| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Therion Ware" |
| Date: |
30 Aug 2007 12:09:29 AM |
| Object: |
Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
I was thinking when I was making my first coffee of the day an hour
ago. A rare event to be sure, but, it occured to me that cellphones
with built in cameras have made tremendous penetration into society,
hence a high proportion of the population are carrying a camera with
them 24 hours a day.
If supernatural beings exist, or UFOs[1], for that matter, shouldn't
we be seeing a proliferation of photographs[2] of them?
[1]. Some fundies of course think that UFOs *are* supernatural demonic
manifestations in new clothes.
[2]. Fuzzy, out of focus photographs to be sure, but photographs
none-the-less. Me? I have a tremendous collection of photos of
headless horsemen, and headless people in general, but I think that
might be more to do with my aim than supernatural manifestations...
.
|
|
| User: "MarkA" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
30 Aug 2007 09:17:26 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:09:29 +0100, Therion Ware wrote:
I was thinking when I was making my first coffee of the day an hour
ago. A rare event to be sure, but, it occured to me that cellphones
with built in cameras have made tremendous penetration into society,
hence a high proportion of the population are carrying a camera with
them 24 hours a day.
If supernatural beings exist, or UFOs[1], for that matter, shouldn't
we be seeing a proliferation of photographs[2] of them?
[1]. Some fundies of course think that UFOs *are* supernatural demonic
manifestations in new clothes.
[2]. Fuzzy, out of focus photographs to be sure, but photographs
none-the-less. Me? I have a tremendous collection of photos of
headless horsemen, and headless people in general, but I think that
might be more to do with my aim than supernatural manifestations...
Have you heard of "Electronic Voice Phenomena?" (EVP). It is the idea
that an untuned electronic receiver, such as a nursery monitor or
walkie-talkie, picking up voices, is getting its signals from the spirit
world. Talk about "fantasy prone personality!"
--
MarkA
(This space accidentally filled in)
.
|
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|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
31 Aug 2007 11:33:37 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:17:26 -0400, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
Have you heard of "Electronic Voice Phenomena?" (EVP). It is the idea
that an untuned electronic receiver, such as a nursery monitor or
walkie-talkie
They're both "tuned". But the phenomenon that's picked up by untuned,
SLF receivers is well-known. Some people even have a name for it -
lightning.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
31 Aug 2007 07:08:04 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:33:37 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:17:26 -0400, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
Have you heard of "Electronic Voice Phenomena?" (EVP). It is the idea
that an untuned electronic receiver, such as a nursery monitor or
walkie-talkie
They're both "tuned". But the phenomenon that's picked up by untuned,
SLF receivers is well-known. Some people even have a name for it -
lightning.
This is a *genuine* letter sent to James Randi:
http://www.randi.org/jr/030102.html
"Dear Sir: I do not believe that you plan to pay off on your
Paranormal Challenge because you will not define what YOU WILL ACCEPT
AS PROOF. Nonetheless, I can demonstrate the fact that consciousness
and personality not only survive death, but that they can communicate
with us in a way that anyone can hear and understand: I receive and
record Electronic Voice Phenomena from a common household appliance.
It is a Krups model #467 coffee maker. I record the Spirits speaking
through the coffee maker in their own voices with a Radio Shack
Digital Voice Recorder and have hundreds of clear, often lengthy,
meaningful statements from them. They will answer questions and they
can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the
vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running. Their voices can be
heard emanating from the coffee maker in real time, (as they are
speaking) though it is difficult to understand most of their words "in
real time." They used to call "HELP!" very loudly at first and that
was quite easy to understand. Those calls for help and hearing my name
was how I first discovered (to my horror, initially) that this was
happening.
In order to test this you may use your own equipment, (Coffee maker
and recorder, though I prefer that it be a similar Krups #467) and the
experiment can be done in any location. It does not have to be in my
home. I live in Maryland and only ask that it not be a great distance
to travel. I analyze the recordings with a computer software program
that the recorder downloads to, but one of your people can do the
analyzing. (There are usually many statements per each minute of
recording that can overlap one another.)
The positive result could be that you will receive a response that is
meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken query. A
negative result would be that you didn't, but I believe that you have
your own standard of what constitutes proof and that is the challenge
that I would like to meet.
I have already successfully recorded Spirit voices from this coffee
maker in a location other than my home and I also have recordings of
Spirit voices from another Krups #467 made by a gentleman in another
state. My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you
have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid.
KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO
ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE.
Sincerely, Ms. C."
Phew, what a loony!
.
|
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|
| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
31 Aug 2007 11:20:33 PM |
|
|
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:s8bhd3lf0rq467kctiqnv6122sc4k97221@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:33:37 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:17:26 -0400, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
Have you heard of "Electronic Voice Phenomena?" (EVP). It is the idea
that an untuned electronic receiver, such as a nursery monitor or
walkie-talkie
They're both "tuned". But the phenomenon that's picked up by untuned,
SLF receivers is well-known. Some people even have a name for it -
lightning.
