Chiropractic as useless as Scientology

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"The Last Liberal / ShyDavid / Desertphile"
Date:	17 Jan 2005 07:06:17 PM
Object:	Chiropractic as useless as Scientology

http://religionnewsblog.com/9938/Doctors--Others-Deride-Chiropractic-School
Doctors, Others Deride Chiropractic School
Associated Press, via Sun-Sentinelcom, Jan. 16, 2005
Brent Kallestad, Associated Press Writer
www.sun-sentinel.com
TALLAHASSEE, Florida -- Some Florida State University professors
have been circulating a parody map showing the campus of the
future, with a new Bigfoot Institute, a School of Astrology and a
Crop Circle Simulation Laboratory.
It's a not-so-subtle jab in a growing debate over a proposal to
build a chiropractic college on this campus -- the first such
school at a public university in the United States.
More than 500 professors, including the university's two Nobel
laureates, have signed a petition opposing the school and a
handful have even threatened to resign rather than teach alongside
what they consider a "pseudoscience."
The dispute -- the biggest academic furor in recent memory at
Florida State -- is heading to a showdown decision later this
month, pitting FSU faculty and doctors against chiropractors and
powerful lawmakers who pushed the $9 million (euro7 million)
proposal through the Legislature.
T.K. Wetherell, the normally blunt president of Florida State, has
been unusually reticent on the chiropractic flap, deferring to his
provost.
"There's a small number of faculty who would like it to happen,
there is another group of faculty who would like it to die as
painful a death as possible, and then there's another group that
has a lot of concerns that they would like answered before
anything else happens," provost Larry Abele said.
Supporters of the school, which would add 100 faculty members, say
the affiliation with a major university would quickly make it the
nation's premier program and a magnet for federal grants in
alternative medicine.
But the parody map sums up the views of many faculty -- and
physicians. They worry that chiropractic isn't based on real
science and that such a program could hurt the university's
academic reputation.
Last week, the faculty committee that oversees curriculum voted
22-0 to stop the proposed chiropractic program until it at least
had a say-so in the decision.
"There's no demonstrated need. We have more chiropractors than any
other state except California and New York," said Ray Bellamy, a
local orthopedic surgeon and associate at the medical school.
For now, the 38,000 students at Florida State have largely stayed
on the sidelines in the debate, although a few exercise physiology
majors have spoken out in support of the school.
For chiropractors, the issue is bigger than just the fight at
Florida State. It's part of an ongoing battle to win respect and
credibility in the medical community for their profession. A
chiropractic school at FSU would supply a long sought affiliation
with an established university and a major boost.
Chiropractic, which focuses on manipulating the spine to lessen
back pain and improve overall health, has won wider acceptance
over the years; it's now covered by most health insurance plans.
But in the 110 years since the profession was created, the
established medical community has largely boycotted it --
challenging its scientific validity in courts and legislative
bodies. In 1990, the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals found the
American Medical Association guilty of conspiracy to destroy the
profession.
"Chiropractic falls under the same umbrella as any number of
therapies including homeopathy, naturopathy, meditation, prayer,"
said Dr. Bill Kinsinger, an Oklahoma anesthesiologist and longtime
critic of chiropractors who is working with Florida doctors to
block the new school. "There's no more evidence for chiropractic
than there is for any of these other therapies."
The Florida Chiropractic Association says it's unfair for
opponents to try to deny them the opportunity to create the
school.
"On the one hand, they say there is no science behind what we do,"
said John Van Tassel, a Tallahassee chiropractor who tends to
Florida State's football players. "At the same time, they're
trying to prevent the very research (at a university) they say is
needed."
The university system's Board of Governors, which faces a decision
on the standoff Jan. 27. The fledgling board, which was created in
2002, has been accused of bowing to the wishes of the governor and
the legislature on higher education issues.
While not an outspoken supporter, Gov. Jeb Bush signed off on the
chiropractic school proposal in the last legislative session to
appease the House speaker and Senate president.

---
http://lastliberal.org
Guns don't kill people: Republicans kill people.
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	18 Jan 2005 06:59:50 PM

Glenn Arnold wrote:

Fredric L. Rice wrote:

Because it kills, maims, and defrauds people.

I'm curious as to you claim that it kills people. "Maims" I can
understand, because it's possible to injure someone while doing a
chiropractic adjustment, but you're really stretching it if you claim
it kills.

"At your own risk" documents at least one case where a chiropractor
convinced the parents of a child that nothing but his adjustments were
needed to cure the child's cancer.
The jury was not allowed to see the pictures of the child because the judge
thought it would prejudice them.
"Adjusting an Atlas" is something claimed by them and if this was actually
done, death might happen within minutes

Now, as to defrauding people, I imagine it depends on what the
chiropractor is claiming to treat. I know that based on some very old
pseudoscience, some chiropractors claim they can treat asthma (the
pseudoscience involved reversal of cause and effect, since people with
asthma often develop back problems due to difficulty breathing).

The fundamental principal of Palmer chiropractic is that anything can be
cured by adjustment.
*Anything* includes blindness, colds, cancer and your asthma.

