| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
15 Nov 2006 11:13:35 AM |
| Object: |
Closet Atheist |
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
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| User: "G-Ride" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 05:28:22 PM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
My immediate family all know that I'm an atheist. I am alone in that
regard - parent's still pretty devout xtians, brothers all believe to
varying degrees. 2 are regular church attenders. Third one not so much. I
grew up as a xtian and came to atheism in my early twenties, 10+ years ago.
My grandparents don't know about my lack of faith, at least not from me. My
parents might have mentioned it to them, but I don't think so. Contact with
most other relatives is very limited, so they're not an issue.
My in-laws, on the other hand, are batshit insane souther baptist christers.
Did I mention batshit insane? My wife has only told them I don't attend
church (neither does she, although she still believes) but not that I don't
believe the crap anymore. It hasn't come up in the limited times I've seen
the inlaws. My wife thinks it better for me just to lie if the subject does
come up w/ her mother. I'm not sure that I'll be able to lie if it does
come up. I'll probably regret either decision should I eventually have to
make it, so we'll see what happens if it does happen.
--
Aloha, G-Ride
The force that's forcing you to feel like busting up a Starbucks.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 12:36:44 PM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No. Check
that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth and held on to
his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't sell
myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to say, In
the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both* our hearts. Just
two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
Greywolf
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| User: "Ghod" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 04:05:03 PM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12lmnk6k8s59oac@corp.supernews.com...
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my
wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself
an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom
is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a
couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so
being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone
else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic
grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It
absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of
his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back.
No. Check
that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth and held
on to
his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't
sell
myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to
say, In
the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both* our
hearts. Just
two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
Bravo! Well said! It's entirely too easy to tell yourself that you
need to keep quiet in order to protect either yourself, or someone
else. This could be one of the reasons that theists have discounted
atheists for long.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 10:29:01 AM |
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Ghod wrote:
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12lmnk6k8s59oac@corp.supernews.com...
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my
wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself
an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom
is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a
couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so
being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone
else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic
grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It
absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of
his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back.
No. Check
that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth and held
on to
his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't
sell
myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to
say, In
the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both* our
hearts. Just
two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
Bravo! Well said! It's entirely too easy to tell yourself that you
need to keep quiet in order to protect either yourself, or someone
else. This could be one of the reasons that theists have discounted
atheists for long.
I think a lot of theists discount atheists cause they are taught they
are 'bad people' or 'devil worshipers' or this or that. I did not
associate with atheists until I was banned from all Christian and most
Buddhist forums. I think there are 2 types of atheists in general. Type
one is defiant and wants no one ruling them. Type two is most
knowledgeable about religion and due to this knowledge sees religion as
man made and a sham.
.....My discussion of this banning topic from an earlier post.
I've been on dozens of Christian forums and I have perfect record at
the Christian forums...100% banned...and I'm a Christian myself.
I was able to finagle my way back into one Christian forum though:
http://www.christianforums.com/index.php
But I could only stay if I claimed to be an atheist...and I do not post
much and keep my mouth shut...and if I do post it has to be something
non consequential. Also I am not allowed to post with the Christians. I
can only post to the atheists. I like that forum as it reminds me of
the sickness of attachment, so that is why I put up with all the
prejudice. At that forum you can 'buy your armor' to outfit your avatar
to shield you from evil and 'trade blessings' with each other.
The Billy Graham and Catholic forums banned me after my first
posts...then they solicit me for months on end asking for money. I
don't know whether to laugh or cry?
The atheist forums at least take me in as a Christian.
Charity? Humility? Reciprocity? Freedom of Faith? Truth? And of
course...Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself????
I'm afraid Christians don't practice what they preach...at least at
their forums. (Even the Buddhist whose mantra is 'Do No Harm' ban me
60% of the time at their forums, so they are only a little better than
the Christians.)
I was banned from many 'so called' Buddhist sites such as Esangha,
Tricycle, Shambhala, Buddha Chat, 12 step Buddhists, Sangha-Pauahtun,
eBuddhism, Etc.
Some people claiming to be Buddhist think all they have to is shave
their heads, adopt a silly name, be a vegetarians and burn incense to
be a Buddhists...all the while they are doing great harm to others,
Which is how it is with many Buddhist forums that are 'for profit' and
run by 'spiritually sick' individuals. Just as the cobra spews poison
and dung has it stench, the spiritually sick individual knows only ill
will...so it goes with many online Buddhist forums. Currently, it is a
sad state of affairs with such online Buddhist groups.
V (Male)
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 12:43:35 PM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12lmnk6k8s59oac@corp.supernews.com...
