| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"MarkA" |
| Date: |
19 Oct 2004 07:09:55 AM |
| Object: |
Catholics who doubt the Pope |
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "cqmman" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 08:03:54 AM |
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"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net...
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
Yes, he is only infalliable when convienient. There is a latin term for it
which escapes me at the moment, but it basically means "from the chair".
Cheers
--
His WMD programme is active, detailed and growing. The policy of containment
is not working. The WMD programme is not shut down. It is up and running.
Saddam has continued to produce them, that he has existing and active
military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, which could
be activated within 45 minutes
- Tony Blair on Saddam 24/9/02
It seems increasingly clear that at the time of invasion, Saddam did not
have stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons ready to deploy."
- Tony Blair 28/9/04
"For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the
great and enduring alliances of modern times."
George W Bush -Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 18, 2002
(Obviously forgot WW2)
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 01:24:22 PM |
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On Tue 19 Oct 2004 08:03:54a, "cqmman" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> kicked back
with a beer, ruminated at length, fell asleep, woke up, lit up a joint,
then fell asleep again after thoughtfully blurting out:
"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net...
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the
Pope?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
Yes, he is only infalliable when convienient. There is a latin term
for it which escapes me at the moment, but it basically means "from
the chair".
"Ex catholica".
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 11:20:08 AM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:03:54 +0100, "cqmman" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net...
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
Yes, he is only infalliable when convienient. There is a latin term for it
which escapes me at the moment,
"ex cathedra"
but it basically means "from the chair".
It is further defined: ill papa speaks infallibly when he speaks ex cathedra
(officially, as opposed to when ordering pizza) on matters of faith and morals.
In practice, this turns out to mean "when he|the local bishop says so".
Cheers
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 01:25:07 PM |
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On Tue 19 Oct 2004 11:20:08a, Apostate <Apostate.invalid@yeehaw.org>
kicked back with a beer, ruminated at length, fell asleep, woke up, lit
up a joint, then fell asleep again after thoughtfully blurting out:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:03:54 +0100, "cqmman" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net...
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the
Pope?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
Yes, he is only infalliable when convienient. There is a latin term
for it which escapes me at the moment,
"ex cathedra"
Yeah, that. I mistyped. *blush*
but it basically means "from the chair".
It is further defined: ill papa speaks infallibly when he speaks
ex cathedra (officially, as opposed to when ordering pizza) on
matters of faith and morals. In practice, this turns out to mean
"when he|the local bishop says so".
Cheers
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
20 Oct 2004 01:31:02 AM |
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In article <pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net>,
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible.
It should be noted that the doctrine of Papal infallibility was declared
by Pius IX only in 1870. I don't know if that meant that all the podpes
before him could be fallible, but the basis for it is not to be found
anywhere in the scriptures.
To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
Coming from a Catholic background, I can tell you that there are many
who disagree with the pope on many issues, particularly family planning.
BTW, masses may still be said in Latin according to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_(Ecclesiastical)
The problem is that few churches bother. Your friend should check out
several churches in his/her city. Maybe someone there knows where they
are still said.
Personally, I'd rather sleep late on Sundays. :-)
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
-The ability to change one's mind, ideas, and opinions when confronted with
new facts is the sign of the rational and intelligent. The inability to do
so is the hallmark of the dimwitted and the fanatic. This applies not only
to science and philosophy, but also to politics.-
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 03:53:06 PM |
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In article <pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net>,
manthony@stopspam.net says...
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
Well I'm a former catholic, or "cultural catholic". It's kind of like
the situation with "secular jews". We understand the catholic culture
and we can clearly see that the catholic leadership is utterly full of
*****. You can be catholic and disagree with the pope. The church
leadership has no credible basis for claiming absolute leadership or
infallibility. At most they are there to give advice. In actual fact,
the majority of catholics do not agree with everything in church
doctrine. In fact the majority of catholics don't even know a fraction
of the things contained in church doctrine. Folks like Kerry might
finally be able to lead some reform in the Catholic church. You can
respect the pope and the church leadership as sources of advice. They
can do what they will on their own property (though much of it is ill
gotten) so long as they don't break the law. But they are not god's
representatives and never have been. Catholics need to wake up and tell
the church how it will be run, rather than allowing themselves to be
dictated to.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
20 Oct 2004 05:37:27 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:53:06 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well I'm a former catholic, or "cultural catholic".
