| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Dave Lister" |
| Date: |
11 Nov 2004 10:10:25 PM |
| Object: |
Catholics and the holocaust |
Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet when the truth of the
church and their response to the holocaust comes up?
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
18 Nov 2004 11:54:48 AM |
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"thomas p" <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:meiop0thrmc0ikepg7vdi80vqlleovn6t9@4ax.com...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:13:03 -0500, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:lh1np01ng0q256fuotbdk3q0ukn87nvifh@4ax.com...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:22:59 +0100, thomas p
<thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
snip
The Church's passivity would still be an issue.
Passivity hell! They were active players.
You know nothing about the Catholic Church, the Nazis, the Holocaust or
history in general.
That's right. The Catholic Church never did anything to persecute
Jews. They never taught that Jews were guilty of killing Christ. The
Pope, right from the beginning of the Nazi regime, spoke out against
the persecution of the Jews in Germany; as did the hierarchy in
Germany. Of course all of that happened in an alternate universe.
Perhaps you can cite some Catholic references that demonstrate your
allegation that we teach, or taught that the Jews were guilty of killing
Christ? It wouldn't be hard in Lutheran literature, but our Apostle's Creed
states that Jesus "suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and
was buried." If the early Church were so eager to blame the Jews, we
certainly muffed our big chance.
On the other hand, according to the Talmud and other authoratative Jewish
writings, Jesus was a "*****" and "sorcerer" who deserved his death and
is now in hell, "boiling in excrement."
BAM
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
18 Nov 2004 05:11:20 PM |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:54:48 -0500, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
"thomas p" <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:meiop0thrmc0ikepg7vdi80vqlleovn6t9@4ax.com...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:13:03 -0500, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:lh1np01ng0q256fuotbdk3q0ukn87nvifh@4ax.com...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:22:59 +0100, thomas p
<thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
snip
The Church's passivity would still be an issue.
Passivity hell! They were active players.
You know nothing about the Catholic Church, the Nazis, the Holocaust or
history in general.
That's right. The Catholic Church never did anything to persecute
Jews. They never taught that Jews were guilty of killing Christ. The
Pope, right from the beginning of the Nazi regime, spoke out against
the persecution of the Jews in Germany; as did the hierarchy in
Germany. Of course all of that happened in an alternate universe.
Perhaps you can cite some Catholic references that demonstrate your
allegation that we teach, or taught that the Jews were guilty of killing
Christ?
It is a well-known fact. If you had attended Catholic school in the
50's or earlier, you would have heard it. The gospel of Matthew was
always quoted to justify it, i.e. Chapter 27, verse 25: "...His blood
be on us and on our children". Pope John ended it, and he also
apologised to the Jews for the accusation.
It wouldn't be hard in Lutheran literature, but our Apostle's Creed
states that Jesus "suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and
was buried." If the early Church were so eager to blame the Jews, we
certainly muffed our big chance.
Are you really going to maintain that the Church did not actively
persecute Jews for centuries?
On the other hand, according to the Talmud and other authoratative Jewish
writings, Jesus was a "*****" and "sorcerer" who deserved his death and
is now in hell, "boiling in excrement."
And Christians literally boiled quite a few Jews. For centuries
anti-Jewish sermons were expected on Easter Sunday.
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| User: "Robert Swarts" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 09:10:25 AM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
And that means that the RCC, **must** be preserved *no matter the
human price* which is to say that I think what the RCC may or may not
have done with respect to the Holocaust was primarily predicated on
the premise - that the survival of the Church was the >main thing.
Are you forgetting that the Roman Catholic Chruch isn't the Vatican? It is
the 1 billion Roman Catholics throughout the entire world! For that Church
to not be preserved would be to break all of the devouts in that 1 billion.
As long as my faith stands, regardless of what is done to our buildings or
leaders, I will always be of the Roman Catholic Church. The survival of the
Vatican wasn't the central concern! Many of the Church leaders wanted to
move the Holy Father and the office to the United States! The primary
concern was for the safety of the Catholic people and the prevention of
deportation of as many Jews as possible. Just look at the reports from Pius
XII himself! If he didn't do anything Jews were deported... if he did say
something, more were deported and Catholics as well. He was a model of
great diplomacy and he ensured that though this war was going on, the
Vatican took its central position of neutrality. There was little we could
have done outside of diplomacy. The Vatican is the largest nation in the
world (or one of the largest) yet we do not have an army or weapons.
Diplomacy and prayer are our weapons.
-Robert
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 11:45:04 AM |
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"Robert Swarts" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in
news:cn5856$60g$1@news3.bu.edu:
He was a model
of great diplomacy
So was Chamberlain.
and he ensured that though this war was going on,
the Vatican took its central position of neutrality.
This wasn't a war in which neutrality was a virtue. It was a sin.
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "Robert Swarts" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 12:45:30 PM |
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"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
This wasn't a war in which neutrality was a virtue. It was a sin.
----------------------------------------------------
The Vatican cannot and will not force governments to do something. Through
diplomacy, it attempts to convince the government to step down from its
position and have mercy on those who suffer due to that government.
We are neutral because we are vast. We do not fight with weapons nor with
bloodshed. We fight with prayer which is exactly what went on. We were
against the immoral Nazi regime. Pope Pius XI saw to that and the German
council did as well in excommunicating all nazis. Pius XII saw the
situation in which Hitler would turn against the Church and destroy us if he
succeded but Pius did not run away! He stood and through diplomacy
convinced the regime to have mercy on thousands. You forget that 3 million
Catholics were killed out of Poland, and over a hundred thousand others
elsewhere.
Totally: 10 million Roman Catholics died in this war. That, to me, looks as
if something was done. You claim it not to be so Outside of begging for
mercy, Pius couldn't do much and sometimes when he spoke up, things were
made worse... What would you do in a situation where hundreds of thousands
were being killed... and you spoke up and a hundred thousand more were added
to those lines? I would pray for them, I would seek diplomatic solutions,
and I wouldn't overstep my bounds in fear that the people whom I was
entrusted to guide and watch over wouldn't be slaughtered either.
-Robert
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 02:13:35 PM |
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"Robert Swarts" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in
news:cn5koe$bsg$1@news3.bu.edu:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
This wasn't a war in which neutrality was a virtue. It was a sin.
