| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
10 Dec 2005 11:58:58 PM |
| Object: |
Christian Reply To Marxism |
http://www.feedmysheep.co.uk/BibleStudies/apologetics/christianreplytomarxism.asp
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
Marxist ideology draws its inspiration from the writings of Karl Marx
and Friedrich Engels. It stresses the need for a political and economic
system that abolishes private property, and in which all material goods
are held in common by all people.
It is not difficult to understand why Marxism appeals to many people.
We live in a world of economic extremes. The gap between the rich and
poor is wide. Marxism promises economic equality. It has suffered
severe political and economic setbacks in the former Soviet Union and
Eastern Europe in recent years. Yet it remains a visible and appealing
ideology for many.
There are some positive values that can be ascribed to Marxism which
explains its popularity. It seeks to do something about the oppressive
conditions under which many people have worked and lived. It also
recognises that there have been abuses under the capitalist system.
However, when you look at the living conditions in socialist societies
such as China, Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union you have to
wonder if it was worth the cost in terms of human lives and realise
that democratic countries have benefited more.
Here is a summary of Marxist beliefs and a response to each one:-
1. Philosophical Materialism
Marxism is based on a solely materialistic perception of reality. There
is belief in the supernatural or immaterial realm. This excludes the
existence of God, angels and demons. All reality is material. Marxists
believe that the mind is a product of the brain and does not survive
death. So Marxists deny the existence of God and accept the Darwinian
theory of evolution as fact. They will also stress the scientific
process in observing reality.
Materialism ignores the evidence of man's immaterial and immortal
nature. It also ignores the evidence that the universe had a beginning
and must have a Creator. It fails to explain how a material universe
could be working toward a good purpose for humanity. The theory of
evolution is accepted without critical evaluation. See below for some
examples of comments:-
"Human DNA contains more organised information than the Encyclopedia
Britannica. If the full text of the encyclopedia were to arrive in
computer code from outer space, most people would regard this as proof
of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But when seen in
nature, it is explained as the workings of random forces." (George Sim
Johnson "Did Darwin Get it Right?" The Wall Street Journal, October 15,
1999)
"9/10 of the talk of evolution is sheer nonsense not founded on
observation and wholly unsupported by fact. This Museum is full of
proof of the utter falsity of their view." (Dr. Ethredge, British
Museum of Science.)
"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the
probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in
a printing shop." (Dr. Edwin Conklin, evolutionist and professor of
biology at Princeton University.)
2. Class Struggle
Marx taught that when a given stage in economic history reaches
maturity, the next stage will emerge. It is necessary, however, that
some form of revolution take place to bring about this change. Marx
identified six stages of economic history.
Tribal communalism - The tribal group owned all things in common.
Slave labour - Conquering groups enslaved their adversaries.
Feudalism - Powerful landowners granted protection and small portions
of land to "peasants" who worked the land for them.
Capitalism - The "bourgeois" own the means of production, while the
"proletariat" worked for wages.
Socialism - After seizing the means of production from the bourgeois,
the proletariat would institute a dictatorship through which it would
cleanse society of all class distinctions based on private property.
Communism - This is the final stage. As class distinctions disappeared,
the state itself would fade away. Peace and prosperity would prevail.
Economic classes are not always the most determinative influence in
society. Race and religion are often stronger. Capitalist societies did
not "self-destruct" as Marx predicted. The conditions of the working
class actually improved, due in part to enlightened social legislation.
Marx overlooked the economic importance of factory production, tools,
materials, training, sales, etc.
There are some advantages of capitalism over socialism. For example, it
encourages people to band together in ways that utilise their personal
strengths. It allows millions of people to make day-to-day economic
decisions rather than rely on the knowledge of a handful of central
planners trying to manage the economy.
History has shown that Marx's Socialism and Communism have failed to
meet Marx's utopia. Marxist societies have created a new "elite" class
of rulers and managers who are constantly fighting for power. For
example, in the 1930s Stalin purged the most dedicated communists.
These "elite" have too much power with no "checks and balances".
