| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Dan Harbor" |
| Date: |
31 Aug 2004 09:48:18 AM |
| Object: |
close-minded atheists! |
Puck Greenman <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message news:<3ei8j0pv909crnevmpg8p78pc29rphtdpl@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:42:18 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@Christfirst.com> wrote:
"Puck Greenman" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:oe7ui0lb6i55smarcl3lhskuitjrb0rq6n@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:49:33 +0800, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
I'll post where I please, Frank.
--
Puck Greenman
And I will be pleased to read your posts wherever you're
pleased to hang them.
I just hate it when I, Christian, post to alt. atheism and
some non-believer thinks its his "sacred" duty to jump to the
defence of that group (as if defending the honor of his wife
or daughter) and orders me, not politely, to refrain from posting
to that any atheism group. As if Christians can't learn anything from
atheists or agnostics. Libertarius for one shows this is not so.
Thus, we have folk over on alt.atheism who don't even realize they are
defined abundantly by their hostility to fundamentalists (and that is not good)
and don't have a clue many modern Christians have moved on from the
medieval matrix to more enlightened positions re New and Old Testament
studies. So the offending/offenisve atheists concerned are more
fundamentalist than their believing enemies i.e. more closed minded
(not good, either).
.
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| User: "BMR" |
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| Title: Re: close-minded atheists! |
31 Aug 2004 04:50:32 PM |
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"Dan Harbor" <dharbor2003@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:e3eccc04.0408310648.5368d5df@posting.google.com...
<snip>
Thus, we have folk over on alt.atheism who don't even realize they are
defined abundantly by their hostility to fundamentalists (and that is not
good)
and don't have a clue many modern Christians have moved on from the
medieval matrix to more enlightened positions re New and Old Testament
studies. So the offending/offenisve atheists concerned are more
fundamentalist than their believing enemies i.e. more closed minded
(not good, either).
Maybe we are starting from the wrong viewport. Inbetween two opposite
opinions, only one must be true: they cannot be both true. When you say "it
is my freedom to believe in what I believe, so do you", this is just a
temporary escamotage to damp the contrast. It is nothing but a vulgar form
of argument "ad ignorantiam".
Believers think to be in their right, but *never* scrutiny the real basis of
their religious claims ('cause this could lead to quit the stream), because
most of them are simply repeating what they learned from their youth by
professionals of "spirituality", who lean on commons fears of mankind, that
is death principally.
Rather, atheists are able to see the internal flaws of believers' dogmatism,
immediately. Thus, they often could get enraged "apriori" for the steadfast
resolution which the former bear forth, without applying any ethical
analysis unto their belief.
The so-called atheists' bias which some believers (either "fundamentalists"
or "ecleptic") are fond to speak of, is just a reaction to a sturdy
presumption inherited form claims about things whose demonstration dwells
just in an exercise of flawed "logic". And to demonstrate that is flawed,
often one might need some very articulate discussions, which not always can
be understood by people who are steadfast to their original position.
If a believer enters a atheists' group, whatever modus operandi he might use
to discuss his issues, he's there in order to put a *discrimen* about that
issue; so, contrast might arise forcibly, either politely or vulgarly.
Anyway, it is *false* that "atheists" (I hate this term, 'cause it involve a
self-discrimination) don't make any differences between various kind of
believers.
--
B. Catalano
www.alexamenos.com
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| User: "Godfrey" |
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| Title: Re: close-minded atheists! |
31 Aug 2004 02:42:17 PM |
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Dan:
I understand your frustration- I have encountered the attitude to
which you refer, both here and in Christian newsgroups.
I, for one, value honest debate and do not engage in mindless swiping
because I see little use in it. I do believe that Christians and
atheists can have a civil discourse; in fact I have close friends who
are Christian (although less so than when they met me!) and I find
that our converstations are usually fruitful and, what's more,
respectful.
The lashing out which you have experienced is not an atheist trait so
much as a human trait, an attempt to denigrate those who don't agree
with our viewpoint in an attempt to validate that viewpoint. Believe
me, Christians are every bit as vulnerable to this propensity as
atheists.
I am comfortable with my viewpoint and don't require the validation,
so feel free to speak your mind- I'll answer in kind.
Godfrey
On 31 Aug 2004 07:48:18 -0700, (Dan Harbor)
wrote:
Puck Greenman <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message news:<3ei8j0pv909crnevmpg8p78pc29rphtdpl@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:42:18 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@Christfirst.com> wrote:
"Puck Greenman" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:oe7ui0lb6i55smarcl3lhskuitjrb0rq6n@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:49:33 +0800, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
I'll post where I please, Frank.
--
Puck Greenman
And I will be pleased to read your posts wherever you're
pleased to hang them.
I just hate it when I, Christian, post to alt. atheism and
some non-believer thinks its his "sacred" duty to jump to the
defence of that group (as if defending the honor of his wife
or daughter) and orders me, not politely, to refrain from posting
to that any atheism group. As if Christians can't learn anything from
atheists or agnostics. Libertarius for one shows this is not so.
Thus, we have folk over on alt.atheism who don't even realize they are
defined abundantly by their hostility to fundamentalists (and that is not good)
and don't have a clue many modern Christians have moved on from the
medieval matrix to more enlightened positions re New and Old Testament
studies. So the offending/offenisve atheists concerned are more
fundamentalist than their believing enemies i.e. more closed minded
(not good, either).
