Religions > Atheism > Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Dan Clore" |
| Date: |
11 Apr 2005 12:42:13 PM |
| Object: |
Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in
their own image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look
back on what they accomplished in last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast
sanctuary of Coral Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state
flags dangling from the rafters, three stadium-size video
screens flash the name of the conference: reclaiming america
for christ. These are the evangelical activists behind the
nation's most effective political machine -- one that
brought more than 4 million new Christian voters to the
polls last November, sending George W. Bush back to the
White House and thirty-two new pro-lifers to Congress. But
despite their unprecedented power, fundamentalists still see
themselves as a persecuted minority, waging a holy war
against the godless forces of secularism. To rouse
themselves, they kick off the festivities with "Soldiers of
the Cross, Arise," the bloodthirstiest tune in all of
Christendom: "Seize your armor, gird it on/Now the battle
will be won/Soon, your enemies all slain/Crowns of glory you
shall gain."
Meet the Dominionists -- biblical literalists who believe
God has called them to take over the U.S. government. As the
far-right wing of the evangelical movement, Dominionists are
pressing an agenda that makes Newt Gingrich's Contract With
America look like the Communist Manifesto. They want to
rewrite schoolbooks to reflect a Christian version of
American history, pack the nation's courts with judges who
follow Old Testament law, post the Ten Commandments in every
courthouse and make it a felony for gay men to have sex and
women to have abortions. In Florida, when the courts ordered
Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed, it was the
Dominionists who organized round-the-clock protests and
issued a fiery call for Gov. Jeb Bush to defy the law and
take Schiavo into state custody. Their ultimate goal is to
plant the seeds of a "faith-based" government that will
endure far longer than Bush's presidency -- all the way
until Jesus comes back.
"Most people hear them talk about a 'Christian nation' and
think, 'Well, that sounds like a good, moral thing,' says
the Rev. Mel White, who ghostwrote Jerry Falwell's
autobiography before breaking with the evangelical movement.
"What they don't know -- what even most conservative
Christians who voted for Bush don't know -- is that
'Christian nation' means something else entirely to these
Dominionist leaders. This movement is no more about
following the example of Christ than Bush's Clean Water Act
is about clean water."
The godfather of the Dominionists is D. James Kennedy, the
most influential evangelical you've never heard of. A former
Arthur Murray dance instructor, he launched his Florida
ministry in 1959, when most evangelicals still followed
Billy Graham's gospel of nonpartisan soul-saving. Kennedy
built Coral Ridge Ministries into a $37-million-a-year
empire, with a TV-and-radio audience of 3 million, by
preaching that it was time to save America -- not soul by
soul but election by election. After helping found the Moral
Majority in 1979, Kennedy became a five-star general in the
Christian army. Bush sought his blessing before running for
president -- and continues to consult top Dominionists on
matters of federal policy.
"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the
cost," Kennedy says. "As the vice regents of God, we are to
exercise godly dominion and influence over our
neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature
and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our
news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every
aspect and institution of human society."
At Reclaiming America, most of the conference is taken up by
grassroots training sessions that supply ministers, retirees
and devout churchgoers with "The Facts of Stem-Cell
Research" or "Practical Steps to Impact Your Community with
America's Historical Judeo-Christian Heritage." "We're going
to turn you into an army of one," Gary Cass, executive
director of Reclaiming America, promises activists at one
workshop held in Evangalism Explosion Hall. The Dominionists
also attend speeches by supporters like Rep. Katherine
Harris of Florida, who urges them to "win back America for
God." In their spare time, conference-goers buy books about
a God-devised health program called the Maker's Diet or meet
with a financial adviser who offers a "biblically sound
investment plan."
To implement their sweeping agenda, the Dominionists are
working to remake the federal courts in God's image. In
their view, the Founding Fathers never intended to erect a
barrier between politics and religion. "The First Amendment
does not say there should be a separation of church and
state," declares Alan Sears, president and CEO of the
Alliance Defense Fund, a team of 750 attorneys trained by
the Dominionists to fight abortion and gay marriage. Sears
argues that the constitutional guarantee against
state-sponsored religion is actually designed to "shield"
the church from federal interference -- allowing Christians
to take their rightful place at the head of the government.