This is a *genuine* letter sent to James Randi:
http://www.randi.org/jr/030102.html
"Dear Sir: I do not believe that you plan to pay off on your
Paranormal Challenge because you will not define what YOU WILL ACCEPT
AS PROOF. Nonetheless, I can demonstrate the fact that consciousness
and personality not only survive death, but that they can communicate
with us in a way that anyone can hear and understand: I receive and
record Electronic Voice Phenomena from a common household appliance.
It is a Krups model #467 coffee maker. I record the Spirits speaking
through the coffee maker in their own voices with a Radio Shack
Digital Voice Recorder and have hundreds of clear, often lengthy,
meaningful statements from them. They will answer questions and they
can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the
vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running. Their voices can be
heard emanating from the coffee maker in real time, (as they are
speaking) though it is difficult to understand most of their words "in
real time." They used to call "HELP!" very loudly at first and that
was quite easy to understand. Those calls for help and hearing my name
was how I first discovered (to my horror, initially) that this was
happening.
In order to test this you may use your own equipment, (Coffee maker
and recorder, though I prefer that it be a similar Krups #467) and the
experiment can be done in any location. It does not have to be in my
home. I live in Maryland and only ask that it not be a great distance
to travel. I analyze the recordings with a computer software program
that the recorder downloads to, but one of your people can do the
analyzing. (There are usually many statements per each minute of
recording that can overlap one another.)
The positive result could be that you will receive a response that is
meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken query. A
negative result would be that you didn't, but I believe that you have
your own standard of what constitutes proof and that is the challenge
that I would like to meet.
I have already successfully recorded Spirit voices from this coffee
maker in a location other than my home and I also have recordings of
Spirit voices from another Krups #467 made by a gentleman in another
state. My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you
have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid.
KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO
ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE.
Sincerely, Ms. C."
Phew, what a loony!
I wonder if he checked to see if there were still any
Commies hiding in his toaster.
.
|
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| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 04:29:19 AM |
|
|
"Michelle Malkin" <hypati...@comcast.net> wrote:
I wonder if he checked to see if there were still any
Commies hiding in his toaster.- Hide quoted text -
I wonder why Randi didn't just test the claim.
And, yeah, I know this is considered evil and all that,
but the "million dollar prize" was a good idea that
turned out rotten.
It serves the EXACT SAME purpose of Hovind's
famous "Prize" for anyone that "Proves" evolution.
Which is to say, followers use it as an excuse to
not think.
A great example of this was when I came up with
a paranormal ability that COULD NOT be tested.
What I did was offered to answer any question, but
the trick was that you had to want the answer and
not something else. I couldn't tell you the next winning
lottery number, for example, because it wouldn't be
the information itself that you wanted, but to PLAY
that lottery number and WIN that money.
Naturally, testing me with a question would be equally
invalid. Because, the information you'd be seeking
would NOT be the answer to the question you asked,
but whether or not I was for real.
Anyhow, presented with a paranormal claim designed
to be untestable, what to a half dozen or more Randi
fans demand of me? You guessed to; that I take Randi's
challenge and win the prize!
But the I.Q. of Randi's fans isn't any reflection on him,
right? Well...
Here's a claim that WAS submitted to Randi & company:
http://arthurepling.com/aec.shtml
Now what did the brain surgeons & streetcar conductors
at Randi's organization suggest? Why, they wanted to
break the eggs with a hammer, because they were afraid
that the device was simply detecting steam!
"Huh? They're afraid of steam?"
Yeah, I know, you've got to wonder if they were exposed to
a lot of mercury or something...
Anyhow, as I pointed out, what the guy was actually doing
was "predicting" whether or not the person with the eggs
was really going to drop them in the water or not.
Seriously. His experiment involved someone taking an
egg and STATING that they are "Dropping it in now." So
what the man was REALLY testing is whether or not you
(meaning the person with the eggs) was telling the truth
or lying...
Now it just so happens that "Voice Stress Analysis," used
as a lie-detector test, is not at all uncommon. It's highly
inaccurate, sure, but it's not uncommon. As for "unaccurate,"
the guy applying for Randi's prize was only claiming a 33%
rate (less than coin flipping).
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040211080041.htm
But that's NOT what Randi's organization had a problem
with. They didn't complain because the guy was performing
a voice-stress analysis and calling it "paranormal"... they
didn't object to his 66% failure rate... they expressed a
concern that his machine was detecting steam!
What a bunch of maroons....
