"Lee Oswald Ving" <leeoving@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95A6DF6F5A31leeovingyahoocom@63.223.5.246...

"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in
news:5x4nd.26412$jE2.26216@bignews4.bellsouth.net:

"Lee Oswald Ving" <leeoving@yahoo.com> wrote

Show us how much you know, then. Particularly about the Catholic
clergy in Yugoslavia, what positions of power they held during
WWII, their actions while there, and what happened to them after
the war.

Why narrow it to a snapshot in history?

Why so defensive?

Is it because you are ignorant of the subject and hate being caught
lying, or is it because you are not, and must now attempt a desperate
Red Herring because you've been caught?

That's not a "defensive" comment. You're on the wrong track.

We were speaking of the Catholic Church in WWII, the actions of it's
clergy, and post-WWII.

Of which you know nothing.

JMJ
"thomas p" wrote in message news:

"JCarew" wrote:

"thomas p" wrote in message news

"bam" wrote:

snip

The Church's passivity would still be an issue.

Passivity hell! They were active players.

You know nothing about the Catholic Church, the Nazis,
the Holocaust or history in general.

That's right. The Catholic Church never did anything to persecute
Jews. They never taught that Jews were guilty of killing Christ. The
Pope, right from the beginning of the Nazi regime, spoke out against
the persecution of the Jews in Germany; as did the hierarchy in
Germany. Of course all of that happened in an alternate universe.

see below:

Excerpt from Catholic Answer's "This Rock", February 1997,
pp. 12-17,

How Pius XII Protected the Jews, by James Akin:

Before he was elected Pope, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli [the future
Pope Pius XII] was the Vatican Secretary of State. On 28 April
1935, Cardinal Pacelli gave a speech to an audience of 250,000
pilgrims at Lourdes, France stating that the Nazis are in reality
only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new
tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the
banners of social revolution, whether they are guided by a
false concept of the world and of life, or whether they are
possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult.

It was speeches like this, in addition to private remarks and numerous
notes of protest that Pacelli sent to Berlin in his capacity as Vatican
Secretary of State that earned him a reputation as an enemy of the Nazi
party. The Germans were likewise displeased with the reigning pontiff,
Pius XI, who showed himself to be an unrelenting opponent of the new
German "ideals", even writing an entire encyclical "Mit Brennender
Sorge" (1937) to condemn them. When Pius XI died in 1939, the
Nazis abhorred the prospect that Pacelli might be elected successor.
This encyclical is the only one up to then, that had not been titled
in Latin, precisely to get the Germans' attention.

Dr Joseph Lichten, a Polish Jew who served as a diplomat and
later an official of B'nai B'rith, writes:

Pacelli had obviously established his position clearly, for the Fascist
governments of both Italy and Germany spoke vigorously against the
possibility of his election to succeed Pius XI in 1939, though the
Cardinal had served as papal nuncio to Germany from 1917 to
1929. The day after his election, the "Berlin Morgenpost" said
'The election of Cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in
Germany because he has always opposed Nazism and practically
determined the policies of the Vatican under his predecessor.

Former Israeli diplomat and now Orthodox Jewish Rabbi
Pinchas Lapide states that Pius XI had:

. . . good reason to make Pacelli the architect of his anti-Nazi policy.
Off the forty-four speeches which the nuncio Pacelli had made
on German soil between 1917 and 1929, at least forty contained
attacks on called it 'neo-Paganism'.

A few weeks after Pacelli was elected Pope, the German Reich's Chief
Security Service issued a then-secret report on the Pope. Rabbi Lapide
provides an excerpt:

Pacelli has already made himself prominent by his attacks on National
Socialism during his tenure as Cardinal Secretary of State, a fact which
earned him the hearty approval of the Democratic States during the Papal
elections... How much Pacelli is celebrated as an ally of the Democracies
is especially emphasized in the French press.

