Religions > Atheism > Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...!
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Katt" |
| Date: |
25 May 2005 02:30:53 PM |
| Object: |
Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
Catholic leader says British Church is 'in crisis'
By Ruth Gledhill,
Religion Correspondent of The Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1627510,00.html
Read the speech in full
People in Europe are filled with angst and the Roman Catholic
Church is in crisis, the Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac
Murphy-O'Connor,
said tonight.
In a lecture at Westminster Cathedral, the spiritual leader of
more than four million Roman Catholics in England and Wales said the Church
in Europe, and in particular in Britain, was in a time of crisis and of
"dying and rising".
He described the modern European as a "person of angst", in
spite of or perhaps because of the many liberties enjoyed in contemporary
western culture. He warned that Europe will "fall into anguish" if it
forgets God and loses touch with its Judeao-Christian tradition.
The Cardinal argued that the greatest temptation facing Europe
today was not evil but indifference, but he warned that the response to
aggressive secularism cannot be aggressive Christianity. One of the main
tasks facing the Church was to recall Europe to its "roots in God".
He was speaking on the eve of the launch of his long-awaited
"green paper" on the re-organisation of his own diocese of Westminster.
Although just one diocese among 22 in England and Wales, the pioneering
plans of Westminster, this country's "mother" diocese, to radically change
the way it operates in order to cope with the rapidly declining numbers are
being watched closely by church authorities throughout the West.
The Cardinal's green paper, which will be introduced to
parishioners at Masses this weekend, controversially proposes parish mergers
and closures. Parishes will be told that they can no longer assume they will
have a resident priest and that they must prepare for this. Lay people will
be urged to take a more active role in worship, administration and pastoral
care. Numbers of Masses will be reduced and parishes will need to share
staff, prayer ministries and even major liturgies, such as organising
joining celebrations during Holy Week.
Numbers of priests in Britain are dropping as vocations continue
to decline. Some blame the celibacy requirement. In the Westminster
consultation, a number of parishioners served by married priests who left
the Church of England and went over to Rome after the ordination of women
suggested the celibacy requirement should be relaxed. The Cardinal rejects
this as a question for Rome and not for the local church.
Church authorities today continue to insist on the celibacy
discipline and put the decline in vocations down to increasing
secularisation and the reluctance of young people to make lifelong
commitments to unfashionable spiritual values.
From 843 priests working in the ministry in Westminster in 1990,
the number has fallen to 623 today and is projected to be 471 by 2015, a
fall of nearly half in 25 years. Over the same period, the number of
Catholics in the diocese has remained steady, replenished in part by
immigration. Of 500,000 Catholics living in Westminster, which comprises
Greater London north of the Thames plus Hertfordshire, one third, or
150,000, regularly attend Mass. And this year saw a record number of adults,
780, seeking admission to the church through its adult baptism and
confirmation programme.
In his introduction to the green paper, the Cardinal urges
Catholics to continue to pray for priestly vocations. He says:"There is no
reason to lose confidence in the Lord of the harvest who desires to send
labourers into His harvest."
The paper warns that the shift in the image of a Catholic parish
will need to be "profound" and that parishioners and priests will need to
take on a "new mindset" to develop strong lay leadership. It says: "Over the
next 10-15 years, the Church in Westminster will need to move away from the
idea that the viability of a parish is contingent on its resident priest." A
church can no longer be a place where people go to have their own needs met,
it says.
It asks parishes to begin considering their options for the
future, and whether they wish to be closed down, merged, adopted by a larger
parish or "clustered" with one or more other parishes. Precise details of
the plan, the result of a diocese-wide consultation by the Cardinal, will be
published in the "white paper" at the end of the year.
The Cardinal summed up his concerns in his speech at the
cathedral tonight. Referring to the pattern of dying and then rising again
that the Church has undergone through the centuries, he said: "In some ways
the Church in Europe and in particular the Church in Britain is at such a
time now. It is a time of dying and of rising. It is a time of crisis."
He said that by "crisis" he meant a time of decision,
uncertainty and change rather than of disintegration. "We live in a rather
strange, twilight time. We should not be surprised at the challenges and the
nervousness and the fears that face us here in our own country as we look to
the future and the shape of the Church to come."
The lecture was the last in the Faith in Europe? series.
