| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
24 Jun 2005 06:18:55 AM |
| Object: |
Commentary: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design |
From the article:
-------------------------------------
Driving around yesterday, I was listening to Kojo Nandi on WKMU, one of
those ultra-liberal, anti-American, Commie-inspired public radio stations.
Someone called in to talk about evolution. I almost ran off the road as I
heard this intelligent-sounding fellow talk about how many scientists have
given up on evolution, that it's not even really a theory but a hypothesis,
that there's no proof of evolution, that the fossil record is a joke, and
that "fairness" demands that we teach Intelligent Design as well as
evolution.
He was so full of buffalo lard, it's hard to even know where to begin, but
the sad reality is that people like this can't be swayed by reason, logic,
or facts. They've distorted the world to fit their own bizarre world view.
And then I remembered two things:
First, a quote in this month's Discover Magazine by Nobel laureate Leon
Lederman in his 1993 book The God Particle. He said, The Higgs field, the
standard model, and our picture of how God made the universe depend on
finding the Higgs boson." And I realized something. Scientists have no
problem with God. Many physicists, biologists, astronomers and others are
deeply religious. One of Einstein's most famous quotes was a result of his
dismay at the implications of quantum physics--namely that the world is
governed by probability curves and is not Newtonian. Einstein: "I cannot
believe that God plays dice with the world.
Many scientists see no dispute between God and science. Why then do so many
at the fringe of Christianity get themselves tied in knots over science.
---------------------------------------
Read it at http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/06/23/091106.php
J. Spaceman
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design |
02 Jul 2005 01:57:39 PM |
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DanielSan wrote:
jfacts@earthlink.net wrote:
josephus wrote:
[...]
In "Meine Kampfe" which I have read, Hitler shows fundy traits.
Wanting to create a new German state based on race
with him the absolute dictator shows fundy traits?
Anyway, got any specific examples? Just tell me where
there are in Mein Kampf--I have a copy.
"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious
education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his
spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two
thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of
course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish
people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the
temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always
saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In
return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party
Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections
and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish
parties-- and this against their own nation." (Vol 1, Chap 11: "Nation
and Race")
Got a page number? That chapter is 45 pages long.
BTW, the last time you gave me some quotes
supposedly from Mein Kampf they didn't exist on the
page numbers you cited. I posted this info to you and
you never responded.
"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient wor ld,
but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own
doctrine." (Vol 1, Chap 12: "The First Period fo Development of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party")
Ditto the above.
In a speech on April 12, 1922:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a
few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men
to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a
sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man
I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in
His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of
vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the
Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I
recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this
that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no
duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter
for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could
demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily
grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
So you believe Hitler when he says he is "a fighter for
truth and justice"? Or do you pick and choose what,
from the above, you will believe?
Why don't you address the 30 Points of the National Reich
Church and explain how one could support those provisions
and be a Christian.
He
believes God is on his side and everyone else is wrong. Isn't that what
fundies do?
Yeah, but I don't think that is a sufficient condition to
make him a fundy.
What, exactly, would you call a "fundy," then?
What do you mean "then"? Do you think "believes God
is on his side and everyone else is wrong" is the definition
of fundy?
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design |
03 Jul 2005 06:01:33 PM |
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wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
wrote:
josephus wrote:
[...]
In "Meine Kampfe" which I have read, Hitler shows fundy traits.
Wanting to create a new German state based on race
with him the absolute dictator shows fundy traits?
Anyway, got any specific examples? Just tell me where
there are in Mein Kampf--I have a copy.
"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious
education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his
spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two
thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of
course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish
people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the
temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always
saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In
return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party
Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections
and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish
parties-- and this against their own nation." (Vol 1, Chap 11: "Nation
and Race")
Got a page number? That chapter is 45 pages long.
No. Do some reading on your own.
BTW, the last time you gave me some quotes
supposedly from Mein Kampf they didn't exist on the
page numbers you cited. I posted this info to you and
you never responded.
I do have a life and when I get back to AA, there is usually 800-1000
posts. It probably got lost.
However, page numbers are dubious to go by. I gave you volume number
and chapter number. I am not doing any more homework for you. Do your own.
"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient wor ld,
but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own
doctrine." (Vol 1, Chap 12: "The First Period fo Development of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party")
Ditto the above.
Do your own homework.
