I have only just begun making my case that Hitler
a) was an atheism-adherent,

AC wrote:

On 25 Oct 2005 15:04:14 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:

AC wrote:

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:40:18 -0500,
James <spamblock@com.com> wrote:

This guy has posted these exact same links a dozen times over. Other
users have picked them clean and shown them to be utter garbage. Why
David insists on reposting claims so furiously absurd is completely
beyond me.

David Ford is a major advocate of the Big Lie. If you repeat the same
nonsense and garbled notions frequently enough, then at some point it will
be taken for true. It's my opinion that David doesn't himself actually
believe any of this, but rather he's trying to hone his immoral propoganda
for use elsewhere.

Aaron, do you agree with any of the Goebbels below?

12 May 1943 Goebbels
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1120260213.363834.164990%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
The Fuehrer spoke very derogatorily about the arrogance
of the higher and lower clergy. The insanity of the
Christian doctrine of redemption really doesn't fit at all
into our time. Nevertheless there are learned, educated
men, occupying high positions in public life, who cling to it
with the faith of a child. It is simply incomprehensible
how anybody can consider the Christian doctrine of
redemption as a guide for the difficult life of today. The
Fuehrer cited a number of exceptionally drastic and in

part even grotesque examples. The opinionated "sky pilots"
[clergy members -df] of course know exactly how the world is
constituted. Whereas the most learned and wisest
scientists struggle for a whole lifetime to study but one of
the mysterious laws of nature, a little country priest from
Bavaria is in a position to decide this matter on the basis
of his religious knowledge. One can regard such a
disgusting performance only with disdain. A church that

does not keep step with modern scientific knowledge is
doomed. It may take quite a while, but it is bound finally
to happen. Anybody who is firmly rooted in daily life, and
who can only faintly imagine the mystic secrets of nature,
will naturally be extremely modest about the universe.
The clerics, however, who have not caught a breath of
such modesty, evidence a sovereign opinionated attitude
toward questions of the universe....

1924 or 1925 Hitler: "today these sky-pilots [i.e. members of
the clergy]... force their drivel on the world."
Hitler, Adolf. _Mein Kampf_ at
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch11.html
Only after the enslavement of subjected races did the
same fate strike beasts, and not the other way around, as
some people would like to think. For first the conquered
warrior drew the plow-and only after him the horse. Only
pacifistic fools can regard this as a sign of human
depravity, failing to realize that this development had to
take place in order to reach the point where today these
sky-pilots [i.e. members of the clergy, judging by the
Goebbels diaries' use of the phrase] could force their
drivel on the world.
The progress of humanity is like climbing an endless
ladder....

Hitler was an adherent of atheism.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129143372.689763.127020%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128308336.450775.177530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Hitler wasn't an atheist, David, any more than he was a homosexual.

"Hitler wasn't an atheist"
Upon what basis/ grounds do you believe that?

I have only just begun making my case that Hitler
a) was an atheism-adherent, and
b) engaged in homosexual activity.
Lurkers may wish to review:

2002 Allen Barra review on salon.com of Machtan's _The Hidden Hitler_
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2002/01/14/machtan/
Hitler was an adherent of atheism and engaged in homosexual activity
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129143372.689763.127020%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128308336.450775.177530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

I tell you what, David. When you have the guts to answer my question, then
we'll talk about Hitler and Darwin:

Were there any Christians building and maintaining the gas chambers and
ovens where millions of Jews were murdered? Were there any Christians
working on the railways that transported Jews to their doom in Nazi-occupied
Europe? Were there any Christians seizing Jewish property when the Jews
were dispossed and herded into concentration camps? Were there any
Christians in the bureaucracy of the Holocaust.

I've done very little investigation of the beliefs of German
individuals. Well, I have learned that Hitler was an adherent of
atheism.

What's the definition of [AC]"Christians"?
Do you consider members of "The German Christians' Faith Movement" to
be [AC]"Christians"?
Do you consider Krause a [AC]"Christia[n]"?

I suspect that the 3,000 German pastors faction that was pro-Hitler--
the 'German Christians' group-- had moved very, _very_ far from
orthodox Protestant Christianity-- so much so that they ought not be
regarded as 'Christians.' To illustrate, the Berlin district leader of
"The German Christians' Faith Movement," Reinhardt Krause, proposed at
a 13 November 1933 rally that the Old Testament be abandoned, and
advocated that Jesus' New Testament teachings be revised along lines
[Krause]"corresponding entirely with the demands of National
Socialism."[Shirer, 326, 328]

National Socialism was a Judeo-Christian-God-less secular religion.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
theological disputes among German Protestants
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.176548.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

Hitler's secular religion
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1120837574.592972.268980%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1117657689.616680.167840%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Now, for all of those out there, David won't answer this question. David
will try to answer with "what's a Christian" or something else. He's too
afraid to answer the question, because he either has to invoke a fallacious
No True Scotsman Argument or admit that Christianity did not lead to the
moral action of deposing the Nazis and saving six million Jews.

