| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
14 Feb 2006 05:18:56 PM |
| Object: |
Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1569843/posts
http://www.archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=350&s=3&a=7342
The Catholic engine of western progress
By George Weigel
The standard account of the history of the West from, say, 400-1500
would run something like this:
The breakdown of the Roman Empire sent western Europe into the
centuries-long civilizational morass of the "Dark Ages." The West
only began to recover its intellectual elan during the Enlightenment,
and it was during that period, when scientists and political theorists
unshackled themselves from the repressive bonds of Catholic faith, that
"modernity" began to take shape. Democracy and the free market are
primarily Enlightenment projects, although Protestantism had something
to do with the rise of capitalism. Catholicism, on the other hand, had
to be throttled if democracy, the free economy, and science were to
thrive.
Right?
Wrong, according to Baylor University scholar Rodney Stark in his new
book, The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom,
Capitalism, and Western Success (Random House) - a splendid exercise
in intellectual bomb-throwing that combines rigorous scholarship with
readability.
According to Professor Stark, the West became history's most
successful civilization because of the unique theology that undergirded
western culture. Christian theology was both rational and progressive;
it held that knowledge of God and of God's purposes could deepen and
develop over time, to the point where new doctrines could evolve.
Unlike Islam, which froze doctrine in an unchangeable sacred text,
Christianity affirmed the "development of doctrine," and that had a
profound cultural impact - it helped create a civilization that was
future-oriented, that believed in material as well as intellectual and
spiritual progress, and that thought itself obliged to apply human
reason to nature so that the world might become a garden of God (as the
Benedictines had it).
Stark also shows how this distinctively Christian understanding of
theology as a rational and progressive enterprise was "absolutely
essential...for the rise of science," even as it planted in our
culture an understanding of the dignity of the human person and the
value of work. Christian ideas were thus crucial, Stark insists, to the
medieval evolution of "responsive states" that nurtured a
considerable measure of individual freedom, and to the development of
capitalism, which is the application of reason to economic life and
commerce. Thus medieval monks, not dour Dutch Calvinists, were the
world's first successful practitioners of market-driven economics.
Despotism - ancient, medieval, or modern - is the great enemy of
social and economic progress. And it was Christianity, not the
Enlightenment, that vaccinated the West against totalitarianism, by
emphasizing that, while Caesar had his claims, there were limits to
those claims - the limits imposed by the superior claims of God.
There was nothing like this in Islam; we live (and die) with the
results of that difference today.
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had managed.
Other inventions of the "Dark Ages"? How about windmills, the
horse-collar, horseshoes, the heavy plow, fish farming, three-cycle
crop rotation, cloth manufacturing, chimneys, eyeglasses, and clocks?
Don't forget the round-bottomed ship, the sternpost rudder, and the
compass. Or, on the cultural front, the university, modern languages,
polyphony, and Gothic architecture, with its flying buttresses and
stained glass.
As for science, Stark describes Copernicus, not as an isolated
scientist estranged from the Church, but as "one of the best-educated
men of his generation, having trained at the universities of Cracow,
Bologna (possibly the best university in Europe), Padua, and
Ferrara." His heliocentric model of the solar system marked an
evolution, not a revolution, for Copernicus stood on the shoulders of
Christian scholars; contrary to the regnant mythology, the Polish
astronomer was not a forerunner of Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, and
other contemporary scientists who love playing the village atheist,
imagining it an interesting role.
The Victory of Reason is a bracing antidote to the secularist smog that
chokes education today. Give it to any college student you know -
after reading it yourself.
George Weigel is a senior fellow of the Ethics and Public Policy Center
in Washington, D.C. Weigel's column is distributed by the Denver
Catholic Register, the official newspaper of the Archdiocese of Denver.
Phone: 303-715-3215.
.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 09:38:20 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Subject: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress
....for Nations in Reverse.
Reverse is progress, too.
--
Doc Smartass XP - New Interface, Same Old *****
Keep THOR in THURSDAY!
