Jesus Christ <Jesus@christ.hvn> :

Jesus Christ <Jesus@christ.hvn> :

Jason Spaceman <IEatSpammersForBreakfast@rogers.com> :

From the article:

--------------------------------------------
And while we discuss church and state, can we please stop
pretending atheism is not a religion? The belief there is no God
is as much a philosophy as a belief there is one. One difference
being that under atheist governments such as Nazi, Soviet or
Maoist, gay people were treated far worse than under any
Christian-influenced administration.
------------------------------------------

The full column is at
http://www.torontosun.com/Columnists/coren.html




J. Spaceman

My email reply to him and the newspaper:

In his August 9th column, Michael Coren describes the Nazi
government as an atheist government.

If this is the case, Nazi Germany was the first atheistic country
in history that mandated school prayer, had its soldiers sprinkled
with holy water and wear "God is with us" on their belt buckles,
and whose leader openly and boldy stated he was doing God's work.

While the defence "Hitler didn't behave like a Christian" is
thrown about, he certainly thought he was one. He professed his
theism on numerous occasions (both in public and private), used it
to justify his racist beliefs (also both in public and private)
and instituted his hateful bastardization of Jesus' teachings as
the official state religion.

While belief in the divine nature of Jesus Christ may not equate
"True" Christianity in Mr. Coren's eyes, it certainly does not
equate atheism to anyone who is rational, regardless of the
person's religious affiliation.

And his response to me:

Thanks so very much. I think you need to do some deeper work on
this. Some urban myths here. The belt buckles were WW1, and some
were left over for 1939. As for holy water, can you really imagine
Lutheran men from Prussia allowing such "Popish" acts? Theism, by
the way, is very specific, and is not Christianity. But Hitler was
very precise on how he intended to destroy Christianity after the
Jews. Look at what happened to the Confessing Church? I don't wish
to sound patronising, but as a Jew who lost so many during the
Shoah I find some of what you say to be a little annoying. First
country to have school prayer? What rot! The French education
system, the British one - all of this nineteenth-century. The
people who twisted Jesus's teachings were the National Church, a
small Lutheran group who had no influence. Himmler and Hitler were
pagans, Goering an aesthete who believed nothing, and those who
formed National Socialism were hateful of what they saw as
"Jew-influenced Christianity" - rather like Voltaire in this case.
Goodness me, Hitler's worship of Wagner and Houston Chamberlain
must tell you something. The SS even had their own gods, and
Hitler hoped for the day when the RC church was nothing more than
"a few old ladies." Important to get facts right here and not fall
into pop history. I know it because I've had to learn it - no
option.

Yikes! The Toronto Sun has quite a few good editors if they can
turn chicken-scratch like this into a column!

Working on a reply right now.

And here it is:




Mr. Coren,

Thank you for your reply.

Firstly, I did not say that Nazi Germany was the first government to
institute prayer in schools. I was saying if they were an atheist
government as asserted in the column, then they were the first atheist
government to put prayer in school. As a writer, I'm sure you're
familiar with using irony as a device in debate.

Secondly, if all the belt buckles were left over from World War 1 and
the Weimar republic, how come the ones used in World War 2 had the
swastika emblazoned on them? The National Socialists adopted the
swastika well after World War 1.

Here are some pictures of the various buckles:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/buckle.jpg
http://oldguns.net/smm1499.jpg
http://oldguns.net/smm1309.jpg

Thirdly, theism is defined by Websters as the "belief or
acknowledgment of the existence of a God, as opposed to atheism,
pantheism, or polytheism." While all theists aren't Christians, all
Christians are theists by the very definition of Christianity. I
stated Hitler was a theist in contrast to your position that he was an
atheist.

The Toronto Sun has, in the past, replied to the statement that
"Hitler was not an atheist" with the statement "he didn't behave as a
Christian", so in my original draft I avoided mentioning Christianity
all together. The word "theism" was carried along to the copy I
actually sent. I do agree, however, he did not stand for the
principles that Jesus taught and admired, but that could be said for
the vast majority of Christian leaders both today and throughout
history. I am not targeting Christianity here: the same can be said
for Muslim leaders when it comes to Islamic teachings and Buddhist
leaders when it comes to Buddhist teachings. The Dalai Lama himself
admitted last month when he gets angry he shoots hawks, which is
completely out of the live-and-let-live philosophy of Buddhism.

Fourthly, Hitler himself said the following in April 1922 with regards
to his Christianity:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at
last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for
the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand
years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever
before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood
upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be
cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting
rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I
have also a duty to my own people." (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The
Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp.
19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

This is but one of the countless quotes from him, both public and
private, both reported on by others to those from the tip of his very
own pen, that show he honestly professed a belief in the deity of
Christ and that he felt he was acting on behalf of the Lord on earth.
Again, while he did not act like a Christian was supposed to, he
certainly believed in Christ.

Yours,
[signed]

And he replied:

Thanks so very much. 1922 - exactly. He was also supporting capitlaism
then and anything else that might give him power. In 22 there were still
anti-hate laws and Hitler was very limited and rather powerless. You have
to look to his genuine beliefs. This belt buckle thing comes up time and
time again. I've interviewed German soldiers, seen their belts - the
average buckle was plain if anything. A few exceptions do not make the
rules. The Christian oath of the army was removed by Hitler. Come on,
you're a bright man. The argument that Hitler was a follower of the
Jewish Messiah is absurd.

RC ones in the south were severely restricted. The motivaiton and
foundation of the Nazis was atheistic - some even believe that it was
clearly Satanic. They looked to the pre-Christian northern religions of,
they thought, strength and honour. Thanks though - it's refreshing to
hear from intelligent critics rather than people who can't spell and just
abuse me.



Working on another response...
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