"sAnToLiNa" <mystery@babylon.com> wrote in message
news:336dabF3t220pU1@individual.net...
<snip to>

Yes. One is; because Christmas (and the holidays from which it derived)

always religious in nature. Without religion there would BE no
Christmas/winter solstice celebration.

There would be Fourth of July's, Memorial Days, Labor Days, New Years Days
et. al, because none of those ever celebrated religious things, nor were
they religious in origin. Christmas, however, is. There is no other reason
to celebrate it. None.

I mean, consider; it's the dumbest time of the year there is to 'just have

party'. One year before the big New Year's Celebration (in the west), at

beginning of winter, almost immediately after the harvest festivals;
cramming one more party in the middle of others, what IS that?

Wouldn't it be more logical to move the celebration to, say, February or
March, when we sufferers of winter not only need the break more, but are
more rested from earlier celebrations and ready to HAVE one?

But no; y'all have a party on Christmas Day, a day historically important

nobody at all for anything at all...except religious people.

And one is not necessarily "promoting religion" by celebrating

as
you claimed earlier.

Only if you are willing to believe that the Marlboro man on the billboard
isn't promoting smoking...

Or that the movie scene with the characters drinking clearly marked
Starbucks coffee isn't promoting Starbucks, even when the scene itself has
nothing to do with the purchasing, making or even drinking coffee.

is aware of this even if you aren't. Companies pay very large bucks to get
'product placement' in movies; a coke can here, a Starbucks there, a brand
new Mustang in that driveway, even if the scene isn't about any of it, the
very fact that they are in the picture promotes them.

And the very fact that you have a celebration on the 25th of December, and
use traditions that were invented, and used for millenia, by religions
promotes religion. IT's not a case of "should it", or 'can it", or

we should be careful about promoting religion". You simply do.

However, you have it your way, celebrate it your way, and I hope indeed

you have had a wonderful Christmas day, however you celebrated it.

They celebrate the founding
of a nation, the fallen military heros, other accomplishments of

is

being honored that day.

Right, and you aren't necessarily promoting secularism by observing

holidays with origins in secular events, just as you aren't necessarily
"promoting religion" by observing Christmas.

I'm not the one who claimed they WERE promoting secularism.

That was you.

I'm the one who claimed that they supported their individual

and historical anniversaries.

Christmas...well, that celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ

(RELIGIOUS) or
winter solstace celebrations, also religious.

There is no non-religious
anniversary or reason to celebrate either. It's only been VERY recently

terms of human history) that the solstice was understood as celestial
mechanics unchangable by human action..or inaction.

Before that, though very
observent people noticed the day shortening and the turn around 'round

now, there was no idea that this phenomenon was permanent. In fact, it
scared the snot out of 'em. There was no guarantee that the days would

lengthening again, y'know, not to them. Thus the winter solstice rituals

celebrations began; to propitiate the gods into liking them again, and
cajoling them into turning the sun around so that the spring would return.

We have no evidence, none whatsoever, that any celebrations of the winter
solstices were simply mathematical symposia on celestial mechanics

by a beer bust. ALL evidence we have, as far back as we can look, in as

cultures as have been looked at, show that these rituals and celebrations
were religious.

Just as Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ, and is timed around,
and
has taken the traditions from, a holiday that celebrated the coming

of

the sun and longer days.

Christmas celebrates much more than the birth of Christ, quite

In fact, the birth of Christ isn't even especially important to the
christian myth. Two of the four Gospels don't even consider it worth
mentioning.

"Christmas" celebrates only the birth of Christ.

However, if you have been
paying attention at all, even to the post to which yours is a reply, you
would already know that this holiday is not only about being 'Christmas".
It's only been Christmas for about fifteen hundred years. Before that, and
right along side it, is the winter solstice thing from other faiths. I

been very clear about where our traditions come from.

But all of the things that Christmas/Winter Solstice is about are

Or, if not treated as such now, certainly owe their very existance to
religion.

If you take religion out of Christmas, what the flip is it you are
celebrating, specifically?

I think I've already mentioned it. Day off from work, getting together
with
my family and exchanging gifts and eating and relaxing, and, most
importantly, a brief interlude of happiness in the darkest and coldest
part
of the year. None of these things has anything to do with the Jesus

except gift-giving, and even that in only a very ancillary way.

But...it's NOT the 'darkest and coldest part of the year". Darkest,

I'll give you. But 'coldest'? Hardly. That is reserved for a month or two
from now. December 25th has nothing on the middle of February for sheer
'miserable'. So why not celebrate all this stuff then?

"Day off from work"?

Well, you can take a personal day any time you want to
, correct? Vacation, or sick, or just do a weekend? After all, today is
Saturday, you might well have the day off anyway. You have THIS day off

Christ

....or (shrug) winter solstice...and you get some of the benefits of
their celebrations. Well, welcome to them. I hope very much that you have
had a glorious Christmas day.

But you wouldn't HAVE this day, if it weren't for the religious. You'd

to come up with your own traditions, your own date and day off.