Denis Loubet sketched:

"David" <nugatory@pension.com> wrote in message
news:d2rkja$oo3$0@pita.alt.net...

Uzytkownik "jwk" <jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:1112622246.532071.131520@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

James wrote:

It's pretty obvious that we're not all meant to get along,

especially on

Usenet, but I have to wonder if the seemingly mutual hate between
atheists and theists here indicates a bigger problem. Is there any
reason why atheism can't coexist with Christianity, or any other

major

religion, as seems evident on Usenet? Or are many of us just

assholes

behind monitors?

In Canada, there is a sizeable population of individuals identifying
themselves to be of "no religious affiliation." Statistics

Canada

(2001) indicates it to be 4.9 million of our 30 million residents,
or

16% of the population. Granted, this doesn't mean they're all

atheists,

but that's still a pretty big number to attribute to non-practicing

theists. Moreover, the 1991 Census put the number at 3.4 million of

27

million residents, or 13%, which indicates a modest growth factor.

If the number of "no religious affiliation" residents is growing,

and

the religious fervor in politics is growing in both Canada and the
United States, is there some sort of climax that must be reached?
Considering atheism is "non-denominational," meaning that as a

state of

mind we don't have any sort of organized hierarchy, is rational
discourse resulting in some sort of acceptable conclusion even

possible?

Absolutely not. How could there? "Acceptable conclusion"? Either
there is a god, or gods, or there is not. If I say there is not,
theists will disagree. If theists insist there is, I disagree.

As far as the animosity, well that is the fault of the theists.
Atheists would love to just live and let live, but the theists won't
let us. They keep trying to push their beliefs on us. Both
personally
and through government run programs. They just won't let anyone live
without paying homage to their delusions, and when we try they claim
they are being discriminated against.

So you come to usenet, the one place where an atheist can vent in
relative safety, and you see atheists venting at the worst of the
theist proselytizer and you are surprised at the hostility. You
shouldn't be.

You want everyone to get along? Get theists to stop trying to take
atheist's rights away. Get them to leave us alone and we'll gladly
stop cussing them out in the dark room of usenet.

jwk

It's not that we want to annoy you. If you believed as we did you would
see
that we don't really have any choice in the matter.

Yes you do. You could recognize the god character for the monster it is,

and

seek to overthrow it as anyone with an ounce of integrity would do.

But God is God, and we are the creature.

If something in God doesn't appeal
to us, then it's us who are at fault, not God.

You probably wouldn't like watching the way in nature a bird will
sometimes
peck another's eye out. But you don't try to overthrow that monstrosity of
nature. you accept that some things which displease you are needful in
nature, and that in the end it is all part of nature's beauty.

We believe you are going to hell,

And you agree with your god that we DESERVE that hell.

Yes, and so do I. We all do.

That kind of puts any subsequent discussion at a bit of a disadvantage,
doesn't it?

Why? I say we all deserve it, and only believing is the difference not any
moral superiority.

I am not morally superior to you, I may never be in this
life, although some of your drawings do reveal a certain wickedness about
you, it is, like, nothing in comparison with mine.

We all deserve hell.

I mean, I don't think YOU deserve to be tortured forever. I
wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I just think you're kind of deluded,

but

you think I DESERVE a punishment I wouldn't wish on Hitler.

I don't wish it on you, or on Hitler.

It is a fact that we deserve it,

and
it is a fact that we don't have to have what we deserve,

because Jesus
covered the matter, and applies his blood as the ransom for anyone who
only,
in belief and repentance, asks for it.

Why? What did I ever do to you?

Nothing. You only entertained me, gave me interesting pictures to look at
on
your website. I have nothing personal against you what so ever.

that's a fact about what we believe. The
people who believe this about you, but still don't come here to tell
you
how
to get out of that situation

What situation? The situation where the thing you worship wants to send
us
to eternal torture, and you agree with its perfect and righteous judgment
that we deserve it? That situation?