----------------------------------------------------
The Vatican cannot and will not force governments to do something.
Through diplomacy, it attempts to convince the government to step down
from its position and have mercy on those who suffer due to that
government.
It was the governments that needed to do something. It was the millions
of RCC adherents who were supporting said governments in the light of
Vatican approval
You forget that 3 million Catholics were killed out of Poland, and
over a hundred thousand others elsewhere.
Not because they were Catholic, but because they were Poles.
Totally: 10 million Roman Catholics died in this war. That, to me,
looks as if something was done.
Most all died because of their nationality. Few died because they were
Catholic.
I would pray for
them, I would seek diplomatic solutions, and I wouldn't overstep my
bounds in fear that the people whom I was entrusted to guide and watch
over wouldn't be slaughtered either.
No, you would just leave them working for the state doing the evil.
The silence of the Vatican was extraordinary. It came up against one of
the worst evils of the past 2000 years and failed completely to have any
moral backbone at best. At worst, it supported the goals of that evil.
--
Bush is not my President.
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
16 Nov 2004 07:48:07 PM |
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Dave Lister <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns95A07C5EDDED0retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6>...
No, you would just leave them working for the state doing the evil.
The silence of the Vatican was extraordinary. It came up against one of
the worst evils of the past 2000 years and failed completely to have any
moral backbone at best. At worst, it supported the goals of that evil.
So you are saying that Albert Einstein and Golda Meir were lying when
they praised the Vatican for standing up to the Nazis and defending
the innocent? Or are you saying that they were of far too limited
intellect to understand the cunning treachery and duplicity of the
Vatican, and that no one could until one man, a hero, Dave Lister,
could use his brilliance to piece together the puzzle and reveal the
truth sixty years later?
I am just curious, since the testimony of the people who were there,
and you know, might actually know something about what happened
completely contradicts your viewpoint.
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| User: "JCarew" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
19 Nov 2004 12:17:38 AM |
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JMJ
Dave Lister wrote in message
No, you would just leave them working for the state doing the evil.
The silence of the Vatican was extraordinary. It came up against one of
the worst evils of the past 2000 years and failed completely to have any
moral backbone at best. At worst, it supported the goals of that evil.
Here's a repost of a post by BAM on the subject
Subject: Re: The Church and antisemitism
From: (BAM1106016)
Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 10:10 EST
To Abert Reingewirtz' bigoted post:
Catholic apologetics must address the subject of Pope Pius XII and the
Jewish Holocaust. Since 1963, when Rolf Hochhuth's play THE DEPUTY indicted
Pius XII for complicity in the Nazi genocide, it has been a commonplace of
editorial writers that the Vatican was a silent, and therefore guilty,
bystander to the murder of six million Jews.
But an examination of the facts puts to rout all the charges which are made
against the pope by certain parties, none of whom are serious historians.
The following are the main points to consider:
Before he became Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Pacelli drafted the papal
encyclical, MIT BRENNEDNDER SORGE, in which Pius XI denounced
Nazi paganism and racism; the document was smuggled into Germany
in March, 1937 and read from all Catholic pulpits, which infuriated the
Nazis;
It is well documented by Jewish scholars like Joseph Lichten of B'nai
B'rith that Pius used the assets of the Vatican to ransom Jews from the
Nazis and that the Vatican under Pius ran an extensive network of
hide-outs. Even the Pope's summer residence, Castel Gondolfo, was
used to hide fugitive Jews. The Pope, moreover, took personal
repsonsibility for the children of deported Jews.
Largely as a result of the Church's efforts, the Jews in Italy had a far
higher survival rate under Nazi occupation than was the case in other
countries; estimates of the number of Jews saved by the Vatican's efforts
range up to several hundred thousand; this was one reason why the chief
Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism at the end of the war;
In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews, the World Jewish Congress
made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi
Herzog of Jerusalem sent a "special blessing" to the Pope "for his
lifesaving efforts on behalf ofthe Jews during the Nazi occupation of
Italy"; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir
gave him a moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason;
We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pope Pius
XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions he affirmed the high ideals
of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our
people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to
condemn the persecutors and comiserate with their victims. The life of our
time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths
above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great
defender of peace.....What was to be gained by Pius's getting up on a soap
box and lashing out at the Nazis? Both the International Red Cross and the
World Council of Churches came to the same conclusion as the Vatican: relief
efforts for the Jews would be more effective if the agencies remained
relatively quiet; yet, you never hear anybody attacking the Red Cross for
its "silence"about the Holocaust;
In 1942, the Catholic hierarchy of Amsterdam spoke out vigorously against
the Nazi treatment of the Jews; the Nazi response was a redoubling of
round-ups and deportations; by the end of the war, 86 percent of the Jews
in Amsterdam were liquidated. Jewish relief officials were in complete
agreement that a public attack by the Vatican against the Nazis would
a) not have the slightest effect on Hitler
b) would seriously jeopardize the lives of Jews who were being hidden
in convents, monasteries, etc.;
Nevertheless, Pius's Christmas message in 1942 decried the fact that
hundreds of thousands were being persecuted "solely because of their race
or ancestory." The German ambassador to the Vatican complained that Pius
was "clearly speaking onbehalf of the Jews." A NEW YORK TIMES editorial on
Christmasday, 1942 praised Pius as "a lonely voice crying out of the silence
of a continent";
The scurrilous lie that Pius somehow quietly abetted the Final Solution
began with Rolf Hochhuth's 1962 play THE DEPUTY, which is a total
fabrication. One does not need to be a psychologist to understand why a
German playwright might do this; it's called guilt transference;
Finally, apropos of the Vatican's 1933 concordat with the Nazi government,
which Pius XI signed with great misgiving: The Vatican throughout history
has had to sign concordats with goverments of which it disapproves; the
Church has a fundamental duty to serve Catholics wherever they may be and
it must have a MODUS OPERANDI with all governments, even (or especially)
bad ones. The German concordat guaranteed Catholic marriages, protected
Catholic education and allowed the creation of new dioceses; it was not
meant to endorse the Nazi government, which the Church condemned on many
occasions.
That is a simple outline of the case. The Church's record was not perfect,
but how many other institutions did this much?
From "A Question of Judgement: Pius XII and the Jews, 1963 by the late Dr.