Economically these societies have failed except when they have reverted
to a degree of free market practices.
3. Marxist Ethics
Marxists are atheists and so deny any morality based on God's character
or commandments. They believe ethics are based on economics. For the
Marxist, anything that advances communism is moral. This means that
lying, terror and killing are moral if they advance the communist
cause. It is no problem if millions of lives must be sacrificed now as
it will promote the future generation in a communist utopia.
Rudolph J. Rummel has done some of the most exhaustive statistics of
history's genocide and state mass murder. He has come to a simple
conclusion - Democracy brings peace, life and prosperity. A powerful
state brings war, genocide, death, poverty and famine. For example:-
USSR - E.g. Joseph Stalin alone murdered about 40 million of his own
citizens.
China - E.g. Tse-Tung Mao alone murdered about 37 million of his own
citizens.
Cambodia - Pol Pot murdered over 2 million of his own citizens.
Marxist ethics are a tool for oppression by the State. It certainly
hasn't been for the good of the people!
4. Opposition to Religion
Marx was an atheist and believed that God was simply the creation of
people. He thought that only when the people give up their belief in
God will they be truly free. It is well-known that Marx called religion
the "opiate of the people". Marx believed that when the communist
utopia arrived, people would no longer feel the need for religion.
Religion would vanish, just as would the state.
As a result of these convictions about religion, communist countries
have always opposed religion. Often they have sought to actively
destroy it. At other times they have sought to enlist the help of
religious people to promote their cause. They have always at least
sought to control religion, believing that as the younger generation
was educated in science, religion would fade away.
Marx's atheism ignores the evidence for God's existence and the
historical evidence for the truthfulness of Christianity. Marxists find
it hard to explain why religion has persisted and even continued to
grow. Human nature has not changed due to a change in the economic
system. Christians have been responsible for the advancement of women,
the abolition of slavery, the building of hospitals and orphanages, the
feeding of the hungry, the training/education of workers and many other
social projects in poor countries.
5. Human Nature
Marxists believe that humanity has evolved from animals and each
person's humanity is determined by economic forces. Christianity says
that humanity was created by God and is unique from the rest of
creation because we are made in the image of God.
History has shown that economic change under communism has not produced
any radical change in human nature. Since the fall of the communist
regime, the people of Russia have begun to see the effects of the lack
of a religious foundation in their culture. Communism has left the
people without any reason for pursuing an unselfish ethic. A poll by
Pravda in the early 1990s revealed that people in Russia would rather
spend their money on alcohol than support needy children. Marx's theory
has been disproved by history.
The Bible mentions a time of perfect government and peace in Micah
4:1-4. It has nothing to do with Communism or Capitalism for that
matter. It is a kingdom where Jesus Christ is ruler. The Bible tells us
of this kingdom of world peace. Marxists need love, prayer and
encouraged to study God's Word. Our hope will be fully realised when
Jesus returns to rule over all the earth with justice.
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Reply To Marxism |
11 Dec 2005 03:56:43 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
Normally your posts are very good. This one isn't vintage, I'm afraid.
Marxist ideology draws its inspiration from the writings of Karl Marx
and Friedrich Engels. It stresses the need for a political and economic
system that abolishes private property, and in which all material goods
are held in common by all people.
Yes.
It is not difficult to understand why Marxism appeals to many people.
We live in a world of economic extremes. The gap between the rich and
poor is wide. Marxism promises economic equality. It has suffered
severe political and economic setbacks in the former Soviet Union and
Eastern Europe in recent years. Yet it remains a visible and appealing
ideology for many.
Actually Marxism is too intellectual to appeal to the poorest. It appeals to
ambitious members of the middle and upper classes, because it offers entry
into a philosphical club, which confers certain social advantages,
particularly in academic, trades union, local government, or other desirable
areas of employment.
There are some positive values that can be ascribed to Marxism which
explains its popularity. It seeks to do something about the oppressive
conditions under which many people have worked and lived. It also
recognises that there have been abuses under the capitalist system.