"We have a right, indeed an obligation, to govern," says
David Limbaugh, brother of Rush and author of Persecution:
How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity. Nothing
gets the Dominionists to their feet faster than ringing
condemnations of judicial tyranny. "Activist judges have
systematically deconstructed the Constitution," roars Rick
Scarborough, author of Mixing Church and State. "A God-free
society is their goal!"
Activist judges, of course, are precisely what the
Dominionists want. Their model is Roy Moore, the former
Alabama chief justice who installed a 5,300-pound granite
memorial to the Ten Commandments, complete with an open
Bible carved in its top, in the state judicial building. At
Reclaiming America, Roy's Rock sits out front, fresh off a
tour of twenty-one states, perched on the flag-festooned
flatbed of a diesel truck, a potent symbol of the
"faith-based" justice the Dominionists are bent on imposing.
Activists at the conference pose for photographs beside the
rock and have circulated a petition urging President Bush to
appoint Moore -- who once penned an opinion calling for the
state to execute "practicing homosexuals" -- to the U.S.
Supreme Court.
"The other side knows we've got strongholds in the executive
and legislative branches," Cass tells the troops. "If we
start winning the judiciary, their power base is going to be
eroded."
To pack the courts with fundamentalists like Moore,
Dominionist leaders are planning a massive media blitz.
They're also pressuring Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist --
an ally who's courting support for his presidential bid --
to halt the long-standing use of filibusters to hold up
judicial nominations. An anti-filibuster petition
circulating at the conference blasts Democrats for their
"outrageous stonewalling of appointments" -- even though
Congress has approved more nominees of Bush than of any
president since Jimmy Carter.
It helps that Dominionists have a direct line to the White
House: The Rev. Richard Land, top lobbyist for the
16-million-member Southern Baptist Convention, enjoys a
weekly conference call with top Bush advisers including Karl
Rove. "We've got the Holy Spirit's wind at our backs!" Land
declares in an arm-waving, red-faced speech. He takes
particular aim at the threat posed by John Lennon,
denouncing "Imagine" as a "secular anthem" that envisions a
future of "clone plantations, child sacrifice, legalized
polygamy and hard-core porn."
The Dominionists are also stepping up efforts to turn public
schools into forums for evangelism. In a landmark case, the
Alliance Defense Fund is suing a California school district
that threatened to dismiss a born-again teacher who was
evangelizing fifth-graders. In the conference's opening
ceremony, the Dominionists recite an oath they dream of
hearing in every classroom: "I pledge allegiance to the
Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose kingdom it
stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with
life and liberty for all who believe."
Cass urges conference-goers to stack school boards with
Dominionists. "The most humble Christian is more qualified
for office than the best-educated pagan," says Cass, an
anti-abortion activist who led a takeover of his school
district's board in San Diego. "We built quite a little
grass-roots machine out there. Now it's my burden to
multiply that success all across America."
Cass points to the Rev. Gary Beeler, a Baptist minister from
Tennessee who got permission for thousands of students to
skip class and attend weeklong events that he calls
"old-time revivals, with preaching and singing and
soul-saving and the whole nine yards." Now, with support
from Kennedy, Beeler is selling his house and buying a
mobile home to spread his crusade nationwide. "It's not
exactly what I planned to do with my retirement," he says.
"But it's what God told me to do."
Cass also presents another small-town activist, Kevin McCoy,
with a Salt and Light Award for leading a successful
campaign to shut down an anti-bullying program in West
Virginia schools. McCoy, a soft-spoken, prematurely gray
postal worker, fought to end the program because it taught
tolerance for gay people -- and thus, in his view,
constituted a "thinly disguised effort to promote the
homosexual agenda." "What America needs," Cass tells the
faithful, "is more Kevin McCoys."