Joseph Lichten, then head of the Intercultural Affairs Department of the
Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith:
"An indictment has been brought down on Pope Pius XII, and by extension on
the Catholic Church, of criminal implication in the extermination of some
six million Jews during World War II.....What is the case against Pius XII?
In brief, that as head of one of the most powerful moral forces on earth he
committed an unspeakable sin of omission by not issuing a formal statement
condemning the Nazis' genocidal slaughter of the Jews, and that his silence
was motivated by reasons considered in modern times as base: political
exigency, economic interests and personal ambition.
What is the case for him? That in relation to the insane behavior of the
Nazis, from overlords to self styled cogs like Eichmann, he did everything
humanly possible to save lives and alleviate suffereing among the Jews:
that a formal statement would have provoked the Nazis to brutal retaliation,
and would substantially have thwarted further Catholic action on behalf of
Jews. To the Sacred College of Cardinals Pius XII wrote on June 2, 1943:
"Every word that We addressed to the responsible authorities and every one
of Our public declarations had to be seriously weighed and considered in
the interest of the persecuted themselves in order not to make their
situation unwittingly even more difficult and more unbearable."
To hold any contributory claim against the Catholic Church for the
persecution of the Jews is despicable. Millions of Catholics died in the
camps too.
BAM
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
19 Nov 2004 12:58:11 AM |
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"JCarew" <othmer@prodigy.net> wrote in
news:6egnd.21784$Rf1.4392@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com:
JMJ
Dave Lister wrote in message
No, you would just leave them working for the state doing the evil.
The silence of the Vatican was extraordinary. It came up against one
of the worst evils of the past 2000 years and failed completely to
have any moral backbone at best. At worst, it supported the goals of
that evil.
Here's a repost of a post by BAM on the subject
I saw it. It doesn't change my opinion of the RCC during the war.
--
Bush is not my President.
.
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| User: "•R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
19 Nov 2004 02:49:35 AM |
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In article <Xns95A5E9A82C1Eretsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6>, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
"JCarew" <othmer@prodigy.net> wrote in
news:6egnd.21784$Rf1.4392@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com:
JMJ
Dave Lister wrote in message
No, you would just leave them working for the state doing the evil.
The silence of the Vatican was extraordinary. It came up against one
of the worst evils of the past 2000 years and failed completely to
have any moral backbone at best. At worst, it supported the goals of
that evil.
Here's a repost of a post by BAM on the subject
I saw it. It doesn't change my opinion of the RCC during the war.
• So, if Eugenio Pacelli / alias Pius XII, was anti-Nazi, why did he
provide Auschwitz Kommandant Adolph Eichmann with a Vatican passport after
the war so that he could travel (escape) to Argentina?
(ref: Argentine government press release, February, 1992)
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
19 Nov 2004 07:53:55 PM |
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(?R.L.Measures) wrote in message news:<r_-1911040049350001@192.168.1.101>...
? So, if Eugenio Pacelli / alias Pius XII, was anti-Nazi, why did he
provide Auschwitz Kommandant Adolph Eichmann with a Vatican passport after
the war so that he could travel (escape) to Argentina?
(ref: Argentine government press release, February, 1992)
I'm glad to see we are moving beyond assertions to some actual facts,
even if the facts are half-wrong.
Yes, Eichmann did get to Argentina with a Vatican passport. But it was
Bishop Hudal, Rector of the German national church in Rome, who was
issuing those passports with the help of some Catholic priests
sympathetic to the Nazis.
Hudal did not need Pius XII to issue those passports. If Lister had
started this thread complaining about Hudal, I would be agreeing with
him.
Now, my question, if Pius XII liked Adoph Eichmann so much, why was he
willing to provide 15 kilograms of gold to the Chief Rabbi of Rome in
order to bribe SS guards to stop them from taking 300 Jews as
prisoners?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef2.html
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| User: "•R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
20 Nov 2004 07:47:43 AM |
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In article <3b0a6dae.0411191753.26df9cc1@posting.google.com>,
davecheryll@earthlink.net (David) wrote:
r_@somis.org (?R.L.Measures) wrote in message
news:<r_-1911040049350001@192.168.1.101>...
? So, if Eugenio Pacelli / alias Pius XII, was anti-Nazi, why did he
provide Auschwitz Kommandant Adolph Eichmann with a Vatican passport after
the war so that he could travel (escape) to Argentina?
(ref: Argentine government press release, February, 1992)
I'm glad to see we are moving beyond assertions to some actual facts,
even if the facts are half-wrong.
Yes, Eichmann did get to Argentina with a Vatican passport. But it was
Bishop Hudal, Rector of the German national church in Rome, who was
issuing those passports with the help of some Catholic priests
sympathetic to the Nazis.
** Prominent individuals in aiding fleeing SS men via "The Monastary
Route" were Bishop Hudal, Father Drugonovich -- a Croat living in Rome,
Ivo Omrcamin and the pope. Drugonovich specialized in forged documents and
hiding money -- presumably in the Roman church's Institute for Religious
Works (bank) in Rome. Omrcamin was responsible for the physical operation
of the line. In an interview with Memory Pictures, Inc. in 1986, Omrcamin
explained that Pius XII approved of the operation because he, like the
Nazis, was anticommunist. According to Omrcamin, the last pope to use the
"Monastery Route" was Paul VI.
Hudal did not need Pius XII to issue those passports.
** But Eugenio Pacelli / Pius XII quite probably had knowledge of
Eichmann's passport if he was anti-communist. After all, Eichmann wasn't
small potatos. During his tenure at Auschwitz Eichmann managed to fill a
10-acre hole in the ground 10-feet deep with human bones and ashes. No
other death camp kommandant even came close to this record.
If Lister had
started this thread complaining about Hudal, I would be agreeing with
him.
Now, my question, if Pius XII liked Adoph Eichmann so much, why was he
willing to provide 15 kilograms of gold to the Chief Rabbi of Rome in
order to bribe SS guards to stop them from taking 300 Jews as
prisoners?
** plausible deniability? - - twinge of conscience? - - some of the Jews
were Germans who were miriculously skilled at making one of the Pope's
culinary favorites, namely deutche wurst -- i. e., German sausage?.
