| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Martin Willett" |
| Date: |
07 Apr 2005 05:15:19 AM |
| Object: |
Catholics kill babies |
What is the problem with the Catholic church saying:
1 ] Sex in marriage is wonderful
2 ] Sex outside marriage is always a sin
3 ] The church requires married couples not to use "artificial" birth
control devices.
4 ] Condoms prevent the spread of AIDS
There is no inconsistency at all in those views. Condoms could be used
by married couples who have AIDS. Condoms could be used by "sinners".
In what possible way is wearing a condom more of a sin than prostitution?
The church knows people are sinners and will sin, do sin. So what is so
wrong in allowing those sinners to sin in (comparative) safety and
without putting other people's lives at risk?
Having condoms available makes "the sin of artificial birth control"
more possible, but having kitchen knives makes murder more possible, it
is a rather flabby bit of reasoning. Driving while drunk is a crime and
a sin but the church does not forbid either alcohol or cars. Surely
condoms could be available to those who cannot avoid the sins of
promiscuity without it forcing good Catholics into "the sin of
artificial birth control".
There is no moral excuse for the Catholic Church's open hostility to
condom use by people who are already flouting the Church's teachings.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
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| User: "Alan Ferris" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
08 Apr 2005 03:16:09 AM |
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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:53:41 -0400, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
No, condoms are a means at preventing it temporarily. As I mentioned,
condoms cannot be a solution because condoms REDUCE the risk. Condoms
encourage people to take the risk. The only solution is INTERNATIONAL
education and acceptance of the preservation of sexual intercourse as a rite
between a husband and a wife.
Do you believe people are perfect? Tell me why you think that
everybody will suddenly just do this? For your information they do
teach that as part of the programs in Africa and many other nations.
But they accept that people are human and will fail to be perfect,
that is where the condom comes in.
And as for your claim that it will eventually fail, there are couples
who have had sex regularly right up to the death of the partner with
AID's and the other partner never became infected.
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
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| User: "Natalie Clifford Barney" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 09:00:02 PM |
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RS wrote:
"Alison" <cooties@mac[spam].com> wrote in message
news:20050407214911149+0100@news.supernews.com...
In <d34630$15t$1@news3.bu.edu> RS wrote:
"James" <shiv_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:115ark065aiumae@corp.supernews.com...
Abstinence was a joke when they started teaching it to non-Catholics,
and
it's a joke now.
It is hardly a joke. In a world where STD's and unwanted pregnancies are
rampant, abstinence is the only way to assure you are safe.
And condoms are a valid alternative & one which you seem very keen to
ignore.
No, condoms are a means at preventing it temporarily. As I mentioned,
condoms cannot be a solution because condoms REDUCE the risk. Condoms
encourage people to take the risk. The only solution is INTERNATIONAL
education and acceptance of the preservation of sexual intercourse as a rite
between a husband and a wife.
Deal with reality, that isnt going to happen and it never was the
case....
It is hardly a
joke. If you refrain from sexual contact outside of marriage and if you
and
your spouse are loyal to eachother, you will never contract an STD
(unless
you contract it via blood-to-blood in a hospital or while treating
someone
who is bleeding who is infected).
Or are born with it.
You are simply being problamatic. There is the realization that children
are born with this disease and are punished because of the sins of their
parents (or parent).
Kids punished? By your loving conception of God?
Nice Guy.
It is hardly a joke. It is a solution.
You can't see it as a solution because you are too concerned about
letting
people have their orgasms. Is it really worth the risk? That one moment
of
pleasure? That one sin of adultery?
All those women in Africa - just how many of *them* are committing the
'sin of
adultery'??
Again, you keep ignoring part of what I am saying. IF MEN play their role
as protector and defender, if men are loyal to their wives (and wives to
their husbands), this disease will cease. It spreads via sexual contact for
the most part. It spreads through promiscuous sexual contact for the most
part and then is brought home to the family unit. Make people understand
that the only way to preserve life (their own and that of their loved ones)
is not to engage in this risk.
Again, deal with the reality. The Catholic Church, rapidly growing in
Africa, cannot get the men or even their priests to behave....
Hardly. It never will be and you will
find that out when final judgment comes your way.
Ooh. Big threat.
Hardly a threat, but a concern. God is offering a solution. The world has
rejected it because the world favors sex over God. The world will die. God
has told us that already.