And then there's the test itself:
Oddly, I actually did the google think on Hovind's prize,
and it turns out that there's some VERY interesting
issues which apply equally to Randi's prize:
| As an aside, this type of offer can be legally
| withdrawn at any time, up until the very moment
| that the conditions have been met. Thus, even if
| there has been fairly extensive discussions over
| the terms (as there have been on occasions in
| the past - see footnote 12), Hovind, if he felt the
| need, could simply say that the offer is no longer
| in effect and avoid paying, as long as the
| conditions had not been fully met up to that point.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind.html#footnote29
THE EXACT SAME thing applies to Randi's prize.
Legally, Randi doesn't have to pay out that prize any
more than Hovind did. Yet idiots cling to the notion
of the prize, surrender their minds to it, uphold it as
some kind of useful measure of what is real and not
real.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 05:42:18 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 02:29:19 -0700, JTEM <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:
"Michelle Malkin" <hypati...@comcast.net> wrote:
I wonder if he checked to see if there were still any
Commies hiding in his toaster.- Hide quoted text -
I wonder why Randi didn't just test the claim.
And, yeah, I know this is considered evil and all that,
but the "million dollar prize" was a good idea that
turned out rotten.
Are you trying to be ironic, or just plain STUPID?
It serves the EXACT SAME purpose of Hovind's
famous "Prize" for anyone that "Proves" evolution.
Which is to say, followers use it as an excuse to
not think.
Yes, I do believe you are.
And succeeding.
A great example of this was when I came up with
a paranormal ability that COULD NOT be tested.
What I did was offered to answer any question, but
the trick was that you had to want the answer and
not something else. I couldn't tell you the next winning
lottery number, for example, because it wouldn't be
the information itself that you wanted, but to PLAY
that lottery number and WIN that money.
Naturally, testing me with a question would be equally
invalid. Because, the information you'd be seeking
would NOT be the answer to the question you asked,
but whether or not I was for real.
Anyhow, presented with a paranormal claim designed
to be untestable, what to a half dozen or more Randi
fans demand of me? You guessed to; that I take Randi's
challenge and win the prize!
But the I.Q. of Randi's fans isn't any reflection on him,
right? Well...
Here's a claim that WAS submitted to Randi & company:
http://arthurepling.com/aec.shtml
Now what did the brain surgeons & streetcar conductors
at Randi's organization suggest? Why, they wanted to
break the eggs with a hammer, because they were afraid
that the device was simply detecting steam!
"Huh? They're afraid of steam?"
Yeah, I know, you've got to wonder if they were exposed to
a lot of mercury or something...
Anyhow, as I pointed out, what the guy was actually doing
was "predicting" whether or not the person with the eggs
was really going to drop them in the water or not.
Seriously. His experiment involved someone taking an
egg and STATING that they are "Dropping it in now." So
what the man was REALLY testing is whether or not you
(meaning the person with the eggs) was telling the truth
or lying...
Now it just so happens that "Voice Stress Analysis," used
as a lie-detector test, is not at all uncommon. It's highly
inaccurate, sure, but it's not uncommon. As for "unaccurate,"
the guy applying for Randi's prize was only claiming a 33%
rate (less than coin flipping).
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040211080041.htm
But that's NOT what Randi's organization had a problem
with. They didn't complain because the guy was performing
a voice-stress analysis and calling it "paranormal"... they
didn't object to his 66% failure rate... they expressed a
concern that his machine was detecting steam!
What a bunch of maroons....
And then there's the test itself:
Oddly, I actually did the google think on Hovind's prize,
and it turns out that there's some VERY interesting
issues which apply equally to Randi's prize:
| As an aside, this type of offer can be legally
| withdrawn at any time, up until the very moment
| that the conditions have been met. Thus, even if
| there has been fairly extensive discussions over
| the terms (as there have been on occasions in
| the past - see footnote 12), Hovind, if he felt the
| need, could simply say that the offer is no longer
| in effect and avoid paying, as long as the
| conditions had not been fully met up to that point.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind.html#footnote29
THE EXACT SAME thing applies to Randi's prize.
Legally, Randi doesn't have to pay out that prize any
more than Hovind did. Yet idiots cling to the notion
of the prize, surrender their minds to it, uphold it as
some kind of useful measure of what is real and not
real.
You are a fucking liar.
Legally he *DOES*!!!
It is an enforcable contract between The JREF and the applicant who
can manage to fill in the entry form coherently.
You have got my dander up here with your outright fraudulent lies.
I had not taken you for such a fabricating lying fuckwit until now.
.
|
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| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 05:51:05 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
Legally, Randi doesn't have to pay out that prize any
more than Hovind did. Yet idiots cling to the notion
of the prize, surrender their minds to it, uphold it as
some kind of useful measure of what is real and not
real.
You are a fucking liar.
Are you insane?
I BACKED UP WHAT I SAID with a cite from the
talk.origins website!
What you YOU basing YOUR statements on, besides
wishful thinking?
Here's the quote again:
| As an aside, this type of offer can be legally withdrawn
| at any time, up until the very moment that the conditions
| have been met.