However, when you look at the living conditions in socialist societies
such as China, Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union you have to
wonder if it was worth the cost in terms of human lives and realise
that democratic countries have benefited more.
Marxism was a disaster for Russia and China. But them Marx said that these
societies weren't ready for socialism. So the failure is a vindication of
his theory.
Here is a summary of Marxist beliefs and a response to each one:-
1. Philosophical Materialism
Marxism is based on a solely materialistic perception of reality. There
is belief in the supernatural or immaterial realm. This excludes the
existence of God, angels and demons. All reality is material. Marxists
believe that the mind is a product of the brain and does not survive
death. So Marxists deny the existence of God and accept the Darwinian
theory of evolution as fact. They will also stress the scientific
process in observing reality.
Materialism ignores the evidence of man's immaterial and immortal
nature. It also ignores the evidence that the universe had a beginning
and must have a Creator. It fails to explain how a material universe
could be working toward a good purpose for humanity. The theory of
evolution is accepted without critical evaluation. See below for some
examples of comments:-
You've got the wrong end of the stick.
For a Marxist, "materialism" means that the form of society is determined by
the means of production (of physical goods). So a society with a
predominantly agricultural economy has one form of political organisation, a
society with an industrial economy another form, inevitably, because, for
instance, agricultural workers cannot strike unless they want to starve to
death, whilst industrial workers can.
A man's moral views, entertainment, culture, and so on is also determined by
this material base. Marxists talk of the cultural "superstructure". Religion
is part of this superstructure, and that preculdes it being true, in the
sense that most adherents would consider it to be true.
"Human DNA contains more organised information than the Encyclopedia
Britannica. If the full text of the encyclopedia were to arrive in
computer code from outer space, most people would regard this as proof
of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But when seen in
nature, it is explained as the workings of random forces." (George Sim
Johnson "Did Darwin Get it Right?" The Wall Street Journal, October 15,
1999)
"9/10 of the talk of evolution is sheer nonsense not founded on
observation and wholly unsupported by fact. This Museum is full of
proof of the utter falsity of their view." (Dr. Ethredge, British
Museum of Science.)
"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the
probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in
a printing shop." (Dr. Edwin Conklin, evolutionist and professor of
biology at Princeton University.)
Marx also accepted Darwin's theory. However in later years materialism and
evolutionary psychology came to be seen as incompatible. Your arguments
against Darwinism have nothing to do with Marxism, and also nothing to do
with Catholicism - the Vatican, like all instituions devoted to learning,
accepts Darwin's theory as substantially correct, but a Catholic is free to
reject it, just as he can believe in a flat earth without affecting his
status within the church.
2. Class Struggle
Marx taught that when a given stage in economic history reaches
maturity, the next stage will emerge. It is necessary, however, that
some form of revolution take place to bring about this change. Marx
identified six stages of economic history.
Tribal communalism - The tribal group owned all things in common.
Slave labour - Conquering groups enslaved their adversaries.
Feudalism - Powerful landowners granted protection and small portions
of land to "peasants" who worked the land for them.
Capitalism - The "bourgeois" own the means of production, while the
"proletariat" worked for wages.
Socialism - After seizing the means of production from the bourgeois,
the proletariat would institute a dictatorship through which it would
cleanse society of all class distinctions based on private property.
Communism - This is the final stage. As class distinctions disappeared,
the state itself would fade away. Peace and prosperity would prevail.
Economic classes are not always the most determinative influence in
society. Race and religion are often stronger. Capitalist societies did
not "self-destruct" as Marx predicted. The conditions of the working
class actually improved, due in part to enlightened social legislation.
Marx overlooked the economic importance of factory production, tools,
materials, training, sales, etc.
Marx though that the transition to a socialist ecomony would come about by
violent revolution. In fact what happened was that wars between the Western
European states produced the social dislocations that ultimately led to the
emergence of socialist governments. So a near hit.
Also, these socilaist governments did not aggressively eliminate every last
trace of capitalisim - some reserves of capital remained with private
owners, and the socialist experiment did not lead to communism, as Marx had
predicted. Instead, the means of production changed again, taking political
power away from trades unions and into the hands of a professional creative
/ marketing / adiminstrative class.