You are quite out of touch with reality, Sir.
--
"Her wit inspired laughter, but it could just as easily cut. It was
heaven to be the focus of those startling blue eyes and that energetic
mind, but hell when the attention turned elsewhere."
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 09:29:04 PM |
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RS wrote:
"Alison" <cooties@mac[spam].com> wrote in message
news:20050407214911149+0100@news.supernews.com...
In <d34630$15t$1@news3.bu.edu> RS wrote:
"James" <shiv_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:115ark065aiumae@corp.supernews.com...
Abstinence was a joke when they started teaching it to non-Catholics,
and
it's a joke now.
It is hardly a joke. In a world where STD's and unwanted pregnancies are
rampant, abstinence is the only way to assure you are safe.
And condoms are a valid alternative & one which you seem very keen to
ignore.
No, condoms are a means at preventing it temporarily. As I mentioned,
condoms cannot be a solution because condoms REDUCE the risk. Condoms
encourage people to take the risk. The only solution is INTERNATIONAL
education and acceptance of the preservation of sexual intercourse as a rite
between a husband and a wife.
Or husband and husband, wife and wife.
It is hardly a
joke. If you refrain from sexual contact outside of marriage and if you
and
your spouse are loyal to eachother, you will never contract an STD
(unless
you contract it via blood-to-blood in a hospital or while treating
someone
who is bleeding who is infected).
Or are born with it.
You are simply being problamatic. There is the realization that children
are born with this disease and are punished because of the sins of their
parents (or parent).
Such as the sin of getting hurt and getting the disease via
blood-transfusions, right?
It is hardly a joke. It is a solution.
You can't see it as a solution because you are too concerned about
letting
people have their orgasms. Is it really worth the risk? That one moment
of
pleasure? That one sin of adultery?
All those women in Africa - just how many of *them* are committing the
'sin of
adultery'??
Again, you keep ignoring part of what I am saying. IF MEN play their role
as protector and defender, if men are loyal to their wives (and wives to
their husbands), this disease will cease. It spreads via sexual contact for
the most part. It spreads through promiscuous sexual contact for the most
part and then is brought home to the family unit. Make people understand
that the only way to preserve life (their own and that of their loved ones)
is not to engage in this risk.
Yes, by teaching children abstinence PLUS contraception. Can't be too safe.
Hardly. It never will be and you will
find that out when final judgment comes your way.
Ooh. Big threat.
Hardly a threat, but a concern. God is offering a solution. The world has
rejected it because the world favors sex over God. The world will die. God
has told us that already.
Got proof of that?
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
09 Apr 2005 01:04:28 PM |
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RS wrote:
It is hardly a joke. In a world where STD's and unwanted pregnancies are
rampant, abstinence is the only way to assure you are safe.
And drinking a quart of Drano is the only way to assure you of not
getting a stuffy nose, dumbass.
It is hardly a
joke. If you refrain from sexual contact outside of marriage and if you and
your spouse are loyal to eachother, you will never contract an STD (unless
you contract it via blood-to-blood in a hospital or while treating someone
who is bleeding who is infected).
If you use a fricking condom, the contraction rates are pretty much the
same.
It is hardly a joke. It is a solution.
For about three people outside Catholicisim. No one follows it because
no one finds it REASONABLE.
You can't see it as a solution because you are too concerned about letting
people have their orgasms.
LETTING people have their orgasms? As if it's any of my *****
business where they hit an O?
Is it really worth the risk? That one moment of
pleasure? That one sin of adultery? Hardly.
The pleasure of others is no concern of yours. If you're happy with a
life of abstinence followed by six or seven rounds of procreative
thumping, that's wonderful. When you push the concept on others,
though, it's not only immoral, but completely idiotic. Abstinence will
not happen for the vast majority of people.
It never will be and you will
find that out when final judgment comes your way.
The only thing sillier than abstinence as birth control is that some BIG
DAY will come where you'll be justified for spouting all your *****.
I won't hold my breath.
--
James B, former monkey #4,567,000,000
aa #944
"Hence the greatest crimes have been found, in many instances,
compatible with a superstitious piety and devotion: Hence, it
is justly regarded as unsafe to draw any certain inference in
favour of a man's morals from the fervour or strictness of his
religious exercises, even though he himself believe them sincere."