But the truth is that a chiropractor can relieve the pressure on a
pinched nerve. Without surgery, there is no other way to do that.

If you can give peer reviewed references that this is the case please do so,
otherwise it is part of the pseudoscience of chiropractic.
There is nothing they can do that a good masseuse can't do. One takes their
time.

Oh, and they make you sign a form acknowledging that you may die
during surgery. What was that about killing people?

Not to long ago a full body x-ray on old equipment was done on a regular
basis to all chiro patients and they didn't mention dying....
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 02:15:25 AM

Glenn Arnold wrote:
<snip>

The fundamental principal of Palmer chiropractic is that anything
can be cured by adjustment.
*Anything* includes blindness, colds, cancer and your asthma.

Palmer was when, 100 years ago? That was when doctors used cocaine and
laudanum to treat colds. So medicine is allowed to advance because it
is a science, but chiropractic isn't?

It is but it didn't and hasn't. Only government intervention has limited
them from practicing exactly the same procedures they did 100 years ago.

But the truth is that a chiropractor can relieve the pressure on a
pinched nerve. Without surgery, there is no other way to do that.

If you can give peer reviewed references that this is the case
please do so, otherwise it is part of the pseudoscience of
chiropractic.

I'll tell that to my neurologist.

There is nothing they can do that a good masseuse can't do. One
takes their time.

Been to a masseuse. Felt good. Didn't relieve my pain. Didn't allow me
to walk upright.

Oh, and they make you sign a form acknowledging that you may die
during surgery. What was that about killing people?

Not to long ago a full body x-ray on old equipment was done on a
regular basis to all chiro patients and they didn't mention dying....

And you claim is...?

I'll assume this is a rhetorical question. If not find out what excessive
radiation does to the human body.
.

User: "Glenn Arnold"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 04:38:15 PM

Mike Painter wrote:

Glenn Arnold wrote:
<snip>

The fundamental principal of Palmer chiropractic is that anything
can be cured by adjustment.
*Anything* includes blindness, colds, cancer and your asthma.

Palmer was when, 100 years ago? That was when doctors used cocaine and
laudanum to treat colds. So medicine is allowed to advance because it
is a science, but chiropractic isn't?

It is but it didn't and hasn't. Only government intervention has limited
them from practicing exactly the same procedures they did 100 years ago.

That's a really ridiculous assertion. Kind of like saying all priests
are child molesters. Even if it's true some for some chiropractors, it
isn't true for all of them.

But the truth is that a chiropractor can relieve the pressure on a

pinched nerve. Without surgery, there is no other way to do that.

If you can give peer reviewed references that this is the case
please do so, otherwise it is part of the pseudoscience of
chiropractic.

I'll tell that to my neurologist.

There is nothing they can do that a good masseuse can't do. One
takes their time.

Been to a masseuse. Felt good. Didn't relieve my pain. Didn't allow me
to walk upright.

Oh, and they make you sign a form acknowledging that you may die
during surgery. What was that about killing people?

Not to long ago a full body x-ray on old equipment was done on a
regular basis to all chiro patients and they didn't mention dying....

And you claim is...?

I'll assume this is a rhetorical question. If not find out what excessive
radiation does to the human body.

It was a strawman argument. Even if x-rays were (or are) done, it
doesn't invalidate the fact that surgery is more dangerous.
Quote: "Not too long ago..."
My chiropractor referred me to a neurologist so I could get an MRI. How
long ago is "not too long?" I've only once had an X-ray done to diagnose
my spine, and that was done in the emergency room.
Glenn Arnold
.

User: "Douglas Berry"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 01:16:45 AM

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:59:50 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> drained his beer, leaned back in the
alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

Not to long ago a full body x-ray on old equipment was done on a regular
basis to all chiro patients and they didn't mention dying....

LOL! Ever hear of radiotherapy? Because of medically-apporved
radiotherapy, I lost my hair, half my teeth, spent two weeks living on
IV fluids, and turned all sorts of interesting colors. Add in the
dozens of X-rays I've had over the years, multiple chest films,
head/neck sections.. it's a miracle I'm not getting extra work as a
nightlight.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.

User: "The Last Liberal / ShyDavid / Desertphile"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	18 Jan 2005 05:37:45 PM

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:34:44 -0500, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:

Fredric L. Rice wrote:

Because it kills, maims, and defrauds people.

I'm curious as to you claim that it kills people.

http://www.chirobase.org/15News/lewis.html
---
http://lastliberal.org
Guns don't kill people: Republicans kill people.
"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific
fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. ...
Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory." --Rev. Jimmy
Swaggart
.

User: "Glenn Arnold"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	18 Jan 2005 06:37:17 PM

The Last Liberal / ShyDavid / Desertphile wrote:

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:34:44 -0500, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:

Fredric L. Rice wrote:

Because it kills, maims, and defrauds people.

I'm curious as to you claim that it kills people.

http://www.chirobase.org/15News/lewis.html

Wow, a stroke by accident! Well ok, then obviously chiropractic is
deadly and should be outlawed.
Just like surgery. And too much bedrest.
Glenn Arnold
.

