| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
20 May 2005 06:04:10 AM |
| Object: |
Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
From the article:
-------------------------------
"Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth
can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are
resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry."
These words by the evolutionary scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky will make
all the activist doubters uncomfortable who are trying to defend their
belief in some kind of god promising them an everlasting life by
discrediting evolution.
Or those who have been targeting scientists and science writers with
abusive language merely because they confront their ignorance with the
uneasy fact of evolutionary science.
What is astonishing is the way in which these ignorant doubters cling to
all the hackneyed arguments propagated by their spiritual leaders, using
unscientific material produced by creationists and Intelligent Design
theorists.
They distort the facts about evolution and clearly believe if you repeat
something long and loud enough, it will become the truth.
----------------------------------
Read it at http://www.news24.com/News24/Columnists/George_Claassen/0,,2-
1630-1827_1707889,00.html or http://tinyurl.com/chotm
J. Spaceman
.
|
|
| User: "wmech" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
20 May 2005 08:58:32 AM |
|
|
Anyone that seriously looks at the Universe, the Earth and it's exceedingly
numerous catastrophes, diseases, birth defects, etc. has to call this
"Unintelligent Design"!
--
Bill
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:Xns965C47F0D98F2notreallyjspacemanho@216.196.97.142...
From the article:
-------------------------------
"Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the
earth
can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are
resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry."
These words by the evolutionary scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky will make
all the activist doubters uncomfortable who are trying to defend their
belief in some kind of god promising them an everlasting life by
discrediting evolution.
Or those who have been targeting scientists and science writers with
abusive language merely because they confront their ignorance with the
uneasy fact of evolutionary science.
What is astonishing is the way in which these ignorant doubters cling to
all the hackneyed arguments propagated by their spiritual leaders, using
unscientific material produced by creationists and Intelligent Design
theorists.
They distort the facts about evolution and clearly believe if you repeat
something long and loud enough, it will become the truth.
----------------------------------
Read it at http://www.news24.com/News24/Columnists/George_Claassen/0,,2-
1630-1827_1707889,00.html or http://tinyurl.com/chotm
J. Spaceman
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
20 May 2005 10:49:14 AM |
|
|
"wmech" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:6Wlje.2608$lQ3.2584@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
Anyone that seriously looks at the Universe, the Earth and it's
exceedingly
numerous catastrophes, diseases, birth defects, etc. has to call this
"Unintelligent Design"!
SD: Sadistic Design
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Brian E. Clark" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
02 Jun 2005 07:34:51 PM |
|
|
In article <Xns965C47F0D98F2notreallyjspacemanho@
216.196.97.142>, Jason Spaceman said...
They distort the facts about evolution and clearly believe if you repeat
something long and loud enough, it will become the truth.
How could it be otherwise? Such is the form of proof offered to
these people in church week after week, year after year.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Barry Trotter" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
20 May 2005 06:30:30 AM |
|
|
In the great debate about "Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a
fact'" in alt.atheism, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> catapaulted the following boulder:
From the article:
-------------------------------
"Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth
can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are
resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry."
These words by the evolutionary scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky will make
all the activist doubters uncomfortable who are trying to defend their
belief in some kind of god promising them an everlasting life by
discrediting evolution.
Or those who have been targeting scientists and science writers with
abusive language merely because they confront their ignorance with the
uneasy fact of evolutionary science.
What is astonishing is the way in which these ignorant doubters cling to
all the hackneyed arguments propagated by their spiritual leaders, using
unscientific material produced by creationists and Intelligent Design
theorists.
They distort the facts about evolution and clearly believe if you repeat
something long and loud enough, it will become the truth.
----------------------------------
Read it at http://www.news24.com/News24/Columnists/George_Claassen/0,,2-
1630-1827_1707889,00.html or http://tinyurl.com/chotm
J. Spaceman
Linking to this page sicks up two adverts for sites, one peddling
Intelligent Design theory, and worse, one brandishing lies about
science designed to try and mislead supporters of creationism into
believing that there is proof of creation.