Those are the ones in the most trouble.
It's kind of like
the situation with "secular jews". We understand the catholic culture
and we can clearly see that the catholic leadership is utterly full of
*****.
Then you don't understand. Even I can see that.
Catholics need to wake up and tell
the church how it will be run, rather than allowing themselves to be
dictated to.
We already know they tell us. That's why we're Catholic.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
21 Oct 2004 10:28:16 PM |
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In article <m1qdn0p575tmb8eiv3l6dsdfat69ob545u@4ax.com>,
duckgumbo32@cox.net says...
We already know they tell us. That's why we're Catholic.
I'm sure that you considered it your Catholic duty to suck the priest's
***** when you were an altar boy-toy.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 05:07:12 AM |
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:28:16 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm sure that you considered it your Catholic duty to suck the priest's
***** when you were an altar boy-toy.
No, did you?
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 12:44:13 PM |
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In article <2umhn0dqcong9ui37cevk18oej5m4mgq1k@4ax.com>,
duckgumbo32@cox.net says...
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:28:16 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm sure that you considered it your Catholic duty to suck the priest's
***** when you were an altar boy-toy.
No, did you?
I'm not a brainwashed zombie like you, so I was never an altar boy to
begin with. However, your denial is a bit weak. Are you saying that
you just took it up the ***** from the priests buy drew the line at having
to suck them off and swallow afterwards?
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 06:08:40 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:44:13 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <2umhn0dqcong9ui37cevk18oej5m4mgq1k@4ax.com>,
duckgumbo32@cox.net says...
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:28:16 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm sure that you considered it your Catholic duty to suck the priest's
***** when you were an altar boy-toy.
No, did you?
I'm not a brainwashed zombie like you, so I was never an altar boy to
begin with. However, your denial is a bit weak. Are you saying that
you just took it up the ***** from the priests buy drew the line at having
to suck them off and swallow afterwards?
Actually, it sounds more like he did it for pure fun. Just the way he
continually sucks the molten white ***** out of gods innards.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
23 Oct 2004 06:53:50 AM |
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:44:13 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm not a brainwashed zombie like you, so I was never an altar boy to
begin with.
Neither was I.
However, your denial is a bit weak. Are you saying that
you just took it up the ***** from the priests buy drew the line at having
to suck them off and swallow afterwards?
No, every priest I've ever known, and I've been friends with lots of them, are as against
such things as anybody. A few bad priests have stained the name for many, and very
unjustly.
Maybe you just come from one of the bad neighborhoods.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
23 Oct 2004 11:44:18 AM |
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On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 06:53:50 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:44:13 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm not a brainwashed zombie like you, so I was never an altar boy to
begin with.
Neither was I.
However, your denial is a bit weak. Are you saying that
you just took it up the ***** from the priests buy drew the line at having
to suck them off and swallow afterwards?
No, every priest I've ever known, and I've been friends with lots of them, are as against
such things as anybody. A few bad priests have stained the name for many, and very
unjustly.
Maybe you just come from one of the bad neighborhoods.
One would think that if god was, well.... god, he could at least
choose or control his priests such that they were not pedophiles.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
23 Oct 2004 12:29:43 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:44:18 -0400, AngryJohn <AngryJohnBelief@AngryJohn.net> wrote:
One would think that if god was, well.... god, he could at least
choose or control his priests such that they were not pedophiles.
Well, everyone is a sinner, and I would expect you to be a pedophile before I'd expect a
priest to be one.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
23 Oct 2004 02:08:40 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:29:43 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:44:18 -0400, AngryJohn <AngryJohnBelief@AngryJohn.net> wrote:
One would think that if god was, well.... god, he could at least
choose or control his priests such that they were not pedophiles.