User: "o�in"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	17 Jan 2005 10:29:56 PM

Your authorities I assume? Do you know why it is criticized and ridiculed
like this? Because it has results. And because it does not acquire drugs.
Now, that's the short of it...

In the above, "your authorities" should be "you're authorities", since that
is the contraction of "You are". You did not actually mean "authorities in
your possession", did you? And I bet that you meant "require" rather than
"acquire". And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results? Some
scientists make the foolish mistake of rejecting new ideas that conflict
with their cherished dogma, but I do not think they often reject an idea
purely due to the fact that they observe that it works! It would do your
argument more good to just stay quiet.
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	17 Jan 2005 11:00:42 PM

"o�in" <o�in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:n-OdnY9YxssnDXHcRVn-jA@whidbeytel.com...

Your authorities I assume? Do you know why it is criticized and

ridiculed

like this? Because it has results. And because it does not acquire

drugs.

Now, that's the short of it...

In the above, "your authorities" should be "you're authorities", since

that

is the contraction of "You are". You did not actually mean "authorities in
your possession", did you?

I actually did. Or as being adopted telling the truth without questioning.

And I bet that you meant "require" rather than
"acquire".

Correct.

And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results?

Not always, but in this case I suspect it. Chiropractic works, it is as
simple as that.

Some
scientists make the foolish mistake of rejecting new ideas that conflict
with their cherished dogma,

Some, only some? Quite many actually.

but I do not think they often reject an idea
purely due to the fact that they observe that it works! It would do your
argument more good to just stay quiet.

That idea is not coming from those scientists, it is not.
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Bent Stigsen"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	18 Jan 2005 01:02:03 AM

Spacetraveler wrote:

"o�in" <o�in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:n-OdnY9YxssnDXHcRVn-jA@whidbeytel.com...

[snip]

And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results?

Not always, but in this case I suspect it. Chiropractic works, it is as
simple as that.

Not really. According to my mother, who is a physiotherapist,
chiropractors rely too much on the bodys ability to heal itself. If the
problem is limited to a dislocation of bones, then they can fix you in
no time, but this will only help the patient provided, any damage due to
or causing the dislocation will heal itself.
*But* if the problem is persistent uneven muscletension, due to serious
muscledamage, bad working habits, neurological conditions, or whatever
that can give an uneven muscletension, which can be selfsustaining, then
they cant do much other than give a temporary relief between relapses,
since it is the muscles that keep all the bones in place.
I dont remember my mothers exact words on this, but it was something to
the effect; their knowledge is not useless, but as a treatment on its
own, it very often is useless.
/Bent
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	18 Jan 2005 03:12:47 AM

"Bent Stigsen" <ngars@thevoid.dk> wrote in message
news:41ecb415$0$48700$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

Spacetraveler wrote:

"o�in" <o�in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:n-OdnY9YxssnDXHcRVn-jA@whidbeytel.com...

[snip]

And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results?

Not always, but in this case I suspect it. Chiropractic works, it is as
simple as that.

Not really. According to my mother, who is a physiotherapist,
chiropractors rely too much on the bodys ability to heal itself. If the
problem is limited to a dislocation of bones, then they can fix you in
no time, but this will only help the patient provided, any damage due to
or causing the dislocation will heal itself.
*But* if the problem is persistent uneven muscletension, due to serious
muscledamage, bad working habits, neurological conditions, or whatever
that can give an uneven muscletension, which can be selfsustaining, then
they cant do much other than give a temporary relief between relapses,
since it is the muscles that keep all the bones in place.

I dont remember my mothers exact words on this, but it was something to
the effect; their knowledge is not useless, but as a treatment on its
own, it very often is useless.

Chiropractic is broken out of osteopathy.
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Bent Stigsen"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 05:14:55 PM

Spacetraveler wrote:

"Bent Stigsen" <ngars@thevoid.dk> wrote in message
news:41ecb415$0$48700$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

Spacetraveler wrote:

"o�in" <o�in@ragnarok.com> wrote in message
news:n-OdnY9YxssnDXHcRVn-jA@whidbeytel.com...

[snip]

And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results?

Not always, but in this case I suspect it. Chiropractic works, it is as
simple as that.

Not really. According to my mother, who is a physiotherapist,
chiropractors rely too much on the bodys ability to heal itself. If the
problem is limited to a dislocation of bones, then they can fix you in
no time, but this will only help the patient provided, any damage due to
or causing the dislocation will heal itself.
*But* if the problem is persistent uneven muscletension, due to serious
muscledamage, bad working habits, neurological conditions, or whatever
that can give an uneven muscletension, which can be selfsustaining, then
they cant do much other than give a temporary relief between relapses,
since it is the muscles that keep all the bones in place.

I dont remember my mothers exact words on this, but it was something to
the effect; their knowledge is not useless, but as a treatment on its
own, it very often is useless.

Chiropractic is broken out of osteopathy.