While the dominionists rely on grass-roots activists to
fight their battles, they are backed by some of America's
richest entrepreneurs. Amway founder Rich DeVos, a Kennedy
ally who's the leading Republican contender for governor of
Michigan, has tossed more than $5 million into the
collection plate. Jean Case, wife of former AOL chief Steve
Case -- whose fortune was made largely on sex-chat rooms --
has donated $8 million. And Tom Monaghan, founder of
Domino's Pizza, is a major source of cash for Focus on the
Family, a megaministry working with Kennedy to eliminate all
public schools.
The one-two punch of militant activists and big money has
helped make the Dominionists a force in Washington, where a
growing number of congressmen owe their elections to the
machine. Kennedy has also created the Center for Christian
Statesmanship, which trains elected officials to "more
effectively share their faith in the public arena." Speaking
to the group, House Majority Whip Tom DeLay -- a winner of
Kennedy's Distinguished Christian Statesman Award -- called
Bush's faith-based initiatives "a great opportunity to bring
God back into the public institutions of our country."
The most vivid proof of the Christianizing of Capitol Hill
comes at the final session of Reclaiming America. Rep.
Walter Jones, a lanky congressman from North Carolina, gives
a fire-and-brimstone speech that would have gotten him
laughed out of Washington thirty years ago. In today's
climate, however, he's got a chance of passing his pet
project, the Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act,
which would permit ministers to endorse political candidates
from their pulpits, effectively converting their tax-exempt
churches into Republican campaign headquarters.
"America is under assault!" Jones thunders as his aides dash
around the sanctuary snapping PR photos. "Everyone in
America has the right to speak freely, except for those
standing in the pulpits of our churches!" The amen chorus
reaches a fever pitch. Hands fly heavenward. It's one thing
to hear such words from Dominionist leaders -- but to this
crowd, there's nothing more thrilling than getting the
gospel from a U.S. congressman. "You cannot have a strong
nation that does not follow God," Jones preaches, working up
to a climactic, passionate plea for a biblical republic.
"God, please -- God, please -- God, please -- save America!"
(Posted Apr 07, 2005)
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
.
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 01:48:17 PM |
|
|
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we have...?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 02:07:35 PM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dan Clore" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 02:56:00 PM |
|
|
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 03:18:34 PM |
|
|
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own
image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of
Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their
vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
You guys are paranoid, free speech is free speech whether it is religious,
sexual or sceintific.
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its only
one of two possible ideas.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 04:07:50 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own
image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they
accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of
Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their
vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
You guys are paranoid, free speech is free speech whether it is religious,
sexual or sceintific.
What the hell are you talking about? Under the theocracy they intend, there
will be no free speech.
Period.
And since you didn't defend your previous position, do you now agree that
they intend an overthrow of the government?
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 06:13:08 PM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:i_ydnRRewfH_e8ffRVn-rA@texas.net...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own
image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they
accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of
Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their
vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
You guys are paranoid, free speech is free speech whether it is
religious,
sexual or sceintific.
What the hell are you talking about? Under the theocracy they intend,
there
will be no free speech.
Period.
And since you didn't defend your previous position, do you now agree that
they intend an overthrow of the government?
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its
only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
If you propose by chance when everything looks designed and we know what
design looks like, you are misguided by your atheistic materilistic
ideology.
As far as the other stuff, you are paranoid, no one will take away free
speech. More christians would rally against this then any other group.
Dominonists are a small fringe minority of all christians.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 07:29:51 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115m19s414c4hb0@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:i_ydnRRewfH_e8ffRVn-rA@texas.net...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own
image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they
accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of
Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their
vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that,
right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
You guys are paranoid, free speech is free speech whether it is
religious,
sexual or sceintific.
What the hell are you talking about? Under the theocracy they intend,
there
will be no free speech.
Period.
And since you didn't defend your previous position, do you now agree that
they intend an overthrow of the government?
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either
by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its
only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
If you propose by chance when everything looks designed and we know what
design looks like,
"Looks" is not good enough. "Looks" is completely subjective. Demonstrate to
me that is IS designed, or shut up.
you are misguided by your atheistic materilistic
ideology.
Finding a watch on the beach and crowing that it's designed means the beach
ISN'T.
