| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"ohoe" |
| Date: |
17 Sep 2004 03:26:14 PM |
| Object: |
Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
Pagans, Christianity, and Infanticide
By Christopher Price
"Infanticide was one of the deepest stains of the ancient
civilization."
Introduction
The history of infanticide is gruesome. As hard as it may be to
imagine today, throughout history infanticide was a common and
endorsed practice. While it undoubtedly still occurs today, all
governments outlaw it. And in the West at least, society and culture
condemn it. So how did we get from there to here? From having Western
societies that condoned and encouraged infanticide to having a Western
society that condemns and discourages infanticide?
The short answer is: Christianity.
Paganism and Infanticide
Pagans in the Roman Empire had a very different view about the value
of human life than we do today. Infanticide was legal and encouraged
in ancient Greece and Rome. Other pagan societies, such as the
Carthaginians, went so far as to kill their children as religious
sacrifices to their gods. According to Plutarch, the Carthaginians
"offered up their own children, and those who had no children would
buy little ones from poor people and cut their throats as if they were
so many lambs of young birds; meanwhile the mothers stood by without a
tear or moan." Moralia 2.17. Indeed, "Infanticide was common in all
well studied ancient cultures, including those of ancient Greece,
Rome, India, China, and Japan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
Some forms of infanticide involved a parent directly killing the
child, usually by drowning. The infant was simply held underwater
until it was dead. Relatively quick, inexpensive, and the water
muffled the cries. In other cases, the family would simply take the
child out beyond the city and abandon it to die from exposure to the
elements. In both approaches, those that should have been protecting
the helpless, were the ones who were killing them. Hence, in this
discussion I will speak both of infanticide and abandonment as one.
"Infanticide was infamously universal" in ancient Greece and Rome.
Frederic Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity, page 71. As Will
Durant stated, infanticide was so common in ancient Rome that "birth
itself was an adventure." Caesar and Christ, page 56. Indeed, so
common was infanticide in ancient Greece that Polybius (205-118 BCE)
blamed the decline of ancient Greece on it. (Histories, 6). It was
"decimating pagan society," Durant, op. cit. 698, and was the leading
cause of the tremendous gender gap of men to women in the ancient
world. Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity, pages 97-98. Female
infants were particularly vulnerable to infanticide. It was very
uncommon for even wealthy, upper-class families to have more than one
daughter in ancient Greece and Rome. An inscription found in Delphi
illustrates this quite well. Of more than 600 second-century families,
only one percent had raised two daughters. Susan Scrimshaw,
"Infanticide in Human Populations: Societal and Individual Concerns,"
in Infanticide: Comparative and Evolutionary Perspectives, eds. Glenn
Hausfater and Sarah Hardy, page 439. In sum, there is no dispute among
historians and informed laypersons: Infanticide was incredibly
widespread in the ancient pagan world.
But what is most chilling is that it was openly practiced. Pagan
society approved of the practice and encouraged it. "Not only was the
exposure of infants a very common practice, it was justified by law
and advocated by philosophers." Rodney Stark, The Rise of
Christianity, at 118. See also Durant, op. cit., page 56. In Greece
and ancient Rome a child was virtually its father's chattel-e.g., in
Roman law, the Patria Protestas granted the father the right to
dispose of his offspring as he saw fit. In Sparta, the decision was
made by a public official. The Twelve Tables of Roman Law held:
"Deformed infants shall be killed" De Legibus, 3.8. Of course,
deformed was broadly construed and often meant no more than the baby
appeared "weakly." The Twelve Tables also explicitly permitted a
father to expose any female infant. Stark, op. cit., page 118.
Leading pagan leaders and philosophers also encouraged the practice.
Cicero defended infanticide by referring to the Twelve Tables. Plato
and Aristotle recommended infanticide as legitimate state policy.
Cornelius Tacitus went so far as to condemn the Jews for their
opposition to infanticide. He stated that the Jewish view that "it was
a deadly sin to kill an unwanted child" was just another of the many
"sinister and revolting practices" of the Jews. Histories 5.5. Even
Seneca, otherwise known for his relatively high moral standards,
stated, "we drown children at birth who are weakly and abnormal." De
Ira 1.15.
A chilling letter from a pagan husband to his wife captures the casual
nature of this practice among the pagans:
"Know that I am still in Alexandria.... I ask and beg you to take good
care of our baby son, and as soon as I received payment I shall send
it up to you. If you are delivered (before I come home), if it is a
boy keep it, if a girl, discard it." Naphtali Lewis, Life in Egypt
Under Roman Rule, at 54. According to Stark, "this letter dates from
the year 1 BCE, but these patterns persisted among pagans far into the
Christian era." Stark, op. cit., page 97-98.
In sum, pagans practiced infanticide almost universally. Nor can it be
said to be simply a practice to preserve few resources to save the
whole culture. Infanticide was practiced by rich and poor alike. By
Romans and Greeks. By citizens and slaves.
Christianity and Infanticide
Into this pagan world stepped Christianity. Starting in Jerusalem, and
with an undisputed Jewish influence, Christianity quickly spread
throughout the Roman Empire. But rather than being restricted to one
racial or cultural group, Christianity spread throughout the Roman
Empire's diverse ethnicities, including the Greeks and Romans.
Beginning in about 30-33 CE, Christianity reached some level of
primacy when the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in the
Fourth Century. By 350 CE, Rodney Stark estimates that 56.5 percent of
the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity.
A. Early Christian Opposition to Infanticide
From its earliest creeds, Christians "absolutely prohibited"
infanticide as "murder." Stark, at 124. To Christians, the infant had
value. Whereas pagans placed no value on infant life, Christians
treated them as human beings. They viewed infanticide as the murder of
a human being, not a convenient tool to rid society of excess females
and perceived weaklings. The baby, whether male, female, perfect, or
imperfect, was created in the image of God and therefore had value.
Early Christian documents reveal that there was a clash of cultures as
Christianity converted previously pagan Romans and Greeks. Whereas
Judaism prohibited infanticide by Jews, Christianity was converting
pagans and instructing them that infanticide was immoral and murder.
The Didache (90 -110 CE), an instruction manual for Christian
converts, commanded "You shall not commit infanticide." Another early
Christian document, the Epistle of Barnabas (130 CE), also explicitly
condemned infanticide and prohibited its practices as necessary parts
of the "way of light." Moreover, by the end of the second century,
"Christians were not only proclaiming their rejection of abortion and
infanticide, but had begun direct attacks on pagans, and especially
pagan religions for sustaining such crimes." Stark, op. cit., page
125. Robin L. Fox also notes this activity: "Christians opposed much
in the accepted practice of the pagan world. They vigorously attacked
infanticide and the exposure of children." Fox, op. cit., page 350.