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No.
Check that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth and held
on to his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't
sell myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to
say, In the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both* our
hearts. Just two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
Greywolf
I used incorrect wording. I should have not used the word 'betrayal' so much
as trying to convey that he was all but 'abandoned' my his 'family' and left
to die alone and, essentially, uncared for.
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 05:54:49 PM |
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Greywolf ha escrito:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No. Check
that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth and held on to
his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't sell
myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to say, In
the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both* our hearts. Just
two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
Greywolf
if someone is not very intelligent I would not argue with him about
religion, if I am aware that his is. But them I play the role of the
mild unbeliever. There too many false prophets, many hypocrites,
people eager to grab money, and so on. But I do not tell any of this
people I dont believe in god. I don't argue with them.
I remember when I was 20, a young guy to me arguing about religion and
I told him,
"I can not argue with you about religion."
"Why not?"
"Because you are a sheep,"
"What?"
"I do not argue with sheep. You had heard that, no? One is the pastor
and the people is the sheep."
"The sheep?"
"Yeah. What they need the sheep for? To fleece and milk them."
He was very impressed.
leopoldo
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
16 Nov 2006 09:04:46 AM |
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Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather that
I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER mistake
trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible -- to
explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely crushed
him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his 'family' could
never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No. Check that, I don't.
My grandfather refused to look at the truth
Greywolf, your truth was not his. If his beliefs were doing no harm to
you - and since he was a non-church going individual, that's likely -
why did you not respect his right to his beliefs? Were you too young
to have the maturity to do so?
Considering his age and catholic background, why did you feel it
necessary to hurt this man (your own words, "crushed him")? You may
have kept your personal integrity with a truthful answer, but at what
cost? Two wounded individuals - one an old man abandoned by his family
and hurt by his grandson's forceful (I suspect) rejection of his own
beliefs.
Being honest about one's self is fine.... but being honest to the point
of hurting someone, who seemingly loved you, to the extent you did is
not.
However, this is moot. Your grandfather is dead... you can not heal
his wound. Your own wound?
and held on to his beliefs. He
died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't sell myself out, but
stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to say, In the end we will
have died with a grievous wound in *both* our hearts. Just two more
casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
No, the casualties were the result of your own choice. You made the
choice to crush an old man.... religion did not make you do so.
I am not saying you do not have the right to articulate your opinions;
I am saying that it is possible to do so without hurting loved ones or
lying to them. All that is required is care for the rights of those
about whom you care.
Don't care about them and they are rude about your rights? Have at
'em.
Greywolf
I used incorrect wording. I should have not used the word 'betrayal'
so much as trying to convey that he was all but 'abandoned' my his
'family' and left to die alone and, essentially, uncared for.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 06:04:44 AM |
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"Pangur Ban" <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:mn.81e47d6b7878b719.64065@worldnet.att.net...
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible -- to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It
absolutely crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the
betrayal of his 'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could
take back. No. Check that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the
truth
Greywolf, your truth was not his. If his beliefs were doing no harm to
you - and since he was a non-church going individual, that's likely - why
did you not respect his right to his beliefs? Were you too young to have
the maturity to do so?
I *was* very young. What I first attempted to do was 'stun' him with
conclusions I had reached in regards to the existence (or lack thereof)
*and* point out to him some of the 'problems' I had discovered in regards to
the bible. I actually was 'showing off'. I thought I was going to impress
him to no end and 'expose' the bible for what it was -- a flawed work which
a 'perfect' God could not *possibly* have produced. That's all.
Considering his age and catholic background, why did you feel it necessary
to hurt this man (your own words, "crushed him")?
At that time, I didn't think my 'discoveries' *would* hurt him. I was about
nine years old at the time. Shoot. Come to think of it, I can't really
remember exactly how old I was back then. In any case, he ended up hurting
me by rejecting my 'findings' out of hand. I found that to be so downright
'unreasonable'.
You may
have kept your personal integrity with a truthful answer, but at what
cost? Two wounded individuals - one an old man abandoned by his family
and hurt by his grandson's forceful (I suspect) rejection of his own
beliefs.
Make no mistake about it. That 'tete a tete' (and we had no more than two as
I recall) wounded him badly. And I *do* remember feeling a sting of remorse
about it. But the cat was out of the 'bag', so to speak. And my hatred for
religion has steadily increased ever since. His 'out-of-hand' rejection and
disdain for *my* views left me deeply hurt too.
Being honest about one's self is fine.... but being honest to the point of
hurting someone, who seemingly loved you, to the extent you did is not.