Were you thinking that Florida law ONLY applied to Hovind,
that there's a Randi Exception?
Please.
You're claiming that the talk.origins website lies. Could
you state your reasons for making this claim?
.
|
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 08:01:25 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 03:51:05 -0700, JTEM <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
Legally, Randi doesn't have to pay out that prize any
more than Hovind did. Yet idiots cling to the notion
of the prize, surrender their minds to it, uphold it as
some kind of useful measure of what is real and not
real.
You are a fucking liar.
Are you insane?
I BACKED UP WHAT I SAID with a cite from the
talk.origins website!
What you YOU basing YOUR statements on, besides
wishful thinking?
Here's the quote again:
| As an aside, this type of offer can be legally withdrawn
| at any time, up until the very moment that the conditions
| have been met.
Were you thinking that Florida law ONLY applied to Hovind,
that there's a Randi Exception?
Please.
You're claiming that the talk.origins website lies. Could
you state your reasons for making this claim?
Ahhh... I get it now.
Sarcasm.
My apologies.
I thought that you were for real.
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 11:43:51 PM |
|
|
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
I thought that you were for real.
The talk.origins website IS for real.
Everything I've stated is an absolutel fact, and I
can back it up with cites. I'm actually quite
eager to.
All you've got to do is construct a case that includes
cites of your own. You're saying the talk.origins
website got it wrong -- amongst other things -- so you
explain why you want to believe that.
The ball is in your court.
.
|
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
02 Sep 2007 01:48:54 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:43:51 -0700, JTEM <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
I thought that you were for real.
The talk.origins website IS for real.
Everything I've stated is an absolutel fact, and I
can back it up with cites. I'm actually quite
eager to.
All you've got to do is construct a case that includes
cites of your own. You're saying the talk.origins
website got it wrong -- amongst other things -- so you
explain why you want to believe that.
The ball is in your court.
Except that you performed a slieght of hand relaying the onus from
JREF contracts onto a Hovind requirement.
You were in fact dishonest, not sarcastic.
I withdraw my apology.
Put it to me why JREF does not have to honour a formal contract, if
you can.
You have made that extraordinary claim that formal contracts need not
be honoured in the state of Florida, until they are completeed, or
some such nonsense.
The ball is in your court, not mine.
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
02 Sep 2007 04:49:18 AM |
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|
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
Put it to me why JREF does not have to honour a
formal contract, if you can.
The talk.origins website already went over the matter.
Why would anything I add be more acceptable to you
than a third party?
but, if it'll help you....
We're talking about prizes here, not fees for services.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
02 Sep 2007 06:09:33 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 02:49:18 -0700, JTEM <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
Put it to me why JREF does not have to honour a
formal contract, if you can.
The talk.origins website already went over the matter.
Why would anything I add be more acceptable to you
than a third party?
but, if it'll help you....
We're talking about prizes here, not fees for services.
I note that you did not address my issues, snipped them and avouded
them, then plonked in a red herring.
We are talking LEGAL CONTRACTS here, not prizes.
Or at least the JREF and I am.
You are talking crimson fish.
Learn something about the subject, stop the distractions from reality,
or stop spoutning shite.
.
|
|
|
| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
02 Sep 2007 07:02:07 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
I note that you did not address my issues,
Okay, fine. Your "Issues" are that you don't like the
truth.
There. I addressed your "Issues."
We are talking LEGAL CONTRACTS here, not prizes.
Um, no. No we are not:
| At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone
| who can show, under proper observing conditions,
| evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult
| power or event.
http://www.randi.org/research/
See how this works? I offered YET ANOTHER CITE
to demonstrate that I base my statements on reality.
All I asked of you was that you do the same... and you
haven't.
So, please ignore this response (the randi cite blows
the doors off you anyway) unless you're back up
your statements.
I'm not interested in your opinions here. You're pretending
that this isn't about opinions, that it's about facts, so
you offer some cites that support your claims.
Or *****.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Steve O" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
02 Sep 2007 08:00:53 AM |
|
|
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ba6ld3t8bkr49av36jvmho3bk8fabajis6@4ax.com...
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 02:49:18 -0700, JTEM <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
Put it to me why JREF does not have to honour a
formal contract, if you can.
The talk.origins website already went over the matter.
Why would anything I add be more acceptable to you
than a third party?
but, if it'll help you....
We're talking about prizes here, not fees for services.
I note that you did not address my issues, snipped them and avouded
them, then plonked in a red herring.
We are talking LEGAL CONTRACTS here, not prizes.
Or at least the JREF and I am.
You are talking crimson fish.
Learn something about the subject, stop the distractions from reality,
or stop spoutning shite.
Guys, not sure what the entire argument is here as I haven't followed the
full thread, but does this help?
http://www.weirdasianews.com/2007/08/30/man-loses-house-and-belongings-on-boastful-bet/
Let me know if it has any bearing on what you were discussing
--
Steve O
a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter)
B.A.A.W.A.