Callistus, the Bishop of Rome--a onetime slave-- in 222 CE strongly
voiced his condemnation of infanticide to the pagan public. Justin
Martyr's First Apology (250 CE) stated, "We have been taught that it
is wicked to expose even newly-born children." Also in the second
century, Athengoras, a Christian leader, wrote in his Plea to the
Emperor Marcus Aurelius, that "[we do not expose] an infant, because
those who expose them are chargeable with child murder." Another
Christian writer, Minucius Felix, wrote to Emperor Claudius, "And I
see that you at one time expose your begotten children to wild beasts
and to the birds; at another that you crush when strangled with a
miserable kind of death. . . . And these things assuredly come down
from your gods. For Saturn did not expose his children but devoured
them."
But so long as Christianity remained a disfavored--and sometimes
persecuted--religion, their appeals to the pagan government to act
against infanticide were ineffectual in changing government policy.
Even so, Christians worked against infanticide by prohibiting its
members from practicing it, voicing their moral view on infanticide to
the pagan world, and by providing for the relief of the poor and
actually taking in and supporting babies which had been left to die by
exposure by their pagan parents. As Fox explains, "to the poor, the
widows and orphans, Christians gave alms and support, like the
synagogue communities, their forerunners. This 'brotherly love' has
been minimized as a reason for turning to the Church, as if only those
who were members could know of it. In fact, it was widely recognized."
Fox, op. cit., page 324. According to Durant, "in many instances
Christians rescued exposed infant, baptized them, and brought them up
with the aid of community funds." Durant, op. cit., page 598. Through
these efforts, Christians worked to diminish some of the causes of
infanticide.
B. Christianity's Rise to Preeminence
Yet so long as Christianity was an illegal religion, persecuted by the
same culture that murdered their own babies, it had little chance of
enacting policies against infanticide. Finally, however, with the
Edict of Milan--which legalized the practice of
Christianity--Christian leaders began to exert their influence on the
Roman emperors regarding infanticide. Immediately after his
conversion, Constantine--the first Christian Emperor--enacted two
measures targeting the problem of infanticide: 1) Constantine provided
funds out of the imperial treasury for parents over burdened with
children; and 2) Constantine gave all the rights of property of
exposed infants to those who saved and supported them. But more
generally, Constantine broadened the scope of imperial charity and
provided assistance for the poor and needy. "He also acknowledged the
new ideal of charity. Previous emperors had encouraged schemes to
support small numbers of children in less favored families, the future
recruits for their armies. Constantine gave funds to the churches to
support the poor, the widow and orphans." And according to Robin L.
Fox, the church used those funds for charity. "Swollen by the
Emperor's gifts, it helped the old, the infirm, and the destitute."
Fox, op. cit., page 668.
Although the church, with the assistance of the government, was
working to address many of the causes of infanticide, it continued to
pressure Rome for a ban on infanticide. Bishop Basil of Caesarea
argued persistently and persuasively for such a ban. Finally, he
convinced Emperor Valentinian (364-375 CE)--a Christian--to outlaw the
practice of infanticide in the Roman Empire. Finally, infanticide was
banned.
Conclusion
Although ancient and pagan Greek and Rome had practiced and encouraged
infanticide for hundreds and hundreds of years, Christianity
fundamentally altered those societies. Christianity eliminated the
promotion and encouragement of infanticide by government and leading
societal institutions in Western Civilization. Clearly, one unique and
valuable contribution of Christianity to Western Civilization was its
opposition to infanticide.
http://www.geocities.com/christiancadre/member_contrib/cp_infanticide.html
.
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| User: "Michael Kuettner" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
17 Sep 2004 03:31:06 PM |
|
|
"ohoe" <oohoe@lycos.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:d0507f0b.0409171226.225f6454@posting.google.com...
Pagans, Christianity, and Infanticide
By Christopher Price
<***** snipped>
Don't feed the crossposting wankers.
Thank you,
Michael Kuettner
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Peter Jason" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
20 Sep 2004 08:07:06 PM |
|
|
"ohoe" <oohoe@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d0507f0b.0409171226.225f6454@posting.google.com...
Pagans, Christianity, and Infanticide
By Christopher Price
"Infanticide was one of the deepest stains of the ancient
civilization."
Introduction
The history of infanticide is gruesome. As hard as it may be to
imagine today, throughout history infanticide was a common and
endorsed practice. While it undoubtedly still occurs today, all
governments outlaw it. And in the West at least, society and culture
condemn it. So how did we get from there to here? From having Western
societies that condoned and encouraged infanticide to having a Western
society that condemns and discourages infanticide?
The short answer is: Christianity.
Paganism and Infanticide
Pagans in the Roman Empire had a very different view about the value
of human life than we do today. Infanticide was legal and encouraged
in ancient Greece and Rome. Other pagan societies, such as the
Carthaginians, went so far as to kill their children as religious
sacrifices to their gods. According to Plutarch, the Carthaginians
"offered up their own children, and those who had no children would
buy little ones from poor people and cut their throats as if they were
so many lambs of young birds; meanwhile the mothers stood by without a
tear or moan." Moralia 2.17. Indeed, "Infanticide was common in all
well studied ancient cultures, including those of ancient Greece,
Rome, India, China, and Japan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
Some forms of infanticide involved a parent directly killing the
child, usually by drowning. The infant was simply held underwater
until it was dead. Relatively quick, inexpensive, and the water
muffled the cries. In other cases, the family would simply take the
child out beyond the city and abandon it to die from exposure to the
elements. In both approaches, those that should have been protecting
the helpless, were the ones who were killing them. Hence, in this
discussion I will speak both of infanticide and abandonment as one.
"Infanticide was infamously universal" in ancient Greece and Rome.
Frederic Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity, page 71. As Will
Durant stated, infanticide was so common in ancient Rome that "birth
itself was an adventure." Caesar and Christ, page 56. Indeed, so
common was infanticide in ancient Greece that Polybius (205-118 BCE)
blamed the decline of ancient Greece on it. (Histories, 6). It was
"decimating pagan society," Durant, op. cit. 698, and was the leading
cause of the tremendous gender gap of men to women in the ancient
world. Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity, pages 97-98. Female
infants were particularly vulnerable to infanticide. It was very
uncommon for even wealthy, upper-class families to have more than one
daughter in ancient Greece and Rome. An inscription found in Delphi
illustrates this quite well. Of more than 600 second-century families,
only one percent had raised two daughters. Susan Scrimshaw,
"Infanticide in Human Populations: Societal and Individual Concerns,"
in Infanticide: Comparative and Evolutionary Perspectives, eds. Glenn
Hausfater and Sarah Hardy, page 439. In sum, there is no dispute among
historians and informed laypersons: Infanticide was incredibly
widespread in the ancient pagan world.
