| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Ray Fischer" |
| Date: |
13 Dec 2007 11:15:40 PM |
| Object: |
Christianity's war on Christmas |
CHARLESTON, W.Va. - As Christmas draws near, Pastor John Foster won't
be decorating a tree, shopping for last-minute gifts or working on a
holiday sermon for his flock. After all, it's been 50 years since
Christmas was anything more than a day of the week to him.
He's one of very few American Christians who follow what used to be
the norm in many Protestant denominations - rejecting the
celebration of Christmas on religious grounds.
"People don't think of it this way, but it's really a secular
holiday," said Foster, a Princeton-based pastor in the United Church
of God. He last celebrated Christmas when he was 8.
His church's objection to Christmas is rare among U.S. Christians.
Gallup polls from 1994 to 2005 consistently show that more than 90
percent of adults say they celebrate Christmas, including 84 percent
of non-Christians.
That's a huge change from an earlier era, when many Protestants
ignored or actively opposed the holiday. But as it gradually became
popular as a family celebration, churches followed their members in
making peace with Christmas.
The change didn't happen overnight. Through much of the 19th century,
schools and businesses remained open, Congress met in session and
some churches closed their doors, lest errant worshippers try to
furtively commemorate the day.
"The whole culture didn't stop for Christmas," said Bruce Forbes, a
religious studies professor at Morningside College in Sioux City,
Iowa. "Government went on as usual, business went on as usual, school
went on as usual."
In researching his book, "Christmas: A Candid History," Forbes
discovered that major American denominations - Presbyterians,
Baptists, Quakers, Methodists and Congregationalists - either
ignored the holiday or actively discouraged it until the late 19th
century.
That rejection was rooted in the lack of biblical sanction for Dec.
25 as the date of Jesus' birth, as well as suspicion toward
traditions that developed after the earliest days of Christianity. In
colonial New England, this disapproval extended to actually making
the holiday illegal, with celebration punishable by a fine.
"Some somehow observe the day," wrote Boston Puritan Samuel Sewall on
Christmas Day 1685, "but are vexed, I believe, that the body of
people profane it, and blessed be God no authority yet compels them
to keep it."
Some 322 years later, Sewall might be surprised to see his
congregation - today known as Old South Church - proudly
displaying a decorated Christmas tree outside the church.
"We think it's cheerful and seasonal," said Nancy Taylor, senior
minister of Old South, one of America's most venerable congregations,
counting among its past worshippers not only Sewall but Benjamin
Franklin and Samuel Adams.
Now part of the United Church of Christ, Old South not only has a
Christmas tree, but encourages its 650 or so members to exchange
Christmas presents - although the focus is on charitable
donations and service, rather than shopping.
"We are the descendants of the Puritans and Pilgrims, but we have
loosened up a lot since then," Taylor said. "We have changed and
adapted and I think that's part of why we haven't died out."
Like Sewall's successors, the mainline Protestant churches have
learned to accommodate Christmas. But the change came from the pews
rather than the pulpit.
Christmas benefited from a 19th century "domestication of religion,"
said University of Texas history professor Penne Restad, in which
faith and family were intertwined in a complementary set of values
and beliefs.
Christmas became acceptable as a family-centered holiday, Restad
said, once it lost its overtly religious significance.
At the same time, aspects of the holiday like decorated trees and
gift-giving became status symbols for an aspirant middle class. When
Christmas began its march toward dominance among holidays, it was
because of a change in the culture, not theology.
"In America, the saying is that the minister follows the people, the
people don't follow the minister," Restad said. "This was more of a
sociological change than a religious one. The home and the
marketplace had more sway than the church."
That's partly why Christians like the United Church of God reject the
holiday: They say divine instruction, rather than culture and
society, should determine whether the holiday is appropriate.
"It's common knowledge that Christmas and its customs have nothing to
do with the Bible," said Clyde Kilough, president of the United
Church of God, which has branches all over the world. "The
theological question is quite simple: Is it acceptable to God for
humans to choose to worship him by adopting paganism's most popular
celebrations and calling them Christian?"
There is still lingering unease with the holiday in denominations
that once rejected it. This can be glimpsed in worries about
commercialization and in individual Christians like Phillip Ross.
Ross is an elder at Covenant Presbyterian Church in Vienna, near
Parkersburg. Well-versed in the history of Christianity, Christmas
and Presbyterianism, Ross knows his church historically objected to
Christmas.
On the other hand, Ross is also a father of two, and while he made up
his mind to reject Christmas as a teenager, his children's early
years included gifts, decorations and a tree.
"I have a love-hate relationship with Christmas," he said. "It seems
obvious to me that there's nothing scriptural about it, but that's a
hard sell with children."
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "John D. Wentzky" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 12:22:39 AM |
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You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get axed.