Yes, Osteopathy also has some kind of chiropractic treatment from the
same roots. Osteopathy mainly believe that most illnesses is caused by a
biomechanical disorder, Chiropractic has this limited to misplaced
spinal joints. (not exactly compliant with your scientology) They also
believe that "Within the human body there exists a constant tendency
towards health." (not sure, but I dont think they believe the mind has
any say in this) That it once existed within Osteopathy, but know is out
and is "without the drugs" makes little difference. They will probably
allways stick to their old story, no matter what the rest of the world
finds out.
It is allways the same when vague empirical results or a few facts, is
mixed with unfounded theories or nonsensicality, and then elevated to
some grand theory or explanation on how things *really* are, in a
pompous way (this includes Scientology, if you should be in doubt).
First reality hits;
While "it" seem to work some of the time, the results remain
unpredictable or unsatisfactory. Criticism arise.
Then enlightment hits;
The realization that something must be wrong spread. Internal strife
begin.
Finally stupidity hits;
Some conclude it is caused by impurity within which must be purged,
others dismiss evidence as misfortune and keep on swimming. Fractions
emerge.
I think the final part is the inescapable result of their own
self-centered grandiosity and pretentiousness.
How can a Scientologist like you have high thoughts about Chiropractics
or Osteopathy, when their theories clearly contradict what Hubbard
said. Are illnesses psychosomatic or are they caused by biomechanical
disorders?
If it is both, then this calls for some research, to uncover the
relation between the two, dont you think?
Are Chiropractors or Scientologist researching this? Is it in the
interest of Scientology/Chiropractors or mainstream medicine
(physiology, psychology, psychiatry)?
/Bent
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 12:30:20 AM

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:17:20 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
<spacetraveler@hotmail.com> said in alt.atheism:

The goal of scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not.

There are two goals of scientology:
Proving that one can make up a religion and get followers
and
To make money.

Scientology is not about believing somethings, it is basically about using
something that changes conditions for the better.

Those "conditions" being the bank accounts of those running the scam.
--
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is human
concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind cannot
begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never has
been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 07:11:57 AM

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:8sjuu0hkqsdr5rec72snu7bi5tpjtpf299@4ax.com...

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:17:20 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
<spacetraveler@hotmail.com> said in alt.atheism:

The goal of scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not.

There are two goals of scientology:

Proving that one can make up a religion and get followers
and
To make money.

Absurd claim. Then why did LRH place the copyrights in HASI for all eternity
and allowed this organization to go defunct. And so allowing the copyrights
fall into the public domain. LRH did not do anything to stop this from
happening.
Also todays pricing for services is not from LRH. They went skyrocketing
AFTER LRH disappeared.
Bad research, my dear, bad research you do.
Spacetraveler

Scientology is not about believing somethings, it is basically about

using

something that changes conditions for the better.

Those "conditions" being the bank accounts of those running the scam.
--
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is

human

concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind

cannot

begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and

never has

been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of

madness."

[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 03:52:06 PM

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:11:57 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
<spacetraveler@hotmail.com> said in alt.atheism:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:8sjuu0hkqsdr5rec72snu7bi5tpjtpf299@4ax.com...

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:17:20 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
<spacetraveler@hotmail.com> said in alt.atheism:

The goal of scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not.

There are two goals of scientology:
Proving that one can make up a religion and get followers
and
To make money.

HE set out to prove that one could create a flourishing religion out
of whole cloth (on a bet, yet). He succeeded.
The people currently running Scientology set out to make money. They
succeeded.
--
"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their
numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion,
only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
-A. Einstein (Letter to Edgar Meyer, Jan. 2, 1915)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 05:21:11 PM

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ar90v0h82irqfnoa160tgl3le30d0lcpto@4ax.com...

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:11:57 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
<spacetraveler@hotmail.com> said in alt.atheism:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:8sjuu0hkqsdr5rec72snu7bi5tpjtpf299@4ax.com...

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:17:20 GMT, "Spacetraveler"
<spacetraveler@hotmail.com> said in alt.atheism:

The goal of scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not.

There are two goals of scientology:

Proving that one can make up a religion and get followers
and
To make money.

Absurd claim. Then why did LRH place the copyrights in HASI for all

eternity

and allowed this organization to go defunct. And so allowing the

copyrights

fall into the public domain. LRH did not do anything to stop this from
happening.

HE set out to prove that one could create a flourishing religion out
of whole cloth (on a bet, yet). He succeeded.

The people currently running Scientology set out to make money. They
succeeded.

You marvelously went about it to avoid addressing the points I made. Just
great....! You are not here to find out anything, you are here to smear
and.... you are failing...
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Bent Stigsen"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 10:36:23 PM

Spacetraveler wrote:
[snip]

How can a Scientologist like you have high thoughts about Chiropractics
or Osteopathy, when their theories clearly contradict what Hubbard
said.

If I see that something works then why not using it? The goal of
scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not. But if it does improve the
physical condition in some manner, well that's an extra.