As far as the other stuff, you are paranoid, no one will take away free
speech.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No, seriously, you're really funny!
Of COURSE our free speech can be taken away.
More christians would rally against this then any other group.
They wouldn't even realize there's a problem.
Dominonists are a small fringe minority of all christians.
Who just happen, by chance, to be dangerously influential?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 07:45:29 PM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:doWdnbV3vY4miMbfRVn-tA@texas.net...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115m19s414c4hb0@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:i_ydnRRewfH_e8ffRVn-rA@texas.net...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their
own
image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they
accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary
of
Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the
conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use
their
vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that,
right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
You guys are paranoid, free speech is free speech whether it is
religious,
sexual or sceintific.
What the hell are you talking about? Under the theocracy they intend,
there
will be no free speech.
Period.
And since you didn't defend your previous position, do you now agree
that
they intend an overthrow of the government?
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either
by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its
only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
If you propose by chance when everything looks designed and we know what
design looks like,
"Looks" is not good enough. "Looks" is completely subjective. Demonstrate
to
me that is IS designed, or shut up.
you are misguided by your atheistic materilistic
ideology.
Finding a watch on the beach and crowing that it's designed means the
beach
ISN'T.
From the atom and the laws of mathmetics it follows to the genetic code,
everything looks designed. Looks, means it is self evident to all but those
that have philosophical reasons not sceintific ones for avoiding the
obvious.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 08:09:33 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in
news:115m6n0cuems2ef@corp.supernews.com:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:doWdnbV3vY4miMbfRVn-tA@texas.net...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115m19s414c4hb0@corp.supernews.com...
(snip)
"Looks" is not good enough. "Looks" is completely subjective.
Demonstrate
to
me that is IS designed, or shut up.
you are misguided by your atheistic materilistic
ideology.
Finding a watch on the beach and crowing that it's designed means the
beach
ISN'T.
From the atom and the laws of mathmetics it follows to the genetic
code,
everything looks designed. Looks, means it is self evident to all but
those that have philosophical reasons not sceintific ones for avoiding
the obvious.
Isn't it funny how many scientists don't support this "self-evident"
design?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 09:04:37 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115m6n0cuems2ef@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:doWdnbV3vY4miMbfRVn-tA@texas.net...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115m19s414c4hb0@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:i_ydnRRewfH_e8ffRVn-rA@texas.net...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their
own
image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they
accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary
of
Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the
conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and
we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use
their
vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that,
right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
You guys are paranoid, free speech is free speech whether it is
religious,
sexual or sceintific.
What the hell are you talking about? Under the theocracy they intend,
there
will be no free speech.
Period.
And since you didn't defend your previous position, do you now agree
that
they intend an overthrow of the government?
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins,
either
by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when
its
only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
If you propose by chance when everything looks designed and we know
what
design looks like,
"Looks" is not good enough. "Looks" is completely subjective. Demonstrate
to
me that is IS designed, or shut up.
you are misguided by your atheistic materilistic
ideology.
Finding a watch on the beach and crowing that it's designed means the
beach
ISN'T.
From the atom and the laws of mathmetics it follows to the genetic code,
everything looks designed.
Nonsense. See below.
Looks, means it is self evident to all but those
that have philosophical reasons not sceintific ones for avoiding the
obvious.
If design in everything was so obvious, there would be no need for the WORD
design. A word exists to differentiate something from something else or its
useless. If everything is designed, then there's nothing to differentiate,
and no need for the word design.
In your view, the beach is MADE of watches. What made you pick one out and
wonder about it? Could it be the fact that it's NOT obvious what's designed
and what's not?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "grandpa helicopter" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 08:22:53 PM |
|
|
Randy Story wrote:
From the atom and the laws of mathmetics it follows to the genetic
code,
everything looks designed. Looks, means it is self evident to all but
those
that have philosophical reasons not sceintific ones for avoiding the
obvious.
Well, looks can be deceiving.
There is no proof that having a common ancestor, or sharing common
genetic information requires a deity.
There is no evidence things are designed by and have a purpose for a
creator.
Grandpa h.