As I've indicated, I caused him great pain. But that's what happens when
someone is forced to confront the truth and instead of at least weighing
things objectively, takes it as an attack on his well-being. It was the
Church that lied to him. Not me.
However, this is moot. Your grandfather is dead... you can not heal his
wound. Your own wound?
It'll never go away. I cannot help but think of the rift it caused whenever
I think of him. As I've said, I was in his 'doghouse' when he died. (A fact
my 'Indiana' half-brother fully used to his putrid advantage. The selfsame
'brother' who has nearly succeeded in wrangling my some thirty acres of
property for himself -- thanks to a number of grossly immoral Catholics (and
'cronies) out here! Praise Jesus!
and held on to his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that
I didn't sell myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist.
Sad to say, In the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both*
our hearts. Just two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
No, the casualties were the result of your own choice. You made the
choice to crush an old man.... religion did not make you do so.
Not so. My initial 'conversation' with my grandfather, as I have already
indicated, was more of me trying to 'show-off' what I had 'learned' rather
than 'crush' him. He *rarely* went to church (and I don't recall him going
to church in town at all, not one time) and I guess he just assumed that I
was just a 'good' little Catholic (at one point, I *did* learn a little
Latin and became an altar-boy). So my 'confrontation' with him was in no way
meant to be mean-spirited. The *degree* of his religiousity took me by
surprise.
I am not saying you do not have the right to articulate your opinions; I
am saying that it is possible to do so without hurting loved ones or lying
to them.
I wasn't lying to him. I felt that I was presenting him with a 'truth' he
was oblivious to.
All that is required is care for the rights of those
about whom you care.
I don't think people who try and force their religious views on others and
refuse to listen to reason have any 'rights'. They're bullies trying to use
'bully' methods to try and acheive their aims. The truth has no need to fear
probing questions. People who adhere to false beliefs, do.
I am proud that I held my position. And sorry as hell that religion was the
cause of the problem in the first place. Religion sucks. It is the bane of
mankind.
Greywolf
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 05:57:29 PM |
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Greywolf submitted this idea :
"Pangur Ban" <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:mn.81e47d6b7878b719.64065@worldnet.att.net...
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No.
Check that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth
Greywolf, your truth was not his. If his beliefs were doing no harm to you
- and since he was a non-church going individual, that's likely - why did
you not respect his right to his beliefs? Were you too young to have the
maturity to do so?
I *was* very young. What I first attempted to do was 'stun' him with
conclusions I had reached in regards to the existence (or lack thereof) *and*
point out to him some of the 'problems' I had discovered in regards to the
bible. I actually was 'showing off'. I thought I was going to impress him to
no end and 'expose' the bible for what it was -- a flawed work which a
'perfect' God could not *possibly* have produced. That's all.
I understand. I suspected you were very young. We all have done
things as youngsters we might not do as mature (though I wonder if SOME
people ever reach maturity).
Considering his age and catholic background, why did you feel it necessary
to hurt this man (your own words, "crushed him")?
At that time, I didn't think my 'discoveries' *would* hurt him. I was about
nine years old at the time. Shoot. Come to think of it, I can't really
remember exactly how old I was back then. In any case, he ended up hurting me
by rejecting my 'findings' out of hand. I found that to be so downright
'unreasonable'.
Understood.
You may
have kept your personal integrity with a truthful answer, but at what cost?
Two wounded individuals - one an old man abandoned by his family and hurt
by his grandson's forceful (I suspect) rejection of his own beliefs.
Make no mistake about it. That 'tete a tete' (and we had no more than two as
I recall) wounded him badly. And I *do* remember feeling a sting of remorse
about it. But the cat was out of the 'bag', so to speak. And my hatred for
religion has steadily increased ever since. His 'out-of-hand' rejection and
disdain for *my* views left me deeply hurt too.
Understood.
Being honest about one's self is fine.... but being honest to the point of
hurting someone, who seemingly loved you, to the extent you did is not.
As I've indicated, I caused him great pain. But that's what happens when
someone is forced to confront the truth and instead of at least weighing
things objectively, takes it as an attack on his well-being.
That is indeed your side. His side was that his beloved grandson was
attacking beliefs he held dear. You wanted him to do two things a
believer does not... sometimes can not...do. Accept your completely
contradictory "truth" to his "truth" he had held for much longer than
you had been alive; and to be objective... we theists rarely are about
our beliefs.
It was the
Church that lied to him. Not me.
Your "truth" - not his.
However, this is moot. Your grandfather is dead... you can not heal his
wound. Your own wound?