I dont think you are being totally honest here. Scientology have quite
definite claims on the minds effect on the health of the body.
http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/sh6_4.htm
<quote>
The purpose of a Touch Assist is to reestablish communication with
injured or ill body parts. It brings the person�s attention to the
injured or affected body areas. This is done by repetitively touching
the ill or injured person�s body and putting him into communication with
the injury. His communication with it brings about recovery. The
technique is based on the principle that the way to heal anything or
remedy anything is to put somebody into communication with it.
<end quote>

Your question sounds like that you assume that I am a fixated individual.
Obviously I am not.

Not being inquisitive when meeting contradictory information is in my
oppinion problematic. Some see this as a "cult'ish" trade, also know as
"doublethink".
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=doublethink
<quote>
Thought marked by the acceptance of gross contradictions and falsehoods,
especially when used as a technique of self-indoctrination:
"Doublethink... is a vast system of mental cheating" (George Orwell).
<end quote>

Are illnesses psychosomatic or are they caused by biomechanical
disorders?

If it is both, then this calls for some research, to uncover the
relation between the two, dont you think?
Are Chiropractors or Scientologist researching this? Is it in the
interest of Scientology/Chiropractors or mainstream medicine
(physiology, psychology, psychiatry)?

Does it matter? Quite a few chiropractors were public at Flag as I recall.
Scientology is not about believing somethings, it is basically about using
something that changes conditions for the better. But in Scientology the
atention is given to the mind, not the body.

Exactly, they focus on the mind and not the body. Chiropractic focus on
the body and not the mind. Yet both claim to heal a wide range of bodily
ailments. Something is clearly amiss.
If a person has a pain in the abdomen. What should he do? Go to a
chiropractor, Scientology auditor, see a doctor, recieve acupuncture,
drink a lot of water, meditate, pray, take a walk, go to bed, take pain
killers, ... or all of them in no particular sequence until the pain is
gone?
Yeah, I think it does matter.
/Bent
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	21 Jan 2005 05:33:45 AM

"Bent Stigsen" <ngars@thevoid.dk> wrote in message
news:41f086d0$0$48640$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

Spacetraveler wrote:
[snip]

How can a Scientologist like you have high thoughts about Chiropractics
or Osteopathy, when their theories clearly contradict what Hubbard
said.

If I see that something works then why not using it? The goal of
scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not. But if it does improve

the

physical condition in some manner, well that's an extra.

I don't think that LRH wrote that, now did he? I believe the orginal HCOBs
about this were issued in 1987. I am not fully sure about if these in fact
were written by LRH (after 1980).
Anyhow there was an HCOB authorized by LRH issued 7 Feb 69 "The Body
Communication Process". It was cancelled by someone else, then reissued by
David Mayo in 1982. The issue does not say such things as that handbook. But
you may have a hard time to find the issue, CoS has abolished Mayo.
I do know however that David Mayo wrote some of these things already in an
HCOB late 60's. I have the issue somewhere, hard to come by, CoS abolished
Mayo.
You have to understand that I do not care much for Miscavige publications.

Your question sounds like that you assume that I am a fixated

individual.

Obviously I am not.

You didn't ask yourself if the handbook was written or compiled by LRH...

Does it matter? Quite a few chiropractors were public at Flag as I

recall.

Scientology is not about believing somethings, it is basically about

using

something that changes conditions for the better. But in Scientology the
atention is given to the mind, not the body.

Exactly, they focus on the mind and not the body. Chiropractic focus on
the body and not the mind. Yet both claim to heal a wide range of bodily
ailments. Something is clearly amiss.

If a person has a pain in the abdomen. What should he do? Go to a
chiropractor, Scientology auditor, see a doctor, recieve acupuncture,
drink a lot of water, meditate, pray, take a walk, go to bed, take pain
killers, ... or all of them in no particular sequence until the pain is
gone?

Yeah, I think it does matter.

I don't think you have understood the aim of Scientology.
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Bent Stigsen"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	22 Jan 2005 01:25:00 AM

Spacetraveler wrote:

"Bent Stigsen" <ngars@thevoid.dk> wrote in message
news:41f086d0$0$48640$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

Spacetraveler wrote:
[snip]

How can a Scientologist like you have high thoughts about Chiropractics
or Osteopathy, when their theories clearly contradict what Hubbard
said.

If I see that something works then why not using it? The goal of
scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not. But if it does improve the
physical condition in some manner, well that's an extra.

I don't think that LRH wrote that, now did he? I believe the orginal HCOBs
about this were issued in 1987. I am not fully sure about if these in fact
were written by LRH (after 1980).

It is from an official "Scientology" website. How does it differ from
what Hubbard would have written, or did write?

Anyhow there was an HCOB authorized by LRH issued 7 Feb 69 "The Body
Communication Process". It was cancelled by someone else, then reissued by
David Mayo in 1982. The issue does not say such things as that handbook. But
you may have a hard time to find the issue, CoS has abolished Mayo.

If it is important, wouldn't/shouldn't the members demand an explanation.

I do know however that David Mayo wrote some of these things already in an
HCOB late 60's. I have the issue somewhere, hard to come by, CoS abolished
Mayo.