There are some advantages of capitalism over socialism. For example, it
encourages people to band together in ways that utilise their personal
strengths. It allows millions of people to make day-to-day economic
decisions rather than rely on the knowledge of a handful of central
planners trying to manage the economy.
History has shown that Marx's Socialism and Communism have failed to
meet Marx's utopia. Marxist societies have created a new "elite" class
of rulers and managers who are constantly fighting for power. For
example, in the 1930s Stalin purged the most dedicated communists.
These "elite" have too much power with no "checks and balances".
Economically these societies have failed except when they have reverted
to a degree of free market practices.
But what Marx is saying is that actually you don't have a choice. It doesn't
matter which is fairer or more efficient. The political structure is
determined by the menas of production.
However it does seem obvious that this is not wholly correct. France has
chosen a more socialist model whilst Britain has chosen a more liberal
economy, despite the two countries having essentially similar technology.
Britian has grown slightly faster as a result and is now a little bit richer
than France, though living standards are still pretty broadly comparable.
3. Marxist Ethics
Marxists are atheists and so deny any morality based on God's character
or commandments. They believe ethics are based on economics. For the
Marxist, anything that advances communism is moral. This means that
lying, terror and killing are moral if they advance the communist
cause. It is no problem if millions of lives must be sacrificed now as
it will promote the future generation in a communist utopia.
This is the whole problem. "Revolutionary morality" quickly turns into
barbarism.
Rudolph J. Rummel has done some of the most exhaustive statistics of
history's genocide and state mass murder. He has come to a simple
conclusion - Democracy brings peace, life and prosperity. A powerful
state brings war, genocide, death, poverty and famine. For example:-
USSR - E.g. Joseph Stalin alone murdered about 40 million of his own
citizens.
China - E.g. Tse-Tung Mao alone murdered about 37 million of his own
citizens.
Cambodia - Pol Pot murdered over 2 million of his own citizens.
And Western liberals have pulled to bits over 200 million unborn babies.
Marxist ethics are a tool for oppression by the State. It certainly
hasn't been for the good of the people!
4. Opposition to Religion
Marx was an atheist and believed that God was simply the creation of
people. He thought that only when the people give up their belief in
God will they be truly free. It is well-known that Marx called religion
the "opiate of the people". Marx believed that when the communist
utopia arrived, people would no longer feel the need for religion.
Religion would vanish, just as would the state.
As a result of these convictions about religion, communist countries
have always opposed religion. Often they have sought to actively
destroy it. At other times they have sought to enlist the help of
religious people to promote their cause. They have always at least
sought to control religion, believing that as the younger generation
was educated in science, religion would fade away.
The situation isn't at all simple. Basically the Marxists opposed religion,
theoretically because it was a product of the reactionary, bougeois mindset,
but really because they were totalitarians, and totaitarian states don't
tolerate other sources of authority.
A lot of Christians believe that religion promotes the class interests of
the rich and powerful, and you can find substantial support for this
attitude in the New Testament. What the Christian doesn't believe is that
religion has no value other than to support these class interests.
Marx's atheism ignores the evidence for God's existence and the
historical evidence for the truthfulness of Christianity. Marxists find
it hard to explain why religion has persisted and even continued to
grow. Human nature has not changed due to a change in the economic
system. Christians have been responsible for the advancement of women,
the abolition of slavery, the building of hospitals and orphanages, the
feeding of the hungry, the training/education of workers and many other
social projects in poor countries.
Of course Marxists would say that the hospitals and orphanages actually
contribute to the problem, by papering over the inequalities that make such
institutions necessary. There is always some truth in that.
5. Human Nature
Marxists believe that humanity has evolved from animals and each
person's humanity is determined by economic forces. Christianity says
that humanity was created by God and is unique from the rest of
creation because we are made in the image of God.