In a speech on April 12, 1922:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a
few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men
to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a
sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man
I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in
His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of
vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the
Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I
recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this
that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no
duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter
for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could
demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily
grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
So you believe Hitler when he says he is "a fighter for
truth and justice"? Or do you pick and choose what,
from the above, you will believe?
So, what makes a Christian a Christian, then, if not belief in God,
Jesus and the Bible?
Why don't you address the 30 Points of the National Reich
Church and explain how one could support those provisions
and be a Christian.
Got a URL to the NRC? I already did enough research.
He
believes God is on his side and everyone else is wrong. Isn't that what
fundies do?
Yeah, but I don't think that is a sufficient condition to
make him a fundy.
What, exactly, would you call a "fundy," then?
What do you mean "then"? Do you think "believes God
is on his side and everyone else is wrong" is the definition
of fundy?
Yes.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design |
03 Jul 2005 10:16:43 AM |
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On 2 Jul 2005 11:57:39 -0700,
jfacts@earthlink.net <jfacts@earthlink.net> wrote:
Got a page number? That chapter is 45 pages long.
BTW, the last time you gave me some quotes
supposedly from Mein Kampf they didn't exist on the
page numbers you cited. I posted this info to you and
you never responded.
That's pretty unfair. A book like Mein Kampf might have many different
printings. If you have a copy of the Communist Manifesto, I'll wager that
unless it's from the same publisher, the page numbers won't match.
It almost sound like you're claiming he's lying.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design |
02 Jul 2005 12:42:13 PM |
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On 1 Jul 2005 17:20:53 -0700, wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
AC wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:01:13 -0700,
maf 1029 <kl@mn.qr> wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "co ntrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Cathol icism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
I'm perfectly willing to concede the point that Hitler wasn't a Christian.
I won't even argue it, because it wasn't Hitler or his cronies who did the
actual killing, it was all those Protestant and Catholic bureaucrats and
soldiers who did the actual dirty work. So, hey, Hitler wasn't a real
Christian, but what about the guards at the concentration camps? What about
the guy that serviced the ovens and the poison gas delivery systems? At
what point do you just decide that a huge chunk of Germany between about
1938 and 1945 was not Christian? And do you draw the line there? What
about the centuries of anti-semitism that dominated Christian Europe?
Is there actually such a thing as a Christian at all?
Depends. When talking about Hitler and Christianity, are you referring
to the brand of Christianity put forth by the Church or the brand
written about in the Bible?
Hitler worshipped the latter and hated the former.
Do you have any evidence that Hitler worshipped anything?
There are the words of Hitler himself describing himself as a defender
of Jesus.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design |
03 Jul 2005 10:07:40 AM |
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thomas p wrote:
On 1 Jul 2005 17:20:53 -0700, wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
AC wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:01:13 -0700,
maf 1029 <kl@mn.qr> wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "co ntrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Cathol icism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Ro uen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn ev en a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
I'm perfectly willing to concede the point that Hitler wasn't a Christian.
I won't even argue it, because it wasn't Hitler or his cro nies who did the
actual killing, it was all those Protestant and Catholic bureaucrats and
soldiers who did the actual dirty work. So, hey, Hitler wasn't a real
Christian, but what about the guards at the concentration camps? What ab out
the guy that serviced the ovens and the poison gas delivery systems? At
what point do you just decide that a huge chunk of Germany between about
1938 and 1945 was not Christian? And do you draw the line there? What
about the centuries of anti-semitism that dominated Christian Europe?
Is there actually such a thing as a Christian at all?
Depends. When talking about Hitler and Christianity, are you referring
to the brand of Christianity put fo rth by the Church or the brand
written about in the Bible?
Hitler worshipped the latter and hated the former.
Do you have any evidence that Hitler worshipped anything?
There are the words of Hitler himself describing himself as a defender
of Jesus.
Ah. So do you have any evidenceThat Hitler worshipped
anything?
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)µ
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design |
03 Jul 2005 01:23:33 PM |
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On 3 Jul 2005 08:07:40 -0700, wrote:
thomas p wrote:
On 1 Jul 2005 17:20:53 -0700, wrote:
snip
Do you have any evidence that Hitler worshipped anything?
There are the words of Hitler himself describing himself as a defender
of Jesus.
Ah. So do you have any evidenceThat Hitler worshipped
anything?
Besides the quotes already given in which he described himself as a
Christian? Just how many do you require?