- In 1943, Pacelli/Pius XII created the Vatican bank. Near the end of
WW-2, the 50 or so tons of gold that the SS had confiscated from Jewish
families they gassed, was loaded in a railroad car and shipped to Italy,
where it vanished into thin air. My guess is that this gold was deposited
in the Vatican bank (sic) and later funneled to Eichmann and Joe Mengele -
who were living quite well in South America.. In 1956, Mengele felt so
secure that he was listed in the Buenos Aires phone book.
...
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "•R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
19 Nov 2004 02:39:10 AM |
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In article <6egnd.21784$Rf1.4392@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, "JCarew"
<othmer@prodigy.net> wrote:
JMJ
Dave Lister wrote in message
No, you would just leave them working for the state doing the evil.
The silence of the Vatican was extraordinary. It came up against one of
the worst evils of the past 2000 years and failed completely to have any
moral backbone at best. At worst, it supported the goals of that evil.
Here's a repost of a post by BAM on the subject
• The Roman church operated a convent in Aushwitz (Oswiecim) Poland,
within sight - and undoubtedly smell of the crematoria at the SS' death
facory The unanswered question is why did not Eugenio Pacelli / Pius XII
heed Cardinal Tisserant's plea to report to the world what had begun at
Auschwitz in 1941?
Subject: Re: The Church and antisemitism
From: (BAM1106016)
Date: Mon, Dec 1, 1997 10:10 EST
To Abert Reingewirtz' bigoted post:
Catholic apologetics must address the subject of Pope Pius XII and the
Jewish Holocaust. Since 1963, when Rolf Hochhuth's play THE DEPUTY indicted
Pius XII for complicity in the Nazi genocide, it has been a commonplace of
editorial writers that the Vatican was a silent, and therefore guilty,
bystander to the murder of six million Jews.
But an examination of the facts puts to rout all the charges which are made
against the pope by certain parties, none of whom are serious historians.
The following are the main points to consider:
Before he became Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Pacelli drafted the papal
encyclical, MIT BRENNEDNDER SORGE, in which Pius XI denounced
Nazi paganism and racism; the document was smuggled into Germany
in March, 1937 and read from all Catholic pulpits, which infuriated the
Nazis;
It is well documented by Jewish scholars like Joseph Lichten of B'nai
B'rith that Pius used the assets of the Vatican to ransom Jews from the
Nazis and that the Vatican under Pius ran an extensive network of
hide-outs. Even the Pope's summer residence, Castel Gondolfo, was
used to hide fugitive Jews. The Pope, moreover, took personal
repsonsibility for the children of deported Jews.
Largely as a result of the Church's efforts, the Jews in Italy had a far
higher survival rate under Nazi occupation than was the case in other
countries; estimates of the number of Jews saved by the Vatican's efforts
range up to several hundred thousand; this was one reason why the chief
Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism at the end of the war;
In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews, the World Jewish Congress
made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi
Herzog of Jerusalem sent a "special blessing" to the Pope "for his
lifesaving efforts on behalf ofthe Jews during the Nazi occupation of
Italy"; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir
gave him a moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason;
We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pope Pius
XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions he affirmed the high ideals
of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our
people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to
condemn the persecutors and comiserate with their victims. The life of our
time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths
above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great
defender of peace.....What was to be gained by Pius's getting up on a soap
box and lashing out at the Nazis? Both the International Red Cross and the
World Council of Churches came to the same conclusion as the Vatican: relief
efforts for the Jews would be more effective if the agencies remained
relatively quiet; yet, you never hear anybody attacking the Red Cross for
its "silence"about the Holocaust;
In 1942, the Catholic hierarchy of Amsterdam spoke out vigorously against
the Nazi treatment of the Jews; the Nazi response was a redoubling of
round-ups and deportations; by the end of the war, 86 percent of the Jews
in Amsterdam were liquidated. Jewish relief officials were in complete
agreement that a public attack by the Vatican against the Nazis would
a) not have the slightest effect on Hitler
b) would seriously jeopardize the lives of Jews who were being hidden
in convents, monasteries, etc.;
Nevertheless, Pius's Christmas message in 1942 decried the fact that
hundreds of thousands were being persecuted "solely because of their race
or ancestory." The German ambassador to the Vatican complained that Pius
was "clearly speaking onbehalf of the Jews." A NEW YORK TIMES editorial on
Christmasday, 1942 praised Pius as "a lonely voice crying out of the silence
of a continent";
The scurrilous lie that Pius somehow quietly abetted the Final Solution
began with Rolf Hochhuth's 1962 play THE DEPUTY, which is a total
fabrication. One does not need to be a psychologist to understand why a
German playwright might do this; it's called guilt transference;
Finally, apropos of the Vatican's 1933 concordat with the Nazi government,
which Pius XI signed with great misgiving: The Vatican throughout history
has had to sign concordats with goverments of which it disapproves; the
Church has a fundamental duty to serve Catholics wherever they may be and
it must have a MODUS OPERANDI with all governments, even (or especially)
bad ones. The German concordat guaranteed Catholic marriages, protected
Catholic education and allowed the creation of new dioceses; it was not
meant to endorse the Nazi government, which the Church condemned on many
occasions.
That is a simple outline of the case. The Church's record was not perfect,
but how many other institutions did this much?
From "A Question of Judgement: Pius XII and the Jews, 1963 by the late Dr.
Joseph Lichten, then head of the Intercultural Affairs Department of the
Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith:
"An indictment has been brought down on Pope Pius XII, and by extension on
the Catholic Church, of criminal implication in the extermination of some
six million Jews during World War II.....What is the case against Pius XII?
In brief, that as head of one of the most powerful moral forces on earth he
committed an unspeakable sin of omission by not issuing a formal statement
condemning the Nazis' genocidal slaughter of the Jews, and that his silence
was motivated by reasons considered in modern times as base: political
exigency, economic interests and personal ambition.
What is the case for him? That in relation to the insane behavior of the
Nazis, from overlords to self styled cogs like Eichmann, he did everything
humanly possible to save lives and alleviate suffereing among the Jews:
that a formal statement would have provoked the Nazis to brutal retaliation,
and would substantially have thwarted further Catholic action on behalf of
Jews. To the Sacred College of Cardinals Pius XII wrote on June 2, 1943:
"Every word that We addressed to the responsible authorities and every one
of Our public declarations had to be seriously weighed and considered in
the interest of the persecuted themselves in order not to make their
situation unwittingly even more difficult and more unbearable."