History has shown that economic change under communism has not produced
any radical change in human nature. Since the fall of the communist
regime, the people of Russia have begun to see the effects of the lack
of a religious foundation in their culture. Communism has left the
people without any reason for pursuing an unselfish ethic. A poll by
Pravda in the early 1990s revealed that people in Russia would rather
spend their money on alcohol than support needy children. Marx's theory
has been disproved by history.
Most people act in their own interests most of the time. Capitalism accepts
that, which is sensible, but also tends to celebrate it, which has dangers.
Marxists tended to focus on collective interests (class consiousness), and
to assume that working class collective interests were morally worth
pursuing, at any price. That has even worse dangers.
The Bible mentions a time of perfect government and peace in Micah
4:1-4. It has nothing to do with Communism or Capitalism for that
matter. It is a kingdom where Jesus Christ is ruler. The Bible tells us
of this kingdom of world peace. Marxists need love, prayer and
encouraged to study God's Word. Our hope will be fully realised when
Jesus returns to rule over all the earth with justice.
Jesus didn't come to tell us how to arrange our political affairs. At the
moment there is a discussion in Britain about how to organise the railways.
Some people think they should be split up inot private companies, some
people think they should be nationalised, some people think the track should
be nationalised and the rolling stock run privately. There should no
implication that people who support one option are somehow worse Christians
than people who support another, though the debate isn't entirely technical,
there are also issue about how far the state can legitmately control the
economy.
A Chrisitian can agree with Marxists to a large extent. Ultimately, however,
we must insist that the church, and not the state, tells us how to conduct
our personal lives. If Marxists want you to work in their steelworks on a
wage set by them, you can render unto Caesar his due, there is no obligation
on the Christian to engage in political opposition to this. However,
historically Marxist regimes have gone too far, and ultimately Christians
were forced to bring them down.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Reply To Marxism |
12 Dec 2005 04:05:40 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134280738.680326.61110@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
http://www.feedmysheep.co.uk/BibleStudies/apologetics/christianreplytomarxism.asp
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
Marxist ideology draws its inspiration from the writings of Karl Marx
and Friedrich Engels.
Whereas the Bible draws it's inspiration from a non-existant being, and
crappy hallucinations !
x-posting moron.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable notion
that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often led to
accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what that
reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be skeptical of
someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Reply To Marxism |
11 Dec 2005 09:02:41 AM |
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In <1134280738.680326.61110@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote:
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
Sue for patent infringement?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We need everything you've got"
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2726554C
Forgotten Already
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1233272C
Feds are treating Louisiana like enemy
"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" |
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| Title: Re: Christian Reply To Marxism |
12 Dec 2005 08:09:25 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
Marx's atheism ignores the evidence for God's existence
Well not really, it just looks at the 'evidence' (Hahahahahaha!) and
deems it not enough for belief in God. Nietzsche was right. God is dead
and you have two choices, nihilism or atheism.
DTW
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Reply To False Preacherman |
11 Dec 2005 01:11:25 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
http://www.feedmysheep.co.uk/BibleStudies/apologetics/christianreplytomarxism.asp
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
What kind of ignorant heresy are you attempting
to foist off on the faithful?
A "Christian Reply To Marxism" by "Words of Truth" is it?
So why wasn't there one quotation from the New Testament? Why
wasn't there One quotation attributable to Christ? Art thou in
fear of Jesus' socialist leanings? They might pose an onerous
obstacle in a dishonest treatise such as this.
In fact, let's investigate the attributed sources for your quotes:
George Sim Johnson, ardent creationist, the truth notwithstanding.
NOTE, not intelligent design proponent. No bio found, but
obviously an unabashedly pro Catholic Church writer, including a
strident opposition to contraception of any form. I wonder what
his views on capitalism are? Catholics can be strong believers in
the merits of wealth redistribution.
Dr. Ethredge, British Museum of Science? You wouldn't happen to
have a REAL citation for this Dr. Ethredge, would you? I find one
quote, multiplied across boards and websites, often with the same
copy and pasted pro "intelligent design" quotes, in the exact same
order, rather specious.