You have to understand that I do not care much for Miscavige publications.

I can understand that, but from my point of view, it just looks like
your opinion, not Scientology's.

Your question sounds like that you assume that I am a fixated individual.
Obviously I am not.

You didn't ask yourself if the handbook was written or compiled by LRH...

You didn't ask yourself why it makes a big difference. Or perhaps you
did. (and that is partly my point)
[snip]

Exactly, they focus on the mind and not the body. Chiropractic focus on
the body and not the mind. Yet both claim to heal a wide range of bodily
ailments. Something is clearly amiss.

If a person has a pain in the abdomen. What should he do? Go to a
chiropractor, Scientology auditor, see a doctor, recieve acupuncture,
drink a lot of water, meditate, pray, take a walk, go to bed, take pain
killers, ... or all of them in no particular sequence until the pain is
gone?

Yeah, I think it does matter.

I don't think you have understood the aim of Scientology.

How is it relevant? Does the aim of Scientology make a difference to
John Doe and/or his doctor in choosing a plan of treatment for his illness.
I know there is more to Scientology, but that is not the point. As I
wrote to Claire, I see two theories with different "root causes" to some
illnesses.
When you allege there is something sinister to the criticism, like
previously in the thread:
<quote>

And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results?

Not always, but in this case I suspect it.

<end quote>
I would like to point out, that criticism or investigations are neither
in the interest of Scientology or Chiropractors, since it just might
invalidate some of their theories.
See also "Ball of Fluff"'s post and my response to her.
http://google.com/groups?selm=41f08c39%40news2.lightlink.com
/Bent
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	22 Jan 2005 06:24:07 AM

"Bent Stigsen" <ngars@thevoid.dk> wrote in message
news:41f1ffd8$0$48652$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

Spacetraveler wrote:

"Bent Stigsen" <ngars@thevoid.dk> wrote in message
news:41f086d0$0$48640$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...

Spacetraveler wrote:
[snip]

How can a Scientologist like you have high thoughts about

Chiropractics

or Osteopathy, when their theories clearly contradict what Hubbard
said.

If I see that something works then why not using it? The goal of
scientology is not fixing up the body, it is not. But if it does

improve the

physical condition in some manner, well that's an extra.

I don't think that LRH wrote that, now did he? I believe the orginal

HCOBs

about this were issued in 1987. I am not fully sure about if these in

fact

were written by LRH (after 1980).

It is from an official "Scientology" website. How does it differ from
what Hubbard would have written, or did write?

Because since LRH disappeared from the lines in 1980, very many changes have
been incorporated. Quite a few obviously and proven not following the rules
of LRH himself about how to revise things. Various processes which were long
since finalized by LRH have been seriously changed since 1980, which is
illogical. there is in fact a lot of information about this.
What someone else wrote may not be Scientology, but a incorrect
interpretation of what LRH wrote. Isn't that obvious?

Anyhow there was an HCOB authorized by LRH issued 7 Feb 69 "The Body
Communication Process". It was cancelled by someone else, then reissued

David Mayo in 1982. The issue does not say such things as that handbook.

But

you may have a hard time to find the issue, CoS has abolished Mayo.

If it is important, wouldn't/shouldn't the members demand an explanation.

Most staff and many public live in fear about upper scientology management.
After all my personal experiences I can conclusively state that this is a
fact! So, they don't question, they may think some things, but they will
not express it to anyone.

I do know however that David Mayo wrote some of these things already in

HCOB late 60's. I have the issue somewhere, hard to come by, CoS

abolished

Mayo.

You have to understand that I do not care much for Miscavige

publications.

I can understand that, but from my point of view, it just looks like
your opinion, not Scientology's.

Because you do not know too much about Scientology and LRH (source)
writings. I recall that you also had misconceptions about how courses are
put together. Find out how things are for yourself, but don't say that
something which is written in some Scientology publication somewhere is
always presenting LRH. Factually where is concerns Scientology you are a
newbee.

Your question sounds like that you assume that I am a fixated

individual.

Obviously I am not.

You didn't ask yourself if the handbook was written or compiled by

LRH...

You didn't ask yourself why it makes a big difference. Or perhaps you
did. (and that is partly my point)

I am only concerned about results, nothing else. All the rest is of minor
importance.

[snip]

Does it matter? Quite a few chiropractors were public at Flag as I

recall.

Scientology is not about believing somethings, it is basically about

using

something that changes conditions for the better. But in Scientology

the

atention is given to the mind, not the body.

Exactly, they focus on the mind and not the body. Chiropractic focus on
the body and not the mind. Yet both claim to heal a wide range of bodily
ailments. Something is clearly amiss.

If a person has a pain in the abdomen. What should he do? Go to a
chiropractor, Scientology auditor, see a doctor, recieve acupuncture,
drink a lot of water, meditate, pray, take a walk, go to bed, take pain
killers, ... or all of them in no particular sequence until the pain is
gone?

Yeah, I think it does matter.

I don't think you have understood the aim of Scientology.