It'll never go away. I cannot help but think of the rift it caused whenever I
think of him. As I've said, I was in his 'doghouse' when he died. (A fact my
'Indiana' half-brother fully used to his putrid advantage. The selfsame
'brother' who has nearly succeeded in wrangling my some thirty acres of
property for himself -- thanks to a number of grossly immoral Catholics (and
'cronies) out here! Praise Jesus!
You need to heal that wound. The incident which caused it is long gone
in time; you grandfather is dead. You apparently are still dealing
with repercussions from it (the half-brother), but the wound can be
healed if you choose to do so. If you can accept advice from a theist,
mine would be to let go of the anger and develop some peace in
yourself.
and held on to his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I
didn't sell myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad
to say, In the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both* our
hearts. Just two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
No, the casualties were the result of your own choice. You made the choice
to crush an old man.... religion did not make you do so.
Not so. My initial 'conversation' with my grandfather, as I have already
indicated, was more of me trying to 'show-off' what I had 'learned' rather
than 'crush' him. He *rarely* went to church (and I don't recall him going to
church in town at all, not one time) and I guess he just assumed that I was
just a 'good' little Catholic (at one point, I *did* learn a little Latin and
became an altar-boy). So my 'confrontation' with him was in no way meant to
be mean-spirited. The *degree* of his religiousity took me by surprise.
I suspected you were young... I just didn't know it was THAT young! I
would have changed my reply had I known that. I assumed you were in
your twenties.
I am not saying you do not have the right to articulate your opinions; I am
saying that it is possible to do so without hurting loved ones or lying to
them.
I wasn't lying to him. I felt that I was presenting him with a 'truth' he was
oblivious to.
Understood.
All that is required is care for the rights of those
about whom you care.
I don't think people who try and force their religious views on others and
refuse to listen to reason have any 'rights'.
Agreed, but that was not your grandfather, was it? You said he rarely,
if ever went to church; you knew he was a believer, but had you had
enough discussion with him to gauge the depth of his beliefs?
At any rate, it is done and over.
My hope is that you walk your path in peace and harmony (rewording of a
Navajo blessing common in my area).
Pang
They're bullies trying to use
'bully' methods to try and acheive their aims. The truth has no need to fear
probing questions. People who adhere to false beliefs, do.
I am proud that I held my position. And sorry as hell that religion was the
cause of the problem in the first place. Religion sucks. It is the bane of
mankind.
Greywolf
--
nonchristian theist
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
16 Nov 2006 09:11:59 AM |
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On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:04:46 -0700, Pangur Ban
<PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather that
I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER mistake
trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible -- to
explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely crushed
him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his 'family' could
never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No. Check that, I don't.
My grandfather refused to look at the truth
Greywolf, your truth was not his. If his beliefs were doing no harm to
you - and since he was a non-church going individual, that's likely -
why did you not respect his right to his beliefs? Were you too young
to have the maturity to do so?
Why do you equivicate over words like "truth" and "belief"?
Truth meanssomethings correspondence with reality. Religionists are
dishonest when they call their beliefs truth".
Reality isn't a belief.
Considering his age and catholic background, why did you feel it
necessary to hurt this man (your own words, "crushed him")? You may
have kept your personal integrity with a truthful answer, but at what
cost? Two wounded individuals - one an old man abandoned by his family
and hurt by his grandson's forceful (I suspect) rejection of his own
beliefs.
He didnt. But it illustrates a dilemma atheists often have around
theist family.
Being honest about one's self is fine.... but being honest to the point
of hurting someone, who seemingly loved you, to the extent you did is
not.
So what should he have done? Lied?
I have theist former friends who only discovered I was atheist when I
could no longer put up with their rants about atheists when they
didn't even know they were talking about me.
However, this is moot. Your grandfather is dead... you can not heal
his wound. Your own wound?
What makes you think he has a wound?
and held on to his beliefs. He
died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't sell myself out, but
stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to say, In the end we will
have died with a grievous wound in *both* our hearts. Just two more
casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
No, the casualties were the result of your own choice. You made the
choice to crush an old man.... religion did not make you do so.
Spoken like the intolerant theist you pretend you're not.
I am not saying you do not have the right to articulate your opinions;
I am saying that it is possible to do so without hurting loved ones or
lying to them. All that is required is care for the rights of those
about whom you care.
Too many religious friends and even relatives cant grasp this.
Don't care about them and they are rude about your rights? Have at
'em.