.
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| User: "William Black" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 05:42:34 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had managed.
Oh dear.
If that's an example of his scholarship he really does need to read a book.
Water mills were used by the Romans, in bloody great swathes.
Same for clever hydraulic management.
And cheap paper doesn't come about until the invention of the 'Hollander' in
the seventeenth century, and guess where it was invented (the name's clue).
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 07:08:01 PM |
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"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically produced paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
BAM
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| User: "William Black" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 03:38:03 AM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:w6vIf.15823$Ly6.4769@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically produced
paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Mechanically produced paper requires the use of a Hollander.
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 08:47:58 AM |
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"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsusmq$gc0$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:w6vIf.15823$Ly6.4769@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically produced
paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Mechanically produced paper requires the use of a Hollander.
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in your
place.
BAM
.
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| User: "William Black" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 11:31:22 AM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:I7HIf.7926$UD1.5808@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsusmq$gc0$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:w6vIf.15823$Ly6.4769@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had
managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically produced
paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Mechanically produced paper requires the use of a Hollander.
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in your
place.
You're welcome to waste your money.
The last time I got caught like that by one of these revisionist right wing
US historians was a book called 'A World Lit Only by Fire'.
I've learned my lesson, I am no longer tempted to purchase bollocks that can
be demolished from a review, a favourable review I might add.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 08:09:06 PM |
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"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsvoe8$p7v$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:I7HIf.7926$UD1.5808@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsusmq$gc0$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:w6vIf.15823$Ly6.4769@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had
managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically produced
paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Mechanically produced paper requires the use of a Hollander.
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in
your
place.
You're welcome to waste your money.
The last time I got caught like that by one of these revisionist right
wing
US historians was a book called 'A World Lit Only by Fire'.
I've learned my lesson, I am no longer tempted to purchase bollocks that
can
be demolished from a review, a favourable review I might add.
Right. Now that you know everything, you can drink tea and say things like
"Oh dear". Take a hike Limey.
BAM
.
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| User: "William Black" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
16 Feb 2006 03:51:51 AM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:f6RIf.17650$Ly6.13274@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsvoe8$p7v$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:I7HIf.7926$UD1.5808@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsusmq$gc0$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:w6vIf.15823$Ly6.4769@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall
of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had
managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically produced
paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Mechanically produced paper requires the use of a Hollander.
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in
your
place.
You're welcome to waste your money.
The last time I got caught like that by one of these revisionist right
wing
US historians was a book called 'A World Lit Only by Fire'.
I've learned my lesson, I am no longer tempted to purchase bollocks that
can
be demolished from a review, a favourable review I might add.
Right. Now that you know everything, you can drink tea and say things like
"Oh dear". Take a hike Limey.
Address the issue.
In a desperate attempt to refute my argument you've resorted to personal
remarks rather than trying to drive the argument further.
This is usually considered to be a statement similar to:
"I've been beaten, I'll insult him and hope he'll go away and because I've
got the last word everyone will think I've won".
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
16 Feb 2006 07:08:04 PM |
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"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dt1hsl$9ic$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:f6RIf.17650$Ly6.13274@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsvoe8$p7v$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:I7HIf.7926$UD1.5808@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsusmq$gc0$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:w6vIf.15823$Ly6.4769@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall
of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting
dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had
managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically
produced
paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Mechanically produced paper requires the use of a Hollander.
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in
your
place.
You're welcome to waste your money.
The last time I got caught like that by one of these revisionist right
wing
US historians was a book called 'A World Lit Only by Fire'.
I've learned my lesson, I am no longer tempted to purchase bollocks
that
can
be demolished from a review, a favourable review I might add.
Right. Now that you know everything, you can drink tea and say things
like
"Oh dear". Take a hike Limey.
Address the issue.
In a desperate attempt to refute my argument you've resorted to personal
remarks rather than trying to drive the argument further.