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
29 Jun 2005 05:52:00 PM |
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maf 1029 wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "contrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Catholicism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
30 Jun 2005 12:39:09 AM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 12:36:15 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 01:19:29 AM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Hopefully not on my account.
If you like it, what the hell. Nobody has to vote for it if
they don't like it.
It just seems to me that whether or not someone is a
"Christian" is really dependent on their beliefs. The
rest of us are left to infer a belief from their statements
and actions.
Although I agree that the "Christian" argument that
Hitler would surely have behaved differently if he
was a Christian is as bogus as bogus can get, I also
agree that public statements made by Hitler are no
indication either.
Religion is extremely useful. It's kept the British in
the north of Ireland for over 100 years, the Israelis
in the west bank for 40 years and has piled Republican
coffers high with the cash from some of the most desperate,
needy people in the country.
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 12:10:09 PM |
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Because one person had a critical remark about it? You do have
_skin_, don't you? :-?
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 10:13:41 AM |
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:10:09 -0700, in talk.origins , Uncle Buck
<UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> in
<3r98c1hl15f1lurnln88q31l3aju6g1brs@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Because one person had a critical remark about it? You do have
_skin_, don't you? :-?
Perhaps he figure that it was a strawman. And factually incorrect as
well. And poorly written. But other than that, what is wrong with it?
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 08:15:57 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:10:09 -0700, in talk.origins , Uncle Buck
<UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> in
<3r98c1hl15f1lurnln88q31l3aju6g1brs@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Because one person had a critical remark about it? You do have
_skin_, don't you? :-?
Perhaps he figure that it was a strawman. And factually incorrect as
well. And poorly written. But other than that, what is wrong with it?
Hahahahahahahaha! Not a thing, Matt, not a thing.
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 01:33:43 PM |
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:13:41 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:10:09 -0700, in talk.origins , Uncle Buck
<UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> in
<3r98c1hl15f1lurnln88q31l3aju6g1brs@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Because one person had a critical remark about it? You do have
_skin_, don't you? :-?
Perhaps he figure that it was a strawman. And factually incorrect as
well. And poorly written. But other than that, what is wrong with it?
Who's talking about what was nominated? I was addressing the
nomination, itself, the fact that it was withdrawn because of one
critical remark. The withdrawer didn't express that he agreed with
the criticism, he only expressed: "*shrug*". Terribly thin-skinned,
at least on the face of it.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs.IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 11:28:56 AM |
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Uncle Buck wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Because one person had a critical remark about it? You do have
_skin_, don't you? :-?
Well, the submission contained a mistake regarding the claim that Joan
of Arc *was* raped rather than the *threat* of rape. I will gladly
resubmit the nomination if maf 1029 reposts his message with the "rape"
claim either removed or altered to match the facts. :-)
.
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| User: "maf 1029" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 02:06:01 AM |
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Thanks anyway, DS. I guess poking fun at an argument that's been done
to death is too much humor for John (JTEM) and his ilk.
Oh, and thanks for the Joan of Arc info/correction. It was very nice
of you not to accuse me of lying (unlike Matty S.) when you posted the
quotes and links.
maf and dog, aa #1954
EAC Cruise Director and Lounge Pianist, Respectively
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs.IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 03:22:02 AM |
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maf 1029 wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Thanks anyway, DS. I guess poking fun at an argument that's been done
to death is too much humor for John (JTEM) and his ilk.
Oh, and thanks for the Joan of Arc info/correction. It was very nice
of you not to accuse me of lying (unlike Matty S.) when you posted the
quotes and links.
No problem. I don't accuse folks of lying unless they have proven
themselves to be so, usually after I, or someone else, introduces them
to the facts of the matter and they continue to state their rhetoric,
even in the face of the facts. Duke, for example.
maf and dog, aa #1954
EAC Cruise Director and Lounge Pianist, Respectively
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| User: "Yvonne Craig, Dancer/Actress I wish!" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs.IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 03:48:44 AM |
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:22:02 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Thanks anyway, DS. I guess poking fun at an argument that's been done
to death is too much humor for John (JTEM) and his ilk.
Oh, and thanks for the Joan of Arc info/correction. It was very nice
of you not to accuse me of lying (unlike Matty S.) when you posted the
quotes and links.