Convicted by Earthquack
"The only problem with Baptists is that they don't hold them underwater long
enough."
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
03 Sep 2007 03:12:08 AM |
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|
"Steve O" <hoor...@nospamhere.com> wrote:
Let me know if it has any bearing on what you were
discussing
It doesn't. Not unless Dalian city is in Florida.
.
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| User: "Steve O" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 07:41:25 AM |
|
|
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Q5CdnW8JwZgcdUXbnZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:s8bhd3lf0rq467kctiqnv6122sc4k97221@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:33:37 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:17:26 -0400, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
Have you heard of "Electronic Voice Phenomena?" (EVP). It is the idea
that an untuned electronic receiver, such as a nursery monitor or
walkie-talkie
They're both "tuned". But the phenomenon that's picked up by untuned,
SLF receivers is well-known. Some people even have a name for it -
lightning.
This is a *genuine* letter sent to James Randi:
http://www.randi.org/jr/030102.html
"Dear Sir: I do not believe that you plan to pay off on your
Paranormal Challenge because you will not define what YOU WILL ACCEPT
AS PROOF. Nonetheless, I can demonstrate the fact that consciousness
and personality not only survive death, but that they can communicate
with us in a way that anyone can hear and understand: I receive and
record Electronic Voice Phenomena from a common household appliance.
It is a Krups model #467 coffee maker. I record the Spirits speaking
through the coffee maker in their own voices with a Radio Shack
Digital Voice Recorder and have hundreds of clear, often lengthy,
meaningful statements from them. They will answer questions and they
can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the
vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running. Their voices can be
heard emanating from the coffee maker in real time, (as they are
speaking) though it is difficult to understand most of their words "in
real time." They used to call "HELP!" very loudly at first and that
was quite easy to understand. Those calls for help and hearing my name
was how I first discovered (to my horror, initially) that this was
happening.
In order to test this you may use your own equipment, (Coffee maker
and recorder, though I prefer that it be a similar Krups #467) and the
experiment can be done in any location. It does not have to be in my
home. I live in Maryland and only ask that it not be a great distance
to travel. I analyze the recordings with a computer software program
that the recorder downloads to, but one of your people can do the
analyzing. (There are usually many statements per each minute of
recording that can overlap one another.)
The positive result could be that you will receive a response that is
meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken query. A
negative result would be that you didn't, but I believe that you have
your own standard of what constitutes proof and that is the challenge
that I would like to meet.
I have already successfully recorded Spirit voices from this coffee
maker in a location other than my home and I also have recordings of
Spirit voices from another Krups #467 made by a gentleman in another
state. My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you
have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid.
KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO
ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE.
Sincerely, Ms. C."
Phew, what a loony!
I wonder if he checked to see if there were still any
Commies hiding in his toaster.
Speaking of EVP's, there's a whole bunch of them recorded and available to
listen to on this site
http://www.angelsghosts.com/
Most (all) of them are really silly- why anyone would think there is
anything significant about it is beyond my reasoning.
They even hold discussions on the forum and talk about the wildest, craziest
things as if they were real.
A few of them claim to be "Angel Intuitive".
I got thrown out of their forum for suggesting they were all off their
rockers.
--
Steve O
a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter)
B.A.A.W.A.
Convicted by Earthquack
"The only problem with Baptists is that they don't hold them underwater long
enough."
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 10:52:58 AM |
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On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:41:25 +0100, "Steve O" <hooray!@nospamhere.com>
wrote:
Speaking of EVP's, there's a whole bunch of them recorded and available to
listen to on this site
http://www.angelsghosts.com/
Most (all) of them are really silly- why anyone would think there is
anything significant about it is beyond my reasoning.
They even hold discussions on the forum and talk about the wildest, craziest
things as if they were real.
A few of them claim to be "Angel Intuitive".
I got thrown out of their forum for suggesting they were all off their
rockers.
See? They INTUITED that you weren't an angel. You can't fool them.
.
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 02:28:08 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ll2jd3pa1slrdinl196lai3h9c9omkpeqk@4ax.com...
On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:41:25 +0100, "Steve O" <hooray!@nospamhere.com>
wrote:
Speaking of EVP's, there's a whole bunch of them recorded and available to
listen to on this site
http://www.angelsghosts.com/
Most (all) of them are really silly- why anyone would think there is
anything significant about it is beyond my reasoning.
They even hold discussions on the forum and talk about the wildest,
craziest
things as if they were real.
A few of them claim to be "Angel Intuitive".
I got thrown out of their forum for suggesting they were all off their
rockers.
See? They INTUITED that you weren't an angel. You can't fool them.
Actually, I did.