Far from putting these equivocations of science into the school
curriculum, it is high time that peddling them was made a criminal
offence. Quite simply I cannot accept that the people peddling these
theories actually believe them. That being the case, they are
committing fraud every time they collect money.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
02 Jun 2005 08:17:30 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 20 May 2005, Barry Trotter <trotb02@hogwash.ac.uk> wrote:
Far from putting these equivocations of science into the school
curriculum, it is high time that peddling them was made a criminal
offence. Quite simply I cannot accept that the people peddling these
theories actually believe them. That being the case, they are
committing fraud every time they collect money.
I doubt that the claims can be criminalized per se, but maybe you
could find a way to make a fraud case in court.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pax Cosmos" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
20 May 2005 02:31:16 PM |
|
|
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
"Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the
earth
can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are
resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain
bigotry."
Sounds reasonable to me. Since the evidence is available to everyone,
and since anyone who is open to the evidence should see how it is
overwhelmingly in favor of evolution, then it makes sense that only
those who are ignorant of that evidence, or who are resistant to it,
would doubt evolution.
But what *are* these emotional blocks of which he speaks? And how
exactly *does* "plain bigotry" operate? It seems to me that if we're
upholding scientific knowledge and method by supporting evolution, we
should also do the same when it comes to describing these psychological
impediments to the acceptance of evolution. I don't think we should be
satisfied with simple, easy answers. Especially when we don't seem
able to overcome these psychological obstacles and "make them see
reason" with the methods we are now using.
These words by the evolutionary scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky will
make
all the activist doubters uncomfortable who are trying to defend
their
belief in some kind of god promising them an everlasting life by
discrediting evolution.
I haven't seen much evidence so far that these sorts of words are
making the activist doubters uncomfortable. From what I've seen so
far, they dismiss such words quite easily, the same way they dismiss or
distort the evidence for evolution. Perhaps this is more a hope than
an observation of facts on the ground?
Or those who have been targeting scientists and science writers with
abusive language merely because they confront their ignorance with
the
uneasy fact of evolutionary science.
What is astonishing is the way in which these ignorant doubters cling
to
all the hackneyed arguments propagated by their spiritual leaders,
using
unscientific material produced by creationists and Intelligent Design
theorists.
While such an observation may be interesting, I wouldn't say that it's
"astonishing." Not when the clinging to such unscientific, hackneyed
arguments has been so common within dogmatic religious cultures for
centuries, going back to the time of Copernicus and even before that.
Instead, what would be astonishing is if all the dogmatic religious
types would *stop* clinging to such hackneyed arguments. For this
would be way out of character for them, and would really be a surprise!
To me, what is really astonishing is the fact that, even though we know
so little about the subjective mind, and why so many people cling to
such outmoded ideas, there seems to be so little interest within the
scientific community for more research to be done, and so little
pressure from the educated public for them to do it. It's like they
either don't care, or are afraid of offending people's religious
sensibilities by asking the hard questions and doing the relevant
research. But this makes little sense to me, since they are at the
same time fighting tooth and nail against the intrusion of
pseudoscience into the classroom. Go figure...
I guess that scientists and educated people can be subject to emotional
blocks as well...
They distort the facts about evolution and clearly believe if you
repeat
something long and loud enough, it will become the truth.
----------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.news24.com/News24/Columnists/George_Claassen/0,,2-
1630-1827_1707889,00.html or http://tinyurl.com/chotm
Perhaps in the future, when more is understood about the subjective
mind, these sorts of discussions will seem quaint.
Pax
.
|
|
|
| User: "skyeyes" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
03 Jun 2005 05:41:08 PM |
|
|
Pax Cosmos wrote:
But what *are* these emotional blocks of which he speaks? And how
exactly *does* "plain bigotry" operate? It seems to me that if we're
upholding scientific knowledge and method by supporting evolution, we
should also do the same when it comes to describing these psychological
impediments to the acceptance of evolution. I don't think we should be
satisfied with simple, easy answers. Especially when we don't seem
able to overcome these psychological obstacles and "make them see
reason" with the methods we are now using.
Here's the key, kiddo: the debate about evolution *isn't* *about*
evolution. It's about salvation. Fundamentalists are terrified of
being dead. Therefore, they need to be "saved," i.e., put in a
position to live everlasting in heaven with God.