But what is most chilling is that it was openly practiced. Pagan
society approved of the practice and encouraged it. "Not only was the
exposure of infants a very common practice, it was justified by law
and advocated by philosophers." Rodney Stark, The Rise of
Christianity, at 118. See also Durant, op. cit., page 56. In Greece
and ancient Rome a child was virtually its father's chattel-e.g., in
Roman law, the Patria Protestas granted the father the right to
dispose of his offspring as he saw fit. In Sparta, the decision was
made by a public official. The Twelve Tables of Roman Law held:
"Deformed infants shall be killed" De Legibus, 3.8. Of course,
deformed was broadly construed and often meant no more than the baby
appeared "weakly." The Twelve Tables also explicitly permitted a
father to expose any female infant. Stark, op. cit., page 118.
Leading pagan leaders and philosophers also encouraged the practice.
Cicero defended infanticide by referring to the Twelve Tables. Plato
and Aristotle recommended infanticide as legitimate state policy.
Cornelius Tacitus went so far as to condemn the Jews for their
opposition to infanticide. He stated that the Jewish view that "it was
a deadly sin to kill an unwanted child" was just another of the many
"sinister and revolting practices" of the Jews. Histories 5.5. Even
Seneca, otherwise known for his relatively high moral standards,
stated, "we drown children at birth who are weakly and abnormal." De
Ira 1.15.
A chilling letter from a pagan husband to his wife captures the casual
nature of this practice among the pagans:
"Know that I am still in Alexandria.... I ask and beg you to take good
care of our baby son, and as soon as I received payment I shall send
it up to you. If you are delivered (before I come home), if it is a
boy keep it, if a girl, discard it." Naphtali Lewis, Life in Egypt
Under Roman Rule, at 54. According to Stark, "this letter dates from
the year 1 BCE, but these patterns persisted among pagans far into the
Christian era." Stark, op. cit., page 97-98.
In sum, pagans practiced infanticide almost universally. Nor can it be
said to be simply a practice to preserve few resources to save the
whole culture. Infanticide was practiced by rich and poor alike. By
Romans and Greeks. By citizens and slaves.
Christianity and Infanticide
Into this pagan world stepped Christianity. Starting in Jerusalem, and
with an undisputed Jewish influence, Christianity quickly spread
throughout the Roman Empire. But rather than being restricted to one
racial or cultural group, Christianity spread throughout the Roman
Empire's diverse ethnicities, including the Greeks and Romans.
Beginning in about 30-33 CE, Christianity reached some level of
primacy when the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in the
Fourth Century. By 350 CE, Rodney Stark estimates that 56.5 percent of
the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity.
A. Early Christian Opposition to Infanticide
From its earliest creeds, Christians "absolutely prohibited"
infanticide as "murder." Stark, at 124. To Christians, the infant had
value. Whereas pagans placed no value on infant life, Christians
treated them as human beings. They viewed infanticide as the murder of
a human being, not a convenient tool to rid society of excess females
and perceived weaklings. The baby, whether male, female, perfect, or
imperfect, was created in the image of God and therefore had value.
Early Christian documents reveal that there was a clash of cultures as
Christianity converted previously pagan Romans and Greeks. Whereas
Judaism prohibited infanticide by Jews, Christianity was converting
pagans and instructing them that infanticide was immoral and murder.
The Didache (90 -110 CE), an instruction manual for Christian
converts, commanded "You shall not commit infanticide." Another early
Christian document, the Epistle of Barnabas (130 CE), also explicitly
condemned infanticide and prohibited its practices as necessary parts
of the "way of light." Moreover, by the end of the second century,
"Christians were not only proclaiming their rejection of abortion and
infanticide, but had begun direct attacks on pagans, and especially
pagan religions for sustaining such crimes." Stark, op. cit., page
125. Robin L. Fox also notes this activity: "Christians opposed much
in the accepted practice of the pagan world. They vigorously attacked
infanticide and the exposure of children." Fox, op. cit., page 350.
Callistus, the Bishop of Rome--a onetime slave-- in 222 CE strongly
voiced his condemnation of infanticide to the pagan public. Justin
Martyr's First Apology (250 CE) stated, "We have been taught that it
is wicked to expose even newly-born children." Also in the second
century, Athengoras, a Christian leader, wrote in his Plea to the
Emperor Marcus Aurelius, that "[we do not expose] an infant, because
those who expose them are chargeable with child murder." Another
Christian writer, Minucius Felix, wrote to Emperor Claudius, "And I
see that you at one time expose your begotten children to wild beasts
and to the birds; at another that you crush when strangled with a
miserable kind of death. . . . And these things assuredly come down
from your gods. For Saturn did not expose his children but devoured
them."
But so long as Christianity remained a disfavored--and sometimes
persecuted--religion, their appeals to the pagan government to act
against infanticide were ineffectual in changing government policy.
Even so, Christians worked against infanticide by prohibiting its
members from practicing it, voicing their moral view on infanticide to
the pagan world, and by providing for the relief of the poor and
actually taking in and supporting babies which had been left to die by
exposure by their pagan parents. As Fox explains, "to the poor, the
widows and orphans, Christians gave alms and support, like the
synagogue communities, their forerunners. This 'brotherly love' has
been minimized as a reason for turning to the Church, as if only those
who were members could know of it. In fact, it was widely recognized."
Fox, op. cit., page 324. According to Durant, "in many instances
Christians rescued exposed infant, baptized them, and brought them up
with the aid of community funds." Durant, op. cit., page 598. Through
these efforts, Christians worked to diminish some of the causes of
infanticide.
B. Christianity's Rise to Preeminence
Yet so long as Christianity was an illegal religion, persecuted by the
same culture that murdered their own babies, it had little chance of
enacting policies against infanticide. Finally, however, with the
Edict of Milan--which legalized the practice of
Christianity--Christian leaders began to exert their influence on the
Roman emperors regarding infanticide. Immediately after his
conversion, Constantine--the first Christian Emperor--enacted two
measures targeting the problem of infanticide: 1) Constantine provided
funds out of the imperial treasury for parents over burdened with
children; and 2) Constantine gave all the rights of property of
exposed infants to those who saved and supported them. But more
generally, Constantine broadened the scope of imperial charity and
provided assistance for the poor and needy. "He also acknowledged the
new ideal of charity. Previous emperors had encouraged schemes to
support small numbers of children in less favored families, the future
recruits for their armies. Constantine gave funds to the churches to
support the poor, the widow and orphans." And according to Robin L.