This is usually considered to be a statement similar to:
"I've been beaten, I'll insult him and hope he'll go away and because
I've
got the last word everyone will think I've won".
Don't get up now Billy.
More tea Vicar?
BAM
.
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| User: "Larry Swain" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
16 Feb 2006 02:33:01 PM |
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William Black wrote:
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:I7HIf.7926$UD1.5808@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dsusmq$gc0$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:w6vIf.15823$Ly6.4769@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dstpq7$7va$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
Professor Stark's arguments are buttressed by his relentless
demolition of the notion that "invention" stopped with the fall of
Rome and didn't start again until the Enlightenment. Really? The
so-called "Dark Ages" created the first economies that didn't
rely on human muscles, by inventing water-mills, perfecting dams,
producing paper mechanically, which no other civilization had
managed.
Oh dear.
Why don't you read the book you phony? He says mechanically produced
paper,
not "cheap paper". Besides that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Mechanically produced paper requires the use of a Hollander.
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in your
place.
You're welcome to waste your money.
The last time I got caught like that by one of these revisionist right wing
US historians was a book called 'A World Lit Only by Fire'.
I've learned my lesson, I am no longer tempted to purchase bollocks that can
be demolished from a review, a favourable review I might add.
William,
Stark is a solid scholar. Although at Baylor, at least when I knew him,
he was a sociologist of some standing, doing all sorts of interesting
things. Perhaps things have changed in his life in the subsequent 20
years, but I'd read the book. I didn't follow all of this thread so
didn't see the "demolished from a review" and wouldn't mind if you
posted a link to it.
ljs
.
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| User: "William Black" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
16 Feb 2006 04:30:37 PM |
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"Larry Swain" <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:xuKdnYuXt6rofGnenZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@rcn.net...
William Black wrote:
The last time I got caught like that by one of these revisionist right
wing
US historians was a book called 'A World Lit Only by Fire'.
I've learned my lesson, I am no longer tempted to purchase bollocks that
can
be demolished from a review, a favourable review I might add.
William,
Stark is a solid scholar. Although at Baylor, at least when I knew him,
he was a sociologist of some standing, doing all sorts of interesting
things.
What he's obviously not is any sort of historian.
Saying that the mechanical production of paper is a great medieval advance
is, I'm afraid, the sort of howler that'll get you an 'F' at 'A' level
(High School Final Year level in the US)
The review was posted at the top of the thread.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
16 Feb 2006 05:56:31 AM |
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:47:58 -0500, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
Before that you're up to your armpits in lye and linen rags.
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in your
place.
Shaddup!
.
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| User: "Bonnie B" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 03:46:45 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:47:58 -0500, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net>
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in your
place.
Your copy of "Cat in the Hat" is lead-lined? How special for you.
"Homosexuality is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who
live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as
shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such
rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful
friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is
particularly apt to produce." -- Plato
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 08:08:03 PM |
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"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:m887v1l3u6pljrjnnufmogdntgn5mkh514@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:47:58 -0500, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net>
Ah well.......now I have to get the dang book to keep you infidels in your
place.
Your copy of "Cat in the Hat" is lead-lined? How special for you.
"Homosexuality is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who
live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as
shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such
rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful
friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is
particularly apt to produce." -- Plato
How does one interpret such queer comments?
BAM
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| User: "celia" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 05:45:17 PM |
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If thats an example of his scholarship he really does
need to read a book.
Reading the list I wonder how he defines the Dark Ages.
Celia
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 09:18:51 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1569843/posts
http://www.archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=350&s=3&a=7342
The Catholic engine of western progress
Money was the engine of western progress.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "mountain man" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 10:25:55 PM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:zKOdnQ_XDOIFAG_enZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@io.com...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1569843/posts
http://www.archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=350&s=3&a=7342
The Catholic engine of western progress
Money was the engine of western progress.