Now, for all of those out there, Aaron won't explain what the
definition of [AC]"Christians" is.
He leaves a key word in his question undefined, despite numerous
requests for the definition.

"Christianity did not lead to the moral action of deposing the Nazis
and saving six million Jews."
This statement is accurate:
'_fill in the blank with anything_ did not lead to the deposing of the
Nazis and saving six million Jews.'

Churches resisted Hitler
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128561942.412167.145530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Also in the political resistance movement did the representatives of
the Catholic Church play an important role. Here the pater of the
Jesuites Delp ought to be mentioned before all others; he
participated
in the conspiracy that led to the 20th July [1944 attempt to
assassinate Hitler -df]. Later on Delp was executed by the Gestapo.
....
By this Bonhoffer became an important figure in the preparations for
the Coup d'Etat of 20 July 1944. He was later executed. Dr. George
Bell, Bishop of Chichester, possesses information on all the details
of
their work. 1st Lt. Steltzer worked in the same direction. He held
contact with the Norwegian bishop Berggrave, who can certify as to
the
correctness of this statement.

Speaking of [AC]"saving six million Jews," President FDR, a
typically-revered Democrat President lest we forget, did essentially
_nothing_ AFAICT to allow Jews fleeing Nazi Germany find safe harbor on
American soil.

AC wrote:<snipped>

I tell you what, David. When you have the guts to answer my question, then
we'll talk about Hitler and Darwin:

Were there any Christians building and maintaining the gas chambers and
ovens where millions of Jews were murdered? Were there any Christians
working on the railways that transported Jews to their doom in Nazi-occupied
Europe? Were there any Christians seizing Jewish property when the Jews
were dispossed and herded into concentration camps? Were there any
Christians in the bureaucracy of the Holocaust.

Now, for all of those out there, David won't answer this question. David
will try to answer with "what's a Christian" or something else. He's too
afraid to answer the question, because he either has to invoke a fallacious
No True Scotsman Argument or admit that Christianity did not lead to the
moral action of deposing the Nazis and saving six million Jews.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com

There was an interesting titbit from an orbituary of Simon Wiesenthal
which I read recently. At one time he was rounded up with a group of
other Jews in a town in Poland. An SS officer made them kneel, and went
down the line, shooting them in the head one by one. Then the bells of
a local church rang, and the office and his troop went off to pray.
Wiesenthal used the opportuntity to escape.

I guess that SS officer thought that he was a Christian.

AC wrote:<snipped>

I tell you what, David. When you have the guts to answer my question, then
we'll talk about Hitler and Darwin:

Were there any Christians building and maintaining the gas chambers and
ovens where millions of Jews were murdered? Were there any Christians
working on the railways that transported Jews to their doom in Nazi-occupied
Europe? Were there any Christians seizing Jewish property when the Jews
were dispossed and herded into concentration camps? Were there any
Christians in the bureaucracy of the Holocaust.

Now, for all of those out there, David won't answer this question. David
will try to answer with "what's a Christian" or something else. He's too
afraid to answer the question, because he either has to invoke a fallacious
No True Scotsman Argument or admit that Christianity did not lead to the
moral action of deposing the Nazis and saving six million Jews.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com

There was an interesting titbit from an orbituary of Simon Wiesenthal
which I read recently. At one time he was rounded up with a group of
other Jews in a town in Poland. An SS officer made them kneel, and went
down the line, shooting them in the head one by one. Then the bells of
a local church rang, and the office and his troop went off to pray.
Wiesenthal used the opportuntity to escape.

I guess that SS officer thought that he was a Christian.

RF

James wrote:

Mike Lepore wrote:

"John Baker" wrote:

Evidence to back up the claim: zero. Par for the course for Ford.

True, but it's also important to realize that, even if he were right in his
claim that Hitler did his deeds in the name of Darwin, it would still be
no reflection whatsoever on Darwin.

Yes, that's an important distinction to make. Regardless of the
premise, guilt by association won't provide a reliable conclusion. As
David knows perfectly well, since this (on top of the other glaring
errors he has made) has also been pointed out to him on several occasions.

"glaring errors he [df] has made"
Examples?