.
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: close-minded atheists! |
31 Aug 2004 12:40:39 PM |
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On Tue 31 Aug 2004 09:48:18a, (Dan Harbor) kicked
back with a beer, ruminated at length, fell asleep, woke up, lit up a
joint, then fell asleep again after thoughtfully blurting out:
Thus, we have folk over on alt.atheism who don't even realize they
are
defined abundantly by their hostility to fundamentalists (and that is
not good) and don't have a clue many modern Christians have moved on
from the medieval matrix to more enlightened positions re New and Old
Testament studies. So the offending/offenisve atheists concerned are
more fundamentalist than their believing enemies i.e. more closed
minded (not good, either).
This is true as far as it goes. However, consider the situation. The
folks here at alt.atheism, as far as I've seen, do not have a problem
with open-minded Christians. The issue is with fundamentalists who
cannot accept anyone who thinks even slightly different than they do.
I suppose it's right of you, in one sense, to condemn the denizens here
for their automatic hostility to Christians who have not proven
themselves. Do you think that it would be any different if you, a
(presumably straight) Christian, walked into a gay bar and announced
that you were a straight Christian? How about a Russian military
officer walking into a bar full of the families of dead Chechnyan
rebels? Or a rich white man walking into an exclusively black bar?
Why is this the case? Because when people have been damaged, offended,
attacked, and so on by a particular group, then trusting any member of
that group quickly begins to seem like putting one's head into a lion's
mouth on the off chance that he won't bite it off. It's not right, it's
not fair, but what the hell else do you expect us to do? When we have
endured as much grief at the hands of fundamentalist Christians as many
members of this group have, can you reasonably expect us to welcome
Christians we don't know with open arms?
Yes, once we know you and know that you are a good person who won't stab
us in the back like half of the Christians we've met, we'll gladly
welcome you with open arms. You wouldn't be the first Christian to be a
liked and respected poster at alt.atheism, and you wouldn't be the last,
either. But we won't give you the benefit of the doubt, and as
prejudiced as that seems, it's a survival instinct on our parts.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: close-minded atheists! |
01 Sep 2004 09:22:18 AM |
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:48:18 -0700 in episode
<e3eccc04.0408310648.5368d5df@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
dharbor2003@yahoo.com (Dan Harbor):
Puck Greenman <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:<3ei8j0pv909crnevmpg8p78pc29rphtdpl@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:42:18 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PF@Christfirst.com>
wrote:
"Puck Greenman" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:oe7ui0lb6i55smarcl3lhskuitjrb0rq6n@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:49:33 +0800, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
I'll post where I please, Frank.
--
Puck Greenman
And I will be pleased to read your posts wherever you're pleased to hang
them.
I just hate it when I, Christian, post to alt. atheism and some
non-believer thinks its his "sacred" duty to jump to the defence of that
group (as if defending the honor of his wife or daughter) and orders me,
not politely, to refrain from posting to that any atheism group. As if
Christians can't learn anything from atheists or agnostics. Libertarius
for one shows this is not so.
Thus, we have folk over on alt.atheism who don't even realize they are
defined abundantly by their hostility to fundamentalists (and that is not
good) and don't have a clue many modern Christians have moved on from the
medieval matrix to more enlightened positions re New and Old Testament
studies. So the offending/offenisve atheists concerned are more
fundamentalist than their believing enemies i.e. more closed minded (not
good, either).
Actually it means atheists are human. The amount of hostility directed at
this newsgroup by Christians can make you jumpy after a while.
Funny thing. That really shouldn't be possible if Christianity had
anything to it. Yet, there it is...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: close-minded atheists! |
01 Sep 2004 10:46:54 AM |
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On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:22:18 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:48:18 -0700 in episode
<e3eccc04.0408310648.5368d5df@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
dharbor2003@yahoo.com (Dan Harbor):
Puck Greenman <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:<3ei8j0pv909crnevmpg8p78pc29rphtdpl@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:42:18 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PF@Christfirst.com>
wrote:
"Puck Greenman" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:oe7ui0lb6i55smarcl3lhskuitjrb0rq6n@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:49:33 +0800, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
I'll post where I please, Frank.
--
Puck Greenman
And I will be pleased to read your posts wherever you're pleased to hang
them.
I just hate it when I, Christian, post to alt. atheism and some
non-believer thinks its his "sacred" duty to jump to the defence of that
group (as if defending the honor of his wife or daughter) and orders me,
not politely, to refrain from posting to that any atheism group. As if
Christians can't learn anything from atheists or agnostics. Libertarius
for one shows this is not so.
Then don't tell falsehoods about atheists to the group.
Thus, we have folk over on alt.atheism who don't even realize they are
defined abundantly by their hostility to fundamentalists (and that is not
good) and don't have a clue many modern Christians have moved on from the
medieval matrix to more enlightened positions re New and Old Testament
studies. So the offending/offenisve atheists concerned are more
fundamentalist than their believing enemies i.e. more closed minded (not
good, either).
It's remarks like the above that cause ***** Christians to get
jumped on.
Actually it means atheists are human. The amount of hostility directed at
this newsgroup by Christians can make you jumpy after a while.
Funny thing. That really shouldn't be possible if Christianity had
anything to it. Yet, there it is...
.
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