Dr. Edwin Conklin, evolutionist and professor of biology at
Princeton University. That much is true, but dead now 5+ decades
(1863-1952), Johns Hopkins PHD, major area of biological study was
cytology (cell) and heredity Politically Conservative and active
in the eugenics movement of the early 20th century. Deeply
religious throughout his life , Conklin always maintained an
underlying blind faith in God, which he believed could not
supported by scientific facts.
Rudolph J. Rummel; starts from a strong libertarian bias in his
beliefs which causes a great deal of his data to be suspect. There
is no question that authoritarian regimes are domestically more
brutal than democratic, but Rummel has also been forthright in
pointing out that terms of the ratio of deadliness to base
population, the level of totalitarian rule was the determinate
factor, not communism, per se.
His beliefs also predicate a great underestimation of death caused
by democratic states, noticeably, covert acts by elitist agents of
democratic states that have undermined and overthrown democratic
states which were viewed disfavourably, and the effects of
democratic states empowering autocratic clients.
A utopian dreamer who posits that a democratic world would
necessarily be a peaceful world. He refuses to view covert
aggressive actions as warfare.
Covert action is not war...There would be a place for
spies in a democratic world, as there is in a free
market where companies spy on each other. But in such a
world hostile enemies would be absent, the expectation
of war gone, and thus a secret war unnecessary.
But what about past American covert action? This was
during the Cold War and was part of the largely
successful policy to contain communism, particularly
Soviet power. Mistakes were made, actions were taken
that in hindsight embarrass democrats. Even then, there
was no military action between democracies.
<http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/PK.REV.RJR.RESP.HTM>
In America's recent past, examples include: "Papa Doc" and "Baby
Doc" Duvalier, Anastasios Somoza, Augusto Pinochet, General
Suharto, Hugo Banzer, Jonas Savimbi, Lon Nol, Manuel Noriega,
Mobutu Sese Seko, Raoul Cedras, Reza Shah Pahlavi, Roberto
D'Aubuisson, and last but not least, Saddam Hussein. Rummel dances
around the statistics of death wrought by these folks.
Your ONE Bible citation:
Micah 4:1-4
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the
mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in
the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above
the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations
shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the
mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of
Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk
in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the
word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among
many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they
shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears
into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword
against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But
they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig
tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of
the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
Old Testament quotation. Question; Does Revelations 12 trump Micah 4?
And what of Jesus' unbounded pacifism when facing personal violence?
Matthew 5: 38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye,
and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye
resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy
right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man
will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him
have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go
a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee,
and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love
your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them
that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of
your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to
rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the
just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love
you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the
same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more
than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore
perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
This whole War Upon Terror seems unChristianly when considering
the words of Christ here. What about the apostle Paul?
Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest
in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as
lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved,
avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath:
for it is written,
Vengeance is mine;
I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him;
if he thirst, give him drink:
for in so doing thou shalt
heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
What of Christ's blatant socialism?
Luke 18: 18-26
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master,
what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
none is good, save one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments,
Do not commit adultery,
Do not kill,
Do not steal,
Do not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother.
And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him,
Yet lackest thou one thing:
sell all that thou hast,
and distribute unto the poor,
and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:
and come, follow me.
And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful:
for he was very rich. And when Jesus saw
that he was very sorrowful, he said,
How hardly shall they that have riches
enter into the kingdom of God! For it is easier
for a camel to go through a needle's eye,
than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Your apostacy is transparent.
What you preach is not Christianity at all.
Yours is not to hate the forms which reality take; not to judge
the actions of others; not to fight manifestations of evil in this
world. Yours is certainly not to to be increased at the expense of
the less fortunate.
Yours is to hold faithfully to the path, to accept the pain and
tribulations which it will bring you, and to shine the faith
brightly, leading others onto the way.
Yours is to accept the evil which befalls you joyfully, knowing
that all that passes in your short miserable life on earth
is nugatory, and that what is promised to be is beyond
what you could ever deserve.
Luke 6: 20-39
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said,
Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled.
Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they
shall separate you from their company, and shall
reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the
Son of man's sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold,
your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner
did their fathers unto the prophets. But woe unto you
that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe
unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for
so did their fathers to the false prophets.
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do
good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto
him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the
other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to
take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of
thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not
again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye
also to them likewise.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye?
for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do
good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?
for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to
them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for
sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping
for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and
ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind
unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is
merciful.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and
ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be
forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good
measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running
over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same
measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you
again. And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind
lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
If it is too much for a weak pretender
such as yourself;
then put down your corked cross,
your poseur ways will bring you naught
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Reply To False Preacherman |
11 Dec 2005 03:11:19 PM |
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sue_doe_cy_ants@labb.port5.com, posted this little bit of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
words of truth wrote:
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
What kind of ignorant heresy are you attempting
to foist off on the faithful?
A "Christian Reply To Marxism" by "Words of Truth" is it?
So why wasn't there one quotation from the New Testament? Why
wasn't there One quotation attributable to Christ? Art thou in
fear of Jesus' socialist leanings? They might pose an onerous
obstacle in a dishonest treatise such as this.
I <snipped the rest> of this post without bothering to read the tripe.
It made me laugh too hard just by this point!
"art thou?" Hast thou been browsing thy King Jameseth Bible too
lightly again. Doesth thou prayeth in King Jameseth "English" to show
thy holiness and supplication? Giveth thou thy alms to the lacky at
thy gates?
Hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Sorry, but I just couldn't let thy jocularity pass without comment.
parakaleo
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Reply To False Preacherman |
12 Dec 2005 02:14:07 PM |
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On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:11:19 -0700,
wrote:
sue_doe_cy_ants@labb.port5.com, posted this little bit of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
words of truth wrote:
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
What kind of ignorant heresy are you attempting
to foist off on the faithful?
A "Christian Reply To Marxism" by "Words of Truth" is it?
So why wasn't there one quotation from the New Testament? Why
wasn't there One quotation attributable to Christ? Art thou in
fear of Jesus' socialist leanings? They might pose an onerous
obstacle in a dishonest treatise such as this.
I <snipped the rest> of this post without bothering to read the tripe.
It made me laugh too hard just by this point!
"art thou?" Hast thou been browsing thy King Jameseth Bible too
lightly again. Doesth thou prayeth in King Jameseth "English" to show
thy holiness and supplication? Giveth thou thy alms to the lacky at
thy gates?
Hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Sorry, but I just couldn't let thy jocularity pass without comment.
parakaleo
Nor could you resist cutting 99% of what was wrote in order to make
what was left appear funny.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Reply To False Preacherman |
11 Dec 2005 01:52:42 PM |
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wrote:
words of truth wrote:
http://www.feedmysheep.co.uk/BibleStudies/apologetics/christianreplytomarxism.asp
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
What kind of ignorant heresy are you attempting
to foist off on the faithful?
A "Christian Reply To Marxism" by "Words of Truth" is it?
So why wasn't there one quotation from the New Testament? Why
wasn't there One quotation attributable to Christ? Art thou in
fear of Jesus' socialist leanings? They might pose an onerous
obstacle in a dishonest treatise such as this.
"Words of Truth" is a troll who posts messages by (usually) fairly dumb
writers who are the kind of people who pointedly describe themselves
as "Christian." Often, they seem to be Roman Catholics. Always, it
is clear that they are in a closed-off world of their own with only
vague ideas of what lies outside.
For example, this one writes "Marxist ideology draws its inspiration
from the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. It stresses the
need for a political and economic system that abolishes private
property, and in which all material goods are held in common by all
people."
The first sentence assumes the reader has never heard of Marx or
Engels, that is, someone who is either retarded or not yet out of
grade school. The second sentence is completely incorrect. In
Marxist writings, the desirability of a communist utopia is hardly
ever questioned. The concern is with problems of the present
set of conditions and how to get to and develop socialism, which in
turn is supposed to develop into communism.
The low standard of scholarship and information in this piece is
characteristic of most of the articles posted by "Words of Truth."