.
|
|
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|
| User: "Tian Harter" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 03:35:50 AM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
How about you make "something" up, and I'll make "something else"
up. Then at least there will be two other possibilities for people
to pick from?
--
Tian
Friday in Palo Alto we had a fossil fools action at the Ford
Dealership. Check out my pictures of the event by clicking
on the picture of Orange cheerleaders at the top of this page:
http://tian.greens.org
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 02:46:05 PM |
|
|
"Tian Harter" <DontBeFuelish@aol.com62846832> wrote in message
news:d3g1bt$geb$2@domitilla.aioe.org...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its
only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
How about you make "something" up, and I'll make "something else"
up. Then at least there will be two other possibilities for people
to pick from?
You can do that if you like. I prefer to say "I don't know, we need more
data" and not make anything up.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tian Harter" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
13 Apr 2005 01:20:08 AM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Tian Harter" <DontBeFuelish@aol.com62846832> wrote in message
news:d3g1bt$geb$2@domitilla.aioe.org...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its
only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
How about you make "something" up, and I'll make "something else"
up. Then at least there will be two other possibilities for people
to pick from?
You can do that if you like. I prefer to say "I don't know, we need more
data" and not make anything up.
I'm like, as long as it's a story worth reading, who cares how based
in reality it is?
--
Tian
Friday in Palo Alto we had a fossil fools action at the Ford
Dealership. Check out my pictures of the event by clicking
on the picture of Orange cheerleaders at the top of this page:
http://tian.greens.org
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
14 Apr 2005 10:18:44 AM |
|
|
"Tian Harter" <DontBeFuelish@aol.com62846832> wrote in message
news:d3idpi$7a7$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Tian Harter" <DontBeFuelish@aol.com62846832> wrote in message
news:d3g1bt$geb$2@domitilla.aioe.org...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115ln2i2tt1j14a@corp.supernews.com...
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either
by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its
only
one of two possible ideas.
It's a fairy tale when there's no evidence to support it.
Without evidence, all we can say is that it happened. If we propose a
designer without evidence, then we're just making something up.
How about you make "something" up, and I'll make "something else"
up. Then at least there will be two other possibilities for people
to pick from?
You can do that if you like. I prefer to say "I don't know, we need more
data" and not make anything up.
I'm like, as long as it's a story worth reading, who cares how based
in reality it is?
How many other subjects respond well to this kind of reasoning?
I'm sure the used car salesman has some GREAT reading for you.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tian Harter" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 03:32:59 AM |
|
|
Randy Story wrote:
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own
image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian
fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of
Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their
vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend
to do far more than simply vote, or run for office. They
intend to convert the country into a totalitarian theocracy,
replacing the Constitutional separation of church and state
with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning
science education, banning any allusion to sex in the media
as hardcore pornography, criminalizing contraception as a
form of murder, the death penalty for homosexuals, and on
and on.
--
Dan Clore
You guys are paranoid, free speech is free speech whether it is religious,
sexual or sceintific.
By the way there there are only two possible ideas of origins, either by
design or by chance, thats it. By design is not a fairy tale when its only
one of two possible ideas.
Ummm... What if they started with chance, and ever since then
it's been darwinian selection, which basically means the best
design wins often enough?
--
Tian
Friday in Palo Alto we had a fossil fools action at the Ford
Dealership. Check out my pictures of the event by clicking
on the picture of Orange cheerleaders at the top of this page:
http://tian.greens.org
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tani Jantsang ©" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
14 Apr 2005 08:21:39 PM |
|
|
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3c032jF6lhpa3U1@individual.net...
Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
I suggest reading through the original article. They intend to do far more
than simply vote, or run for office. They intend to convert the country
into a totalitarian theocracy, replacing the Constitutional separation of
church and state with mandatory fundamentalist Christianity, teaching
superstitions like creationism in schools and banning science education,
banning any allusion to sex in the media as hardcore pornography,
criminalizing contraception as a form of murder, the death penalty for
homosexuals, and on and on.
