| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kenneth Doyle" |
| Date: |
27 Aug 2003 09:55:53 PM |
| Object: |
Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
A couple of months ago, it was reported here in Australia that a
USA branch of the Catholic church was considering the tactic of
declaring "Chapter 11" protection, in anticipation of lawsuits
enacted by victims of priestly peadorasty. I'm just wondering
if there's been any follow-up on the other side of the pond.
It's been silent over here since the original report.
.
|
|
| User: "Born Again Atheist" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
30 Aug 2003 02:26:52 PM |
|
|
"Crazyalec" <oleka2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Hng3b.278578$o%2.129177@sccrnsc02>...
I think they dropped that idea because they'd have to disclose finances.
Interesting article:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=716
A CLOSER LOOK AT VATICAN FINANCES
by Philip F. Lawler
EWTN News
VATICAN (CWN) -- The financial balance sheet for the Holy See,
released at the Vatican today, shows a positive cash balance of $1.67
million for the fiscal year 1995.
Cardinal Edmund Szoka, the president of the Prefecture for the
Economic Affairs of the Holy See, presented the accounts to the press
today, and noted that this is the third consecutive budget surplus for
the Holy See. That performance represents a significant change, since
from 1970 to 1992 the Vatican reported an unbroken string of 23
consecutive budget deficits, topped by a troubling $87 million in red
ink for 1990.
For the 1995 fiscal year, the Vatican's expenses amounted to $192.4
million; revenue was $194.1 million. Cardinal Szoka, an American
prelate who has presided over the Vatican exchequer for four years,
predicted another modest surplus-of a bit more than $300,000-- for
1996. He attributed the more encouraging figures to "the generosity of
the bishops, priests, religious, and laity throughout the world."
The public announcement of the budget figures came after yesterday's
meeting of a panel of cardinals, headed by Vatican Secretary of State
Angelo Sodano, who are charged with supervising the budget for the
Holy See. Cardinal Szoka also sits on the committee, along with
Cardinal Jose Castillo Lara, who heads the Pontifical Commission for
the Vatican City-State.
Technically the consolidated budget figures which Cardinal Szoka
released involve only the work of the Holy See. The budget does not
include the Vatican City-State-which has its own sources of revenue in
the Vatican Museum and stamp collection-and the charitable activities
of the Holy Father, sustained by Peter's Pence.
Peter's Pence, a worldwide collection which allows the Pope to respond
to special needs within the Church around the world, brought in $53.5
million in 1995. Figures for the Vatican City-State are not publically
available.
The structure of the Holy See is made up of 19 organizations-the
Secretariat of State, 9 curial congregations, 3 tribunals, 11
pontifical councils, and various other services of which the most
noteworthy are the Vatican Radio and the official newspaper
L'Osservatore Romano. Taken all together, these agencies employed
2,450 workers at the close of the 1995 fiscal year; another 1,339
people were employed by the Vatican City-State.
The Holy See's revenues come from four sources: dioceses and other
ecclesial entities, real estate, publishing, and investment income.
Receipts on Church investments have doubled since 1994, reflecting a
more professional approach to the financial markets. Overall revenues
increased by 7.7 percent during the past year.
Expenses for 1995, on the other hand, were up by only 7 percent.
Cardinal Szoka gave two reasons for that increase. First, the
employees of the Holy See will receive a 6 percent increase in salary,
effective July 1, 1995; this is the first overall raise for Vatican
workers in the past five years. Second, the fixed costs of the
Secretariat of State reflect the greater diplomatic role which the
Holy See is playing in world affairs. Several new nunciatures, or
Vatican diplomatic posts, have been established since the demise of
the Soviet Union led to a surge in the number of the world's
independent countries.
The rapid switch in the Holy See's financial position-from a position
of chronic deficit to a steady positive balance-has been impressive,
but it is not miraculous. The dramatic improvement stems from an April
1991 meeting of the heads of national episcopal conferences, at which
the world's bishops were enjoined to make financial contributions to
the Vatican. Since that time, these contributions have steadily
increased: by 27 percent in 1993, 82 percent in 1994, and 26 percent
last year.
As explained in the Code of Canon Law (1271), the world's bishops are
to provide the means necessary for the working of the Holy See.