Previous speakers included Sir Bob Geldof, Lord Patten and Mary McAleese and
each talk attracted more than 1,000 people.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
26 May 2005 09:02:43 AM |
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The Catholic Church is thriving in other places. It's been around for
2000 years and is not going to disappear, despite what its critics
hope. Some Marian warnings have pointed to the destruction of Europe,
although the only way I can see that happening is a nuclear war. It
may be that Europe has had its day as the centre of Christianity. God
seems to discard salt that has lost its flavour.
Christianity is exploding in China, is strong in South America and
growing in parts of Asia.
Wealth and secular security usually give rise to a lack of religious
belief. As a rule the rich have always been less religious than the
poor. Yet as Christ said "It is harder for a rich man to get into
heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle".
Since Christ was God in the flesh, His statements have the character of
being eternally true. Therefore that truth must still hold.
Bob Crowley.
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| User: "Jeffrey Goldberg" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impendingcollapse...! |
26 May 2005 01:29:31 PM |
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wrote:
The Catholic Church is thriving in other places. It's been around for
2000 years and is not going to disappear, despite what its critics
hope.
I fear you are correct about that.
Wealth and secular security usually give rise to a lack of religious
belief. As a rule the rich have always been less religious than the
poor.
This is true for countries. With one very notable exception, there are
no religious rich societies.
Yet as Christ said "It is harder for a rich man to get into
heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle".
Are you suggesting that a good Christian should try to impoverish
everyone so that it will be easier for them to enter heaven? This would
run counter to so many things, including current Church teaching.
-j
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
26 May 2005 02:05:27 PM |
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"Jeffrey Goldberg" <nobody@goldmark.org> wrote in message
news:119c5cc6b0grt6f@news.supernews.com...
bobcrowley@optusnet.com.au wrote:
Wealth and secular security usually give rise to a lack of religious
belief. As a rule the rich have always been less religious than the
poor.
This is true for countries. With one very notable exception, there are no
religious rich societies.
Okay then; let's see if we can revise the formulation a bit...
How about: 'there are no religious, rich, literate and educated
societies'...?
Rather nicely gets rid of the 'exception' you were thinking of, doesn't
it...?
:-)
Katt.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
28 May 2005 06:00:56 AM |
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I assume you are American, so even though the USA has become
increasingly humanistic, the fact is that for quite some time now it
has been a "religious, rich, literate and educated society". Obviously
the religious impulse is waning, while the number of problems seems to
be increasing eg. drug addiction, violence in schools, the prison
population, the street people, disparity between rich and poor,
wasteful use of resources and resultant pollution, enormous military
expenditure and so on.
I am a Catholic, and the Catholic Church goes on a lot about social
justice, without sometimes doing much about the root causes in those
countries in which it has a dominant role, unfortunately. The Latin
American societies long had reputations as banana republics, with huge
differences between rich and poor, and the Catholic Church bears some
responsibility for that, as far as I am concerned. Yet when a
previously conservative, politically inactive bishop found his inaction
was insufficient, he was gunned down.
That is different from advocating unlimited wealth, which sometimes
seems to be the case in other brands of Christianity, notably the
Fundamentalist Right. However that is what Christ said, and the
specific episode was the one in which the rich young ruler wanted to
know how to get eternal life. To his credit, he kept all the
commandments, and it is said "Christ looked at him with love". However
when challenged to give up his wealth, he went away very sad.
To be honest, I wonder sometimes what He says to some of those who
advocate the pursuit of endless materialism from the pulpit when they
are themselves called up to the judgement seat. I think He'd want to
know what they did for the "least of these my brothers", and how
closely they identified with them. It was after the "religious
establishment" which first blew the whistle on Christ himself, and if
He were to come back today, I doubt if it would be any different. The
"political establishment" would cooperate with them of course.
Bob Crowley.
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
28 May 2005 06:48:15 AM |
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<bobcrowley@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:1117278056.402210.121080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I assume you are American,
Wrong.
*So* wrong.
In fact, you are as wrong as Mr and Mrs McWrong of Wrongville were, when
they won the Wrongland 'Being Wrong' Prize for the third year running.
so even though the USA has become
increasingly humanistic, the fact is that for quite some time now it
has been a "religious, rich, literate and educated society".
I'm afraid not, Gomer. It isn't literate, and it sure as hell ain't
educated: people who think it is simply aren't spending enough time with its
wider population - which includes 40,000,000 people who can't read or write,
and more than 100,000,000 who think the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.