Indeed, they've been up to that for a long time - but nobody believed it,
nobody listened. They are using the same, identical and workable tactics
that the Left Liberals used - which, imo, were in some ways also draconian
tyranny that ruined lives, schools and cities. It's not surprising (should
be expected) that such would flock to the ranks of the opposition/reaction
now that they can.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "towelie" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 02:34:00 PM |
|
|
TV's Randy Story wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:BpydnSxwSIkwWMffRVn-vg@texas.net...
"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3bvr7lF6j22uvU1@individual.net...
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Rolling Stone
The Crusaders
Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own image
By BOB MOSER
It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian fundamentalists
have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished
in
last year's election --
and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of Coral
Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the
rafters,
three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference:
reclaiming america for christ.
This is fuckin' terrifying.
They have this vast conspiracy to overthrow the government, and we
have...?
They ar not trying to overthrow anything. They will simply use their vote
just as you do. I know, they should not be able to do that, right!!!!
No, they're trying to overthrow the goverment by deception.
Case in point:
""Most people hear them talk about a 'Christian nation' and
think, 'Well, that sounds like a good, moral thing,' says
the Rev. Mel White, who ghostwrote Jerry Falwell's
autobiography before breaking with the evangelical movement.
"What they don't know -- what even most conservative
Christians who voted for Bush don't know -- is that
'Christian nation' means something else entirely to these
Dominionist leaders. This movement is no more about
following the example of Christ than Bush's Clean Water Act
is about clean water.""
--
Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning.
A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing.
- Maynard James Keenan
The belief in the Christian god... is an appalling nightmare. I reject
the notion that the whole universe was created by this kind of evil
creature who would create such a thing. - Anthony Flew, March 22, 2005
aa #2133
ap #19
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "JohnnyCJohnny" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 03:16:11 PM |
|
|
True, the religious freaks are doing it the old fashion way, via
democratic means. Hitler gained power democratically too, and he was a
really bad fella. They have the right to show up at the polls, it's
time that secular America matched them at the polls and told them to
take a hike out of our lives. They can do whatever they want with
their family and lives, but why tell everyone else how to live?
I do agree with Dan, that this apparently concerted effort by the
Religious Right to extend their power within the federal government
even further, and to really implement some of their more radical ideas
(yes, they are radical to many Americans who aren't terribly
religious), is rather disturbing. I know the secularist amongst us
have always been alarmed by the religious right. For years, we were
able to just laugh them off as kooks and a fringe element who weren't
in control of anything. But, that's not the case anymore. Their
numbers have grown tremendously. They are in power in many states.
Many legislators and governors are controlled by this determined group.
The federal Congress is especially controlled by religious rightists
since the Republicans took over ten years ago.
Now, it's not a matter of laughing them off and going on with life.
They're here and they like the taste of power, and they apparently are
organizing to extend and expand their influence into our government and
lives. Perhaps finally mainstream Americans will wake up and send
these guys packing.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 03:23:20 PM |
|
|
"JohnnyCJohnny" <johnwc@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:1113250571.931155.260230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
True, the religious freaks are doing it the old fashion way, via
democratic means. Hitler gained power democratically too, and he was a
really bad fella. They have the right to show up at the polls, it's
time that secular America matched them at the polls and told them to
take a hike out of our lives. They can do whatever they want with
their family and lives, but why tell everyone else how to live?
I do agree with Dan, that this apparently concerted effort by the
Religious Right to extend their power within the federal government
even further, and to really implement some of their more radical ideas
(yes, they are radical to many Americans who aren't terribly
religious), is rather disturbing. I know the secularist amongst us
have always been alarmed by the religious right. For years, we were
able to just laugh them off as kooks and a fringe element who weren't
in control of anything. But, that's not the case anymore. Their
numbers have grown tremendously. They are in power in many states.
Many legislators and governors are controlled by this determined group.
The federal Congress is especially controlled by religious rightists
since the Republicans took over ten years ago.
Now, it's not a matter of laughing them off and going on with life.
They're here and they like the taste of power, and they apparently are
organizing to extend and expand their influence into our government and
lives. Perhaps finally mainstream Americans will wake up and send
these guys packing.
