do they make the
extrapolation from a deity that patiently created humans over many
millions of years to the God of the bible?
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| User: "karl" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
13 Oct 2005 11:22:09 AM |
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"Robi" <robi_tola@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128781517.297009.204980@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why so many Christians
are proponents of "Intelligent Design". I don't see how it helps their
idea that the world was created by God. How do they make the
extrapolation from a deity that patiently created humans over many
millions of years to the God of the bible?
Mortal interpretation and metaphor.
I would speculate that they are trying to affix the respectability and
official imprimatur of science on belief of the christian god and bible.
Calling all of the biblical errata parables and metaphors gets tiresome. If
they can come up with a pseudo-scientific alternative that bridges the gap
between the literal creation myth and geological evidence they can feel
secure in continuing to believe.
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| User: "Friar Broccoli" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 01:31:54 PM |
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Robi wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why so many
Christians are proponents of "Intelligent Design".
I am reading this question from Talk.Origins where this
question is discussed endlessly. This response is my
PERSONAL take on what is going on:
It is an almost exclusively US phenomenon arising out of
the constitutionally mandated separation of church and
state (SCS). This has been interpreted by US courts as
prohibiting the teaching of religion in schools because
they are state institutions.
From the viewpoint of Christians the purpose of the SCS has
thus been turned on its head. For them it was originally
intended to prevent the state from interfering with their
religious beliefs, but now it is being used to force their
children to learn what they see as atheistic beliefs, like
evolution (and heliocentrism).
In other words a bunch of Satan worshipping ACLU lawyers
has put the prince of darkness in charge of Americas class
rooms and it has to be stopped!
To get around these atheistic snake oil salesman the
fundamentalist Christian community has got behind a scheme
to right this injustice, with an alternative that is
"legally" non-religious: Intelligent Design (ID). ID just
says that the universe was created by a supreme being in
some unspecified way.
Thus ID is just a way to prevent the state from teaching
children "lies" that would otherwise put them at risk of
burning in Hell for eternity.
I don't see how it helps their idea that the world was
created by God. How do they make the extrapolation from a
deity that patiently created humans over many millions of
years to the God of the bible?
Obviously, it does none of these things. It is just a
method of trying to correct, what they see as, an abusive
misinterpretation of the constitution to limit their
freedom of religion.
Cordially;
Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor: http://www.semware.com
--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ---------
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| User: "Cymric" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 03:54:36 PM |
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Friar Broccoli wrote:
Robi wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why so many
Christians are proponents of "Intelligent Design".
I am reading this question from Talk.Origins where this
question is discussed endlessly. This response is my
PERSONAL take on what is going on:
It is an almost exclusively US phenomenon arising out of
the constitutionally mandated separation of church and
state (SCS). This has been interpreted by US courts as
prohibiting the teaching of religion in schools because
they are state institutions.
From the viewpoint of Christians the purpose of the SCS has
thus been turned on its head. For them it was originally
intended to prevent the state from interfering with their
religious beliefs, but now it is being used to force their
children to learn what they see as atheistic beliefs, like
evolution (and heliocentrism).
In other words a bunch of Satan worshipping ACLU lawyers
has put the prince of darkness in charge of Americas class
rooms and it has to be stopped!
To get around these atheistic snake oil salesman the
fundamentalist Christian community has got behind a scheme
to right this injustice, with an alternative that is
"legally" non-religious: Intelligent Design (ID). ID just
says that the universe was created by a supreme being in
some unspecified way.
Thus ID is just a way to prevent the state from teaching
children "lies" that would otherwise put them at risk of
burning in Hell for eternity.
I don't see how it helps their idea that the world was
created by God. How do they make the extrapolation from a
deity that patiently created humans over many millions of
years to the God of the bible?
Obviously, it does none of these things. It is just a
method of trying to correct, what they see as, an abusive
misinterpretation of the constitution to limit their
freedom of religion.
Cordially;
Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor: http://www.semware.com
--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ---------
Thank you for you're reply.
What you say does make a great deal of sense to me.
Do you agree with me that, by playing this game, they are not going to
achieve the outcome they desire. The danger (to them) may be pupils
that accept evolution as fact will not believe in God because they have
been told that Christianity is incompatible with the theory of
evolution. Man is not an Ape. Accepting ID is, surely, accepting that
the god of creation is not the God of the Old Testament. They lose
either way surely? Even if he was made by a "Designer", a man is still
an ape.
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| User: "Friar Broccoli" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 06:38:36 PM |
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Cymric wrote:
Do you agree with me that, by playing this game, they are not going to
achieve the outcome they desire. The danger (to them) may be pupils
that accept evolution as fact will not believe in God because they have
been told that Christianity is incompatible with the theory of
evolution. Man is not an Ape.
This is already a problem for them; if they take the
Genesis story to mean that God literally created the first
man within the last 10,000 years. So I don't see how ID
(in itself) makes it worse.
No matter how they "play the game" they have very serious
problems. Most of them do believe Adam was real, and that
they will burn in Hell for eternity if they are lead to
believe that the Bible is not literally true.
Accepting ID is, surely, accepting that
the god of creation is not the God of the Old Testament.
Sorry for being difficult, but I don't agree with this
detail of your argument either. As I understand it, ID
carefully avoids saying ANYTHING at all, beyond: An
intelligent designer did it. (There appear to be many
reasons for this, including the legal ones I mentioned.)