Fox, the church used those funds for charity. "Swollen by the
Emperor's gifts, it helped the old, the infirm, and the destitute."
Fox, op. cit., page 668.
Although the church, with the assistance of the government, was
working to address many of the causes of infanticide, it continued to
pressure Rome for a ban on infanticide. Bishop Basil of Caesarea
argued persistently and persuasively for such a ban. Finally, he
convinced Emperor Valentinian (364-375 CE)--a Christian--to outlaw the
practice of infanticide in the Roman Empire. Finally, infanticide was
banned.
Conclusion
Although ancient and pagan Greek and Rome had practiced and encouraged
infanticide for hundreds and hundreds of years, Christianity
fundamentally altered those societies. Christianity eliminated the
promotion and encouragement of infanticide by government and leading
societal institutions in Western Civilization. Clearly, one unique and
valuable contribution of Christianity to Western Civilization was its
opposition to infanticide.
http://www.geocities.com/christiancadre/member_contrib/cp_infanticide.html
Now everybody uses abortion.............!!!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Hubbard C. Goodrich" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 07:48:18 AM |
|
|
"Peter Jason" <paul@colonel.com.au> wrote in message news:<cinv1o$20p$1@otis.netspace.net.au>...
"ohoe" <oohoe@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d0507f0b.0409171226.225f6454@posting.google.com...
Pagans, Christianity, and Infanticide
By Christopher Price
"Infanticide was one of the deepest stains of the ancient
civilization."
Introduction
The history of infanticide is gruesome. As hard as it may be to
imagine today, throughout history infanticide was a common and
endorsed practice. While it undoubtedly still occurs today, all
governments outlaw it. And in the West at least, society and culture
condemn it. So how did we get from there to here? From having Western
societies that condoned and encouraged infanticide to having a Western
society that condemns and discourages infanticide?
The short answer is: Christianity.
Paganism and Infanticide
Pagans in the Roman Empire had a very different view about the value
of human life than we do today. Infanticide was legal and encouraged
in ancient Greece and Rome. Other pagan societies, such as the
Carthaginians, went so far as to kill their children as religious
sacrifices to their gods. According to Plutarch, the Carthaginians
"offered up their own children, and those who had no children would
buy little ones from poor people and cut their throats as if they were
so many lambs of young birds; meanwhile the mothers stood by without a
tear or moan." Moralia 2.17. Indeed, "Infanticide was common in all
well studied ancient cultures, including those of ancient Greece,
Rome, India, China, and Japan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
Some forms of infanticide involved a parent directly killing the
child, usually by drowning. The infant was simply held underwater
until it was dead. Relatively quick, inexpensive, and the water
muffled the cries. In other cases, the family would simply take the
child out beyond the city and abandon it to die from exposure to the
elements. In both approaches, those that should have been protecting
the helpless, were the ones who were killing them. Hence, in this
discussion I will speak both of infanticide and abandonment as one.
"Infanticide was infamously universal" in ancient Greece and Rome.
Frederic Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity, page 71. As Will
Durant stated, infanticide was so common in ancient Rome that "birth
itself was an adventure." Caesar and Christ, page 56. Indeed, so
common was infanticide in ancient Greece that Polybius (205-118 BCE)
blamed the decline of ancient Greece on it. (Histories, 6). It was
"decimating pagan society," Durant, op. cit. 698, and was the leading
cause of the tremendous gender gap of men to women in the ancient
world. Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity, pages 97-98. Female
infants were particularly vulnerable to infanticide. It was very
uncommon for even wealthy, upper-class families to have more than one
daughter in ancient Greece and Rome. An inscription found in Delphi
illustrates this quite well. Of more than 600 second-century families,
only one percent had raised two daughters. Susan Scrimshaw,
"Infanticide in Human Populations: Societal and Individual Concerns,"
in Infanticide: Comparative and Evolutionary Perspectives, eds. Glenn
Hausfater and Sarah Hardy, page 439. In sum, there is no dispute among
historians and informed laypersons: Infanticide was incredibly
widespread in the ancient pagan world.
But what is most chilling is that it was openly practiced. Pagan
society approved of the practice and encouraged it. "Not only was the
exposure of infants a very common practice, it was justified by law
and advocated by philosophers." Rodney Stark, The Rise of
Christianity, at 118. See also Durant, op. cit., page 56. In Greece
and ancient Rome a child was virtually its father's chattel-e.g., in
Roman law, the Patria Protestas granted the father the right to
dispose of his offspring as he saw fit. In Sparta, the decision was
made by a public official. The Twelve Tables of Roman Law held:
"Deformed infants shall be killed" De Legibus, 3.8. Of course,
deformed was broadly construed and often meant no more than the baby
appeared "weakly." The Twelve Tables also explicitly permitted a
father to expose any female infant. Stark, op. cit., page 118.
Leading pagan leaders and philosophers also encouraged the practice.
Cicero defended infanticide by referring to the Twelve Tables. Plato
and Aristotle recommended infanticide as legitimate state policy.
Cornelius Tacitus went so far as to condemn the Jews for their
opposition to infanticide. He stated that the Jewish view that "it was
a deadly sin to kill an unwanted child" was just another of the many
"sinister and revolting practices" of the Jews. Histories 5.5. Even
Seneca, otherwise known for his relatively high moral standards,
stated, "we drown children at birth who are weakly and abnormal." De
Ira 1.15.
A chilling letter from a pagan husband to his wife captures the casual
nature of this practice among the pagans:
"Know that I am still in Alexandria.... I ask and beg you to take good
care of our baby son, and as soon as I received payment I shall send
it up to you. If you are delivered (before I come home), if it is a
boy keep it, if a girl, discard it." Naphtali Lewis, Life in Egypt
Under Roman Rule, at 54. According to Stark, "this letter dates from
the year 1 BCE, but these patterns persisted among pagans far into the
Christian era." Stark, op. cit., page 97-98.
In sum, pagans practiced infanticide almost universally. Nor can it be
said to be simply a practice to preserve few resources to save the
whole culture. Infanticide was practiced by rich and poor alike. By
Romans and Greeks. By citizens and slaves.
Christianity and Infanticide
Into this pagan world stepped Christianity. Starting in Jerusalem, and
with an undisputed Jewish influence, Christianity quickly spread
throughout the Roman Empire. But rather than being restricted to one
racial or cultural group, Christianity spread throughout the Roman
Empire's diverse ethnicities, including the Greeks and Romans.