As long as they do it legally & within constitutional guidelines, it should
be acceptable to all. If atheists had the majority and filled the political
seats I might not like it but I would surely accept it and live by the laws
imposed under constitutional guidelines
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
11 Apr 2005 04:13:12 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115lnbg4cbuuh59@corp.supernews.com...
"JohnnyCJohnny" <johnwc@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:1113250571.931155.260230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
True, the religious freaks are doing it the old fashion way, via
democratic means. Hitler gained power democratically too, and he was a
really bad fella. They have the right to show up at the polls, it's
time that secular America matched them at the polls and told them to
take a hike out of our lives. They can do whatever they want with
their family and lives, but why tell everyone else how to live?
I do agree with Dan, that this apparently concerted effort by the
Religious Right to extend their power within the federal government
even further, and to really implement some of their more radical ideas
(yes, they are radical to many Americans who aren't terribly
religious), is rather disturbing. I know the secularist amongst us
have always been alarmed by the religious right. For years, we were
able to just laugh them off as kooks and a fringe element who weren't
in control of anything. But, that's not the case anymore. Their
numbers have grown tremendously. They are in power in many states.
Many legislators and governors are controlled by this determined group.
The federal Congress is especially controlled by religious rightists
since the Republicans took over ten years ago.
Now, it's not a matter of laughing them off and going on with life.
They're here and they like the taste of power, and they apparently are
organizing to extend and expand their influence into our government and
lives. Perhaps finally mainstream Americans will wake up and send
these guys packing.
As long as they do it legally & within constitutional guidelines, it
should
be acceptable to all. If atheists had the majority and filled the
political
seats I might not like it but I would surely accept it and live by the
laws
imposed under constitutional guidelines
We would have no reason not to hold to the constitution. You'd have
religious freedom.
Not so under the theocracy proposed by these dominionist bozos.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "JohnnyCJohnny" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 08:40:22 AM |
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I agree. As long as they assume power constitutionally and legally,
then I'm fine with it. I have to live by the decision of our people.
We do live in a democracy. I'm on the same page with you there.
It would be nice if Congress followed the Constitution next time they
took us to war. The attack on Iraq in 2003 was unconstitutional.
There should have been a declaration of war by the Congress to bring us
to war.
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| User: "blazing laser none" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 11:28:05 AM |
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On 12 Apr 2005 06:40:22 -0700, "JohnnyCJohnny" <johnwc@patmedia.net>
wrote:
It would be nice if Congress followed the Constitution next time they
took us to war. The attack on Iraq in 2003 was unconstitutional.
There should have been a declaration of war by the Congress to bring us
to war.
We haven't had a 'constitutional' war since WWII. I agree, the Const.
makes it clear that only Congress has the right to declare war, but
you can't be too harsh on Bush if every other president since Truman
has done it. (Though Bush shows particular disdain for the
Constitution generally).
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| User: "JohnnyCJohnny" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 12:23:53 PM |
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I know they have all played this game since the Truman days. Of
course, those other conflicts were limited wars (or so they said) and
had international backing. This attack on Iraq 2003 was an offensive
war with little international support. This was exactly why the
founders wanted the power to declare war and take the nation to war to
rest with the Congress, so a power-happy executive wouldn't misuse our
military.
Crazy that they'd play games with something as important as going to
war. But, it is unconstitutional. It really demonstrates the lack of
respect for the Constitutional and "rule of law" that our so-called
leaders have.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 01:30:02 PM |
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"JohnnyCJohnny" <johnwc@patmedia.net> wrote in
news:1113326633.776785.140250@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
I know they have all played this game since the Truman days. Of
course, those other conflicts were limited wars (or so they said) and
had international backing. This attack on Iraq 2003 was an offensive
war with little international support. This was exactly why the
founders wanted the power to declare war and take the nation to war to
rest with the Congress, so a power-happy executive wouldn't misuse our
military.
Bush *did* get authorization from the Congress.