Although the Church code does not provide any formula for assessing
these needs-or for measuring the appropriate diocesan
contribution-Cardinal Szoka points out that all of the activities of
the Holy See are designed to serve the universal Church, and thus
deserve the support of all the faithful.
Cardinal Szoka said that the three countries which have provided the
most generous support for the Holy See have been Germany, the United
States, and Italy-in that order. Nevertheless, the overall annual
budget for the Holy See is only about one-third the size of the budget
for the Archiocese of Cologne; it is roughly equal to the average
budget for a German diocese!
The second major factor contributing to the improved Vatican finances,
in the eyes of most knowledgable observers, has been the no-nonsense
approach adopted by Cardinal Szoka himself. With his businesslike
American approach-in sharp contrast to the more relaxed style that
prevails in most Roman agencies-the former Detroit archbishop has cut
administrative costs, introduced new efficiency measures, and improved
net return on Church investments.
---------------
Notice the last sentence mentions "net return on Church investments"!
Can an organization use its excess revenue to make investments to
increase its net worth? As an organization it is not in any obligation
to pay tax on interest, dividends, and capital gains. Am I right?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jos Flachs" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 01:01:40 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:55:53 GMT, Kenneth Doyle <nobody@notmail.com>
wrote:
A couple of months ago, it was reported here in Australia that a
USA branch of the Catholic church was considering the tactic of
declaring "Chapter 11" protection, in anticipation of lawsuits
enacted by victims of priestly peadorasty. I'm just wondering
if there's been any follow-up on the other side of the pond.
It's been silent over here since the original report.
Not sure if that would fly. Very doubtful. A local church can of
course try to file for Ch 11, but it is up to the court to grand it.
The largest and richest church in the world has to do some serious
wriggling to get off the hook without coughing up.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenneth Doyle" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 09:53:40 PM |
|
|
Jos Flachs <'wcruise'@ksc15.th.com> wrote in
news:7uvqkvcc2l0kcejm6au3f9crqpqpu7115u@4ax.com:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:55:53 GMT, Kenneth Doyle
<nobody@notmail.com> wrote:
A couple of months ago, it was reported here in Australia
that a USA branch of the Catholic church was considering
the tactic of declaring "Chapter 11" protection, in
anticipation of lawsuits enacted by victims of priestly
peadorasty. I'm just wondering if there's been any
follow-up on the other side of the pond. It's been silent
over here since the original report.
Not sure if that would fly. Very doubtful. A local church
can of course try to file for Ch 11, but it is up to the
court to grand it.
The largest and richest church in the world has to do some
serious wriggling to get off the hook without coughing up.
Well, my initial response to the report was that the church was
trying to have their cake and eat it too (so to speak). They
claim tax exemtion on the grounds that their not a business,
then they claim bankruptcy as if they were. They're probably so
used to explaining away contradictions, that they just took this
one for granted.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 05:13:43 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:01:40 +0700, Jos Flachs
<'wcruise'@ksc15.th.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:55:53 GMT, Kenneth Doyle <nobody@notmail.com>
wrote:
A couple of months ago, it was reported here in Australia that a
USA branch of the Catholic church was considering the tactic of
declaring "Chapter 11" protection, in anticipation of lawsuits
enacted by victims of priestly peadorasty. I'm just wondering
if there's been any follow-up on the other side of the pond.
It's been silent over here since the original report.
Not sure if that would fly. Very doubtful. A local church can of
course try to file for Ch 11, but it is up to the court to grand it.
The largest and richest church in the world has to do some serious
wriggling to get off the hook without coughing up.
The sad thing is that ultimately it's their innocent members who will
end up paying.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 01:21:57 PM |
|
|
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote
. . . s n i p . . .
The sad thing is that ultimately it's their innocent members who will
end up paying.
It'll be a good "wake up call" to 'em . . .
My paternal grandparents quit the Catholic church back in the depression . .
.. seems that they were dirt-poor, and often went to bed hungry so their 5
kids could have enough to eat. The parish priests (back then, anyway)
would go door-to-door and make sure all the church members were current on
their church tithes and offerings. Since my grandparents were more
concerned with their 5 kid's meals than with the preist's (were became
increasingly unpleasant with every passing fruitless encounter), my
grandmother gave 'em an earful (and she was the one to do it, too!!) and
they hadn't darkened the door of a church since.