You worship an imaginary monster.

He provided the solution, sent his own Son so that you don't need to
suffer
what we all deserve.

- and believe me there are plenty of them, they
are the ones you'd hate even more, if you thought about what it means.

We HAVE thought what it means, and we don't see much difference between

the

two. They both agree with the supposedly righteous judgment of their god
that we DESERVE eternal torture. It doesn't matter that there's a bogus
escape clause in the name of Jesus, the fact that you would worship a

being

that would even CONSIDER sending someone to eternal torture tells us
everything we need to know about you.

God is not willing that any should perish,

but that all should come to
everlasting life. The way is open. If you go to hell, it'll be your
choice,
and not God's.

Don't be a monster to yourself.

But say what you like about the proselytising evangelical, at least we
are trying to do something about this threat of damnation that we

believe

is
hanging over you atheists.

In my view, you are worshipping the very thing that supposedly threatens

us

with damnation. If you think damnation is a thing worth avoiding, why do

you

worship the thing that threatens us with it?

I don't worship sin, I worship Christ, who took the victory over sin and
death.

No condemnation now I dread. Jesus and all in Him is mine, as Wesley said.

Obviously you think that god's damnation is bad that we should avoid it.
I
suspect you think it's too harsh. But how can it be too harsh or bad if

you

also believe it's the perfect and righteous judgment of your god?

You might not like the fact that we believe that, but given that we do,
you
shouldn't be offended that we try and get you out of it.

Al Capone's thugs Could say the same thing. They offered shopkeepers
"insurance" in return for protection money that guaranteed their shops

would

not "mysteriously" burn down.

That's just a protection racket.

You cannot compare that to the
unconditional election by God of those who do no more than believe.

Christ
has done everything that is needed. You are not being asked to pay.

He has
paid. You would think it strange if a mafioso asked you for money for
protection and then got his son to come and pay the protection fee when
you
couldn't, would you not?

So it's not a useful comparison, probably.

You are a thug for the god you believe in, whether you know it or not,
and
you're offering us the same deal Al did, except it's our supposed souls

that

are in threat of being firebombed, and it's worship the god wants instead

of

cash. (Although it seems to be trafficking in both.)

But that was due to him all along.

If I am a thug, then I'm collecting a due
debt and not some fictional protection fee for insurance.

Do you still wonder why we don't like you?

In Russia, and my car still has the badge of the insurance company that
was
my "krysha" and no doubt there is still some good protection from that -
you
pay a premium to a genuine insurance company and you get protection. If
you
don't pay, you car is likely to get nicked, and if you do, it won't be.
You
get a badge which shows people that bad things will happen to them if they
nick your car.

For an additional fee, which my then company insisted on paying for me,
you
get something called "soprovozhdenie" - which literally means
"accompaniment". This gives you a telephone number and if you get into
any
kind of difficulty a team is there for you in minutes. I had to use it
once.
I had an accident coming out of hospital the day my daughter was born, and
in Russia you have to stop dead where you are until the police arrive.
This
meant in my case that the trams couldn't get past, and about five trams
had
gotten in a queue behind me with people on the way to work. People came up
and complained and told me to go over to the side, even though the
insurance
people on the phone said that I mustn't do that, or I could end up in
trouble. People started to throng my car, because the police were slow in
getting there, and I said to the person that could they get the police to
get there any faster as people were starting to get nasty with me. They
then
said "we'll send the soprovozhdenie". I thought some lawyer was going to
turn up with a book and explain the law to people there.