To hold any contributory claim against the Catholic Church for the
persecution of the Jews is despicable. Millions of Catholics died in the
camps too.
BAM
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
19 Nov 2004 08:13:51 PM |
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(?R.L.Measures) wrote in message news:<r_-1911040039090001@192.168.1.101>...
? The Roman church operated a convent in Aushwitz (Oswiecim) Poland,
within sight - and undoubtedly smell of the crematoria at the SS' death
facory The unanswered question is why did not Eugenio Pacelli / Pius XII
heed Cardinal Tisserant's plea to report to the world what had begun at
Auschwitz in 1941?
I think you have been misled by John Cornwell here, one of the many
examples of deception in the book Hitler's Pope.
On page 262, Cornwell quotes Cardinal Tisserant out of context to
suggest the Cardinal denounced Pius XII in a private letter to
Cardinal Suhard.
Cardinal Tisserant clearly stated that he was not criticizing Pius XII
whom he admired, but criticizing members of the Curia for not carrying
out the Pope's policies.
Cardinal Tisserant said: "The Pope's attitude was beyond discussion.
My remarks did not involve his person, but certain members of the
Curia. . . . If the consequences of a protest were to fall on himself
alone, Pius XII would not have been in the slightest way concerned.
Everyone knows that he was ready to go to a concentration camp. But he
weighed before all else the mortal risks to which the victims of
Nazism could be exposed in the case of a protest"
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| User: "•R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
20 Nov 2004 08:01:48 AM |
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In article <3b0a6dae.0411191813.31b9f216@posting.google.com>,
davecheryll@earthlink.net (David) wrote:
r_@somis.org (?R.L.Measures) wrote in message
news:<r_-1911040039090001@192.168.1.101>...
? The Roman church operated a convent in Aushwitz (Oswiecim) Poland,
within sight - and undoubtedly smell of the crematoria at the SS' death
facory The unanswered question is why did not Eugenio Pacelli / Pius XII
heed Cardinal Tisserant's plea to report to the world what had begun at
Auschwitz in 1941?
I think you have been misled by John Cornwell here, one of the many
examples of deception in the book Hitler's Pope.
** Haven't read it.
On page 262, Cornwell quotes Cardinal Tisserant out of context to
suggest the Cardinal denounced Pius XII in a private letter to
Cardinal Suhard.
Cardinal Tisserant clearly stated that he was not criticizing Pius XII
whom he admired, but criticizing members of the Curia for not carrying
out the Pope's policies.
** Since the Roman Curia's power is such that it apparently succeeded in
limiting Pope John Paul I's term to 34-days, the Curia could have been
calling the shots during WW-2.
Cardinal Tisserant said: "The Pope's attitude was beyond discussion.
My remarks did not involve his person, but certain members of the
Curia. . . . If the consequences of a protest were to fall on himself
alone, Pius XII would not have been in the slightest way concerned.
Everyone knows that he was ready to go to a concentration camp.
** There is no way in hell that a nice Catholic choir-boy (Adolph Hitler)
would ever dare to jail a pope.
But he
weighed before all else the mortal risks to which the victims of
Nazism could be exposed in the case of a protest"
** Pacelli's silence is well beyond rationalization.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
24 Nov 2004 03:00:07 AM |
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(?R.L.Measures) wrote in message news:<r_-2011040601480001@192.168.1.101>...
In article <3b0a6dae.0411191813.31b9f216@posting.google.com>,
davecheryll@earthlink.net (David) wrote:
(?R.L.Measures) wrote in message
news:<r_-1911040039090001@192.168.1.101>...
? The Roman church operated a convent in Aushwitz (Oswiecim) Poland,
within sight - and undoubtedly smell of the crematoria at the SS' death
facory The unanswered question is why did not Eugenio Pacelli / Pius XII
heed Cardinal Tisserant's plea to report to the world what had begun at
Auschwitz in 1941?
I think you have been misled by John Cornwell here, one of the many
examples of deception in the book Hitler's Pope.
** Haven't read it.
I wasn't sure, hence the "I think", but you either got it from a
source which used Cornwell, or Cornwell's source.
On page 262, Cornwell quotes Cardinal Tisserant out of context to
suggest the Cardinal denounced Pius XII in a private letter to
Cardinal Suhard.
Cardinal Tisserant clearly stated that he was not criticizing Pius XII
whom he admired, but criticizing members of the Curia for not carrying
out the Pope's policies.
** Since the Roman Curia's power is such that it apparently succeeded in
limiting Pope John Paul I's term to 34-days, the Curia could have been
calling the shots during WW-2.
So what are you saying here? You agree with the Cardinal?
Cardinal Tisserant said: "The Pope's attitude was beyond discussion.
My remarks did not involve his person, but certain members of the
Curia. . . . If the consequences of a protest were to fall on himself
alone, Pius XII would not have been in the slightest way concerned.
Everyone knows that he was ready to go to a concentration camp.
** There is no way in hell that a nice Catholic choir-boy (Adolph Hitler)
would ever dare to jail a pope.
If you have documentation that Hitler was a regular attendee at Mass
while running the Nazi party, I will take a look at it.
But he
weighed before all else the mortal risks to which the victims of
Nazism could be exposed in the case of a protest"
** Pacelli's silence is well beyond rationalization.
Again, you are the one who cited Tisserant in the first place. If you
don't agree with his own words, why did you quote him in the first
place?
As for Pacelli's so-called "silence", can you explain how Albert
Einstein could be so mistaken? (23 Dec.1940 Time)
"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany I
looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always
boasted of their devotion to the case of truth; but no, the
universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great
editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had
proclaimed their love of freedom. But they, like the universities,
were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Church stood squarely
across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never
had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great
affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage
and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I
am forced thus to confess, that what I once despised, I now praise
unreservedly"
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| User: "•R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
24 Nov 2004 06:52:41 AM |
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In article <3b0a6dae.0411240100.54495b97@posting.google.com>,
davecheryll@earthlink.net (David) wrote:
r_@somis.org (?R.L.Measures) wrote in message
news:<r_-2011040601480001@192.168.1.101>...