Since no details are given the student (or his/her
parents) will be free to fill in the blanks. This,
presumably, is the intent.
To some extent, this might actually work as planned. Since
ID has absolutely nothing to teach, all it can "teach" is
that there are problems with the theory of evolution. If
the IDers succeed at getting this idea into the curriculum
they will "inoculate" many young people against the "evils"
of evolutionary thinking.
We have a very clever IDer on this list named Glenn
(Sheldon I think), who follows this strategy "religiously".
Essentially, all his messages work to describe problems
with evolution, but no one has any idea what his beliefs
are. I wouldn't be surprised to see his name on the first
ID text book.
They lose either way surely? Even if he was made by a
"Designer", a man is still an ape.
As discussed above, ID itself doesn't push any particular
alternative.
However, I have made a similar argument on a few occasions.
In general, I am in favour of "Teach the controversy",
because I am not a Christian, and think that teaching the
controversy will make more people think. Thinking, I
believe, is the enemy of religion. (Note that this
argument is in conflict with my own argument presented
above on "inoculation")
On the other other hand, three of the people I respect most
on Talk.Origins are Christian/evolutionists, so it's hard
for me to be too dogmatic about religious people in general.
In any case, Teach the controversy is, as you seem to
imply, a separate issue from the truth of evolution, which
is no more (or less) incompatible with Christianity than
astronomy, geology or paleontology (or parasitology for
that matter).
Cordially;
Friar Broccoli
Robert Keith Elias, Quebec, Canada Email: EliasRK (of) gmail * com
Best programmer's & all purpose text editor: http://www.semware.com
--------- I consider ALL arguments in support of my views ---------
.
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| User: "Cymric" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
09 Oct 2005 03:45:57 PM |
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Friar Broccoli wrote:
Cymric wrote:
Do you agree with me that, by playing this game, they are not going to
achieve the outcome they desire. The danger (to them) may be pupils
that accept evolution as fact will not believe in God because they have
been told that Christianity is incompatible with the theory of
evolution. Man is not an Ape.
This is already a problem for them; if they take the
Genesis story to mean that God literally created the first
man within the last 10,000 years. So I don't see how ID
(in itself) makes it worse.
No matter how they "play the game" they have very serious
problems. Most of them do believe Adam was real, and that
they will burn in Hell for eternity if they are lead to
believe that the Bible is not literally true.
Accepting ID is, surely, accepting that
the god of creation is not the God of the Old Testament.
Sorry for being difficult, but I don't agree with this
detail of your argument either. As I understand it, ID
carefully avoids saying ANYTHING at all, beyond: An
intelligent designer did it. (There appear to be many
reasons for this, including the legal ones I mentioned.)
Since no details are given the student (or his/her
parents) will be free to fill in the blanks. This,
presumably, is the intent.
To some extent, this might actually work as planned. Since
ID has absolutely nothing to teach, all it can "teach" is
that there are problems with the theory of evolution. If
the IDers succeed at getting this idea into the curriculum
they will "inoculate" many young people against the "evils"
of evolutionary thinking.
We have a very clever IDer on this list named Glenn
(Sheldon I think), who follows this strategy "religiously".
Essentially, all his messages work to describe problems
with evolution, but no one has any idea what his beliefs
are. I wouldn't be surprised to see his name on the first
ID text book.
They lose either way surely? Even if he was made by a
"Designer", a man is still an ape.
As discussed above, ID itself doesn't push any particular
alternative.
However, I have made a similar argument on a few occasions.
In general, I am in favour of "Teach the controversy",
because I am not a Christian, and think that teaching the
controversy will make more people think. Thinking, I
believe, is the enemy of religion. (Note that this
argument is in conflict with my own argument presented
above on "inoculation")
On the other other hand, three of the people I respect most
on Talk.Origins are Christian/evolutionists, so it's hard
for me to be too dogmatic about religious people in general.
In any case, Teach the controversy is, as you seem to
imply, a separate issue from the truth of evolution, which
is no more (or less) incompatible with Christianity than
astronomy, geology or paleontology (or parasitology for
that matter).
Cordially;
Thank you for responding
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
11 Oct 2005 06:38:01 PM |
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Robi wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why so many Christians
are proponents of "Intelligent Design". I don't see how it helps their
idea that the world was created by God. How do they make the
extrapolation from a deity that patiently created humans over many
millions of years to the God of the bible?
Most of the folks who object loudly to evolution are Fundamentalists.
I was brought up Fundie, and I can tell you what their problem is with
evolution: it doesn't fit their "salvation equation." They reason it
(backwards) this way: "Jesus Christ died for our sins, and the
tendency to sin came from Adam. If there was no fall of man in the
Garden of Eden, then there's no reason for Jesus to have died so we can
go to Heaven. So if every word of the Bible isn't literally true, the
whole Salvation thing might not be true either, and maybe there's no
Heaven for us to go to. Therefore, we *must* believe and teach that
every word of the Bible, including the creation story, is literally
true."
I had this pounded into my head from the time I was old enough to have
science class in school. And since ID is just creationism dressed up
in fancy talk, they support ID.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "NashtOn" |
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| Title: Re: Canada: Putting God's fingerprints on high-school biology |
08 Oct 2005 09:42:51 AM |
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Ian H Spedding wro | | |