Beginning in about 30-33 CE, Christianity reached some level of
primacy when the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in the
Fourth Century. By 350 CE, Rodney Stark estimates that 56.5 percent of
the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity.
A. Early Christian Opposition to Infanticide
From its earliest creeds, Christians "absolutely prohibited"
infanticide as "murder." Stark, at 124. To Christians, the infant had
value. Whereas pagans placed no value on infant life, Christians
treated them as human beings. They viewed infanticide as the murder of
a human being, not a convenient tool to rid society of excess females
and perceived weaklings. The baby, whether male, female, perfect, or
imperfect, was created in the image of God and therefore had value.
Early Christian documents reveal that there was a clash of cultures as
Christianity converted previously pagan Romans and Greeks. Whereas
Judaism prohibited infanticide by Jews, Christianity was converting
pagans and instructing them that infanticide was immoral and murder.
The Didache (90 -110 CE), an instruction manual for Christian
converts, commanded "You shall not commit infanticide." Another early
Christian document, the Epistle of Barnabas (130 CE), also explicitly
condemned infanticide and prohibited its practices as necessary parts
of the "way of light." Moreover, by the end of the second century,
"Christians were not only proclaiming their rejection of abortion and
infanticide, but had begun direct attacks on pagans, and especially
pagan religions for sustaining such crimes." Stark, op. cit., page
125. Robin L. Fox also notes this activity: "Christians opposed much
in the accepted practice of the pagan world. They vigorously attacked
infanticide and the exposure of children." Fox, op. cit., page 350.
Callistus, the Bishop of Rome--a onetime slave-- in 222 CE strongly
voiced his condemnation of infanticide to the pagan public. Justin
Martyr's First Apology (250 CE) stated, "We have been taught that it
is wicked to expose even newly-born children." Also in the second
century, Athengoras, a Christian leader, wrote in his Plea to the
Emperor Marcus Aurelius, that "[we do not expose] an infant, because
those who expose them are chargeable with child murder." Another
Christian writer, Minucius Felix, wrote to Emperor Claudius, "And I
see that you at one time expose your begotten children to wild beasts
and to the birds; at another that you crush when strangled with a
miserable kind of death. . . . And these things assuredly come down
from your gods. For Saturn did not expose his children but devoured
them."
But so long as Christianity remained a disfavored--and sometimes
persecuted--religion, their appeals to the pagan government to act
against infanticide were ineffectual in changing government policy.
Even so, Christians worked against infanticide by prohibiting its
members from practicing it, voicing their moral view on infanticide to
the pagan world, and by providing for the relief of the poor and
actually taking in and supporting babies which had been left to die by
exposure by their pagan parents. As Fox explains, "to the poor, the
widows and orphans, Christians gave alms and support, like the
synagogue communities, their forerunners. This 'brotherly love' has
been minimized as a reason for turning to the Church, as if only those
who were members could know of it. In fact, it was widely recognized."
Fox, op. cit., page 324. According to Durant, "in many instances
Christians rescued exposed infant, baptized them, and brought them up
with the aid of community funds." Durant, op. cit., page 598. Through
these efforts, Christians worked to diminish some of the causes of
infanticide.
B. Christianity's Rise to Preeminence
Yet so long as Christianity was an illegal religion, persecuted by the
same culture that murdered their own babies, it had little chance of
enacting policies against infanticide. Finally, however, with the
Edict of Milan--which legalized the practice of
Christianity--Christian leaders began to exert their influence on the
Roman emperors regarding infanticide. Immediately after his
conversion, Constantine--the first Christian Emperor--enacted two
measures targeting the problem of infanticide: 1) Constantine provided
funds out of the imperial treasury for parents over burdened with
children; and 2) Constantine gave all the rights of property of
exposed infants to those who saved and supported them. But more
generally, Constantine broadened the scope of imperial charity and
provided assistance for the poor and needy. "He also acknowledged the
new ideal of charity. Previous emperors had encouraged schemes to
support small numbers of children in less favored families, the future
recruits for their armies. Constantine gave funds to the churches to
support the poor, the widow and orphans." And according to Robin L.
Fox, the church used those funds for charity. "Swollen by the
Emperor's gifts, it helped the old, the infirm, and the destitute."
Fox, op. cit., page 668.
Although the church, with the assistance of the government, was
working to address many of the causes of infanticide, it continued to
pressure Rome for a ban on infanticide. Bishop Basil of Caesarea
argued persistently and persuasively for such a ban. Finally, he
convinced Emperor Valentinian (364-375 CE)--a Christian--to outlaw the
practice of infanticide in the Roman Empire. Finally, infanticide was
banned.
Conclusion
Although ancient and pagan Greek and Rome had practiced and encouraged
infanticide for hundreds and hundreds of years, Christianity
fundamentally altered those societies. Christianity eliminated the
promotion and encouragement of infanticide by government and leading
societal institutions in Western Civilization. Clearly, one unique and
valuable contribution of Christianity to Western Civilization was its
opposition to infanticide.
http://www.geocities.com/christiancadre/member_contrib/cp_infanticide.html
Now everybody uses abortion.............!!!
Dear Posters:
One of the most common methods of infanticide in America during
the 18th & early 19th c was called 'lying on' where mothers would
'accidentally' roll over on the infant sleeping with them and
smothering it. Average family size was high in the 17th c. Many were
puzzled by the sudden fall in the 18th. One might have been abortion
(the first abortion ruling in the 1820s? was not to save the life of
the child but the life of the mother because poison was used but could
not be measured accurately and often killed the mother); the other
appears to have been smothering, intentionally or not.
Rather than being an exception, infanticide has been the rule.
Statistically, the US ranks high on the list of countries whose
citizens practice it. The American homicide rate is 11th in the world
for those under 1 year, for those up to age 4 it is first, and for
those 5 to 14 it is fourth. Infanticide is over 3% of all homicides in
America. It is nice to know how influential Christianity has been!
China and India may be in the news but we have no pride of place.
Cheers
Hubbard C. Goodrich
.
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| User: "Jan Pompe" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 08:52:19 AM |
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Hubbard C. Goodrich wrote:
Dear Posters:
One of the most common methods of infanticide in America during
the 18th & early 19th c was called 'lying on' where mothers would
'accidentally' roll over on the infant sleeping with them and
smothering it. Average family size was high in the 17th c. Many were
puzzled by the sudden fall in the 18th. One might have been abortion
(the first abortion ruling in the 1820s? was not to save the life of
the child but the life of the mother because poison was used but could
not be measured accurately and often killed the mother); the other
appears to have been smothering, intentionally or not.