No problem. I don't accuse folks of lying unless they have proven
themselves to be so, usually after I, or someone else, introduces them
to the facts of the matter and they continue to state their rhetoric,
even in the face of the facts. Duke, for example.
Oh, Puke has a special place in my idiot bin, along with several
others who would be absolutely shocked --- SHOCKED, I tell you -- at
being permanently plonked from my newsreader.
maf and dog, aa #1954
EAC Cruise Director and Lounge Pianist, Respectively
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs. IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 09:43:38 AM |
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maf 1029 wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Thanks anyway, DS. I guess poking fun at an argument that's been done
to death is too much humor for John (JTEM) and his ilk.
Have you read the provisions of the National Reich Church?
How do you reconcile Hitlers alleged Christianity with those
provisions? If you can please do so since I would prever to
call Hitler a Christian with a clear conscience.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs.IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 10:50:16 AM |
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wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Thanks anyway, DS. I guess poking fun at an argument that's been done
to death is too much humor for John (JTEM) and his ilk.
Have you read the provisions of the National Reich Church?
How do you reconcile Hitlers alleged Christianity with those
provisions? If you can please do so since I would prever to
call Hitler a Christian with a clear conscience.
What does this have to do with Joan of Arc?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Withdrawn: (Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolutionvs.IntelligentDesign)) |
30 Jun 2005 08:17:56 PM |
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DanielSan wrote:
jfacts@earthlink.net wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:36:15 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
*shrug* Okay, I withdraw it.
Thanks anyway, DS. I guess poking fun at an argument that's been done
to death is too much humor for John (JTEM) and his ilk.
Have you read the provisions of the National Reich Church?
How do you reconcile Hitlers alleged Christianity with those
provisions? If you can please do so since I would prever to
call Hitler a Christian with a clear conscience.
What does this have to do with Joan of Arc?
Hahahahahahaha! Good one.
H
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
30 Jun 2005 09:37:34 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
Graciously understated. 8
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| User: "maf 1029" |
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| Title: Re: WITHDRAWN aqotm nomination |
30 Jun 2005 02:06:13 PM |
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On 30 Jun 2005 07:37:34 -0700, wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Seems a bit of a strawman argument.
Graciously understated. 8
And very troll... oops, droll of you.
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| User: "maf 1029" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
30 Jun 2005 01:50:16 AM |
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:52:00 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "contrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Catholicism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
Side note: I'm aa #1954, just for the record.
maf and dog, aa #1954
EAC Cruise Director and Lounge Pianist, Respectively
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
29 Jun 2005 07:20:05 PM |
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:52:00 GMT, in talk.origins , DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> in <kCFwe.11527$gm6.7770@trnddc05> wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "contrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Catholicism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
First I heard that they ordered that Joan be raped. Does anyone other
than Maff have support for this claim?
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
29 Jun 2005 08:10:40 PM |
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Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:nke6c1dj5fnjrjgfgdvvnqckpotl8p0j5a@4ax.com:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:52:00 GMT, in talk.origins , DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> in <kCFwe.11527$gm6.7770@trnddc05> wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "contrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Catholicism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
First I heard that they ordered that Joan be raped. Does anyone other
than Maff have support for this claim?
I understood that she was afraid of being raped, so she refused to
remover her armor or clothing.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
"Some people will believe anything if you whisper it to them."
* Louis Nizer
(02/06/1911 - 11/10/1994)
English-US lawyer
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
29 Jun 2005 08:33:04 PM |
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Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:nke6c1dj5fnjrjgfgdvvnqckpotl8p0j5a@4ax.com:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:52:00 GMT, in talk.origins , DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> in <kCFwe.11527$gm6.7770@trnddc05> wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "contrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Catholicism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
First I heard that they ordered that Joan be raped. Does anyone other
than Maff have support for this claim?
I understood that she was afraid of being raped, so she refused to
remover her armor or clothing.
Yes but what were the orders in question? are there any documents or
personal writings?
josephus
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
29 Jun 2005 09:33:54 PM |
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josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:kZHwe.11203$hK3.472@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
[snip]
Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
in news:nke6c1dj5fnjrjgfgdvvnqckpotl8p0j5a@4ax.com:
First I heard that they ordered that Joan be raped. Does anyone other
than Maff have support for this claim?
I understood that she was afraid of being raped, so she refused to
remover her armor or clothing.
Yes but what were the orders in question? are there any documents or
personal writings?