War came to Europe on 1 Sep 1939, when German troops invaded
Poland, and Britain and France declared war on Germany. Early in
1940, Hitler made an attempt to prevent the new Pope from
maintaining the anti-Nazi stance he had taken before his election.
Hitler sent his underling, Joachim von Ribbentrop to try to dissuade
Pius XII from following his predecessor's policies. Von Ribbentrop,
granted a formal papal audience, went into a lengthy harangue on the
invincibility of the Third Reich, the inevitability of a Nazi victory,
and the futility of papal alignment with the enemies
of the Fuhrer. Pius XII heard von Ribbentrop out politely and
impassively. Then he opened an enormous ledger on his desk, and
in perfect German, began to recite a catalogue of the persecutions
inflicted by the Third Reich in Poland, listing the date, place and
precise details of every crime. The audience was terminated; the
Pope's position was clearly unshakable.

unquote

Please provide documentation that he condemned the Nuremberg Laws, or
that he rejected the teaching that the Jews were a cursed people. It
would be very strange if he had rejected that teaching, since I
attended Catholic schools during his time as Pope; and it was taught
to me and to others all over the world.

I read an encyclical that he wrote for Pius XI. In it he complained
that the Nazis were not living up to their agreement to allow the
Church to run its own schools and other similar problems the Vatican
was having with the Nazi government, but there was no mention of the
Jews. The German hierarchy condemned from the pulpit the Nazis
euthanasia program and got it stopped, but there was no mention of the
Jews. Individual German priests, at the cost of their lives, did
protest the persecution of Jews, but they were never backed up by
their superiors.

See below

Expert from "The Real Story of Pius XII and the Jews"

By James Bogle

{Barrister of the Middle Temple, and former Cavalry officer)

From: Catalyst, Vol. 23, No. 10, December 1996}

snip<

Rev Fr Jean Charles-Roux, now a Rosininian priest living in London and
whose father was French Ambassador to the Holy See in the 30s, lived with
his family in Rome during the fateful pre-war period. He recalls that the
Pope told his father as early as 1935 that the new regime in Germany was
'diabolical'. The Ambassador frequently warned his government but the
general reaction in France seems to have been that it was good to see the
back of the Prussian militarist and that it was no bad thing that an
Austrian-Czech house painter was now Chancellor.

The reaction in the USA and Britain was scarcely different at that
time; and even later when they must have begun to know about the camps.
The US government accepted a total of 10-15,000 Jewish refugees throughout
the whole war -a truly scandalous statistic. Britain was little better
and before the war the government had been full of 'appeasers', the Duke
of Windsor visited Hitler and Lloyd George even went so far as to call
him 'the greatest living German'! Ambassador Charles-Roux's own government
in Paris (and the British government) were deaf to the pleas of the Vatican
to assist the German internal resistance to the Nazi government.

From the very beginning Pius XII tried to persuade the Allied governments
to support the German opposition to Hitler, but since they would not listen
to men like the Anglican Bishop Bell of Chichester or to the few Jews who
had escaped from Germany to Britain and America, they would not and did
not listen to a Pope. Men like Adam von Trott zu Sulz (he had been a Rhodes
Scholar at Balliol), Peter Yorek von Wartenburg and many other leading
Germans who later formed the Kreisau circle, made continuous, repeated,
energetic and ultimately futile attempts to reach and persuade the British
government to back, or even talk with, the German resistance to Hitler.

They were all killed in the 20th July plot to assassinate Hitler,
the last in a long line of foiled attempts to get rid of the dictator,
which was triggered by the Roman Catholic officer, Count Claus Schenk von
Stauffenberg. Stauffenberg was shot out of hand. Other conspirators were
not so lucky. They were tried by the infamous 'People's Court' and hanged
by piano wire from butchers' hooks at Ploetzensce prison. This was filmed
on Hitler's orders so that he could watch it himself later

Pius XII was a highly active, energetic and zealous opponent of
totalitarianism and oppression. Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical letter
"Mit Brennender Sorge" in 1937 because he was then the ruling Pope; but it
was Cardinal Pacelli, later Pius XII, who wrote it. The German Roman
Catholic hierarchy thanked Pope Pius XI for the letter, which condemned
racism and anti-semitism roundly, and the Pope pointed to Cardinal Pacelli
saying it was he had been responsible for it. Pius XII's first encyclical
in 1939, "Summi Pontificatus", repeated the theme and the Gestapo were
immediately given orders by the Nazi leadership to prevent its
distribution.

Thereafter, Pius XII adopted his policy of not naming the Jews explicitly.
This was partly because of his experience of the diplomatic "deafness"
of the Allied governments and partly because of his knowledge and experience
of the increased persecution of Jews which followed the condemnatory
statements made in the two mentioned encyclicals. He devoted himself
instead to the covert rescue operation which resulted in the saving
of approx 800,000 Jewish lives during WW II.