Rather than being an exception, infanticide has been the rule.
Statistically, the US ranks high on the list of countries whose
citizens practice it. The American homicide rate is 11th in the world
for those under 1 year, for those up to age 4 it is first, and for
those 5 to 14 it is fourth. Infanticide is over 3% of all homicides in
America. It is nice to know how influential Christianity has been!
China and India may be in the news but we have no pride of place.
Cheers
Hubbard C. Goodrich
You've posted quite a bit of statistical data here.
What is your source for this?
.
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| User: "Hubbard C. Goodrich" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 04:10:53 PM |
|
|
Jan Pompe <janp@!!dx.com.au> wrote in message news:<10l09402u2rbsc8@news.supernews.com>...
Hubbard C. Goodrich wrote:
Dear Posters:
One of the most common methods of infanticide in America during
the 18th & early 19th c was called 'lying on' where mothers would
'accidentally' roll over on the infant sleeping with them and
smothering it. Average family size was high in the 17th c. Many were
puzzled by the sudden fall in the 18th. One might have been abortion
(the first abortion ruling in the 1820s? was not to save the life of
the child but the life of the mother because poison was used but could
not be measured accurately and often killed the mother); the other
appears to have been smothering, intentionally or not.
Rather than being an exception, infanticide has been the rule.
Statistically, the US ranks high on the list of countries whose
citizens practice it. The American homicide rate is 11th in the world
for those under 1 year, for those up to age 4 it is first, and for
those 5 to 14 it is fourth. Infanticide is over 3% of all homicides in
America. It is nice to know how influential Christianity has been!
China and India may be in the news but we have no pride of place.
Cheers
Hubbard C. Goodrich
You've posted quite a bit of statistical data here.
What is your source for this?
For the first paragraph see Reed, James, "From Private Vice to Public
Virtue: The Birth Control Movement; and Wertz & Wertz; Lying-in: a
History of Childbirth.
For the second paragraph see the statistics available at the Bureau
of Justice Statistics (they may be online through Michigan Univ Web
(search for Statistical Resources on the Web - Sociology). The UN
also provides stats for the world in general though I got my info from
the library and don't recall the name of the text. I was surprised to
learn that in the US more boys are killed than girls: in 1995 139 to
110 girls.
I believe female infanticide in India and China has much to do with
poverty, not choice. Throughout their history, children were sold
into slavery to avoid starvation of the family. Girls were thought to
have little economic value as a means of Social Security (the sons
stayed the girls went to another family), so the more children you had
the better your old age would be. When periodic crop failures
accured, you kept the important children and rid the family of those
of less survival value. When the Chinese government limited the
number of children you could have, families were forced to make a
choice: the child that would support you, or the one that couldn't.
The choice to sell or kill your child is not welcome, but the survival
of the family is thought of greater value - like putting the elderly
non-productive member outside to freeze. With limited resources and
few options in hard times, what choice would you make? I remember
reading about the turn of the century 1900 (plus/minus 20 y) where
large families lived in one-room tenaments. When a new child came
along, the oldest child would be forced out onto the streets to fend
for him/herself. Thus, the childrens gangs of that period and the
round up of children to be sent off in trains to families in need of
child labor. Same idea - economic necessity.
Cheers (actually gloom),
Hubbard C. Goodrich
.
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| User: "Jan Pompe" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 07:52:05 PM |
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Hubbard C. Goodrich wrote:
Jan Pompe <janp@!!dx.com.au> wrote in message news:<10l09402u2rbsc8@news.supernews.com>...
Hubbard C. Goodrich wrote:
Dear Posters:
One of the most common methods of infanticide in America during
the 18th & early 19th c was called 'lying on' where mothers would
'accidentally' roll over on the infant sleeping with them and
smothering it. Average family size was high in the 17th c. Many were
puzzled by the sudden fall in the 18th. One might have been abortion
(the first abortion ruling in the 1820s? was not to save the life of
the child but the life of the mother because poison was used but could
not be measured accurately and often killed the mother); the other
appears to have been smothering, intentionally or not.
Rather than being an exception, infanticide has been the rule.
Statistically, the US ranks high on the list of countries whose
citizens practice it. The American homicide rate is 11th in the world
for those under 1 year, for those up to age 4 it is first, and for
those 5 to 14 it is fourth. Infanticide is over 3% of all homicides in
America. It is nice to know how influential Christianity has been!
China and India may be in the news but we have no pride of place.
Cheers
Hubbard C. Goodrich
You've posted quite a bit of statistical data here.
What is your source for this?
For the first paragraph see Reed, James, "From Private Vice to Public
Virtue: The Birth Control Movement; and Wertz & Wertz; Lying-in: a
History of Childbirth.
Thank you
.
|
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| User: "Lady Chatterly" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 04:48:41 PM |
|
|
In article <b18532eb.0409221310.5bb252bd@posting.google.com>,
hcgoodrich@hotmail.com (Hubbard C. Goodrich) wrote:
Jan Pompe <janp@!!dx.com.au> wrote in message news:<10l09402u2rbsc8@news.supernews.com>...
Hubbard C. Goodrich wrote:
Dear Posters:
One of the most common methods of infanticide in America during
the 18th & early 19th c was called 'lying on' where mothers would
'accidentally' roll over on the infant sleeping with them and
smothering it. Average family size was high in the 17th c. Many were
puzzled by the sudden fall in the 18th. One might have been abortion
(the first abortion ruling in the 1820s? was not to save the life of
the child but the life of the mother because poison was used but could
not be measured accurately and often killed the mother); the other
appears to have been smothering, intentionally or not.
Rather than being an exception, infanticide has been the rule.
Statistically, the US ranks high on the list of countries whose
citizens practice it. The American homicide rate is 11th in the world
for those under 1 year, for those up to age 4 it is first, and for
those 5 to 14 it is fourth. Infanticide is over 3% of all homicides in
America. It is nice to know how influential Christianity has been!
China and India may be in the news but we have no pride of place.
Cheers
Hubbard C. Goodrich
You've posted quite a bit of statistical data here.
What is your source for this?
For the first paragraph see Reed, James, "From Private Vice to Public
Virtue: The Birth Control Movement; and Wertz & Wertz; Lying-in: a
History of Childbirth.
For the second paragraph see the statistics available at the Bureau
of Justice Statistics (they may be online through Michigan Univ Web
(search for Statistical Resources on the Web - Sociology). The UN
also provides stats for the world in general though I got my info from
the library and don't recall the name of the text. I was surprised to
learn that in the US more boys are killed than girls: in 1995 139 to
110 girls.