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 01:32:05 AM |
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In article <1jp8j.37888$L%6.4743@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
"John D. Wentzky" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
JDW will be in prison long before that happens.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 08:19:09 PM |
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John D. Wentzky <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
You're going to prison, bigot. You'll have plenty of free time.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 02:09:46 AM |
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One fine day in alt.atheism, "John D. Wentzky" <wxpprofessional@msn.com>
bloodied us up with this:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get axed.
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
All this anger over a Pagan holiday? Tch-tch-tch.
Imagine, if you can, what all this looks like from the outside looking in.
Christians fighting each other over the meaning of a date that was not-so-
arbitrarily chosen as Christ's birthday, a date that shares as much with
reality as Nov. 18, the birthdate of Mickey Mouse. It's almost as if it
never happened <G>.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 08:44:47 AM |
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On Dec 14, 2:09 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
One fine day in alt.atheism, "John D. Wentzky" <wxpprofessio...@msn.com>
bloodied us up with this:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get axed.
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
All this anger over a Pagan holiday? Tch-tch-tch.
Imagine, if you can, what all this looks like from the outside looking in.
Christians fighting each other over the meaning of a date that was not-so-
arbitrarily chosen as Christ's birthday, a date that shares as much with
reality as Nov. 18, the birthdate of Mickey Mouse. It's almost as if it
never happened <G>.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about : The Creator coming to earth to set us free from our bondage
to sin and its destructive consequences (as can be seen readily in
todays c ulture). Theres no greater love than the Creator whos
infinite coming to Eaeth to be rejected and shunned so we could be
reconciled to God. Now, is the time to stop the shunning and willful
defaming of CHrist and Christmas --- recieve him and Christmas
instead and youll never be regretful you did. Simple faith in
Christ....is all it takes for your life to be vastly different. Its
Gods free undeserved gift for you at Christmas. No..its not about the
practice of Religion..its about a personal relationship with your
Creator, the Universes Creator.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 02:49:26 PM |
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<IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4d0c7a04-0cc8-4d07-806f-2dcf2afe6372@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 14, 2:09 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
One fine day in alt.atheism, "John D. Wentzky" <wxpprofessio...@msn.com>
bloodied us up with this:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get axed.
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
All this anger over a Pagan holiday? Tch-tch-tch.
Imagine, if you can, what all this looks like from the outside looking
in.
Christians fighting each other over the meaning of a date that was
not-so-
arbitrarily chosen as Christ's birthday, a date that shares as much with
reality as Nov. 18, the birthdate of Mickey Mouse. It's almost as if it
never happened <G>.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about :
The Solstice. Gotcha.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "Hollis Brown" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 08:58:29 AM |
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On Dec 14, 7:44 am, wrote:
On Dec 14, 2:09 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
One fine day in alt.atheism, "John D. Wentzky" <wxpprofessio...@msn.com>
bloodied us up with this:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get axed.
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
All this anger over a Pagan holiday? Tch-tch-tch.
Imagine, if you can, what all this looks like from the outside looking in.
Christians fighting each other over the meaning of a date that was not-so-
arbitrarily chosen as Christ's birthday, a date that shares as much with
reality as Nov. 18, the birthdate of Mickey Mouse. It's almost as if it
never happened <G>.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about : The Creator coming to earth to set us free from our bondage
to sin and its destructive consequences (as can be seen readily in
todays c ulture). Theres no greater love than the Creator whos
infinite coming to Eaeth to be rejected and shunned so we could be
reconciled to God. Now, is the time to stop the shunning and willful
defaming of CHrist and Christmas --- recieve him and Christmas
instead and youll never be regretful you did. Simple faith in
Christ....is all it takes for your life to be vastly different. Its
Gods free undeserved gift for you at Christmas. No..its not about the
practice of Religion..its about a personal relationship with your
Creator, the Universes Creator.- Hide quoted text -
Happy Holidays!
HB
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| User: "The Doge of St. Louis" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 04:35:21 PM |
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In article
<ec249809-7853-4c36-aa06-f59ac3280390@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Hollis Brown <AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote:
[..]
Happy Holidays!
Hah! I'm reporting you to Bill O'Reilly's Christmas Police. >:-)
--
<*> ObQuote: "Every nut who kills people has a Bible lying around." - Penn Jillette
======================================================================
<*>The_Doge of St. Louis Stage, screen, radio
http://www.pobox.com/~thedoge/ http://www.stageleft.org
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gwyne=F0_Bennetdottir?=" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 09:22:40 AM |
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On Dec 14, 3:58 pm, Hollis Brown <AT_Tapp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 14, 7:44 am, wrote:
On Dec 14, 2:09 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
One fine day in alt.atheism, "John D. Wentzky" <wxpprofessio...@msn.com>
bloodied us up with this:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get axed.
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
All this anger over a Pagan holiday? Tch-tch-tch.
Imagine, if you can, what all this looks like from the outside looking in.