Greywolf
I used incorrect wording. I should have not used the word 'betrayal'
so much as trying to convey that he was all but 'abandoned' my his
'family' and left to die alone and, essentially, uncared for.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 10:37:28 AM |
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Pangur Ban wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather that
I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER mistake
trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible -- to
explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely crushed
him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his 'family' could
never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No. Check that, I don't.
My grandfather refused to look at the truth
Greywolf, your truth was not his. If his beliefs were doing no harm to
you - and since he was a non-church going individual, that's likely -
why did you not respect his right to his beliefs? Were you too young
to have the maturity to do so?
Considering his age and catholic background, why did you feel it
necessary to hurt this man (your own words, "crushed him")? You may
have kept your personal integrity with a truthful answer, but at what
cost? Two wounded individuals - one an old man abandoned by his family
and hurt by his grandson's forceful (I suspect) rejection of his own
beliefs.
Being honest about one's self is fine.... but being honest to the point
of hurting someone, who seemingly loved you, to the extent you did is
not.
However, this is moot. Your grandfather is dead... you can not heal
his wound. Your own wound?
and held on to his beliefs. He
died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't sell myself out, but
stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to say, In the end we will
have died with a grievous wound in *both* our hearts. Just two more
casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
No, the casualties were the result of your own choice. You made the
choice to crush an old man.... religion did not make you do so.
I am not saying you do not have the right to articulate your opinions;
I am saying that it is possible to do so without hurting loved ones or
lying to them. All that is required is care for the rights of those
about whom you care.
Don't care about them and they are rude about your rights? Have at
'em.
Greywolf
I used incorrect wording. I should have not used the word 'betrayal'
so much as trying to convey that he was all but 'abandoned' my his
'family' and left to die alone and, essentially, uncared for.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
PB and G, you both made good points. It is easy to second guess our
actions. The best advice is all our actions have consequences and many
of our actions destroy peace both ours and others So good to do the
best we can to work towards peace and not destroy it. Bear ion mind
that no one does this perfectly. Look for direction not perfection.
Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only
completely consistent people are dead. Aldous Huxley
V
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 04:37:01 PM |
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V wrote after much deliberation:
Pangur Ban wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No.
Check that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth
Greywolf, your truth was not his. If his beliefs were doing no harm to
you - and since he was a non-church going individual, that's likely -
why did you not respect his right to his beliefs? Were you too young
to have the maturity to do so?
Considering his age and catholic background, why did you feel it
necessary to hurt this man (your own words, "crushed him")? You may
have kept your personal integrity with a truthful answer, but at what
cost? Two wounded individuals - one an old man abandoned by his family
and hurt by his grandson's forceful (I suspect) rejection of his own
beliefs.
Being honest about one's self is fine.... but being honest to the point
of hurting someone, who seemingly loved you, to the extent you did is
not.
However, this is moot. Your grandfather is dead... you can not heal
his wound. Your own wound?
and held on to his beliefs. He
died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't sell myself out, but
stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to say, In the end we will
have died with a grievous wound in *both* our hearts. Just two more
casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
No, the casualties were the result of your own choice. You made the
choice to crush an old man.... religion did not make you do so.
I am not saying you do not have the right to articulate your opinions;
I am saying that it is possible to do so without hurting loved ones or
lying to them. All that is required is care for the rights of those
about whom you care.
Don't care about them and they are rude about your rights? Have at
'em.
Greywolf
I used incorrect wording. I should have not used the word 'betrayal'
so much as trying to convey that he was all but 'abandoned' my his
'family' and left to die alone and, essentially, uncared for.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
PB and G, you both made good points. It is easy to second guess our
actions. The best advice is all our actions have consequences and many
of our actions destroy peace both ours and others
This is a focus of my parenting classes; parents MUST teach children
that actions (and words) have consequences. Children must learn this
early and have this reinforced repeatedly during their growing years.
When they become adults, they KNOW (have internalized, if you will)
this fact ... and know they must accept the consequences of their
choices. I use R=C+C. Responsibility equals choices plus
consequences. By the time their children become adults, they have
(hopefully as nothing is a guarantee) learned problem-solving skills
and decision-making skills; to THINK before they act. They are
(*fingers crossed*) responsible adults.
As I also teach the parents to use mutual respect, their children will
also internalize that concept. Mutual respect is something I emphasize
with my parent students - the ones who are victims of domestic violence
and the ones who are female felons. Mutual respect requires them to
deal with their children in specific ways and the children learn to
respond in kind. Do not hurt others by words or deed (unless in
self-defense or in defense of a victim). This is what I try to teach;
it is relatively easy for me to do so as it is also a part of my
religious beliefs (no, my religion is NEVER mentioned when I teach).