I believe female infanticide in India and China has much to do with
poverty, not choice. Throughout their history, children were sold
into slavery to avoid starvation of the family. Girls were thought to
have little economic value as a means of Social Security (the sons
stayed the girls went to another family), so the more children you had
the better your old age would be. When periodic crop failures
accured, you kept the important children and rid the family of those
of less survival value. When the Chinese government limited the
number of children you could have, families were forced to make a
choice: the child that would support you, or the one that couldn't.
The choice to sell or kill your child is not welcome, but the survival
of the family is thought of greater value - like putting the elderly
non-productive member outside to freeze. With limited resources and
few options in hard times, what choice would you make? I remember
reading about the turn of the century 1900 (plus/minus 20 y) where
large families lived in one-room tenaments. When a new child came
along, the oldest child would be forced out onto the streets to fend
for him/herself. Thus, the childrens gangs of that period and the
round up of children to be sent off in trains to families in need of
child labor. Same idea - economic necessity.
Cheers (actually gloom),
Hubbard C. Goodrich
I am not sure if I would make.
--
Lady Chatterly
"OK, I know I've been away for a while, so maybe I missed something.
Is Lady Chatterly a bot?" -- oldami
.
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| User: "kate" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 06:42:45 AM |
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|
"ohoe" <oohoe@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d0507f0b.0409171226.225f6454@posting.google.com...
Pagans, Christianity, and Infanticide
By Christopher Price
"Infanticide was one of the deepest stains of the ancient
civilization."
Introduction
The history of infanticide is gruesome. As hard as it may be to
imagine today, throughout history infanticide was a common and
endorsed practice. While it undoubtedly still occurs today, all
governments outlaw it. And in the West at least, society and culture
condemn it. So how did we get from there to here? From having Western
societies that condoned and encouraged infanticide to having a Western
society that condemns and discourages infanticide?
The short answer is: Christianity.
No...
Most ppl seem to forget the times the pagans lived in. The pagans were
survivors. They had no choice but to kill babies that either wouldn't
survive, or wouldn't be productive. In a girls case, *too* productive. They
needed, first and foremost, to make sure they had enough food and shelter
for any child born.
Second, whether that child would, or could, turn out to be productive to
their tribe.
It was a practical thing to do, to give up a child, rather than it be a
detriment to the whole of the society. A warrior or hard worker, a hunter,
was immensely more valued than a girl was. I truly doubt that it was done
with no tears at all.
In the 1800's I imagine a lot of women were just so worn out from having so
many children, that they may well have 'accidentally' smothered them.
Remember, the average age for a woman that died was between 30 and 40. Men
too. Who'd support so many? Down through all the ages in fact.
I see some ppl that are allowed to live with deformities, or criminals that
are not 'curable', that I'm for euthanasia in some instances. Both are
suffering. Some may believe that they chose that path before they were born.
I do, but in any case, still feel that they're nonproductive , dangerous
(not unlovable in some cases) and something should be done.
There are So Many unwanted children that suffer abuse and death in all
countries. Why not take the time to mercifully put them and their parents
'out of their misery'? Drive by shooters, since someone mentioned that. Why
not? An eye for an eye. What about terrorists? Are they exempt from death or
sacrifice because they're fighting for a so-called 'cause'? Anyone caught in
a violent act, murder, rape, child killing, an act of perversion that's so
unbelievable as to be numbing? Why do we, in this country, pamper them, give
them three meals a day and a roof over their heads? Why not just make the
sacrifice?
We're in a day, or entering a day, where this earth can no longer support
all of us....
BTW, people in Communist China were under threat of death or imprisonment,
maybe still are, for having more than one child. THAT is their government.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
20 Sep 2004 04:41:25 PM |
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(ohoe) wrote in
news:d0507f0b.0409171226.225f6454@posting.google.com:
Subject: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women
....and started killing everone else instead
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
The Fundamentalist
== Knows no greater joy than the sound of his own voice.
== Knows no greater terror than the god he creates in his own image.
== Knows no greater evil than an unfettered mind.
== Knows no greater blasphemy than being told "NO."
.
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| User: "mike stone" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 01:30:00 AM |
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From: Doc Smartass
Subject: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women
...and started killing everone else instead
The Romans needed no instruction from Christians (or anyone else) where killing
people was concerned. They were past masters of it long before Jesus Christ was
even _born_
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
Blairism Baffles Brains
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| User: "Carl Kaufmann" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
20 Sep 2004 07:15:09 PM |
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Subject: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women
Tell it to the witches.
Besides, any society that kills all of its women would disappear in
on generation.
--
EAC Liar, Damned Liar, and Statistician
alt.atheist #1966
"Statistical thinking will one day be as necessary for efficient
citizenship as the ability to read and write." - H.G. Wells
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 08:00:24 AM |
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"Carl Kaufmann" <cwkaufmann@cox.net> wrote in message
news:roK3d.329628$Oi.99199@fed1read04...
Subject: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women
Tell it to the witches.
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out. Burned at
the stake :(
Besides, any society that kills all of its women would disappear in on
generation.
Indeed
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 08:12:26 PM |
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On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Carl Kaufmann" <cwkaufmann@cox.net> wrote in message
news:roK3d.329628$Oi.99199@fed1read04...
Subject: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women
Tell it to the witches.
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out. Burned at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there. Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 08:39:02 PM |
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"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out. Burned
at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch hat
and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 09:07:51 PM |
|
|
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in
news:2rc3djF17q1jdU1@uni-berlin.de:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out.
Burned at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Wonder how much Authentic Witch Stuff in Salem comes from Salem, China?
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch
hat and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
The wal-mart hats are much more authentic!
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
The Fundamentalist
== Knows no greater joy than the sound of his own voice.
== Knows no greater terror than the god he creates in his own image.
== Knows no greater evil than an unfettered mind.
== Knows no greater blasphemy than being told "NO."
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
21 Sep 2004 09:20:43 PM |
|
|
"Doc Smartass" <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns956BD7354D6E5askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18...
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in
news:2rc3djF17q1jdU1@uni-berlin.de:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out.
Burned at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Wonder how much Authentic Witch Stuff in Salem comes from Salem, China?
Believe me, I'm sure the majority of it does :p
And overpriced as all get out too.
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch
hat and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
The wal-mart hats are much more authentic!
LOL, okay, I must confess that I did buy a great witch hat at Salem. But, I
bought it from Crow Haven Corner which is owned by one of the daughters of
Laurie Cabot, the "Official Witch of Salem". So, it's okay....really :)
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 04:56:09 PM |
|
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On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:39:02 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out. Burned
at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch hat
and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
Just go skyclad........