Well, everyone is a sinner, and I would expect you to be a pedophile before I'd expect a
priest to be one.
Yet, the record shows there are many priests currently convicted,
under investigation, or running away, from actions of pedophilia.
Priests have been proven over and over again to be pedophiles. Your
expectations are just as fucked as your notions concerning god.
Good thing this is usenet and not real life. If it were and you said
what you said above to my face I would now be stomping your dumbass
intellectually deprived skull into small pieces of fossil record.
It is a good thing to watch those that accuse others. See, poopy
head, you are probably the pedophile.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
24 Oct 2004 07:46:16 AM |
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On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:08:40 -0400, AngryJohn <AngryJohnBelief@AngryJohn.net> wrote:
Yet, the record shows there are many priests currently convicted,
under investigation, or running away, from actions of pedophilia.
No body is trying to justify pedophilia. However, the storm that hit 2 years ago has been
exposed with approximately 1.5% of *American* priests in question. A few of those have
actually been convicted, as they should be if guilty. Many of them are accused but not
guilty. As is always the case, when does a 7 year old boy know when he's truly a victim.
Priests have been proven over and over again to be pedophiles. Your
expectations are just as fucked as your notions concerning god.
Nope. The worst offenders are step fathers. there are a few bad priests, but just a few
after 2 years of investigations.
Good thing this is usenet and not real life. If it were and you said
what you said above to my face I would now be stomping your dumbass
intellectually deprived skull into small pieces of fossil record.
Now angry, don't get angry.
It is a good thing to watch those that accuse others. See, poopy
head, you are probably the pedophile.
Nope - why me and not you?
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
25 Oct 2004 12:06:00 AM |
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On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:46:16 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:08:40 -0400, AngryJohn <AngryJohnBelief@AngryJohn.net> wrote:
Yet, the record shows there are many priests currently convicted,
under investigation, or running away, from actions of pedophilia.
No body is trying to justify pedophilia. However, the storm that hit 2 years ago has been
exposed with approximately 1.5% of *American* priests in question. A few of those have
actually been convicted, as they should be if guilty. Many of them are accused but not
guilty. As is always the case, when does a 7 year old boy know when he's truly a victim.
A 7 year old boy is a victim when he walks into a catholic church,
without regard to the pedophile priests.
Priests have been proven over and over again to be pedophiles. Your
expectations are just as fucked as your notions concerning god.
Nope. The worst offenders are step fathers. there are a few bad priests, but just a few
after 2 years of investigations.
You have the inability to stay on topic exhibited by those of a class
known to the world as fucking morons. If you want to discuss
stepfathers start a new thread. Your mention within this thread of
something you feel is worse is the lamest of lame attempt to mitigate
the easily verifiable public record of the priests within your church.
How many millions has the Boston church paid out poopy?
Good thing this is usenet and not real life. If it were and you said
what you said above to my face I would now be stomping your dumbass
intellectually deprived skull into small pieces of fossil record.
Now angry, don't get angry.
Anyone that even insinuates me to be a pedophile deserves nothing more
than being kicked in the nuts til their nose bleeds. That is what I
would do to you if you said the same thing to me in real life. Good
thing for you this is usenet.
It is a good thing to watch those that accuse others. See, poopy
head, you are probably the pedophile.
Nope - why me and not you?
Because you are a catholic I'm not.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 04:28:12 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:53:06 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well I'm a former catholic, or "cultural catholic".
Didn't know that about you (prolly because I don't recall seeing you post to a.r.c.)
<snip>
Catholics need to wake up and tell
the church how it will be run, rather than allowing themselves to be
dictated to.
Hear, hear!
The U.S. could be the place where it starts, given the current climate.
It'd most likely mean a schism in the American Church (a development
I'd welcome.) The "right behind" rump could continue gravitating toward
weird fundy Protestantism, while the breakaway group could ally itself
with. e.g. the Dutch and other more 'progressive' branches. The hegemony
of the rcc would be broken in a way that would make the historic East-West
schism a minor detail. It could topple the fortress J2P2 thought he was
building, by stacking the CoC with neofascists. I've got yer auntiechrist,
right here, Karol!