-David Hume, "The Natural History of Religion"
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| User: "Rodney Kelp" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 09:29:30 PM |
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"James" <shiv_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:115ark065aiumae@corp.supernews.com...
JimR wrote:
"Martin Willett" <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:3bkvlbF6idamvU1@individual.net...
It doesn't matter how many times you have anal sex you will not get AIDS
if your partner does not carry the virus. AIDS is caused by a virus, not
by "sin".
Mankind has sensed intuitively, down through the ages, that he could
avoid
infection and death from venereal diseases by avoiding sexual promiscuity
and by limiting sexual expression to a monogamous marriage.
VD has always existed because promiscuity has always existed. History has
proven that it is human nature, and must be dealt with as such.
We can argue
the details all day long, but the fact is that it has always worked.
Good
families have always instilled in their children the need to keep their
sexual urges under control, if for no other reason than for mere
survival.
It's mostly a Catholic thing, actually.
<irrelevant syphillis info snipped>
I do remember hearing about certain strains of V.D. that were resistant
to
antibiotics, as far back as the Vietnam War era. The simple fact is that
mankind still cannot control the spread of venereal diseases completely.
There is an element of risk with each sexual encounter. The ONLY known
method of staying free of infection is to restrict one's sexual activity
to
only one person
Abstinence was a joke when they started teaching it to non-Catholics, and
it's a joke now.
(and to hope that that person is not cheating.
Unfortunately, there are no guarantees).
Now, I realize that many people scoff at the notion of marital fidelity,
or
of abstinence from sex until marriage.
Just about everyone, you mean.
It has been associated with old ways
of thinking, a less-enlightened mindset, etc. Popular culture tends to
characterize people that rein in their sexual urges as simpletons. One
look
at the postings on alt.recovery.catholisicm will demonstrate that.
Promiscuous people tend to view themselves as sophisticated.
Irrelevant.
But I wonder how many people that have been given a positive AIDS
diagnosis
have concluded that they werefoolish to buy into that propaganda?
What propaganda?
Just what
must they think as they lay in hospital beds or hospices, with tubes
connected? Was it worth it?
Screwing strangers does not equal death, as much as the concept might
reassure those that can't.
The obedient Christian--that simpleton who obeys the prohibition against
adultery and fornication--lives, while the libertine receives a death
sentence. How ironic!
That's not even close to the definition of ironic.
--
James B, former monkey #4,567,000,000
aa #944
"Hence the greatest crimes have been found, in many instances,
compatible with a superstitious piety and devotion: Hence, it
is justly regarded as unsafe to draw any certain inference in
favour of a man's morals from the fervour or strictness of his
religious exercises, even though he himself believe them sincere."
-David Hume, "The Natural History of Religion"
Well, Adam and Eve didn't have AIDS or VD and if you can only get it from a
carrier then GOD must have given it to us because he loves us.
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| User: "phy" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 08:11:39 AM |
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Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:3bkhraF6gurpmU1@individual.net:
Anal sex does not cause AIDS, that idea is as scientific as the idea
that anal sex is where lawyers come from.
It may be as scientific but it is less true.
-phy
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 06:47:50 PM |
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In article <1112870871.414353.227370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> writes:
Sex is a beautiful thing, designed for male/female unions to keep life
going.
True. Just as it serves the same function for dogs, chimps,
marmots, corn snakes, and mosquitos -- it keeps life going.
Only we don't drape it about with mystical gauze except in the
case of our own species. Sounds a bit suspect to me.
It is not to be taken lightly. (not just for fun)
Because of it's creative power, in procreating new life, it is very,
very precious and should not be abused, degraded or made "dirty"
"Keep the marriage bed undefiled"
Food sustains and creates life. A well prepared and well presented
meal is an art. Giving food can be an act of love.
None of which means that having a chili dog with everything on it,
while buying another one for that new friend you just met, somehow
takes food lightly, degrades and renders dirty the act of eating,
or abuses the essence of nourishment.
Nor does having sex for fun somehow tarnish the many other reasons
one may have sex for.
Anal sex is dirty and dangerous. A major cause of HIV/AIDS.
if people are allowed to freely indulge in the "flesh" in however ways,
and with whoever, it is disastrous! Ruins families, produces diseases
and unwanted babies = abortions, etc.