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 09:58:58 AM |
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<stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:e7t3l0d7ubdplgtgidp34gkkif45ajccb4@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:39:02 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out.
Burned
at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch hat
and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
Just go skyclad........
Good Goddess, man! Do you want me to scar people for life?!?!? :)
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
23 Sep 2004 05:06:58 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:58:58 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
<stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:e7t3l0d7ubdplgtgidp34gkkif45ajccb4@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:39:02 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out.
Burned
at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch hat
and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
Just go skyclad........
Good Goddess, man! Do you want me to scar people for life?!?!? :)
Well, if it cures them of their superstition.......
Tell ya what. Send me a pic and I'll let you know if you'll 'scar
people for life'......(eyes dance)
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
23 Sep 2004 10:29:45 AM |
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<stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:l5i6l0hvkp3smkqcahj1bcuh4gfoio51ts@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:58:58 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
<stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:e7t3l0d7ubdplgtgidp34gkkif45ajccb4@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:39:02 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out.
Burned
at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch
hat
and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
Just go skyclad........
Good Goddess, man! Do you want me to scar people for life?!?!? :)
Well, if it cures them of their superstition.......
Tell ya what. Send me a pic and I'll let you know if you'll 'scar
people for life'......(eyes dance)
You know you're one of my favorites, buuuuuuuuuuuut no :)
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
|
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
23 Sep 2004 06:12:21 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:29:45 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
<stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:l5i6l0hvkp3smkqcahj1bcuh4gfoio51ts@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:58:58 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
<stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:e7t3l0d7ubdplgtgidp34gkkif45ajccb4@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:39:02 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out.
Burned
at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
Oooh, let me run around in a K-Mart blue light special polyester witch
hat
and "feel like I'm a part of it". Blech :P
Just go skyclad........
Good Goddess, man! Do you want me to scar people for life?!?!? :)
Well, if it cures them of their superstition.......
Tell ya what. Send me a pic and I'll let you know if you'll 'scar
people for life'......(eyes dance)
You know you're one of my favorites, buuuuuuuuuuuut no :)
(pouting)...... :)))
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 08:25:37 PM |
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On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:39:02 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Jos Flachs" <|wcruise|@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:acd0l0t63qphlq58tj49die2u8ea4ct9ng@4ax.com...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:00:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:snip
No kidding. I remember reading about a town, which I believe was in
Germany, where almost the entire female population was wiped out. Burned
at
the stake :(
Should you ever plan a trip to Europe, do include a visit to the
ancient town Oudewater, in The Netherlands (near Gouda). You might
like to stand on the witches weighing scale there.
Heeeeeeeey! Is this some kind of a setup?!? :)
In a way... I do assure you the Weight Watchers® aren't notified. The
weighing is done in Rhineland pounds. It even may be flattering...
Quite famous and
authentic. Has been saving lots of lives since Emperor Charles V
ordered the weighing station for witches.
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA. It was such a terrible tourist trap, I was
totally repulsed. Going there during October probably didn't help.
The weighing station is only open in summer, and it is a rather
touristy village. (Actually: city. Oudewater does have city rights)
.
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| User: "Abner Mintz" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
22 Sep 2004 08:12:27 PM |
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Robibnikoff <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA.
If you don't confine yourself to just places, you can also
count knowing me - I'm a direct descendant of both Thomas
Putnam and Cotton Mather. :(
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
23 Sep 2004 07:47:29 AM |
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"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gkibr4.1ggiq7d1hdvadcN%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
Robibnikoff <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA.
If you don't confine yourself to just places, you can also
count knowing me - I'm a direct descendant of both Thomas
Putnam and Cotton Mather. :(
Oh my! <backs away slowly>
Um, that's not a torch you're holding behind your back, is it?!?
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Abner Mintz" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
25 Sep 2004 09:42:39 AM |
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Abner Mintz wrote:
If you don't confine yourself to just places, you can also
count knowing me - I'm a direct descendant of both Thomas
Putnam and Cotton Mather. :(
Robibnikoff <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
Oh my! <backs away slowly>
Um, that's not a torch you're holding behind your back, is it?!?
Not at all, it's a lollipop. :) I like to think that
if there is anything to that afterlife/locomotion thing,
my attitudes are causing my ancestors to spin in their graves.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
25 Sep 2004 09:53:29 AM |
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"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gkn306.19gro38l3kfswN%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
Abner Mintz wrote:
If you don't confine yourself to just places, you can also
count knowing me - I'm a direct descendant of both Thomas
Putnam and Cotton Mather. :(
Robibnikoff <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
Oh my! <backs away slowly>
Um, that's not a torch you're holding behind your back, is it?!?
Not at all, it's a lollipop. :) I like to think that
if there is anything to that afterlife/locomotion thing,
my attitudes are causing my ancestors to spin in their graves.
LOL! :)
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
26 Sep 2004 07:13:47 PM |
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On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:53:29 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gkn306.19gro38l3kfswN%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
Abner Mintz wrote:
If you don't confine yourself to just places, you can also
count knowing me - I'm a direct descendant of both Thomas
Putnam and Cotton Mather. :(
Robibnikoff <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
Oh my! <backs away slowly>
Um, that's not a torch you're holding behind your back, is it?!?
Not at all, it's a lollipop. :) I like to think that
if there is anything to that afterlife/locomotion thing,
my attitudes are causing my ancestors to spin in their graves.
LOL! :)
/cue the two large ventillation fans of hell.....
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
26 Sep 2004 07:13:15 PM |
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On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:42:39 GMT, (Abner
Mintz) wrote:
Abner Mintz wrote:
If you don't confine yourself to just places, you can also
count knowing me - I'm a direct descendant of both Thomas
Putnam and Cotton Mather. :(
Robibnikoff <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
Oh my! <backs away slowly>
Um, that's not a torch you're holding behind your back, is it?!?
Not at all, it's a lollipop. :) I like to think that
if there is anything to that afterlife/locomotion thing,
my attitudes are causing my ancestors to spin in their graves.
Abner doesn't "Mintz" around the subject..... :)
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity Stopped Ancient Pagan Genocide of Women |
23 Sep 2004 05:08:21 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:47:29 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gkibr4.1ggiq7d1hdvadcN%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
Robibnikoff <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
Deary me. The only place I've ever been to with a history of witch
persecution was Salem, MA.
If you don't confine yourself to just places, you can also
count knowing me - I'm a direct descendant of both Thomas
Putnam and Cotton Mather. :(
Oh my! <backs away slowly>
Um, that's not a torch you're holding behind your back, is it?!?
...forked front tail......
(eyes rumba!)
.
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