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
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| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 10:30:35 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:28:12 -0500, Apostate wrote
(in article <1m0bn09c6ie51ndinv0gpd8l7ilv8g3spj@4ax.com>):
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:53:06 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well I'm a former catholic, or "cultural catholic".
Didn't know that about you (prolly because I don't recall seeing you post to
a.r.c.)
<snip>
A lot of us who were Catholic don't post in ARC. (In my case I don't think of
myself as "Catholic" in any way, shape or form. And I ran into AA long before
I heard about ARC.)
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
"(St. Paul)... preached holy acrimony, which is another
name for marriage."-12/31/95 issue of National Review
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| User: "No 33 Secretary" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 04:16:12 PM |
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MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in
news:pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she
had trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin.
Asking her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the
reformations that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely
inspired successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God
than the average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To
be a Catholic who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
You are incorrect, though many Catholics would no doubt agree with you.
Papal infallability is extremely limited within the Church. To quote the
Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm):
"The Vatican Council has defined as "a divinely revealed dogma" that "the
Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra -- that is, when in the exercise
of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue
of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be
held by the whole Church."
In other words, the Pope is infallible only when he specifically says he's
being infallible, and only on matters of morals or faith. *Anything* else,
and the Pope is as fallible as anyone else. (The URL above is a very good
explanation of the whole thing, if you want details.)
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the
Pope?
I have a Catholic friend, who is A) a convert to his own religion (and
thus, something of a foaming at the mouth fanatic), and B) very well
educated in general, and in Catholic theology in particular. His view,
based on that considerable education, is that a good Catholic _must_
question his faith, and the teachings of the Church, in any reasonable way.
If you don't question is, you cannot understand it, and if you don't
understand it, you cannot be a good Christian. And, since the Church (the
abstract, divine creation, not the earthly organization) is perfect and
infallible, there is little for him to fear in questioning his faith. He's
confident that he'll arrive at the expected answers, not matter how fiercly
he questions his faith, or anything else. I've never asked him about how
that interacts with papal infallibility, though. I suspect it wouldn't
change anything, however, because well educated Catholics _get_ the free
will idea: if you don't make an intelligent, willing choice to accept Jesus
as your Savior, it doesn't count. So if you question something the Pope has
taught under the sanction of papal infallibility, and come to the wrong
conclusion, the fault is within you, not in the infallible teachings of the
Pope.
Personally, I think Catholics are pretty fucked up. But there is a workable
internal logic to it all.
--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 01:29:37 PM |
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On Tue 19 Oct 2004 04:16:12p, No 33 Secretary
<taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> kicked back with a beer, ruminated at
length, fell asleep, woke up, lit up a joint, then fell asleep again
after thoughtfully blurting out:
His view,
based on that considerable education, is that a good Catholic _must_
question his faith, and the teachings of the Church, in any reasonable
way.
See, this gets me. I hear this from a lot of theists, and while some
few do actually objectively question their faith and search for the
right answers whether they like them or not, most of them simply say
this and pretend to do it simply to appear intellectual and "skeptical".
What they're actually doing is questioning and questioning and
questioning, until they receive the answer they want. That is, if the
answer they get from their questioning isn't the answer that their faith
says it ought to be, it's simply a sign that they haven't questioned
enough.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
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| User: "No 33 Secretary" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 01:55:53 PM |
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Mekkala <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote in
news:Xns958A8A6F42136Mekkala@199.45.49.11:
On Tue 19 Oct 2004 04:16:12p, No 33 Secretary
<taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> kicked back with a beer, ruminated at
length, fell asleep, woke up, lit up a joint, then fell asleep again
after thoughtfully blurting out:
His view,
based on that considerable education, is that a good Catholic _must_
question his faith, and the teachings of the Church, in any reasonable
way.
See, this gets me. I hear this from a lot of theists, and while some
few do actually objectively question their faith and search for the
right answers whether they like them or not, most of them simply say
this and pretend to do it simply to appear intellectual and "skeptical".