I appeared on their forum in a number of guises, both male and female, and
one basket case (who was also a moderator) told me the name of my angel, and
gave me detailed information about my deceased father's activities in the
afterworld. (who isn't yet deceased)
I complained about a "malevolent spirit" appearing on my couch at night, and
was advised to "surround myself with the colour purple"
When I advised them that I didn't have any purple paint, they reiterated
that I was supposed to do this with my "aura", not with actual paint
products.
They really are quite an amusing bunch, and it was fun to poke a stick at
them for a little while.
Eventually, though, they cottoned on, deleted all of my posts and blocked my
ISP address.
Ah well, if anyone else knows of any other credophile forum ripe for
picking, please let me know.
--
Steve O
a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter)
B.A.A.W.A.
Convicted by Earthquack
"The only problem with Baptists is that they don't hold them underwater long
enough."
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 01:02:37 AM |
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In article <Q5CdnW8JwZgcdUXbnZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:s8bhd3lf0rq467kctiqnv6122sc4k97221@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:33:37 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:17:26 -0400, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
Have you heard of "Electronic Voice Phenomena?" (EVP). It is the idea
that an untuned electronic receiver, such as a nursery monitor or
walkie-talkie
They're both "tuned". But the phenomenon that's picked up by untuned,
SLF receivers is well-known. Some people even have a name for it -
lightning.
This is a *genuine* letter sent to James Randi:
http://www.randi.org/jr/030102.html
"Dear Sir: I do not believe that you plan to pay off on your
Paranormal Challenge because you will not define what YOU WILL ACCEPT
AS PROOF. Nonetheless, I can demonstrate the fact that consciousness
and personality not only survive death, but that they can communicate
with us in a way that anyone can hear and understand: I receive and
record Electronic Voice Phenomena from a common household appliance.
It is a Krups model #467 coffee maker. I record the Spirits speaking
through the coffee maker in their own voices with a Radio Shack
Digital Voice Recorder and have hundreds of clear, often lengthy,
meaningful statements from them. They will answer questions and they
can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the
vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running. Their voices can be
heard emanating from the coffee maker in real time, (as they are
speaking) though it is difficult to understand most of their words "in
real time." They used to call "HELP!" very loudly at first and that
was quite easy to understand. Those calls for help and hearing my name
was how I first discovered (to my horror, initially) that this was
happening.
In order to test this you may use your own equipment, (Coffee maker
and recorder, though I prefer that it be a similar Krups #467) and the
experiment can be done in any location. It does not have to be in my
home. I live in Maryland and only ask that it not be a great distance
to travel. I analyze the recordings with a computer software program
that the recorder downloads to, but one of your people can do the
analyzing. (There are usually many statements per each minute of
recording that can overlap one another.)
The positive result could be that you will receive a response that is
meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken query. A
negative result would be that you didn't, but I believe that you have
your own standard of what constitutes proof and that is the challenge
that I would like to meet.
I have already successfully recorded Spirit voices from this coffee
maker in a location other than my home and I also have recordings of
Spirit voices from another Krups #467 made by a gentleman in another
state. My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you
have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid.
KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO
ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE.
Sincerely, Ms. C."
Phew, what a loony!
I wonder if he checked to see if there were still any
Commies hiding in his toaster.
Nah. Those were the little green men from Neptune. The Commies were in
his freezer.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 01:29:37 AM |
|
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On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 00:20:33 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:s8bhd3lf0rq467kctiqnv6122sc4k97221@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:33:37 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 22:17:26 -0400, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
Have you heard of "Electronic Voice Phenomena?" (EVP). It is the idea
that an untuned electronic receiver, such as a nursery monitor or
walkie-talkie
They're both "tuned". But the phenomenon that's picked up by untuned,
SLF receivers is well-known. Some people even have a name for it -
lightning.
This is a *genuine* letter sent to James Randi:
http://www.randi.org/jr/030102.html
"Dear Sir: I do not believe that you plan to pay off on your
Paranormal Challenge because you will not define what YOU WILL ACCEPT
AS PROOF. Nonetheless, I can demonstrate the fact that consciousness
and personality not only survive death, but that they can communicate
with us in a way that anyone can hear and understand: I receive and
record Electronic Voice Phenomena from a common household appliance.
It is a Krups model #467 coffee maker. I record the Spirits speaking
through the coffee maker in their own voices with a Radio Shack
Digital Voice Recorder and have hundreds of clear, often lengthy,
meaningful statements from them. They will answer questions and they
can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the
vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running. Their voices can be
heard emanating from the coffee maker in real time, (as they are
speaking) though it is difficult to understand most of their words "in
real time." They used to call "HELP!" very loudly at first and that
was quite easy to understand. Those calls for help and hearing my name
was how I first discovered (to my horror, initially) that this was
happening.