Anyway, if enough catholics feel that too much of their $$$ is going
toward lawsuit settlements, maybe they'll quit donating, and the church will
have to sell its property to pay the bills. Just like my grandparents,
they'll be better off without the damn church.
---Tock
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jeremy Martin" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 03:18:52 PM |
|
|
("Crazyalec" <oleka2000@yahoo.com>):
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:l9lrkv0k7h6948kn2mum8ke4duhqbf7695@4ax.com...
The sad thing is that ultimately it's their innocent members who will
end up paying.
Well, if somebody is paying, he becomes....thats right....a customer.
A customer paying for what? Thats right....for a product or a service.
A product sold by whom? Thats right.....a product is sold by a business.
A business selling a product why?.....thats right....to make profit.
Class dismissed.
A one note song isn't very interesting.
--
Jeremy Martin
I have an aa number, but I'd have to look it up.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeremy Martin" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 05:44:10 PM |
|
|
("Crazyalec" <oleka2000@yahoo.com>):
"Jeremy Martin" <mrbungle@pattonisgod.com> wrote in message
news:vsoskvkveudd4q44ub7g0r3q2ejfs3dce4@4ax.com...
A one note song isn't very interesting.
Oh the one you signing all the time, called "i don't believe in god"?
I don't believe I've signed anything for you, Alec.
--
Jeremy Martin
I have an aa number, but I'd have to look it up.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Crazyalec" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
30 Aug 2003 05:17:49 AM |
|
|
Jeremy Martin <mrbungle@pattonisgod.com> wrote in message news:<fd1tkv4m9671u7lh1fs8d0p0tfcompfjmu@4ax.com>...
("Crazyalec" <oleka2000@yahoo.com>):
"Jeremy Martin" <mrbungle@pattonisgod.com> wrote in message
news:vsoskvkveudd4q44ub7g0r3q2ejfs3dce4@4ax.com...
A one note song isn't very interesting.
Oh the one you signing all the time, called "i don't believe in god"?
I don't believe I've signed anything for you, Alec.
You don't? What about that agreement, that you will stop posting on Usenet?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
30 Aug 2003 04:08:18 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:44:10 -0500, Jeremy Martin wrote:
("Crazyalec" <oleka2000@yahoo.com>):
"Jeremy Martin" <mrbungle@pattonisgod.com> wrote in message
news:vsoskvkveudd4q44ub7g0r3q2ejfs3dce4@4ax.com...
A one note song isn't very interesting.
Oh the one you signing all the time, called "i don't believe in god"?
I don't believe I've signed anything for you, Alec.
Other than commitment papers, I wouldn't sign anything for him either...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "sparkup" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 09:53:12 AM |
|
|
Crazyalec wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:l9lrkv0k7h6948kn2mum8ke4duhqbf7695@4ax.com...
The sad thing is that ultimately it's their innocent members who will
end up paying.
Well, if somebody is paying, he becomes....thats right....a customer.
Or a citizen.
A customer paying for what? Thats right....for a product or a service.
Yep.
A product sold by whom? Thats right.....a product is sold by a business.
Government could be described as a business, I suppose.
A business selling a product why?.....thats right....to make profit.
Nope. Governments are not in existence to make profits, unless it is a
very corrupt one.
Class dismissed.
Class: But what about governments?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Catholic church declares bankruptcy |
28 Aug 2003 08:45:11 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:13:43 +0000, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:01:40 +0700, Jos Flachs <'wcruise'@ksc15.th.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:55:53 GMT, Kenneth Doyle <nobody@notmail.com>
wrote:
A couple of months ago, it was reported here in Australia that a USA
branch of the Catholic church was considering the tactic of declaring
"Chapter 11" protection, in anticipation of lawsuits enacted by victims
of priestly peadorasty. I'm just wondering if there's been any
follow-up on the other side of the pond. It's been silent over here
since the original report.
Not sure if that would fly. Very doubtful. A local church can of course
try to file for Ch 11, but it is up to the court to grand it.
The largest and richest church in the world has to do some serious
wriggling to get off the hook without coughing up.
The sad thing is that ultimately it's their innocent members who will end
up paying.
I'm less and less willing to call the membership of any such organization
"innocent."
After all, these molestation cases have been happening for *years. And not
just in the RCC. In churches all *over the place.
Yet the "innocent members" stick their heads in the sand and let it go on.
At least until society exposes them...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