In a couple of minutes a big black mercedes arrived and these huge blokes
dressed in black leather jackets with sticks and sunglasses got out and
started walking towards my car. I thought "oh *****, someone's called their
"krysha" out on me. I've obviously pissed someone important off by
blocking
the road and now I've had it" and I was praying, I can tell you. But they
came up to me and asked me to unwind my window. I unwound it a little bit,
and they said "Mr James, we've come to look after you" and chased all the
other people who had been surrounding my car off it. Only then did I know
that this 'accompaniment' was actually physical protection when you needed
it by a team of mobile bodyguards. I had imagined it was like the free
legal
time you get added on to insurance policies in the West. Soon the police
arrived and one of these guys stayed and negotiated with the police for
me,
and helped me fill the forms in.

By the end of it, I was wondering why I hadn't liked the idea of a mafia,
as
my only direct dealings with the sharp end of it seems to work fine for
me.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, in Moscow do what the Muscovites do,
and
in God's world, do what God has recommended that you do, namely, repent
and
believe in Jesus.

Denis Loubet sketched:

"David" <nugatory@pension.com> wrote in message
news:d2rkja$oo3$0@pita.alt.net...

Uzytkownik "jwk" <jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:1112622246.532071.131520@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

James wrote:

It's pretty obvious that we're not all meant to get along,

especially on

Usenet, but I have to wonder if the seemingly mutual hate between
atheists and theists here indicates a bigger problem. Is there any
reason why atheism can't coexist with Christianity, or any other

major

religion, as seems evident on Usenet? Or are many of us just

assholes

behind monitors?

In Canada, there is a sizeable population of individuals identifying
themselves to be of "no religious affiliation." Statistics

Canada

(2001) indicates it to be 4.9 million of our 30 million residents,
or

16% of the population. Granted, this doesn't mean they're all

atheists,

but that's still a pretty big number to attribute to non-practicing

theists. Moreover, the 1991 Census put the number at 3.4 million of

27

million residents, or 13%, which indicates a modest growth factor.

If the number of "no religious affiliation" residents is growing,

and

the religious fervor in politics is growing in both Canada and the
United States, is there some sort of climax that must be reached?
Considering atheism is "non-denominational," meaning that as a

state of

mind we don't have any sort of organized hierarchy, is rational
discourse resulting in some sort of acceptable conclusion even

possible?

Absolutely not. How could there? "Acceptable conclusion"? Either
there is a god, or gods, or there is not. If I say there is not,
theists will disagree. If theists insist there is, I disagree.

As far as the animosity, well that is the fault of the theists.
Atheists would love to just live and let live, but the theists won't
let us. They keep trying to push their beliefs on us. Both
personally
and through government run programs. They just won't let anyone live
without paying homage to their delusions, and when we try they claim
they are being discriminated against.

So you come to usenet, the one place where an atheist can vent in
relative safety, and you see atheists venting at the worst of the
theist proselytizer and you are surprised at the hostility. You
shouldn't be.

You want everyone to get along? Get theists to stop trying to take
atheist's rights away. Get them to leave us alone and we'll gladly
stop cussing them out in the dark room of usenet.

jwk

It's not that we want to annoy you. If you believed as we did you would
see
that we don't really have any choice in the matter.

Yes you do. You could recognize the god character for the monster it is,

and

seek to overthrow it as anyone with an ounce of integrity would do.

But God is God, and we are the creature. If something in God doesn't
appeal
to us, then it's us who are at fault, not God.

You probably wouldn't like watching the way in nature a bird will
sometimes
peck another's eye out. But you don't try to overthrow that monstrosity of
nature. you accept that some things which displease you are needful in
nature, and that in the end it is all part of nature's beauty.

We believe you are going to hell,

And you agree with your god that we DESERVE that hell.

Yes, and so do I. We all do.

That kind of puts any subsequent discussion at a bit of a disadvantage,
doesn't it?

Why? I say we all deserve it, and only believing is the difference not any
moral superiority.

I am not morally superior to you, I may never be in this
life, although some of your drawings do reveal a certain wickedness about
you, it is, like, nothing in comparison with mine.

We all deserve hell.

I mean, I don't think YOU deserve to be tortured forever. I
wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I just think you're kind of deluded,

but

you think I DESERVE a punishment I wouldn't wish on Hitler.