In article <3b0a6dae.0411191813.31b9f216@posting.google.com>,
davecheryll@earthlink.net (David) wrote:
r_@somis.org (?R.L.Measures) wrote in message
news:<r_-1911040039090001@192.168.1.101>...
? The Roman church operated a convent in Aushwitz (Oswiecim) Poland,
within sight - and undoubtedly smell of the crematoria at the SS' death
facory The unanswered question is why did not Eugenio Pacelli / Pius XII
heed Cardinal Tisserant's plea to report to the world what had begun at
Auschwitz in 1941?
I think you have been misled by John Cornwell here, one of the many
examples of deception in the book Hitler's Pope.
** Haven't read it.
I wasn't sure, hence the "I think", but you either got it from a
source which used Cornwell, or Cornwell's source.
On page 262, Cornwell quotes Cardinal Tisserant out of context to
suggest the Cardinal denounced Pius XII in a private letter to
Cardinal Suhard.
Cardinal Tisserant clearly stated that he was not criticizing Pius XII
whom he admired, but criticizing members of the Curia for not carrying
out the Pope's policies.
** Since the Roman Curia's power is such that it apparently succeeded in
limiting Pope John Paul I's term to 34-days, the Curia could have been
calling the shots during WW-2.
So what are you saying here? You agree with the Cardinal?
** Yes, because the reports coming back from the convent at Auschwitz
regarding seeing trains loaded with people arrive at the concentration
camp and depart empty, as well as the odor from the crematoria, were
unmistakeable indications that the camp was a death factory. However,
Pacelli may have signed an agreement with der Fuehrer prior to 1939 that
required him not to critice the NSDAP in exchange for avoiding damage to
RC properties during the upcoming war. (One ex-Jesuit claims to have
seen such a document in the Vatican archives.) OTOH, if Pacelli had
spoken out and revealed what the nuns in Aushwitz were seeing and
smelling, there was probably not much the Allies could have done to stop
it since the only airplane that was capable of making a round-trip to bomb
the railroad tracks leading to Aushwitz with a sizeable bomb load was the
B-29, which was being deployed in the Pacific theatre.
Cardinal Tisserant said: "The Pope's attitude was beyond discussion.
My remarks did not involve his person, but certain members of the
Curia. . . . If the consequences of a protest were to fall on himself
alone, Pius XII would not have been in the slightest way concerned.
Everyone knows that he was ready to go to a concentration camp.
** There is no way in hell that a nice Catholic choir-boy (Adolph Hitler)
would ever dare to jail a pope.
If you have documentation that Hitler was a regular attendee at Mass
while running the Nazi party, I will take a look at it.
** Dave plays one Joker Card.
But he
weighed before all else the mortal risks to which the victims of
Nazism could be exposed in the case of a protest"
** Pacelli's silence is well beyond rationalization.
Again, you are the one who cited Tisserant in the first place. If you
don't agree with his own words, why did you quote him in the first
place?
** There are the only words he spoke?
As for Pacelli's so-called "silence", can you explain how Albert
Einstein could be so mistaken? (23 Dec.1940 Time)
"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany I
looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always
boasted of their devotion to the case of truth; but no, the
universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great
editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had
proclaimed their love of freedom. But they, like the universities,
were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Church stood squarely
across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never
had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great
affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage
and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I
am forced thus to confess, that what I once despised, I now praise
unreservedly"
** Al was not mistaken. The Roman church is only human in that it is run
both by ethical and by not so ethical people. If not for the ethical ones
who warned Martin Luther to go into hiding, Giovanni de Medici's / alias
Pope Leo X's assassination team would have offed Luther for damn sure, and
folks would probably be buying and selling papal indulgences on eBay,
along with Blessed Virgin cheese sandwiches.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
16 Nov 2004 09:33:53 PM |
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(David) wrote in
news:3b0a6dae.0411161748.19e68f03@posting.google.com:
Dave Lister <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns95A07C5EDDED0retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6>...
No, you would just leave them working for the state doing the evil.
The silence of the Vatican was extraordinary. It came up against one
of the worst evils of the past 2000 years and failed completely to
have any moral backbone at best. At worst, it supported the goals of
that evil.
So you are saying that Albert Einstein and Golda Meir were lying when
they praised the Vatican for standing up to the Nazis and defending
the innocent? Or are you saying that they were of far too limited
intellect to understand the cunning treachery and duplicity of the
Vatican, and that no one could until one man, a hero, Dave Lister,
could use his brilliance to piece together the puzzle and reveal the
truth sixty years later?
I'm sure you think that was clever, but the fact is that there is a lot of
material out there on this topic that has nothing to do with Dave Lister.
I am just curious, since the testimony of the people who were there,
and you know, might actually know something about what happened
completely contradicts your viewpoint.
Einstein wasn't there, loon.
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 05:44:24 PM |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:45:30 -0500, "Robert Swarts" <rswarts@bu.edu>
wrote:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
This wasn't a war in which neutrality was a virtue. It was a sin.
----------------------------------------------------
The Vatican cannot and will not force governments to do something. Through
diplomacy, it attempts to convince the government to step down from its
position and have mercy on those who suffer due to that government.
What was that about politicians who voted their conscience rather than
the official Catholic line?
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| User: "Donalbain" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
15 Nov 2004 09:22:15 AM |
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"Robert Swarts" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:<cn5856$60g$1@news3.bu.edu>...
Therion Ware wrote:
And that means that the RCC, **must** be preserved *no matter the
human price* which is to say that I think what the RCC may or may not
have done with respect to the Holocaust was primarily predicated on
the premise - that the survival of the Church was the >main thing.
Are you forgetting that the Roman Catholic Chruch isn't the Vatican? It is
the 1 billion Roman Catholics throughout the entire world! For that Church
to not be preserved would be to break all of the devouts in that 1 billion.
As long as my faith stands, regardless of what is done to our buildings or
leaders, I will always be of the Roman Catholic Church. The survival of the
Vatican wasn't the central concern! Many of the Church leaders wanted to
move the Holy Father and the office to the United States! The primary
concern was for the safety of the Catholic people and the prevention of
deportation of as many Jews as possible. Just look at the reports from Pius
XII himself! If he didn't do anything Jews were deported... if he did say
something, more were deported and Catholics as well. He was a model of
great diplomacy and he ensured that though this war was going on, the
Vatican took its central position of neutrality. There was little we could
have done outside of diplomacy. The Vatican is the largest nation in the
world (or one of the largest) yet we do not have an army or weapons.