Christians fighting each other over the meaning of a date that was not-so-
arbitrarily chosen as Christ's birthday, a date that shares as much with
reality as Nov. 18, the birthdate of Mickey Mouse. It's almost as if it
never happened <G>.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about : The Creator coming to earth to set us free from our bondage
to sin and its destructive consequences (as can be seen readily in
todays c ulture). Theres no greater love than the Creator whos
infinite coming to Eaeth to be rejected and shunned so we could be
reconciled to God. Now, is the time to stop the shunning and willful
defaming of CHrist and Christmas --- recieve him and Christmas
instead and youll never be regretful you did. Simple faith in
Christ....is all it takes for your life to be vastly different. Its
Gods free undeserved gift for you at Christmas. No..its not about the
practice of Religion..its about a personal relationship with your
Creator, the Universes Creator.- Hide quoted text -
Happy Holidays!
HB- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Season's Greetings, to you, HB!
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| User: "Syd M." |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 03:21:47 PM |
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On Dec 14, 9:44 am, wrote:
On Dec 14, 2:09 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
One fine day in alt.atheism, "John D. Wentzky" <wxpprofessio...@msn.com>
bloodied us up with this:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last ditch
effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get axed.
How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards if the
anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
All this anger over a Pagan holiday? Tch-tch-tch.
Imagine, if you can, what all this looks like from the outside looking in.
Christians fighting each other over the meaning of a date that was not-so-
arbitrarily chosen as Christ's birthday, a date that shares as much with
reality as Nov. 18, the birthdate of Mickey Mouse. It's almost as if it
never happened <G>.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about : The Creator coming to earth to set us free from our bondage
to sin and its destructive consequences (as can be seen readily in
todays c ulture). Theres no greater love than the Creator whos
infinite coming to Eaeth to be rejected and shunned so we could be
reconciled to God. Now, is the time to stop the shunning and willful
defaming of CHrist and Christmas --- recieve him and Christmas
instead and youll never be regretful you did. Simple faith in
Christ....is all it takes for your life to be vastly different. Its
Gods free undeserved gift for you at Christmas. No..its not about the
practice of Religion..its about a personal relationship with your
Creator, the Universes Creator.
I don't believe you.
PDW
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 09:02:16 AM |
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On Dec 14, 9:44 am, wrote:
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about :
Interesting choice of words: first. Your mythical Christ is a relative
newcomer to the midwinter celebration, so if we are using a time
priori, he can easily he cut out.
So the reason for the season is people being glad that earth isn't
getting continually darker and colder. If you want to any your
particular myth structure to that, fine,...but don't apply it to
things who aren't in your religion, especially to things that predate
it.
Hatter
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 01:12:41 PM |
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On Dec 14, 9:44 am, wrote:
[snip]
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about :
[snip]
Oh I intend to. Since Christmas was originally a pagan holiday with
lots of food and drink, basically a time for debauchery. That's how
it should be celebrated.
The Christians hijacked the holiday because they couldn't stand seeing
the pagans having such a good time.
Besides since biblical scholars say the birthday of your Jesus isn't
anywhere near Dec 25th. Wouldn't you want to celebrate it on the
actual day or at least near it?
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Christianity's war on Christmas |
14 Dec 2007 12:17:49 PM |
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One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up with
this:
On Dec 14, 2:09 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
One fine day in alt.atheism, "John D. Wentzky"
<wxpprofessio...@msn.com> bloodied us up with this:
You mean that fischer has nothing better to do than lie in a last
ditch effort to rid anti-christianity of its shame?
"Tape Sticks It to Anti-Christian Teacher "
lol
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LK07L30&f=WA07L24
Looks like the anti-christian, anti-usa teacher is going to get
axed. How about those charges of treason that can ensue afterwards
if the anti-christians fail to learn how to behave themselves?
All this anger over a Pagan holiday? Tch-tch-tch.
Imagine, if you can, what all this looks like from the outside
looking in. Christians fighting each other over the meaning of a
date that was not-so- arbitrarily chosen as Christ's birthday, a date
that shares as much with reality as Nov. 18, the birthdate of Mickey
Mouse. It's almost as if it never happened <G>.
REPLY: Celebrate Christmas first and foremost for what it is all
about : The Creator coming to earth to set us free from our bondage
to sin and its destructive consequences (as can be seen readily in
todays c ulture). Theres no greater love than the Creator whos
infinite coming to Eaeth to be rejected and shunned so we could be
reconciled to God. Now, is the time to stop the shunning and willful
defaming of CHrist and Christmas --- recieve him and Christmas
instead and youll never be regretful you did. Simple faith in
Christ....is all it takes for your life to be vastly different. Its
Gods free undeserved gift for you at Christmas. No..its not about the
practice of Religion..its about a personal relationship with your
Creator, the Universes Creator.
A creator you have no evidence even exists? Nah, I'll pass.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
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