I don't wish it on you, or on Hitler.

It is a fact that we deserve it, and
it is a fact that we don't have to have what we deserve, because Jesus
covered the matter, and applies his blood as the ransom for anyone who
only,
in belief and repentance, asks for it.

Why? What did I ever do to you?

Nothing. You only entertained me, gave me interesting pictures to look at
on
your website. I have nothing personal against you what so ever.

that's a fact about what we believe. The
people who believe this about you, but still don't come here to tell
you
how
to get out of that situation

What situation? The situation where the thing you worship wants to send
us
to eternal torture, and you agree with its perfect and righteous judgment
that we deserve it? That situation?

You worship an imaginary monster.

He provided the solution, sent his own Son so that you don't need to
suffer
what we all deserve.

- and believe me there are plenty of them, they
are the ones you'd hate even more, if you thought about what it means.

We HAVE thought what it means, and we don't see much difference between

the

two. They both agree with the supposedly righteous judgment of their god
that we DESERVE eternal torture. It doesn't matter that there's a bogus
escape clause in the name of Jesus, the fact that you would worship a

being

that would even CONSIDER sending someone to eternal torture tells us
everything we need to know about you.

God is not willing that any should perish,

but that all should come to
everlasting life. The way is open. If you go to hell, it'll be your
choice,
and not God's.

Don't be a monster to yourself.

And it's not flattering.

"He that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet".

Yes, there are those who think you are going to hell without the
Gospel,
but
still won't come here and tell you the Gospel, either because they

cannot

be
bothered or they don't like being on the receiving end of abuse - well,
who
does?

It doesn't matter. We KNOW about the gospel. Many of us know it better

than

the theists that come here.

Have you tasted it?

But say what you like about the proselytising evangelical, at least we
are trying to do something about this threat of damnation that we

believe

is
hanging over you atheists.

In my view, you are worshipping the very thing that supposedly threatens

us

with damnation. If you think damnation is a thing worth avoiding, why do

you

worship the thing that threatens us with it?

I don't worship sin, I worship Christ, who took the victory over sin and
death.

No condemnation now I dread. Jesus and all in Him is mine, as Wesley said.

Obviously you think that god's damnation is bad that we should avoid it.
I
suspect you think it's too harsh. But how can it be too harsh or bad if

you

also believe it's the perfect and righteous judgment of your god?

You might not like the fact that we believe that, but given that we do,
you
shouldn't be offended that we try and get you out of it.

Al Capone's thugs Could say the same thing. They offered shopkeepers
"insurance" in return for protection money that guaranteed their shops

would

not "mysteriously" burn down.

That's just a protection racket. You cannot compare that to the
unconditional election by God of those who do no more than believe.

Christ
has done everything that is needed. You are not being asked to pay.

He has
paid. You would think it strange if a mafioso asked you for money for
protection and then got his son to come and pay the protection fee when
you
couldn't, would you not?

So it's not a useful comparison, probably.

You are a thug for the god you believe in, whether you know it or not,
and
you're offering us the same deal Al did, except it's our supposed souls

that

are in threat of being firebombed, and it's worship the god wants instead

of

cash. (Although it seems to be trafficking in both.)

But that was due to him all along. If I am a thug, then I'm collecting a
due
debt and not some fictional protection fee for insurance.

Do you still wonder why we don't like you?

In Russia, and my car still has the badge of the insurance company that
was
my "krysha" and no doubt there is still some good protection from that -
you
pay a premium to a genuine insurance company and you get protection. If
you
don't pay, you car is likely to get nicked, and if you do, it won't be.
You
get a badge which shows people that bad things will happen to them if they
nick your car.