How is it relevant? Does the aim of Scientology make a difference to
John Doe and/or his doctor in choosing a plan of treatment for his

illness.
Scientology is a practical philosophy, you should not forget that.

I know there is more to Scientology, but that is not the point. As I
wrote to Claire, I see two theories with different "root causes" to some
illnesses.

It's not different root causes, they support eachother I would think. Both
'treatments' may effect the condition positively. This is all that matters.

When you allege there is something sinister to the criticism, like
previously in the thread:
<quote>

And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results?

Not always, but in this case I suspect it.

<end quote>
I would like to point out, that criticism or investigations are neither
in the interest of Scientology or Chiropractors, since it just might
invalidate some of their theories.

How can you invalidate good results? This seems to be the prime intend of
this ARS snake pit. People dwell in theories and opinions, they are not
practical about 99% of the time.
Spacetraveler

See also "Ball of Fluff"'s post and my response to her.
http://google.com/groups?selm=41f08c39%40news2.lightlink.com

/Bent

User: "The Last Liberal / ShyDavid / Desertphile"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	17 Jan 2005 10:59:53 PM

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:29:56 -0800, "o�in" <o�in@ragnarok.com>
wrote:

Your authorities I assume? Do you know why it is criticized
and ridiculed like this? Because it has results. And because
it does not acquire drugs. Now, that's the short of it...

Chiropractic works just as well as homeopathy, phrenology, lucky
charms, astrology, faith healing, prayer, and Scientology
"auditing." Chiropractic is fraudulent quack "treatment" that is
no more valid than voodoo: its practitioners ought to be put in
prison where they belong, along with all the other medical
fraudsters.

If Chiropractic worked and was even 10% effective as it proponents
claim, it would not only be taught and practiced in universities--
it would in many such places be MANDATORY teaching. Physicians
would not be unanimous in their denunciation of the fraudulent
scam.
---
http://lastliberal.org
Guns don't kill people: Republicans kill people.
"1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they
have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and
suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *****." -- God's Family Values
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	17 Jan 2005 11:06:25 PM

"The Last Liberal / ShyDavid / Desertphile" <desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:353jecF4iac1uU1@individual.net...

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:29:56 -0800, "o�in" <o�in@ragnarok.com>
wrote:

Your authorities I assume? Do you know why it is criticized
and ridiculed like this? Because it has results. And because
it does not acquire drugs. Now, that's the short of it...

You are in error about a lot of things. One, two & eight definitely work.

In the above, "your authorities" should be "you're authorities", since

that

is the contraction of "You are". You did not actually mean "authorities

your possession", did you? And I bet that you meant "require" rather

than

"acquire". And do you really think that anything is "criticized and
ridiculed" by scientists because it has demonstrated results? Some
scientists make the foolish mistake of rejecting new ideas that conflict
with their cherished dogma, but I do not think they often reject an idea
purely due to the fact that they observe that it works! It would do your
argument more good to just stay quiet.

Damn you know little about how things work on this planet. Money rules,
money is power, it's all about that.
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Fredric L. Rice"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 01:10:14 AM

"Spacetraveler" <spacetraveler@hotmail.com> wrote:

"The Last Liberal / ShyDavid / Desertphile" <desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:353jecF4iac1uU1@individual.net...

You are in error about a lot of things. One, two & eight definitely work.

Doing nothing works just as well as "one, twp, and eight." That's
the nature of placebo and the fact that the human body very often
heals all on its own without pretend magic occultism being applied.
'Course with Scientology the result is at times death.
---
Stop Elmer Fudd web site: http://www.ElmerFudd.US/
Covert text file server: http://www.notserver.com/
Scientology crooks: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 02:26:08 AM

"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:10urnaoo6ipf983@corp.supernews.com...

"Spacetraveler" <spacetraveler@hotmail.com> wrote:

"The Last Liberal / ShyDavid / Desertphile" <desertphile@hotmail.com>

wrote

in message news:353jecF4iac1uU1@individual.net...

You are in error about a lot of things. One, two & eight definitely work.

Yeah, of course... and psychiatry heals people... and if you are sick the
best cure is to take a drug addressing the symptom (this is what doctors
seem to be all about these days). Great health system we have...
The problem is that there is independent research which tell another story.
And then YOU don't tell people what is good for them. So, let them find out
for themselves, I think this is what you fear most of all. You don't want
them even trying.
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 01:02:34 PM

Spacetraveler wrote:

The problem is that there is independent research which tell another
story. And then YOU don't tell people what is good for them. So, let
them find out for themselves, I think this is what you fear most of
all. You don't want them even trying.

Please post this indepernant research showing "another story"
Then read a little history about what happens when people try to find cures
without science.
Radioactive cures are a good place to start.
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 01:08:06 PM

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:e9yHd.12502$wZ2.4539@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

Spacetraveler wrote:

Please post this indepernant research showing "another story"

I have seen various already years ago, try an internet search.

Then read a little history about what happens when people try to find

cures

without science.
Radioactive cures are a good place to start.