These two concepts were what I was expressing to Greywolf in a very
short form and as kindly as I could. He blamed religion - that
responsibility was misplaced. And mutual respect would have prevented
him from hurting his grandfather and himself so grievously. However,
as noted, it is moot. All was said and done, and his grandfather is
dead. He now needs to heal his own wound.
Pangur - who needs someone to hold her halo as she removes it now. lol
So good to do the
best we can to work towards peace and not destroy it. Bear in mind
that no one does this perfectly. Look for direction not perfection.
Agreed.
Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only
completely consistent people are dead. Aldous Huxley
V
--
nonchristian theist
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 11:27:38 PM |
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Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt.
You used a book you believe to be ***** as evidence to support your
beliefs. Very logical. I congratulate you on your sound reasoning
capabilities.
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 05:19:06 AM |
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"Tuco Ramirez" <tucodrat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163654858.528158.33260@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt.
You used a book you believe to be ***** as evidence to support your
beliefs. Very logical. I congratulate you on your sound reasoning
capabilities.
I don't know quite how to take your reply. I started to point out
'contradictions' in the bible to him. He absolutely refused to listen.
(Picture someone covering up their ears with their hands and singing at the
top of their voice while you're trying to explain something to them. This
approximates what my grandfather was doing ... really. Not that he actually
did that though.) As for the bible, it *is* ***** -- mixed in with some
very important 'historical' information.
Greywolf
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 10:52:16 AM |
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Greywolf wrote:
"Tuco Ramirez" <tucodrat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163654858.528158.33260@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt.
You used a book you believe to be ***** as evidence to support your
beliefs. Very logical. I congratulate you on your sound reasoning
capabilities.
I don't know quite how to take your reply. I started to point out
'contradictions' in the bible to him. He absolutely refused to listen.
(Picture someone covering up their ears with their hands and singing at the
top of their voice while you're trying to explain something to them. This
approximates what my grandfather was doing ... really. Not that he actually
did that though.) As for the bible, it *is* ***** -- mixed in with some
very important 'historical' information.
Greywolf
Many people do with religion the same way as the compulsive gambler
does with their fantasy religious fixations.
Excerpt From: Gamblers Anonymous pamphlet "The dream world of a
compulsive gambler."
A lot of time is spent creating images of great and wonderful things
they are going to do as soon as they make "the big win."... No one can
convince them that their great schemes will not come true. They believe
they will, for without this dream world, life for them would not be
tolerable.
Religion is many only hopes for happiness in the next life so
'pointing' will not help until they accept it.
V
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 10:33:11 AM |
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Greywolf wrote:
"Tuco Ramirez" <tucodrat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163654858.528158.33260@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt.
You used a book you believe to be ***** as evidence to support your
beliefs. Very logical. I congratulate you on your sound reasoning
capabilities.
I don't know quite how to take your reply. I started to point out
'contradictions' in the bible to him. He absolutely refused to listen.
(Picture someone covering up their ears with their hands and singing at the
top of their voice while you're trying to explain something to them. This
approximates what my grandfather was doing ... really. Not that he actually
did that though.) As for the bible, it *is* ***** -- mixed in with some
very important 'historical' information.
Greywolf
Yes, the bible has some good in it as well as BS it seems. The good
concepts are those that can apply to all whether religious or atheist.
We should always he interested in finding truth and peace. If our way
is not working then some other way may help. It is good to test and see
the results. The bible reminds us of this "Test everything; hold fast
to what is good; abstain from every form of evil," (1 Thess. 5:21) Even
if you are an atheist, this concept of testing can be of help to you.
For with such tests, 'the proof of the pudding will be in the eating'
and decisions on how to live will not be left only to your ego, but
will be grounded in peace. Also see my post:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
V
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
18 Nov 2006 06:12:29 AM |
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Greywolf wrote:
"Tuco Ramirez" <tucodrat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163654858.528158.33260@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt.
You used a book you believe to be ***** as evidence to support your
beliefs. Very logical. I congratulate you on your sound reasoning
capabilities.
I don't know quite how to take your reply. I started to point out
'contradictions' in the bible to him. He absolutely refused to listen.
(Picture someone covering up their ears with their hands and singing at the
top of their voice while you're trying to explain something to them. This
approximates what my grandfather was doing ... really. Not that he actually
did that though.) As for the bible, it *is* ***** -- mixed in with some
very important 'historical' information.
This is all fine, but how does your use of logic and reason plus your
knowledge of the bible prove that there is no god, as you claimed above?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
16 Nov 2006 01:06:25 AM |
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On 15 Nov 2006 21:27:38 -0800, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucodrat@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt.