Diplomacy and prayer are our weapons.
The Vatican is a tiny little nation in size and population.
Also, do you speak on behalf of the Vatican in an official capacity?
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
12 Nov 2004 01:13:32 AM |
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"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote
Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet
when the truth of the church and their response to
the holocaust comes up?
I hate to say it -- being an early escapee from the
Catholic church -- but it's all a bunch of *****.
The Catholic church was (and remains) psychotically
anti-Communist, due almost entirely to the fact that
Communist Russia was an officially atheistic state.
But, they were no more "pro-Nazi" than any other
Christian church on the European continent, or religious
& secular groups here in the United States.
They were (and remain) wildly supportive of any
right-wing government, providing that said government
demonstrates sufficient reverence for Christianity, and
the Catholic church in particular.
Fascist Spain? Yes. Definitely. Nazi Germany? No.
Nothing the least bit exceptional, nothing to set them
apart from other religious & secular organizations in
the west.
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| User: "Sean C" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
12 Nov 2004 12:52:34 PM |
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In article <TuqdnZE8X6-U_AncRVn-3g@comcast.com>, JTEM
<gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote
Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet
when the truth of the church and their response to
the holocaust comes up?
I hate to say it -- being an early escapee from the
Catholic church -- but it's all a bunch of *****.
The Catholic church was (and remains) psychotically
anti-Communist, due almost entirely to the fact that
Communist Russia was an officially atheistic state.
But, they were no more "pro-Nazi" than any other
Christian church on the European continent, or religious
& secular groups here in the United States.
In fairness, he didn't say the Church was pro-Nazi, but criticized the
Church for its response to the Holocaust. There is little doubt on any
side of the debate that Pius XII failed to speak out aginst the
Holocaust. Whether his sins were those of ommission or commission is
where the debate really centers.
They were (and remain) wildly supportive of any
right-wing government, providing that said government
demonstrates sufficient reverence for Christianity, and
the Catholic church in particular.
Fascist Spain? Yes. Definitely. Nazi Germany? No.
Nothing the least bit exceptional, nothing to set them
apart from other religious & secular organizations in
the west.
It's certainly questionable whether Pius was pro-Nazi, but there is no
doubt he made a lot of accomodations to Hitler that could very well
have eased his rise to power by neutering Catholic opposition in
Germany. His failure to speak out against not only the Jewish
Holocaust, but the mass murder of millions of Catholics throughout
Europe is simply inexcusable. He certainly had no problem speaking out
against the communists, who posed a far greater threat to the Church
than Hitler did. Protecting the Church itself, and not its millions of
followers, seems to have been his primary concern.
Let's remember that to this day, the Church somehow still hasn't gotten
around to excommunicating any of the Nazi or fascist leadership.
Sean C
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| User: "JCarew" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
12 Nov 2004 03:52:19 PM |
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JMJ
"Sean C" wrote
In article, JTEM wrote:
"Dave Lister" wrote
Ever notice how the Catholic culties get real quiet
when the truth of the church and their response to
the holocaust comes up?
I hate to say it -- being an early escapee from the
Catholic church -- but it's all a bunch of *****.
The Catholic church was (and remains) psychotically
anti-Communist, due almost entirely to the fact that
Communist Russia was an officially atheistic state.
But, they were no more "pro-Nazi" than any other
Christian church on the European continent, or religious
& secular groups here in the United States.
In fairness, he didn't say the Church was pro-Nazi, but
criticized the Church for its response to the Holocaust.
There is little doubt on any side of the debate that Pius
XII failed to speak out aginst the Holocaust. Whether
his sins were those of ommission or commission is
where the debate really centers.
snip<
Regarding the relationship between Pius XII and the Jews. As far
as the (accusation of) silence is concerned, we know very well that
any public protest against Nazism would have provoked a disaster.
Not only against the Catholics but, especially, against the Jews.
Here's an exerpt from "The Real Story of Pius XII and the Jews
on the subject
By James Bogle
{Barrister of the Middle Temple, and former Cavalry officer)
From: Catalyst, Vol. 23, No. 10, December 1996}
snip<
Pius XII intended to followed the Dutch Roman Catholic hierarchy's plan of
nameing the Jews explicitly in their condemnation of Nazi deportations, he
intended to issue a similar statement. The Nazis threatened to arrest more
Jews. The Dutch Reformed Church agreed not to protest openly but the Roman
Catholic hierarchy issued, in April 1942, their famous protest against the
deportations. The Nazis then launched an all-out offensive against Jews
(except those who had converted to the Dutch Protestant Reformed Church).
Ironically, it was the Dutch hierarchy's letter of open condemnation which
led to the arrest and execution of Edith Stein, the Jewish Roman Catholic
nun and philosopher and Anne Frank.
(By the end of WWII 86% of Amsterdams Jews had been sent
to German Concentration camps as compared to 28% of Rome's
Jews, jc)
The news of the increased persecution reached Pius XII. His own protest
was due to go into "L'Osservatore Romano" that very evening but he had the
draft burnt saying "If the protest of the Dutch Bishops has cost the lives
of 40,000 people, my intervention would take at least 200,000 people to
their deaths." (See "11 Seitimanale", 1 March 1975, p.40.) (This testimony
for the Beatification Tribunal was placed on the record for the canonization
process of Pope Pius the 12th, by Mother Pasqualina, a nun who served for
many years as Pacelli's housekeeper,jc) Such was the result of openly
naming the Jews; more death from vain gestures. There is no doubt that if
Pius XII had made such a vain gesture, instead of saving more Jewish lives,
he would then have been open to the criticism of having made the situation
of Jews worse by vain and inopportune public statements. Those who now
criticise him for not saying enough would then have attacked him for
saying too much.
snip<
unquote
Jim Carew sfo
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
12 Nov 2004 11:20:30 PM |
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"JCarew" <othmer@prodigy.net> wrote in
news:ngald.21960$5b1.17453@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com:
Regarding the relationship between Pius XII and the Jews. As far
as the (accusation of) silence is concerned, we know very well that
any public protest against Nazism would have provoked a disaster.