If done stupidly by ignorant people, it can indeed do all those things.
But it doesn't have to, if indulged in by educated, intelligent,
honest and prudent folks.
I personally am going to give up neither food, driving, or sex,
just because some other people mis-use these things disasterously.
God designed sex for marriage. (between male and female)
No one who stays with their partner contracts AIDS. Only those who
"sleep around" or have sex in an unhealthy way.
How about anal sex between a male and a female who stay faithful
to one another? This fulfills your critera, but somehow I suspect
you still won't approve. Oral sex, then?
Look what has happened since the Sexual Revolution and Free Love!
Yep. Many of us have been happy in ways we could never have
been prior -- and have remained free of disease and unplanned
pregnancies to boot.
Children are being born into unstable families, or one-parent
situations and growing up with problems. More kids need medication
these days than ever in the history of mankind! More kids are taking
drugs, experimenting with sex, and getting into crime, than ever
before.
The worst thing is that people are having sex anywhere they like and it
is getting out of control. AIDS is killing millions and it's all
because people have strayed from the usual/normal male/female secure
marriage situation.
Keep sex sacred, respectable and holy, I say!!
(or don't have sex!!!)
Its as simple as that!!
in peace and truth,
Brenda
(One of 10 Catholic children, mother of two, and celibate for past 9
years)
I have twice in my life been celibate for periods rather longer than
your nine years. And doing so was not difficult.
But that doesn't mean I would recommend it in some blanket manner
for others.
-- cary
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 11:05:52 AM |
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on 07 Apr 2005 in alt.atheism, dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
Sex is a beautiful thing, designed for male/female unions to keep life
going.
It is not to be taken lightly. (not just for fun)
Why not?
Because of it's creative power, in procreating new life, it is very,
very precious and should not be abused, degraded or made "dirty"
"Keep the marriage bed undefiled"
Sex makes two (or more) people feel good. If proper precautions are taken,
what's the fuckin' problem?
Anal sex is dirty and dangerous. A major cause of HIV/AIDS.
if people are allowed to freely indulge in the "flesh" in however ways,
and with whoever, it is disastrous! Ruins families, produces diseases
and unwanted babies = abortions, etc.
Oh, I see. You're a homophobe.
God designed sex for marriage. (between male and female)
No one who stays with their partner contracts AIDS. Only those who
"sleep around" or have sex in an unhealthy way.
Look what has happened since the Sexual Revolution and Free Love!
Children are being born into unstable families, or one-parent
situations and growing up with problems.
How many children are born into unstable families because their (Catholic)
church said it was a sin to use a condom? The Catholics are the ones who
are single-handedly responsible for overpopulation, traffic problems, and
depletion of natural resources.
More kids need medication
these days than ever in the history of mankind! More kids are taking
drugs, experimenting with sex, and getting into crime, than ever
before.
And why is this? If more people would follow the bible and go to a
Catholic Minister instead of a doctor, we wouldn't have all these problems,
which can be directly linked to overcrowding. Faith healing keeps the
death rate high, and weeds out religious nutcakes in the process.
The worst thing is that people are having sex anywhere they like and it
is getting out of control. AIDS is killing millions and it's all
because people have strayed from the usual/normal male/female secure
marriage situation.
Once again, a simple little piece of polyurethane solves that problem. The
fact that the idiot Catholic church says it's a sin is what is mostly
responsible for the spread of AIDS.
Keep sex sacred, respectable and holy, I say!!
Personally, I don't give a ***** what you or your stupid church say.
<ker-snip>
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 10:55:34 AM |
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on 07 Apr 2005 in alt.atheism, Martin Willett dropped trou, farted,
whirled, then shouted:
There is no moral excuse for the Catholic Church's open hostility to
condom use by people who are already flouting the Church's teachings.
You're asking religion to make sense?
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics kill babies |
07 Apr 2005 11:30:57 AM |
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Vic Sagerquist wrote:
There is no moral excuse for the Catholic Church's open hostility to
condom use by people who are already flouting the Church's teachings.
You're asking religion to make sense?
No, I'm just trying to get a few of them to realize how hard they have
to try to make all that stuff make sense.
Picking holes in it is easy, and fun. Defending it must be hard work.
I'll bet they get a little twinge of sanctimonious pleasure from trying
though so no harm done, eh?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
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