I could make up an answer for you, but then I'd have to become a
Christian and a Republican!
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
"Some people will believe anything if you whisper it to them."
* Louis Nizer
(02/06/1911 - 11/10/1994)
English-US lawyer
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
29 Jun 2005 08:27:47 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:52:00 GMT, in talk.origins , DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> in <kCFwe.11527$gm6.7770@trnddc05> wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "contrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Catholicism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
First I heard that they ordered that Joan be raped. Does anyone other
than Maff have support for this claim?
Well, the Bishop of Rouen didn't "order" the attempted rape (she was
never raped, according to the records of the time), but Joan's fear was
that if she did remove her "male" clothing that the guards of the jail
would try to rape her.
According to Earl Richard:
"[S]he said that she didn't dare give up her hosen, nor to keep them but
firmly tied, because the Bishop and Earl well knew that her guards had
tried to rape her several times; and once when she cried out, the Earl
himself came to her aid in response to her cries, and if he hadn't
arrived, the guards would have raped her..." (Quicherat, Vol III, pp.
147 - 148; DuParc, Vol I, p. 426; Oursel, p. 316).
From Friar Martin Ladvenu:
"I heard from Joan that a great English lord entered her prison and
tried to violate her by force. And she told me that this was the reason
why she resumed male clothing after the first sentence." (Quicherat, Vol
III, p. 168; DuParc, Vol I, p. 442; Vol IV, p. 122; Oursel, p. 327;
Pernoud, p. 210).
From Pierre Cusquel:
"[P]eople said that there was no other cause for her condemnation except
the resumption of male clothing, and that she had not, and was not,
wearing male clothing except in order to avoid giving herself to the
soldiers whom she was with; and I asked her once in prison why she wore
male clothes; she replied the same." (Quicherat, Vol II, pp. 306 - 307;
DuParc, Vol I, p. 188; Oursel, p. 161; Pernoud, p. 210).
From Friar Isambart de la Pierre:
"... after her abjuration she put on female clothing, and asked to be
brought to the prisons of the Church; which they didn't allow. In fact,
as I heard from Joan herself, someone of great authority tried to rape
her; as a result of which, in order to be better able to prevent such
things, she said she resumed male clothing, which had been deliberately
left near her in prison. Similarly, after she resumed this clothing, I
saw and heard the aforesaid Bishop, along with other Englishmen,
exulting and saying openly to everyone, to Lord Warwick and others: 'It
is done!' " (Quicherat, Vol II, p. 305; DuParc, Vol I, pp. 186 - 187;
Vol III, p. 176; Oursel, p. 160).
More depositions here:
http://archive.joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_male_clothing.html
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination (Was: Re: Commentary: Evolution vs. IntelligentDesign) |
29 Jun 2005 10:42:18 PM |
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:27:47 GMT, in talk.origins , DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> in <nUHwe.6537$Ku6.1224@trnddc04> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:52:00 GMT, in talk.origins , DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> in <kCFwe.11527$gm6.7770@trnddc05> wrote:
maf 1029 wrote:
On 29 Jun 2005 03:39:23 -0700, wrote:
Here you assume that
questioning "Hitler was a Christian" is "contrary to logic
and evidence" without ever seeing what the argument against
is.
Pro: Hitler was a Christian because he was baptized, communioned, and
confirmed as a Roman Catholic in a small church in Graz, Austria.
Roman Catholicism is a flavor of Christianity. He claimed to be an
agent of God in his own autobiography. The Catholic church never
kicked him out or denounced him.
Con: "Nuh-uhn, Hitler wasn't a true Christian <begin bagpipe music>
because he killed people and was a bad man."
Refutation: Plenty of Christians, such as the Bishop of Rouen, killed
people and were bad men.
Idiot response: Who?
Thinking person response: The Bishop of Rouen, France. He was the guy
who ordered the torture, rape, and execution of Joan of Arc. Please
learn even a bit of the history of your cult before you embarrass
yourself further. Thank you.
This entire post is brilliant! Seconds?
First I heard that they ordered that Joan be raped. Does anyone other
than Maff have support for this claim?
Well, the Bishop of Rouen didn't "order" the attempted rape (she was
never raped, according to the records of the time), but Joan's fear was
that if she did remove her "male" clothing that the guards of the jail
would try to rape her.
Well, when voting, you might want to consider whether or not you want
to congratulate someone who makes things up.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
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