These folks take a strict, formulaic view of the means of salvation,
and it requires every single thing in the Bible to be literally *true*.
Therefore, the creation story in Genesis *must* be true, for if Adam
and Eve didn't eat the apple in the Garden of Eden, then there is no
original sin needing to be "washed away" by Jesus' death on the cross.
If there's no need for sin to be washed away...then...then...everybody
dies just like everything *else* in the world dies, and we wanna live
everlasting lives!!!!!
IOW, remove one little stick from the construction and the whole
edifice crumbles.
Scientists can gather data and prove the veracity of evolution until
they're blue in their faces, and it won't change the fundy outlook one
little bit. They want everlasting life, goddammit, and they're going
to get it if they have to destroy every school in the U.S. to keep
their worst fear at bay.
Brenda "Former Fundy" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
05 Jun 2005 11:46:53 PM |
|
|
On 3 Jun 2005 15:41:08 -0700, "skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote:
Pax Cosmos wrote:
But what *are* these emotional blocks of which he speaks? And how
exactly *does* "plain bigotry" operate? It seems to me that if we're
upholding scientific knowledge and method by supporting evolution, we
should also do the same when it comes to describing these psychological
impediments to the acceptance of evolution. I don't think we should be
satisfied with simple, easy answers. Especially when we don't seem
able to overcome these psychological obstacles and "make them see
reason" with the methods we are now using.
Here's the key, kiddo: the debate about evolution *isn't* *about*
evolution. It's about salvation. Fundamentalists are terrified of
being dead. Therefore, they need to be "saved," i.e., put in a
position to live everlasting in heaven with God.
These folks take a strict, formulaic view of the means of salvation,
and it requires every single thing in the Bible to be literally *true*.
Therefore, the creation story in Genesis *must* be true, for if Adam
and Eve didn't eat the apple in the Garden of Eden, then there is no
original sin needing to be "washed away" by Jesus' death on the cross.
If there's no need for sin to be washed away...then...then...everybody
dies just like everything *else* in the world dies, and we wanna live
everlasting lives!!!!!
IOW, remove one little stick from the construction and the whole
edifice crumbles.
Scientists can gather data and prove the veracity of evolution until
they're blue in their faces, and it won't change the fundy outlook one
little bit. They want everlasting life, goddammit, and they're going
to get it if they have to destroy every school in the U.S. to keep
their worst fear at bay.
Or kill billions.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "John Popelish" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
06 Jun 2005 12:22:59 AM |
|
|
skyeyes wrote:
Here's the key, kiddo: the debate about evolution *isn't* *about*
evolution. It's about salvation. Fundamentalists are terrified of
being dead. Therefore, they need to be "saved," i.e., put in a
position to live everlasting in heaven with God.
These folks take a strict, formulaic view of the means of salvation,
and it requires every single thing in the Bible to be literally *true*.
Therefore, the creation story in Genesis *must* be true, for if Adam
and Eve didn't eat the apple in the Garden of Eden, then there is no
original sin needing to be "washed away" by Jesus' death on the cross.
If there's no need for sin to be washed away...then...then...everybody
dies just like everything *else* in the world dies, and we wanna live
everlasting lives!!!!!
IOW, remove one little stick from the construction and the whole
edifice crumbles.
Scientists can gather data and prove the veracity of evolution until
they're blue in their faces, and it won't change the fundy outlook one
little bit. They want everlasting life, goddammit, and they're going
to get it if they have to destroy every school in the U.S. to keep
their worst fear at bay.
Brenda, I thank you for such a clear sighted and plain spoken
explanation. I sometimes forget that it is impossible to understand
the fundy mind by simply extrapolating from how my own works. I can't
get there from here without some clean leaps. I have added your
insight to my mental fundy mind model and have high hopes for its
improved operation.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
06 Jun 2005 12:29:36 AM |
|
|
skyeyes wrote:
Pax Cosmos wrote:
But what *are* these emotional blocks of which he speaks? And how
exactly *does* "plain bigotry" operate? It seems to me that if we're
upholding scientific knowledge and method by supporting evolution, we
should also do the same when it comes to describing these psychological
impediments to the acceptance of evolution. I don't think we should be
satisfied with simple, easy answers. Especially when we don't seem
able to overcome these psychological obstacles and "make them see
reason" with the methods we are now using.