"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's,
and unto God the things that are God's"
When Constantine created christianity in the period
from 312 to 325 and beyond, it was a WIN-WIN
situation for Caesar. The Romans were professional
rulers, and had been for 3 centuries. This was a coup
for Constantine - voluntary taxation via the newly
created religion he and Eusebius called christianity.
That in fact Constantine and
his sponsored literary genius Eusebius of Caesarea
could have, and did, create a new religion ex nilo is
a historical possibility which is sketched here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/
--
Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au
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| User: "mountain man" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 06:52:25 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say, 400-1500
would run something like this:
....[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in the period
312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the empire at the
Nicean council in 325.
--
Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 06:54:37 PM |
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"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say, 400-1500
would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in the period
312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the empire at the
Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
BAM
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| User: "mountain man" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 07:31:05 PM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:YVuIf.15812$Ly6.2672@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say, 400-1500
would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in the
period
312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the empire at the
Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It is an alternate history of christian history that has been drafted
to substitute the ahistory written by Eusebius in his Eccesiastical
History. A short introduction to it is located here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/
Essentially the Constantinian/Eusebian dream sequence of history
was imposed on the entire Roman empire in part from 312, and
in whole after Constantine became supreme in 324. It was first
formalised as an imperial dream sequence at the Council of Nicea.
This alternate history of christianity has far more historical integrity
than the history presented by Eusebius, by quoting his own
interpolations within the patristic literature (eg: Joesphus) as
evidence for anything remotely 'christian' in antiquity.
--
Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 07:50:34 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say, 400-1500
would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in the
period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the empire at
the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of the
Cat'lick church.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011, aw Hellboy #5
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
14 Feb 2006 10:01:33 PM |
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"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976AB55B9A8D5vicman@216.196.97.136...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say, 400-1500
would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in the
period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the empire at
the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of the
Cat'lick church.
You deluded simpletons. You have no concern for the truth; you merely pile
up the bs and that makes you happy. Unbelievable.
BAM
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 09:44:15 AM |
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on 14 Feb 2006 in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976AB55B9A8D5vicman@216.196.97.136...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say,
400-1500 would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in
the period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the
empire at the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of
the Cat'lick church.
You deluded simpletons. You have no concern for the truth; you merely
pile up the bs and that makes you happy. Unbelievable.
BAM
What is truth?
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Official alt.wisdom HELLBOY
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 10:00:22 AM |
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:44:15 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:
on 14 Feb 2006 in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976AB55B9A8D5vicman@216.196.97.136...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say,
400-1500 would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in
the period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the
empire at the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of
the Cat'lick church.
You deluded simpletons. You have no concern for the truth; you merely
pile up the bs and that makes you happy. Unbelievable.
BAM
What is truth?
Most people would equate truth with reality and actual events.
When promoting religion, however, truth is replaced with Truth which
means any lies and fiction which will promote your beliefs.
The catholic church promoting humanity is a fine example of such "Truth",
in direct opposition to the church's actual history of impeding humanity
at every step of the way.
.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 10:09:22 AM |
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"AZ Nomad" <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrndv6k2u.coe.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:44:15 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
on 14 Feb 2006 in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976AB55B9A8D5vicman@216.196.97.136...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say,
400-1500 would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in
the period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the
empire at the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of
the Cat'lick church.
You deluded simpletons. You have no concern for the truth; you merely
pile up the bs and that makes you happy. Unbelievable.
BAM
What is truth?
Most people would equate truth with reality and actual events.
When promoting religion, however, truth is replaced with Truth which
means any lies and fiction which will promote your beliefs.
The catholic church promoting humanity is a fine example of such "Truth",
in direct opposition to the church's actual history of impeding humanity
at every step of the way.
What is humanity?
Scott
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 11:57:57 AM |
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:09:22 GMT, Scott <scott@nospam.net> wrote:
"AZ Nomad" <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrndv6k2u.coe.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:44:15 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
on 14 Feb 2006 in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976AB55B9A8D5vicman@216.196.97.136...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say,
400-1500 would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in
the period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the
empire at the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of
the Cat'lick church.