Add to that the largest per capita prison population on the planet; the
smallest number of political parties in the single or lower house of any
industrialised democracy; and a fundamentalist and regressive religious
culture which resembles that of Talibanistan more than it does any European
democracy, and you see that the USA is essentially a Third World society
with some First World universities in it and a ***** of a lot of weapons.
That's all.
Obviously
the religious impulse is waning, while the number of problems seems to
be increasing eg. drug addiction, violence in schools, the prison
population, the street people, disparity between rich and poor,
wasteful use of resources and resultant pollution, enormous military
expenditure and so on.
I am a Catholic, and the Catholic Church goes on a lot about social
justice,
Yeah, right. That's why I've just watched a gazillion Catholics crying their
stupid eyes out over some dead fuckhead who lived in a golden palace and
spent years of his worthless life stomping on 'liberation theology' and the
rights of women. 'Social justice'? You people wouldn't recognise 'social
justice' if it *moved in next door and shot your dog*...
without sometimes doing much about the root causes in those
countries in which it has a dominant role, unfortunately. The Latin
American societies long had reputations as banana republics, with huge
differences between rich and poor, and the Catholic Church bears some
responsibility for that, as far as I am concerned.
Not as much as the US does. If you want to see the *real* nature of US
policy, look at the one region in the world where US influence has, courtesy
of the 'Monroe Doctrine', always been utterly unopposed. And what do you
see...? Yes: poverty, exploitation, slaughter, inequality, tyranny, and
religious twats like you completely failing to understand every single bit
of it. I trust I'm not going too fast for you?
when a
previously conservative, politically inactive bishop found his inaction
was insufficient, he was gunned down.
Gosh. How surprising. Maybe he was the victim of a US-funded, US-equipped
death squad, like all those other millions. And Pinochet. Hmmmm...?
That is different from advocating unlimited wealth, which sometimes
seems to be the case in other brands of Christianity, notably the
Sorry, munchkin: *your time's up*.
Katt.
Fundamentalist Right. However that is what Christ said, and the
specific episode was the one in which the rich young ruler wanted to
know how to get eternal life. To his credit, he kept all the
commandments, and it is said "Christ looked at him with love". However
when challenged to give up his wealth, he went away very sad.
To be honest, I wonder sometimes what He says to some of those who
advocate the pursuit of endless materialism from the pulpit when they
are themselves called up to the judgement seat. I think He'd want to
know what they did for the "least of these my brothers", and how
closely they identified with them. It was after the "religious
establishment" which first blew the whistle on Christ himself, and if
He were to come back today, I doubt if it would be any different. The
"political establishment" would cooperate with them of course.
Bob Crowley.
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| User: "Jeffrey Goldberg" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impendingcollapse...! |
28 May 2005 08:40:02 PM |
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wrote:
I assume you are American,
I am, but I don't think Katt is.
so even though the USA has become increasingly humanistic, the fact
is that for quite some time now it has been a "religious, rich,
literate and educated society". Obviously the religious impulse is
waning,
Except that it is not. The number of people who say that they would
never vote for an atheist has increased. Church attendance and
contributions to churches have been on the rise. Throughout American
history, there have been swings between the secular and the religious.
We are now at a time when the secular is down, culturally if not legally.
while the number of problems seems to
be increasing eg. drug addiction, violence in schools, the prison
population, the street people, disparity between rich and poor,
wasteful use of resources and resultant pollution, enormous military
expenditure and so on.
I doubt that there is a relation between the bits of that that are true
and the swing to toward religion (with the exception of prison
population; I do think that the political rise of the religious Right
has changed sentencing laws and practice leading to the increased prison
population.)
I am a Catholic, and the Catholic Church goes on a lot about social
justice, without sometimes doing much about the root causes in those
countries in which it has a dominant role, unfortunately. The Latin
American societies long had reputations as banana republics, with
huge differences between rich and poor, and the Catholic Church bears
some responsibility for that, as far as I am concerned.
I've encountered some "Liberation Theology" priests in the past. The
movement seems less radical now, but if it is muted in its message, my
(uninformed) impression is that it is growing in the ranks of the
priesthood. But I've lost contact with that crowd nearly 20 years ago.
Yet when a previously conservative, politically inactive bishop found
his inaction was insufficient, he was gunned down.