You used a book you believe to be ***** as evidence to support your
beliefs. Very logical. I congratulate you on your sound reasoning
capabilities.
He actually demonstrated the ***** in the book somebody else
believes.
Are you really this stupid or just being an ***** for effect?
.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
17 Nov 2006 12:14:11 AM |
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|
wrote:
On 15 Nov 2006 21:27:38 -0800, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucodrat@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt.
You used a book you believe to be ***** as evidence to support your
beliefs. Very logical. I congratulate you on your sound reasoning
capabilities.
He actually demonstrated the ***** in the book somebody else
believes.
Are you really this stupid or just being an ***** for effect?
Hey genius, here is what YOU wrote:
"I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic
grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even
LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the
Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt."
Usually I have to ask morons like you which part of what I wrote they
don't understand; in your case I have to ask you which part of what YOU
wrote don't you understand?
.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 01:42:27 PM |
|
|
Greywolf wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I made the HUGE mistake telling my non-church going Catholic grandfather
that I didn't believe that a 'God' actually existed. I made an even LARGER
mistake trying to use logic and reason -- and my knowledge of the Bible --
to explain *why* I felt the way I felt. It crushed him. It absolutely
crushed him. I hurt that poor man like bullets and the betrayal of his
'family' could never do. It is something I wish I could take back. No. Check
that, I don't. My grandfather refused to look at the truth and held on to
his beliefs. He died a proud theist. I'm proud to say that I didn't sell
myself out, but stood my ground. I'll die a proud atheist. Sad to say, In
the end we will have died with a grievous wound in *both* our hearts. Just
two more casualties lain at the doorstep of religion.
Greywolf
Yes, thjios crushing feeling is what I received from wife when I just
touched on it. Kind of like when I told my kid about the Santa issues
and I thought he was old enough to know. I'm not scared to tell, just
wish to avoid hurting others.
V
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| User: "Rob Brown" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 03:15:15 PM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I am honest with anyone about this, including any family member. I am an
atheist. I will always be truthful if I am engaged in a conversation. I make
a considered judgment about speaking up in a public setting if I have not
been directly addressed regarding god or religion. But that's true of
several subjects. Sex, politics and religion top the list.
I am unashamed and in fact happy to state my position on this because it's
what I really think about gods. I am being honest in stating my position.
Unlike answering to "Does this dress make me look fat?" my truthful answer
should not make any reasonable person feel hurt. I have not attacked or
criticized them in any way. Why should my position anger or hurt someone?
Rob Brown
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 04:27:23 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:15:15 GMT, "Rob Brown" <bbrown@csmflorida.com>
wrote:
Unlike answering to "Does this dress make me look fat?" my truthful answer
should not make any reasonable person feel hurt. I have not attacked or
criticized them in any way. Why should my position anger or hurt someone?
Sure you have. they say "I need a belief in a god to have a life" and
you say "I don't". When you scare someone you anger and hurt him.
It's not your fault, though, that they have this failing.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"religion did for *****, what Stonehenge did for rocks"
- The World Famous Tink
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 11:52:17 AM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163610815.400999.287750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
I'm certainly not a "closet atheist", but I don't throw in anyone's face
either. My husband's also an atheist, but comes from a very Catholic
family. His sisters are all well aware that I'm an atheist (and aren't
exactly thrilled), but I've never used the word in front of his parents. My
mom and bro are also atheists, as was my late father. My mom's sister,
husband and kids are all religious, but it's just not something we discuss.
I'll be having conflicts with the in-laws when my niece and nephew make
their first communion in the spring and our daughter doesn't, but we've been
preparing ourselves for this for a couple of years now and are considered
armed and dangerous ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "S. LaRocca" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
17 Nov 2006 07:16:53 AM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in news:1163610815.400999.287750
@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I usually take the stand that if the person in question is one who doesn't
try to ram their beliefs down my throat, and are decent human beings, I
usually tell them I know what's best for me, and if they persist, I tell
them nicely one more time, if they continue, I unload on them.
The thumper idiots, I don't even try being civil to... Sometime you have to
talk cave man to a cave man.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
17 Nov 2006 07:18:18 AM |
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On 17 Nov 2006 13:16:53 GMT, "S. LaRocca" <geechel@yahoo.com> wrote:
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in news:1163610815.400999.287750
@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
I usually take the stand that if the person in question is one who doesn't
try to ram their beliefs down my throat, and are decent human beings, I
usually tell them I know what's best for me, and if they persist, I tell
them nicely one more time, if they continue, I unload on them.