You deluded simpletons. You have no concern for the truth; you merely
pile up the bs and that makes you happy. Unbelievable.
BAM
What is truth?
Most people would equate truth with reality and actual events.
When promoting religion, however, truth is replaced with Truth which
means any lies and fiction which will promote your beliefs.
The catholic church promoting humanity is a fine example of such "Truth",
in direct opposition to the church's actual history of impeding humanity
at every step of the way.
What is humanity?
You sound like a 4 year old playing the "why" game.
.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 02:10:55 PM |
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"AZ Nomad" <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrndv6qve.m5e.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:09:22 GMT, Scott <scott@nospam.net> wrote:
"AZ Nomad" <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrndv6k2u.coe.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:44:15 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
on 14 Feb 2006 in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976AB55B9A8D5vicman@216.196.97.136...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say,
400-1500 would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in
the period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the
empire at the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of
the Cat'lick church.
You deluded simpletons. You have no concern for the truth; you merely
pile up the bs and that makes you happy. Unbelievable.
BAM
What is truth?
Most people would equate truth with reality and actual events.
When promoting religion, however, truth is replaced with Truth which
means any lies and fiction which will promote your beliefs.
The catholic church promoting humanity is a fine example of such
"Truth",
in direct opposition to the church's actual history of impeding humanity
at every step of the way.
What is humanity?
You sound like a 4 year old playing the "why" game.
Well if that's true is only because I was parroting you.
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
15 Feb 2006 02:32:20 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:10:55 GMT, Scott <scott@nospam.net> wrote:
"AZ Nomad" <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrndv6qve.m5e.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:09:22 GMT, Scott <scott@nospam.net> wrote:
"AZ Nomad" <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrndv6k2u.coe.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:44:15 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
on 14 Feb 2006 in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976AB55B9A8D5vicman@216.196.97.136...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet bam
(mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message
news:dXuIf.8275$yK1.282@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1139959136.423582.95270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Catholic engine of western progress
The standard account of the history of the West from, say,
400-1500 would run something like this:
...[snip]....
You left out the bit where Constantine and Eusebius of Caesarea
created the scriptures, and history, of christianity ex nilo in
the period 312 to 324, and then forced the ensemble upon the
empire at the Nicean council in 325.
What was this? The dream sequence?
It's called real history. Not that faux history that comes out of
the Cat'lick church.
You deluded simpletons. You have no concern for the truth; you merely
pile up the bs and that makes you happy. Unbelievable.
BAM
What is truth?
Most people would equate truth with reality and actual events.
When promoting religion, however, truth is replaced with Truth which
means any lies and fiction which will promote your beliefs.
The catholic church promoting humanity is a fine example of such
"Truth",
in direct opposition to the church's actual history of impeding humanity
at every step of the way.
What is humanity?
You sound like a 4 year old playing the "why" game.
Well if that's true is only because I was parroting you.
Grow up, brat.
<plonk>
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
16 Feb 2006 04:19:13 PM |
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***** the Catholic("Universal") church !!!! Here's why-----When they
gained power under Constantine, They went after Pagans & Heritics(Those
that didn't believe in the OFFICIAL ORTHODOXY LINE with ALOT MORE
VIOLENCE than the "Pagan" Romans ever did !!!! they were RESPONSIBLE
for the "Dumbing Down" of the dark ages!!! And the "Church of Christ"
was the INSTIGATER of the 4th crusade---That SMAMEFUL SACK of
Constantinople in 1204 A.D. ENSLAVING your eastern christian
brothers------------for SHAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| User: "puttster" |
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| Title: Re: Catholic Church: The Engine Of Western Progress |
17 Feb 2006 07:50:52 AM |
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According to Professor Stark, the West became history's most
successful civilization because of the unique theology that undergirded
western culture...
Shouldn't that read "the West became history's most *recent* civilization?"
How does one measure success in a civilization? If it is the latest
electronic gizmos, why bother ranking them?
.
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