They suggest that while it is politically dominant, Christianity is
intellectually and morally bankrupt. Of course there are many
versions of Christianity but this one does seem consistent with
the morons and thugs in charge of the U.S. government, major
right-wing television evangelists, and the wide public belief in
superstitions like astrology and creationism. There is not much
point in arguing with it because the people who put it out
obviously do not understand reason. They just believe whatever
they want to believe and say or repeat whatever agrees with
their belief, which is usually what some authority told them.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Reply To False Preacherman |
11 Dec 2005 09:29:24 PM |
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wrote:
sue_doe_cy_ants@labb.port5.com wrote:
words of truth wrote:
http://www.feedmysheep.co.uk/BibleStudies/apologetics/christianreplytomarxism.asp
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
What kind of ignorant heresy are you attempting
to foist off on the faithful?
A "Christian Reply To Marxism" by "Words of Truth" is it?
So why wasn't there one quotation from the New Testament? Why
wasn't there One quotation attributable to Christ? Art thou in
fear of Jesus' socialist leanings? They might pose an onerous
obstacle in a dishonest treatise such as this.
"Words of Truth" is a troll who posts messages by (usually) fairly dumb
writers who are the kind of people who pointedly describe themselves
as "Christian." Often, they seem to be Roman Catholics. Always, it
is clear that they are in a closed-off world of their own with only
vague ideas of what lies outside.
For example, this one writes "Marxist ideology draws its inspiration
from the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. It stresses the
need for a political and economic system that abolishes private
property, and in which all material goods are held in common by all
people."
Just honing rhetoric,
i didn't figure there would be any response.
i have standing challenges to prowar poseur Christians
on many boards
To defend GW's acts of war as Christian.
With King James at twenty paces.
Sadly, very few takers
Who would Jesus Bomb?
Who would He render to torturers?
It was an exercise in old strategies.
Force feeding them their own dogma's tail.
It also counts as a Policy Affront Monogram for
The AnnoDerrida Derisorial Policy Deconstruction Group (ADDPDG)
Wonkage must be produced to remain an active fellow in the org...
it's too bad that it becomes nothing but misundertood pearls
before posters like the one after yourself.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Reply To False Preacherman |
12 Dec 2005 01:16:46 PM |
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wrote:
animaminima@yahoo.com wrote:
wrote:
words of truth wrote:
http://www.feedmysheep.co.uk/BibleStudies/apologetics/christianreplytomarxism.asp
CHRISTIAN REPLY TO MARXISM
7 March 2005
What kind of ignorant heresy are you attempting
to foist off on the faithful?
A "Christian Reply To Marxism" by "Words of Truth" is it?
So why wasn't there one quotation from the New Testament? Why
wasn't there One quotation attributable to Christ? Art thou in
fear of Jesus' socialist leanings? They might pose an onerous
obstacle in a dishonest treatise such as this.
"Words of Truth" is a troll who posts messages by (usually) fairly dumb
writers who are the kind of people who pointedly describe themselves
as "Christian." Often, they seem to be Roman Catholics. Always, it
is clear that they are in a closed-off world of their own with only
vague ideas of what lies outside.
For example, this one writes "Marxist ideology draws its inspiration
from the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. It stresses the
need for a political and economic system that abolishes private
property, and in which all material goods are held in common by all
people."
Just honing rhetoric,
i didn't figure there would be any response.
i have standing challenges to prowar poseur Christians
on many boards
To defend GW's acts of war as Christian.
With King James at twenty paces.
Sadly, very few takers
Who would Jesus Bomb?
Who would He render to torturers?
It was an exercise in old strategies.
Force feeding them their own dogma's tail.
It also counts as a Policy Affront Monogram for
The AnnoDerrida Derisorial Policy Deconstruction Group (ADDPDG)
Wonkage must be produced to remain an active fellow in the org...
it's too bad that it becomes nothing but misundertood pearls
before posters like the one after yourself.
Your efforts are not as unappreciated as you might think.
Poor Anima Minima does not understand that just about
everyone has Words Of Truth's measure by now.
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