For an additional fee, which my then company insisted on paying for me,
you
get something called "soprovozhdenie" - which literally means
"accompaniment". This gives you a telephone number and if you get into
any
kind of difficulty a team is there for you in minutes. I had to use it
once.
I had an accident coming out of hospital the day my daughter was born, and
in Russia you have to stop dead where you are until the police arrive.
This
meant in my case that the trams couldn't get past, and about five trams
had
gotten in a queue behind me with people on the way to work. People came up
and complained and told me to go over to the side, even though the
insurance
people on the phone said that I mustn't do that, or I could end up in
trouble. People started to throng my car, because the police were slow in
getting there, and I said to the person that could they get the police to
get there any faster as people were starting to get nasty with me. They
then
said "we'll send the soprovozhdenie". I thought some lawyer was going to
turn up with a book and explain the law to people there.

In a couple of minutes a big black mercedes arrived and these huge blokes
dressed in black leather jackets with sticks and sunglasses got out and
started walking towards my car. I thought "oh *****, someone's called their
"krysha" out on me. I've obviously pissed someone important off by
blocking
the road and now I've had it" and I was praying, I can tell you. But they
came up to me and asked me to unwind my window. I unwound it a little bit,
and they said "Mr James, we've come to look after you" and chased all the
other people who had been surrounding my car off it. Only then did I know
that this 'accompaniment' was actually physical protection when you needed
it by a team of mobile bodyguards. I had imagined it was like the free
legal
time you get added on to insurance policies in the West. Soon the police
arrived and one of these guys stayed and negotiated with the police for
me,
and helped me fill the forms in.

By the end of it, I was wondering why I hadn't liked the idea of a mafia,
as
my only direct dealings with the sharp end of it seems to work fine for
me.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, in Moscow do what the Muscovites do,
and
in God's world, do what God has recommended that you do, namely, repent
and
believe in Jesus.

Denis Loubet sketched:

"David" <nugatory@pension.com> wrote in message
news:d2rkja$oo3$0@pita.alt.net...

Uzytkownik "jwk" <jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:1112622246.532071.131520@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

James wrote:

It's pretty obvious that we're not all meant to get along,

especially on

Usenet, but I have to wonder if the seemingly mutual hate between
atheists and theists here indicates a bigger problem. Is there any
reason why atheism can't coexist with Christianity, or any other

major

religion, as seems evident on Usenet? Or are many of us just

assholes

behind monitors?

In Canada, there is a sizeable population of individuals identifying
themselves to be of "no religious affiliation." Statistics

Canada

(2001) indicates it to be 4.9 million of our 30 million residents, or

16% of the population. Granted, this doesn't mean they're all

atheists,

but that's still a pretty big number to attribute to non-practicing

theists. Moreover, the 1991 Census put the number at 3.4 million of

27

million residents, or 13%, which indicates a modest growth factor.

If the number of "no religious affiliation" residents is growing,

and

the religious fervor in politics is growing in both Canada and the
United States, is there some sort of climax that must be reached?
Considering atheism is "non-denominational," meaning that as a

state of

mind we don't have any sort of organized hierarchy, is rational
discourse resulting in some sort of acceptable conclusion even

possible?

Absolutely not. How could there? "Acceptable conclusion"? Either
there is a god, or gods, or there is not. If I say there is not,
theists will disagree. If theists insist there is, I disagree.

As far as the animosity, well that is the fault of the theists.
Atheists would love to just live and let live, but the theists won't
let us. They keep trying to push their beliefs on us. Both personally
and through government run programs. They just won't let anyone live
without paying homage to their delusions, and when we try they claim
they are being discriminated against.

So you come to usenet, the one place where an atheist can vent in
relative safety, and you see atheists venting at the worst of the
theist proselytizer and you are surprised at the hostility. You
shouldn't be.

You want everyone to get along? Get theists to stop trying to take
atheist's rights away. Get them to leave us alone and we'll gladly
stop cussing them out in the dark room of usenet.

jwk

It's not that we want to annoy you. If you believed as we did you would
see
that we don't really have any choice in the matter.