I'm sorry, but I seem to have lost the thread. I'm not sure why you
bring up the tragic assassination of Romero. (Or are you talking about
another incident?)
That is different from advocating unlimited wealth, which sometimes
seems to be the case in other brands of Christianity, notably the
Fundamentalist Right. However that is what Christ said, and the
specific episode was the one in which the rich young ruler wanted to
know how to get eternal life. To his credit, he kept all the
commandments, and it is said "Christ looked at him with love".
However when challenged to give up his wealth, he went away very sad.
To be honest, I wonder sometimes what He says to some of those who
advocate the pursuit of endless materialism from the pulpit when they
are themselves called up to the judgement seat.
Condemning prosperity is condemning people to poverty. It's easy to say
that we are too materialistic and that others shouldn't follow in our
path, but you have to be rich to think that way. It's also stomping on
the aspirations of the poor. You can chose poverty for yourself, but
don't chose it for others.
I think He'd want to know what they did for the "least of these my
brothers", and how closely they identified with them. It was after
the "religious establishment" which first blew the whistle on Christ
himself, and if He were to come back today, I doubt if it would be
any different. The "political establishment" would cooperate with
them of course.
Considering that Jesus was killed for challenging the religious
establishment at the time, you would think that those who call
themselves Christians would be more accepting of challenges. But, as
they say, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
-j
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
26 May 2005 09:04:46 AM |
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Since Christ was God in the flesh, His statements have the character of
being eternally true. Therefore that truth must still hold.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
Katt.
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| User: "Muad Dib" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
28 May 2005 01:54:27 PM |
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"Katt" <seruhshjaudn@dfhu.net> scrivened in news:2Ikle.1167$a5.592@newsfe5-
win.ntli.net:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
Thanks for an entertaining read, and wonderful resource.
--
The Bible
If you're going to write a good bit of fantasy fiction, at least put some
goblins or trolls in it, you dumb cunts. Given the choice between this
bollocks and the Lord of the Rings, which one do you think we're going to
go for? The Bible with its bunch of bearded nomad hippies talking shite, or
something with fucking battles and dragons?
And I think you're forgetting the first page, which should read: 'All
characters in this book are fictitious and any resemblance to any real
persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental'.
I liked the bit when God and Jesus have a lightsaber duel on a bridge
though.
Quote from Cunts Corner "http://www.holymoly.co.uk/cc/index.php?alpha=t"
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
28 May 2005 08:52:30 AM |
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On 26 May 2005 07:02:43 -0700, wrote:
The Catholic Church is thriving in other places. It's been around for
2000 years and is not going to disappear, despite what its critics
hope. Some Marian warnings have pointed to the destruction of Europe,
although the only way I can see that happening is a nuclear war. It
may be that Europe has had its day as the centre of Christianity. God
seems to discard salt that has lost its flavour.
Christianity is exploding in China, is strong in South America and
growing in parts of Asia.
Wealth and secular security usually give rise to a lack of religious
belief. As a rule the rich have always been less religious than the
poor. Yet as Christ said "It is harder for a rich man to get into
heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle".
Since Christ was God in the flesh, His statements have the character of
being eternally true. Therefore that truth must still hold.
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHH
You mean the two thousand year lie mainly based on stolen stories and
concepts.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
28 May 2005 02:29:20 PM |
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"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:3rtg91pshro3m524m41ud1pj105hu9cluk@4ax.com...
On 26 May 2005 07:02:43 -0700, wrote:
Since Christ was God in the flesh, His statements have the character of
being eternally true. Therefore that truth must still hold.
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHH
You mean the two thousand year lie mainly based on stolen stories and
concepts.
Brutal, but fair...
:-)
Katt.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic church starts to wise up to the reality of its impending collapse...! |
29 May 2005 01:06:06 PM |
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On Sat, 28 May 2005 19:29:20 GMT, "Katt" <seruhshjaudn@dfhu.net>
wrote:
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:3rtg91pshro3m524m41ud1pj105hu9cluk@4ax.com...
On 26 May 2005 07:02:43 -0700, wrote:
Since Christ was God in the flesh, His statements have the character of
being eternally true. Therefore that truth must still hold.
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHH
You mean the two thousand year lie mainly based on stolen stories and
concepts.
Brutal, but fair...
Of course. Long ago I learned 'sugar-coating' things for the brain
dead was useless. Often, it caused them to miss the point. So now I
spotlight.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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