In order to test this you may use your own equipment, (Coffee maker
and recorder, though I prefer that it be a similar Krups #467) and the
experiment can be done in any location. It does not have to be in my
home. I live in Maryland and only ask that it not be a great distance
to travel. I analyze the recordings with a computer software program
that the recorder downloads to, but one of your people can do the
analyzing. (There are usually many statements per each minute of
recording that can overlap one another.)
The positive result could be that you will receive a response that is
meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken query. A
negative result would be that you didn't, but I believe that you have
your own standard of what constitutes proof and that is the challenge
that I would like to meet.
I have already successfully recorded Spirit voices from this coffee
maker in a location other than my home and I also have recordings of
Spirit voices from another Krups #467 made by a gentleman in another
state. My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you
have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid.
KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO
ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE.
Sincerely, Ms. C."
Phew, what a loony!
I wonder if he checked to see if there were still any
Commies hiding in his toaster.
She.
.
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 09:18:38 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:38:04 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
I have already successfully recorded Spirit voices from this coffee
maker in a location other than my home and I also have recordings of
Spirit voices from another Krups #467 made by a gentleman in another
state. My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you
have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid.
KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO
ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE.
Sincerely, Ms. C."
Phew, what a loony!
And Randi's reply to her was (from his website):
I immediately responded — within 30 minutes:
I have received your rather hysterical, presumptuous, and
misinformed inquiry. I hasten to reply.
First, the phenomenon you describe is well-known. It results from
a random "tuned circuit" within an electrical device (coffee maker,
electric typewriter, tape recorder, even an electric iron) that picks
up modulated signals from either a strong nearby AM radio station, an
amateur radio "ham," or any sort of communications device — including
a cellular phone. Improper shielding of such devices can give rise to
these audio images. These images are usually referred to by the
uninformed as "spirit voices," and the history of this sort of thing
goes far back to the early days of radio. Needless to say, those who
prefer the "spiritual" explanation cannot ever be convinced that they
are wrong.
In any case, your claim is certainly eligible for application to
the million-dollar challenge, of course.
You wrote: "My guess is that after all of your years of
investigating, you have already found out that Electronic Voice
Phenomena is valid." Well, your guess is quite wrong. We have been
approached by several people who make this claim, and in every case we
have resolved the phenomenon as a quite ordinary one. In most cases,
we are able to determine the source of the audio image, and to prove
conclusively that it is quite explainable. In one case we showed that
on the half-hour there was a "station ID" given, and it seemed to us
that the "spirits" would not be providing such a service.
You demand: "KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET
IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE." It's obvious that we cannot
outline the "criteria" required — in our rules and requirements —
since every claim is different, and requires different standards:
guessing whether a coin will fall heads or tails, is quite different
from predicting how a certain stock will do on the NYSE.
Your claim is quite interesting, though. You say that you receive
"hundreds of clear, often lengthy, meaningful statements from them."
Yes, I'm sure that you do. That's the nature of broadcasts and
telephone communications, which you are picking up. So, that is not a
factor here. But, you also say, "They will answer questions and they
can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the
vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running." Excellent! This is
something that we can certainly test. It is something that cannot be
mistaken for random voice noise.
You also state, "Their voices can be heard emanating from the
coffee maker in real time, (as they are speaking) though it is
difficult to understand most of their words 'in real time'."
Yes, I'm sure. And therein (the underlined part) lies a great
difficulty. In my experience, victims of this (and similar) delusions
amass a great lot of material, and then pick through it patiently for
long periods of time until something resembling the answer they are
looking for, shows up. I knew of a man in Germany (his wife's
hair-dryer spoke to him) who asked simply, "What is 2 plus 2?" and
then went through 20 minutes of tape until he heard something that
sounded like "fear," (that's "vier," or "four" in German) and claimed
that the question had been answered. I'd like to know from you, how
long it takes for the questions to be answered....?
"The positive result could be that you will receive a response
that is meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken
query." Yes, that would work. My question would be something direct,
such as, "What was the name of my paternal great-grandfather?"
However, that question, in writing, would be placed in such a position
that no one but the spirits would be able to read it.
Does this sound feasible to you? We are in the very first stages
here of developing a possible protocol. I know that you will ignore
the possibilities that I have outlined here as mundane explanations,
since you're absolutely dedicated to a paranormal modality, and after
you have failed the test, you will persist in believing — because you
need this to be true. However, I'm required to give you this
information, on the remote chance that you might recognize the true
nature of the phenomenon.
Ms. C, you should think about your story. The "voices" part is,
I'm sure, quite true. The answering of questions, I believe, is the
part that you have provided to validate the paranormal aspects of your
claim. Yes, I know, you will deny this — even to yourself — but again,
I'm required to give you this information.
I await your response.
Stay tuned for further developments....
WOA* #2278
If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
__________
*Wicked Old Atheist
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 10:51:37 AM |
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On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:38:04 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
Phew, what a loony!
I "listen to" a coffle maker in Maryland quite often - a Mr. Coffee
FTTX95, in my case. (My sister-in-law lives in Maryland - maybe she
should move.)