That describes most of us.
The problem is that there are two kinds of thumpers - those who do it
to rub it in our faces, and those who are too stupid to understand
when it's not appropriate.
Both of these lie about the reaction, accuse us of being anti-
something we wouldnt give a toss about if they kept it to themselves.
The thumper idiots, I don't even try being civil to... Sometime you have to
talk cave man to a cave man.
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| User: "S. LaRocca" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
17 Nov 2006 07:32:10 AM |
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wrote in
news:0hdrl2pthdaafg0ur4p8i6d64d7k958bt5@4ax.com:
That describes most of us.
The problem is that there are two kinds of thumpers - those who do it
to rub it in our faces, and those who are too stupid to understand
when it's not appropriate.
Both of these lie about the reaction, accuse us of being anti-
something we wouldnt give a toss about if they kept it to themselves.
The thumper idiots, I don't even try being civil to... Sometime you
have to talk cave man to a cave man.
How true..They can get screwed if they don't like my handeling of them... I
walk on eggshells no longer !!
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
17 Nov 2006 04:22:50 PM |
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On 17 Nov 2006 13:32:10 GMT, "S. LaRocca" <geechel@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <Xns987E565CAE4CDgeechelyahoocom@216.151.153.34>
calee@optonline.net wrote in
news:0hdrl2pthdaafg0ur4p8i6d64d7k958bt5@4ax.com:
That describes most of us.
The problem is that there are two kinds of thumpers - those who do it
to rub it in our faces, and those who are too stupid to understand
when it's not appropriate.
Both of these lie about the reaction, accuse us of being anti-
something we wouldnt give a toss about if they kept it to themselves.
The thumper idiots, I don't even try being civil to... Sometime you
have to talk cave man to a cave man.
How true..They can get screwed if they don't like my handeling of them... I
walk on eggshells no longer !!
That has become my modus operandum after many years of repeatedly
arriving at the conclusion that kid gloves achieve nothing, whilst
boxing gloves get the point across very effectively.
--
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 12:58:45 PM |
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I grew up in a Reformed Jewish family in a Texas city during the 60s.
There was only one other Jewish family within a 5 mile radius.
My upbringing was pretty secular. We didn't celebrate any Christian
holidays, and barely celebrated Jewish ones.
Most of my family and extended family seem to be non-religious. I
don't discuss being an atheist, but it doesn't really come up in
conversation. I doubt if anyone would challenge me about it. If they
disagreed, they'd probably not pursue it.
My wife was raised Christian. She recently has discussed that she is
more atheist than theist these days.
On a related note, on the HBO Real Time show last week, the discussion
wandered to the possibility of a woman or black or Jewish president.
Bill Maher said that there would never be an admitted atheist president
(or any level of politician). The panel stared at him like he had two
heads. They never even considered atheists as a minority group
struggling for acceptance.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 02:07:27 PM |
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On Nov 15, 12:13=A0pm, "V" <v...@aol.com> wrote:
All my families and wife come from Catholicism. While I've told my wife
some of my more benign ideas but stopping short of calling myself an
atheist. I've not spoken a word to in-laws or my parents. My Mom is a
light duty holy roller and is in her eighties. My in-laws have a couple
of Catholic priests in their families and dislike me anyway, so being
atheist would ratchet that hatred up many more notches. Anyone else
have to be a closet atheist due to conflicts within the family?
V
I was brought up very Catholic but stopped believing when I was 16. I
left home at 17 and my parents figured out I wasn't religious. A few
years later, after I married a heathen and had a baby, my father joked
that he'd baptize my son with a bottle of Coke when I wasn't looking.
He never did. I suspect they weren't as religious as they seemed when I
was a child. (They died many years ago.)
But I do wonder about atheists marrying believers. It seems such a huge
chasm to me. I don't think I'd be attracted to someone who believed in
the supernatural.
Lana ( who loves the phrase "light duty holy roller." It suggests a
fundamentalist with a strong union.)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Closet Atheist |
15 Nov 2006 04:24:57 PM |
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On 15 Nov 2006 12:07:27 -0800, "LanaXZR@aol.com" <LanaXZR@aol.com>
wrote:
But I do wonder about atheists marrying believers. It seems such a huge
chasm to me. I don't think I'd be attracted to someone who believed in
the supernatural.
My wife is still pretty much a fundie, but she believes that religion
should stop at the skin - on the way out. She has her beliefs but
they have nothing to do with us, only with her. We agree on almost
everything else.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus
was not born of a virgin."
Cardinal Bellarmine,[1615, during the trial of Galileo]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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