Not only against the Catholics but, especially, against the Jews.
How could things have gotten any worse for the Jews? I can't believe the
double-think that allows you to put forward this position. The fact is that
he went along aith the Nazis, and did very little other than some token
saves of a few Jews.
--
Bush is not my President.
.
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| User: "JCarew" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 12:15:14 AM |
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JMJ
"Dave Lister" wrote in message news:
"JCarew" wrote in
Regarding the relationship between Pius XII and the
Jews. As far as the (accusation of) silence is concerned,
we know very well that any public protest against
Nazism would have provoked a disaster. Not only
against the Catholics but, especially, against the Jews.
How could things have gotten any worse for the Jews?
See my comment above and the rest of my post that you
sniped
Also see below
What Our Holy Pope Pius XII was talking about in my
post when it became known on June 29th 1942, that all
Jews in the Netherlands were to be deported, the Catholic
Church and nine Protestant churches sent a formal protest
telegram to "Reichskommissar" Seyss-Inquart, and three
other high officials on July 10th.
In this telegram the 10 churches stated:
- their condemnation of the measures taken against the Jews before June
29th. i.e. the exclusion of the Jews in the Netherlands from their
normal life;
- their horror about the announced deportations "against the deepest
moral and religious obligations" of mankind.
They requested from these authorities:
- revocation of these measures
- (and alas by hindsight) to prevent that the Jews, that are now members
of their churches "would be cut off from their church life".
It also became known to the occupating authorities that this protest
should be read in all church services on Sunday 26th of July 1942.
Under heavy pressure from the Reichskommissar the biggest Protestant church
the Dutch Reformed Church, fearing reprisals to its 600 Jewish members,
issued a watered-down version of the protest telegram to be read during
the services, in which the word protest was replaced by "request and
worry"- and more directed to God than to the authorities. The eight other
protestant and the Catholic church refused to alter their protest.
The revenge of the Reichskommissar was directed only against the
Catholic Church:
On Sunday August 2nd. 245 Catholic Jews were arrested by the
Sicherheitspolizei and the Ordnungspolizei. After the release of 44 Jews
because of "mixed marriages", 201 were sent to the transit camp Westerbork.
From this number 133 were deported to Auschwitz and Sobibor, mostly in
that same month, including Dr. Edith Stein and many nuns and priests in
their religious clothing with a bright yellow star on it. I do not know
if their were any survivors from this last number. Nothing was reported
in the official, censored, press in the Netherlands, but the illegal
press reported it.
My source: Dr.L. de Jong, "Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Tweede
Wereldoorlog", Book VI, page 12 - 20.
AMSTERDAM: Location: capital of the Netherlands:
Jewish Presence: from the 1590s
Jewish Population, 1941: 79,352
Fate of the Jews during WWII: many were
deported to extermination camps.
Post-war: 12,000 Jews in 1970s.
I can't believe the double-think that allows you to put
forward this position. The fact is that he went along
aith the Nazis, and did very little other than some token
saves of a few Jews.
860,000 is more than a few and I quote from
Pinchas E. Lapide, Historian & Israeli consul in
Italy for a number of years on the number of
Jews saved by the Catholic Church during WWII
"The Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives during the war than all the
other churches, religious institutions, and rescue organizations put
together. Its record stands in startling contrast to the achievements
of the International Red Cross and the Western Democracies....The Holy
See, the Nuncios and the entire Catholic Church saved some 860,000 Jews
from certain death."
[The latter figure has been recognized by the state of Israel with the
planting of 860,000 trees in remembrance of the efforts of the Vatican
and the Catholic Church.]
Jim Carew sfo
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
12 Nov 2004 09:55:06 PM |
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"Sean C" <redhawk@/burnspammersalive/hvc.rr.com> wrote
It's certainly questionable whether Pius was pro-Nazi, but
there is no doubt he made a lot of accomodations to Hitler
that could very well have eased his rise to power by
neutering Catholic opposition in Germany.
The point I had made -- and I hate having to defend the Catholic
church -- is that this was not the least bit noteworthy.
It was no more true for the Catholic church than most every other
religious & secular organization in the west.
You know what helped Hitler more than anything that the Pope
could imagine? The Neutrality act, passed by congress and
signed by the President.
Although it's true that Roosevelt wanted to get the U.S. into the
war, the political realities were such that he just couldn't do
it.
Many forces in America took it much further. Prescott Bush --
grandfather of our present day King George -- and Henry Ford
were two American supporters of the NAZIs.
Shell Oil -- the old "Royal Dutch Shell" company" -- had a love
affiar with Hitler. Texaco did as well, but not to the extant that
Shell did. The Chairman of Shell constituted a one-man Hitler
fan club.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
12 Nov 2004 11:22:31 PM |
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"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in news:U5GdnfEgyMCaGQjcRVn-
sw@comcast.com:
It was no more true for the Catholic church than most every other
religious & secular organization in the west.
Of course it is noteworthy. It was in those countries which were most
Catholic that the Jews were also treated badly - Poland come to mind.
You know what helped Hitler more than anything that the Pope
could imagine? The Neutrality act, passed by congress and
signed by the President.
Nobody has said the Pope helped Hitler. He simply went along and didn't do
his job.
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 12:27:54 PM |
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"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote
Of course it is noteworthy.
Yeah, as if sitting back & doing nothing can compare to
helping to build the war machine... right... sure.
Get some perspective.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
13 Nov 2004 02:06:18 PM |
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"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in news:xMidnXXaToILzQvcRVn-
tg@comcast.com:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote
Of course it is noteworthy.
Yeah, as if sitting back & doing nothing can compare to
helping to build the war machine... right... sure.
The Catholics in large part WERE building the war machine.
Get some perspective.
Ge some honesty.
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics and the holocaust |
14 Nov 2004 12:15:38 AM |
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"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote
The Catholics in large part WERE building the war machine.
To save bandwidth -- for the benefit of everybody who doesn't
have their own private T3 line -- why don't you compile a
list of the groups that did not help Hitler?
Singling out the Catholic church -- though their true crime was
inaction, not support -- is just plain retarded.
Demanding some imaginary "Justice" from people long dead is
even more retarded, granted, but it takes nothing away from
your previously error.
And, oh; you're welcome.
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