Most people of all kinds are idiots in most things. So?
What they're actually doing is questioning and questioning and
questioning, until they receive the answer they want.
Since you've never met said friend, you are speculating based on what you
wish to be true. Frankly, you're an idiot, too.
That is, if the
answer they get from their questioning isn't the answer that their faith
says it ought to be, it's simply a sign that they haven't questioned
enough.
You really should learn about what you attack. Perhaps you wouldn't look so
stupid then.
Certainly, there are people like that. Equally certainly, they are not
universal. Nor do people who aren't good at their religion represent what
that religion teaches. There are good reasons to hate Christianity (and
Catholicism specifically). That's not one of them.
--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 02:22:29 PM |
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On Fri 22 Oct 2004 01:55:53p, No 33 Secretary
<taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> kicked back with a beer, ruminated at
length, fell asleep, woke up, lit up a joint, then fell asleep again
after thoughtfully blurting out:
Mekkala <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote in
news:Xns958A8A6F42136Mekkala@199.45.49.11:
On Tue 19 Oct 2004 04:16:12p, No 33 Secretary
<taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> kicked back with a beer, ruminated at
length, fell asleep, woke up, lit up a joint, then fell asleep again
after thoughtfully blurting out:
His view,
based on that considerable education, is that a good Catholic _must_
question his faith, and the teachings of the Church, in any
reasonable way.
See, this gets me. I hear this from a lot of theists, and while some
few do actually objectively question their faith and search for the
right answers whether they like them or not, most of them simply say
this and pretend to do it simply to appear intellectual and
"skeptical".
Most people of all kinds are idiots in most things. So?
What they're actually doing is questioning and questioning and
questioning, until they receive the answer they want.
Since you've never met said friend, you are speculating based on what
you wish to be true. Frankly, you're an idiot, too.
Woah! I'm sorry if I appeared to be attacking your friend. I wasn't
intending to. You just mentioned that particular statement, and I said
"this gets me", meaning the statement and how it's often used, not
necessarily your friend in particular. You'll notice that I said some
people who say that do honestly question their faith, and for all I
know, your friend is one of those.
That is, if the
answer they get from their questioning isn't the answer that their
faith says it ought to be, it's simply a sign that they haven't
questioned enough.
You really should learn about what you attack. Perhaps you wouldn't
look so stupid then.
Certainly, there are people like that. Equally certainly, they are not
universal. Nor do people who aren't good at their religion represent
what that religion teaches. There are good reasons to hate
Christianity (and Catholicism specifically). That's not one of them.
You're reaming me for what you imagine I said -- that people universally
use that statement in the way I described. Since I actually did NOT say
that -- in fact, I said that some don't do it -- you're attacking a
strawman. Nor did I say that it is a good reason to hate Christianity
or Catholicism, but only that it annoys me when people do that.
My error was really in not making it clear that my post was a brainfart
brought on by a sentence in yours, not a direct attack on you or your
friend (though I can see how you took it that way). But take a deep
breath, step back, and re-read my post, instead of reacting
instinctively with anger.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
20 Oct 2004 06:47:48 AM |
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MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net>...
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
My friend is a Catholic but doesn't believe in papal infallability,
anti-abortionism, the afterlife, the supernatural, virgin birth,
resurrection, divinity of Iesus, Iehouah, or the Labour party. She is
a dentistry student.
~Iain
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
21 Oct 2004 06:26:25 AM |
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:47:48 -0700, Iain wrote:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net>...
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she
had trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin.
Asking her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the
reformations that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a
Catholic who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the
Pope?
My friend is a Catholic but doesn't believe in papal infallability,
anti-abortionism, the afterlife, the supernatural, virgin birth,
resurrection, divinity of Iesus, Iehouah, or the Labour party. She is a
dentistry student.
~Iain
It doesn't sound like she's really Catholic; she just goes to a Catholic
church by force of habit.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 04:29:12 AM |
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MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.10.21.11.28.56.84610@stopspam.net>...