I've had many conversations with the coffee maker. I say, "Come on,
brew faster." It responds, "Blurp." I ask, "aren't you done yet?" It
responds, "Blip."
Maybe I should run Mc. C's "analysis program" on the sounds.
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 10:54:03 AM |
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On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:51:37 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:38:04 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
Phew, what a loony!
I "listen to" a coffle maker in Maryland quite often - a Mr. Coffee
FTTX95, in my case. (My sister-in-law lives in Maryland - maybe she
should move.)
A coffle maker?
Surely not.
cof·fle /'k?f?l, 'k?f?l/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[kaw-fuhl, kof-uhl]
–noun 1. a line of animals, prisoners, or slaves chained and driven
along together.
–verb (used with object) 2. to chain in a coffle.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
2006.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 06:47:35 PM |
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On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:54:03 -0400, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:51:37 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:38:04 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
Phew, what a loony!
I "listen to" a coffle maker in Maryland quite often - a Mr. Coffee
FTTX95, in my case. (My sister-in-law lives in Maryland - maybe she
should move.)
A coffle maker?
Surely not.
cof·fle /'k?f?l, 'k?f?l/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[kaw-fuhl, kof-uhl]
–noun 1. a line of animals, prisoners, or slaves chained and driven
along together.
–verb (used with object) 2. to chain in a coffle.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
2006.
You drink coffee and my spell checker will drink coffle. (I
originally typed 'coffe' and didn't check the spell checker's choice
closely enough.)
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
30 Aug 2007 06:56:26 AM |
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On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:09:29 +0100, Therion Ware wrote:
I was thinking when I was making my first coffee of the day an hour
ago. A rare event to be sure, but, it occured to me that cellphones
with built in cameras have made tremendous penetration into society,
hence a high proportion of the population are carrying a camera with
them 24 hours a day.
If supernatural beings exist, or UFOs[1], for that matter, shouldn't
we be seeing a proliferation of photographs[2] of them?
[1]. Some fundies of course think that UFOs *are* supernatural demonic
manifestations in new clothes.
[2]. Fuzzy, out of focus photographs to be sure, but photographs
none-the-less. Me? I have a tremendous collection of photos of
headless horsemen, and headless people in general, but I think that
might be more to do with my aim than supernatural manifestations...
I have heard that is why movie producer Steven Speilberg no longer
believes in UFOs. When he made "Close Encounters," he thought UFO's were
real. Since then, however, with the high number of cameras, camcorders,
etc, circulating in public, no convincing photos have emerged. Ergo, he
has become more skeptical of their existence. I don't know if true or
not, but it makes a nice story.
--
MarkA
(My OTHER sig line is clever)
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Cellphone Use And Proofs Of The Supernatural? |
01 Sep 2007 01:29:50 AM |
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MarkA <t...@nowhere.com> wrote:
I have heard that is why movie producer Steven
Speilberg no longer believes in UFOs. When he
made "Close Encounters," he thought UFO's
were real. Since then, however, with the high
number of cameras, camcorders, etc, circulating
in public, no convincing photos have emerged.
"Convincing photo," given the context, is an oxymoron.
From the earliest days of UFOs there have been fakes.
And, yeah, that was decades before there was anything
like Photoshop available.
Not too long ago, in very little time and even less skill
I placed a friend's mother in front of a row of naked
dancing men. The result looked "Real" enough for her
to fear that people would mistake it for an actual photo.
UFOs are even easier to insert into photos than people.
Why? Because it's all about the light & shadows. Get
those right and you can fool just about anybody whose
open to the idea of a UFO. With people you've got lots
of surface area, lots of textures and colors, and the
light & shadows all has to be consistant between the
elements. Your standard UFO has a simple shape, it's
not very large (because of "distance") and there isn't a
lot of colors.
Today, software like "Final Cut" are doing for movies what
Photoshop has done for photos. But, even counting
"Classic" UFO movie/video footage, I never saw any that
didn't scream "Fake."
All UFO images, though, suffer from one of two flaws.
They are #1) too good or #2) too bad.
Some UFO images are "Too good." They show large
objects are fairly close distances, and the image is
clearly not of any aircraft that you are familair with, In
short, the record just the kind of sighting that NOBODY
could miss, yet invariably have just a handful of witnesses,
and most of those exist only in anicdotes.
Some UFO images are "Too Bad." They're either grainy,
blurry or depict tiny objects and/lights. The only thing a
truly objective person could ever conclude is that they
don't know what is being depicted in the photo/film.
Arthur C. Clarke, going back about 20 years ago,
concluded about 20 years ago that photographic
evidence was no evidence, in the case of UFOs. His
example was a photograph of what looked like a
sea monster (maybe a dinosaur or the Loch Ness
Monster), which was nothing more than an Elephant
swimming.
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