I never said to be unscientific about it, now did I?
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Happy Dog"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 02:09:57 PM

"Spacetraveler" <spacetraveler@hotmail.com> wrote in message

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

Please post this indepernant research showing "another story"

I have seen various already years ago, try an internet search.

You made the claim. But nobody is able to validate it. You say you've seen
"the research". Show us where it is. It isn't up to us to do your
homework.

Then read a little history about what happens when people try to find

cures without science.

Radioactive cures are a good place to start.

I never said to be unscientific about it, now did I?

You are defending an unscientific practice.
moo
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 04:29:26 PM

"Happy Dog" <happydog@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:q8zHd.48449$W33.1112886@news20.bellglobal.com...

"Spacetraveler" <spacetraveler@hotmail.com> wrote in message

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

Please post this indepernant research showing "another story"

I have seen various already years ago, try an internet search.

You made the claim. But nobody is able to validate it. You say you've

seen

"the research". Show us where it is. It isn't up to us to do your
homework.

Go to a chiropractor association, they will direct you.

Then read a little history about what happens when people try to find

cures without science.

Radioactive cures are a good place to start.

I never said to be unscientific about it, now did I?

You are defending an unscientific practice.

Now evolution theories are unscientific, still they call it science. The
results of evolutional thinking are desastrous as can be seen in our society
and statistics. Chiropractic has good results, but is addressed by some
being unscientific. What is this world we are living in?
I do not intend to prove something. But there is other data. People tend to
overlook things when their mind is made up.
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Happy Dog"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 08:22:22 PM

"Spacetraveler" <spacetraveler@hotmail.com>

I have seen various already years ago, try an internet search.

You made the claim. But nobody is able to validate it. You say you've

seen "the research". Show us where it is. It isn't up to us to do your

homework.

Go to a chiropractor association, they will direct you.

To the "research" that validates the mechanism they claim causes dis-ease
and Subluxations(tm)? The studies that would be of huge interest to
professionals and grad students in a number of scientific disciplines? The
studies that aren't published in any mainstream journal? Those studies?

You are defending an unscientific practice.

Now evolution theories are unscientific, still they call it science. The
results of evolutional thinking are desastrous as can be seen in our
society
and statistics.

What on earth are you talking about?

Chiropractic has good results, but is addressed by some
being unscientific. What is this world we are living in?

It is unscientific because it doesn't follow the rules used in scientific
investigation. OK?

I do not intend to prove something. But there is other data. People tend
to
overlook things when their mind is made up.

Like YECs?
moo
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	19 Jan 2005 10:50:41 PM

"Happy Dog" <happydog@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:zBEHd.50325$W33.1234649@news20.bellglobal.com...

"Spacetraveler" <spacetraveler@hotmail.com>

I have seen various already years ago, try an internet search.

You made the claim. But nobody is able to validate it. You say you've

seen "the research". Show us where it is. It isn't up to us to do your

homework.

Go to a chiropractor association, they will direct you.

The

studies that aren't published in any mainstream journal? Those studies?

Whatever... not published in mainstream journals? Who cares about that?
Data is data. Science is not only science because some authorities submitted
to something.

You are defending an unscientific practice.

Now evolution theories are unscientific, still they call it science. The
results of evolutional thinking are desastrous as can be seen in our
society
and statistics.

What on earth are you talking about?

See my respons to Bengt Stigsen.

Chiropractic has good results, but is addressed by some
being unscientific. What is this world we are living in?

It is unscientific because it doesn't follow the rules used in scientific
investigation. OK?

That is not necessarily scientific by definition. I don't care much for
'rules', I care for pure logic.

I do not intend to prove something. But there is other data. People tend
to
overlook things when their mind is made up.

Like YECs?

Hmmm, YEC, Young Earth Creationists?
Well, yes, however don't forget that there are at least as many
evolutionists whose mind is also already made up!
Spacetraveler
.

User: "Spacetraveler"
Title: Re: Chiropractic as useless as Scientology	20 Jan 2005 08:48:55 AM

"Happy Dog" <happydog@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:_yIHd.51163$W33.1340399@news20.bellglobal.com...

"Spacetraveler" <spacetraveler@hotmail.com> wrote in message

To the "research" that validates the mechanism they claim causes

dis-ease

and Subluxations(tm)? The studies that would be of huge interest to
professionals and grad students in a number of scientific disciplines?

The studies that aren't published in any mainstream journal? Those
studies?

Whatever... not published in mainstream journals? Who cares about that?
Data is data. Science is not only science because some authorities
submitted
to something.

You, obviously, are unaware of the scientific process. Discoveries and
studies are published so that others can try to replicate the work.

That's

how it moves forward. The appalling lack of published studies in
chiropractic and the fact that it, basically, remains unchanged after more
than a century show it to be an unscientific entity.

You have to research how this actually works, and who submitted all these
rules, and why. You have not done your research.
You don't see how some can control and manipulate the thinking of
populations because of these mediums. You obviously rely on accepted
authorities. History tells us that the ruler is not always right about
things, he just sees to it that oppostion is ruled out.
May be you will wake up someday...
Spacetraveler
.

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