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:47:48 -0700, Iain wrote:
MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.10.19.12.12.30.658743@stopspam.net>...
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she
had trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin.
Asking her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the
reformations that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a
Catholic who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the
Pope?
My friend is a Catholic but doesn't believe in papal infallability,
anti-abortionism, the afterlife, the supernatural, virgin birth,
resurrection, divinity of Iesus, Iehouah, or the Labour party. She is a
dentistry student.
~Iain
It doesn't sound like she's really Catholic; she just goes to a Catholic
church by force of habit.
She scarcely goes to church, but makes it clear that she's a Catholic.
~Iain
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 07:48:46 PM |
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MarkA wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that
she had trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in
Latin. Asking her about this, it came out that she did not believe
in the reformations that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in
English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely
inspired successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to
God than the average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible.
To be a Catholic who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a
Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the
Pope?
The RCC holds that the pope is only infallible when speaking "ex-cathedra"
on matters of faith and morals.
So if the pope decides that Pepsi is better than coke (Or Coke) his opinion
is no more valid than yours.
If the pope says that priests can't marry or that contraception can't be
used then it is still just an opinion but obviously has a lot of weight.
You will never see a pope make such a statement. In some regions priests,
Roman Catholic Priests do marry and contraception is practiced by a huge
percentage of the population. In time they will have to wake up and allow
it.
Saying they are infallible and big ticket items from the past are about the
only time you will ever see a pope speak and claim infallibility. Mary was
assumed into heaven is one of them.
Prior to Vatican I in 1870 or so infallibility was held by the magnisterium
but they changed that. They don't say why a group was right before and one
man after.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 07:40:02 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:09:55 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul,
Peter.
and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible.
AFAIK, the Pope is recognized by the RCC as a fallible human, who is
subject to error, unless he is officially making a pronouncement on a
matter of faith and morals "ex cathedra", which is a rare occurrence.
The last one I recall was on the subject of the Virgin Mary's bodily
Assumption into Heaven, by Paul VI.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
20 Oct 2004 05:39:44 PM |
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AFAIK, the Pope is recognized by the RCC as a fallible human, who is
subject to error, unless he is officially making a pronouncement on a
matter of faith and morals "ex cathedra", which is a rare occurrence.
The last one I recall was on the subject of the Virgin Mary's bodily
Assumption into Heaven, by Paul VI.
And the only other one was the declaration of the Immaculate Conception.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 08:41:47 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:40:02 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:09:55 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul,
Peter.
Don't forget Mary.
and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible.
AFAIK, the Pope is recognized by the RCC as a fallible human, who is
subject to error, unless he is officially making a pronouncement on a
matter of faith and morals "ex cathedra", which is a rare occurrence.
The last one I recall was on the subject of the Virgin Mary's bodily
Assumption into Heaven, by Paul VI.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
And Duty Imp and Rapscallion
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
22 Oct 2004 08:41:18 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:09:55 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe.
Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible.
No. Infallible only comes into play when he farts 'ex cathedra.'
To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
And Duty Imp and Rapscallion
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 03:12:28 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:09:55 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
Ah, but they think he's not the pope. So at least it's a consistent
delusion.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
19 Oct 2004 08:36:11 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:09:55 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
Yes, plenty of them. My own sister for example. She is both staunchly
RCC, going at least once per week and at the same time
approves/applies birth control.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Catholics who doubt the Pope |
20 Oct 2004 05:35:17 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:09:55 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
I had a discussion the other day with a friend who complained that she had
trouble finding a Catholic church that conducted masses in Latin. Asking
her about this, it came out that she did not believe in the reformations
that lead to Catholic masses being conducted in English.
I was of the belief that the Pope was supposed to be a divinely inspired
successor to Paul, and that he has a closer connection to God than the
average Joe. Ergo, the Pope's decisions are infallible. To be a Catholic
who doesn't agree with the Pope is to not be a Catholic.
Has anyone else heard a Catholic try to defend disagreement with the Pope?
The Pope can, but not necessarily does, speak infallibly for the Christian church but only
in matters of faith and morals.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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