Crazy that they'd play games with something as important as going to
war. But, it is unconstitutional. It really demonstrates the lack of
respect for the Constitutional and "rule of law" that our so-called
leaders have.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
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| User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 03:18:08 PM |
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On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:30:02 GMT, Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com>
wrote:
I know they have all played this game since the Truman days. Of
course, those other conflicts were limited wars (or so they said) and
had international backing. This attack on Iraq 2003 was an offensive
war with little international support. This was exactly why the
founders wanted the power to declare war and take the nation to war to
rest with the Congress, so a power-happy executive wouldn't misuse our
military.
Bush *did* get authorization from the Congress.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:S.J.RES.23:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.J.RES.114:
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
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| User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
12 Apr 2005 12:42:58 PM |
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On 12 Apr 2005 10:23:53 -0700, "JohnnyCJohnny" <johnwc@patmedia.net>
wrote:
Crazy that they'd play games with something as important as going to
war. But, it is unconstitutional. It really demonstrates the lack of
respect for the Constitutional and "rule of law" that our so-called
leaders have.
You win today's "Big Mistake" award today, presented to the person who
makes the most mistaked in one sentence.
1) The war against Iraq was declared by Congress in accordance with
the Constitution.
2) The Constitution was suspended by America's first fascist tyrant,
A. Lincoln, and has never been restored.
3) There is no "rule of law" in America because America is a fascist
dictatorship.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
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| User: "JohnnyCJohnny" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
13 Apr 2005 07:27:35 AM |
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Well I more or less agree with points 2 and 3, but on point 1 that is
not true. Congress did authorize the war (more like authorizing
funding), but there WAS NOT an official Declaration of War by the U.S.
Congress against Iraq prior to our invasion in 2003. The U.S.
Constitution explicitly talks about the power to declare war, not
authorize. The fact that point 1 was not followed, indlicates how true
points 2 and 3 are.
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| User: "blazing laser none" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
13 Apr 2005 11:40:49 AM |
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On 12 Apr 2005 10:23:53 -0700, "JohnnyCJohnny" <johnwc@patmedia.net>
wrote:
I know they have all played this game since the Truman days.
Actually it's been longer than that. I'm just saying -every-
president since Truman has done it.
Of course, those other conflicts were limited wars (or so they said)
and had international backing.
Korea was a 'police action'. And many wars did not have int'l
backing. Vietnam didn't.
This attack on Iraq 2003 was an offensive
war with little international support. This was exactly why the
founders wanted the power to declare war and take the nation to war to
rest with the Congress, so a power-happy executive wouldn't misuse our
military.
Exactly. The founding fathers wanted civilian control of the military
but also wanted checks and balances so the president couldn't use them
as his own personal tool. Which is just what's been happening.
Crazy that they'd play games with something as important as going to
war. But, it is unconstitutional. It really demonstrates the lack of
respect for the Constitutional and "rule of law" that our so-called
leaders have.
Republicans (starting with Lincoln) have had very little respect for
the rule of law. These days it's rising to a fever pitch with the
Bush admin constantly re-defining their own powers and Delay saying he
should control the whole fed. judiciary.
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| User: "JohnnyCJohnny" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Fundies Plot to Remake America in Their Own Image |
13 Apr 2005 01:09:03 PM |
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It comes down to this. Back in the Cold War days the U.S. had the
Russians and world opinion to keep us at least somewhat honest in our
approach to foreign policy. We would have never invaded Iraq back
then.
But, now with the Soviet Union long gone and world opinion irrelevant
(demonstrated by our general disregard for the UN since the Cold War
ended), the U.S. has decided that we're the big boy on the block now
and we make the rules. The U.S. is excercising its military muscle
because it knows it has no serious rivials. Perhaps China someday, but
for now we're in control. Congress and the Constitution are just pesky
hinderences to this military domination mindset of American elites.
This is obvious by their increasing estrangement from and disregard for
these founding institutions.
This all works because the American people are frightened into
submission. 9/11 took care of that end of the deal, whether our
leaders had foreknowledge or not. Now they have a submission and
generally dumbed down population that is ready and willing to support
their miltiary ambitions no matter how misguided or far flung and
despite our democratic traditions.
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