Here's the key, kiddo: the debate about evolution *isn't* *about*
evolution. It's about salvation. Fundamentalists are terrified of
being dead. Therefore, they need to be "saved," i.e., put in a
position to live everlasting in heaven with God.
These folks take a strict, formulaic view of the means of salvation,
and it requires every single thing in the Bible to be literally *true*.
Therefore, the creation story in Genesis *must* be true, for if Adam
and Eve didn't eat the apple in the Garden of Eden, then there is no
original sin needing to be "washed away" by Jesus' death on the cross.
If there's no need for sin to be washed away...then...then...everybody
dies just like everything *else* in the world dies, and we wanna live
everlasting lives!!!!!
IOW, remove one little stick from the construction and the whole
edifice crumbles.
Scientists can gather data and prove the veracity of evolution until
they're blue in their faces, and it won't change the fundy outlook one
little bit. They want everlasting life, goddammit, and they're going
to get it if they have to destroy every school in the U.S. to keep
their worst fear at bay.
Brenda "Former Fundy" Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
As another former baby fundie I want to affirm this. When we ask
biblical literalists to consider the possibility that they are wrong
about any religious matter, we are literally threatening them with
death. Or so they believe. If they are wrong about one thing they could
be wrong about anything, and therefore they will die.
Oh, other things are mixed in there: the need to belong, the security
of the familiar, a mythology to make sense of the world. But I think,
for most of them, the biggest motive of all is fear of death. (Death
for their loved ones as well as themselves.)
What shall I tell my aged mother when I see her next? Yes, Mom, you're
going to die soon, and you be dead, dead, dead. And so will I in a few
years. I shall not bring this subject up, but she will (providing no
comfort ot either of us). And those of you who are science friendly but
still theists are no help; from the fundamentalist's viewpoint it's all
the same - either they're right in all respects, or it comes crashing
down around their ears.
But the "Intelligent Design" instigators are doing this for power,
noteriety, and money. Just like the literalists were reluctant to get
involved in politics when I was a kid but are now obssessed with it, so
too, they would simply have ignored science education today if there
weren't someone to always exacerbate the conflict.
Back when Commies were the enemy (in the US in the 50s), the religious
right supported good science education in the public schools, even if
they grumbled about evolutionary science. But now it *is the enemy. It,
and critical thinking in general. And since it is also the enemy of the
most egregious political tactics, a large segment of the politicians
are in cahoots with 'em.
Kermit
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
06 Jun 2005 09:23:12 AM |
|
|
The debate with Intelligent Design is not the question of whether
Evolution goes on and has gone on but whether the sole driver has been
randomness. Randomness will produce a fossil record and a variety of
organisms provided that there are no significant differences in
intelligence between the various species.
One thing which I cannot see is how in the absense of statistics and
probability being mandated as well a law is ever going to be enforced.
Evolution will almost certainly be taught in a purely phenomenological
way with little stress being put on drivers, and no statistical
analysis.
As I have said before GAs are the main tools for the statistical
analysis of the randomness concept, although pen and paper evaluations
are in order too. Personally I do not see how randomness is compatable
with the heavy weather being made in AI
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "D-word" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
06 Jun 2005 12:43:57 AM |
|
|
skyeyes wrote:
Scientists can gather data and prove the veracity of evolution until
they're blue in their faces, and it won't change the fundy outlook one
little bit. They want everlasting life, goddammit, and they're going
to get it if they have to destroy every school in the U.S. to keep
their worst fear at bay.
I agree. Fighting to keep evolution in the schools won't educate the
fundy mind (nothing will), but it will annoy the crap out of them, and
in the end that is what really matters. Let's not forget that.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Roger Coppock" |
|
| Title: Re: Columnist: 'Evolution is, I'm afraid, a fact' |
06 Jun 2005 12:58:38 AM |
|
|
My my! He does give those creationists what for, doesn't he?
Just a minor nit-pick, the author said,
"Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, . . ."
The author is wrong; Newton never had a theory
of gravitation, just a law. When asked how gravity
worked, Newton said, "I offer no explaination."
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