Yes you do. You could recognize the god character for the monster it is,

and

seek to overthrow it as anyone with an ounce of integrity would do.

But God is God, and we are the creature. If something in God doesn't appeal
to us, then it's us who are at fault, not God.

You probably wouldn't like watching the way in nature a bird will sometimes
peck another's eye out. But you don't try to overthrow that monstrosity of
nature. you accept that some things which displease you are needful in
nature, and that in the end it is all part of nature's beauty.

We believe you are going to hell,

And you agree with your god that we DESERVE that hell.

Yes, and so do I. We all do.

That kind of puts any subsequent discussion at a bit of a disadvantage,
doesn't it?

Why? I say we all deserve it, and only believing is the difference not any
moral superiority. I am not morally superior to you, I may never be in this
life, although some of your drawings do reveal a certain wickedness about
you, it is, like, nothing in comparison with mine.

We all deserve hell.

I mean, I don't think YOU deserve to be tortured forever. I
wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I just think you're kind of deluded,

but

you think I DESERVE a punishment I wouldn't wish on Hitler.

I don't wish it on you, or on Hitler. It is a fact that we deserve it, and
it is a fact that we don't have to have what we deserve, because Jesus
covered the matter, and applies his blood as the ransom for anyone who only,
in belief and repentance, asks for it.

Why? What did I ever do to you?

Nothing. You only entertained me, gave me interesting pictures to look at on
your website. I have nothing personal against you what so ever.

that's a fact about what we believe. The
people who believe this about you, but still don't come here to tell you
how
to get out of that situation

What situation? The situation where the thing you worship wants to send us
to eternal torture, and you agree with its perfect and righteous judgment
that we deserve it? That situation?

You worship an imaginary monster.

He provided the solution, sent his own Son so that you don't need to suffer
what we all deserve.

- and believe me there are plenty of them, they
are the ones you'd hate even more, if you thought about what it means.

We HAVE thought what it means, and we don't see much difference between

the

two. They both agree with the supposedly righteous judgment of their god
that we DESERVE eternal torture. It doesn't matter that there's a bogus
escape clause in the name of Jesus, the fact that you would worship a

being

that would even CONSIDER sending someone to eternal torture tells us
everything we need to know about you.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
everlasting life. The way is open. If you go to hell, it'll be your choice,
and not God's.

Don't be a monster to yourself.

And it's not flattering.

"He that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet".

Yes, there are those who think you are going to hell without the Gospel,
but
still won't come here and tell you the Gospel, either because they

cannot

be
bothered or they don't like being on the receiving end of abuse - well,
who
does?

It doesn't matter. We KNOW about the gospel. Many of us know it better

than

the theists that come here.

Have you tasted it?

But say what you like about the proselytising evangelical, at least we
are trying to do something about this threat of damnation that we

believe

is
hanging over you atheists.

In my view, you are worshipping the very thing that supposedly threatens

us

with damnation. If you think damnation is a thing worth avoiding, why do

you

worship the thing that threatens us with it?

I don't worship sin, I worship Christ, who took the victory over sin and
death.

No condemnation now I dread. Jesus and all in Him is mine, as Wesley said.

Obviously you think that god's damnation is bad that we should avoid it. I
suspect you think it's too harsh. But how can it be too harsh or bad if

you

also believe it's the perfect and righteous judgment of your god?

You might not like the fact that we believe that, but given that we do,
you
shouldn't be offended that we try and get you out of it.

Al Capone's thugs Could say the same thing. They offered shopkeepers
"insurance" in return for protection money that guaranteed their shops

would

not "mysteriously" burn down.

That's just a protection racket. You cannot compare that to the
unconditional election by God of those who do no more than believe. Christ
has done everything that is needed. You are not being asked to pay. He has
paid. You would think it strange if a mafioso asked you for money for
protection and then got his son to come and pay the protection fee when you
couldn't, would you not?