| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
13 Sep 2005 08:29:45 PM |
| Object: |
Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8683
It is now a quarter century since the torch of resistance to Communism
was first lit. In August 1980, striking Polish shipyard workers of the
Solidarity Trade Union opposed the state, demanded freedom, and kicked
off widespread popular revolt. Cascading revolutions in Eastern and
Central Europe followed in 1989 and culminated in the ultimate collapse
of the Soviet Union in 1991. The anniversary of Solidarity's formation
-- the first independent trade union behind the Iron Curtain -- is
being celebrated in Poland this week.
Yet today, many former Communists, responsible for gross acts of
injustice and oppression, refuse to acknowledge their pasts and
continue to escape proper judgment. This is particularly true in
Eastern Europe but the denial extends far wider.
The examples abound. Just two weeks ago a 51-year-old female judge,
Jitka Formankova of the Czech Republic, was promoted to one of the top
judicial posts in her country. In 1980 Formankova, a paragon of
Communist legal thinking in the former Czechoslovakia, sentenced a
restaurant manager, Jan Cermak, to ten months in prison for "political
slander and hooliganism" after he had ejected a group of local
Communist officials from his establishment in the town of Plzen,
Western Bohemia. He had had the temerity to call their ideas "Communist
hogwash." For this "offense" Cermak lost not only liberty and job but
also eventually even his family. A campaign of hate followed from
former friends and neighbors, his daughter was ostracized at school and
eventually his wife divorced him. With his "future" taken from him,
Cermak died in 1987.
One might think that the good judge, whose appointment was confirmed on
August 4th by the Czech Senate, might display a hint of remorse or
contrition for acts such as these. Not a bit of it: she admits only to
being "young and foolish," as it was all 25 years ago. The case is now
promoting much debate in the Czech Republic as to whether past actions
like these are relevant today and whether there can be a statute of
limitations on the actions of former Communist officials. Public
opinion is split as to whether a sufficient "purge" of former
Communists took place in the years following the country's Velvet
Revolution of 1989.
But unapologetic former Communists are not confined to the Czech
Republic.
Russia's President Vladimir Putin, failed this April to apologize for
Soviet actions in Eastern Europe since 1945 and called the Soviet
Union's collapse a "catastrophe." One month later at the 60th
anniversary celebrations in Moscow marking the end of the Second World
War in Europe, Putin shrugged off criticism of Stalin's repression of
Poland and the Baltic States. He also refused to acknowledge Poland's
record as one of the Allied victors over fascism.
In Britain this past June, the press announced the death of 93-year-old
Melita Norwood (KGB codename Hola), a spy for Moscow since the 1930s.
This avowed Communist betrayed her country by passing secret nuclear
weapons files to the Soviets, yet the media either ignored her death or
treated her life as the curious tale of a harmless old lady. Norwood
even said recently that "communism was a good experiment... I would do
it all again." In London, USSR t-shirts and hats with the hammer and
sickle remain commonplace as if these symbols were in any way different
from the swastika.
In the United States, Hollywood remains fascinated by tales of
"glamorous" Communists. Che Guevara was depicted last year in The
Motorcycle Diaries, billed as describing "a journey Che went on in his
youth that showed him his life's calling." Steven Spielberg, after a
visit to Cuba, was reported as saying that "the best seven hours I ever
spent were actually with Fidel (Castro)."
At the same time, myopia toward Communist crimes -- perhaps as 100
million killed according to the respected Black Book of Communism --
extends further afield. The EU and United States regularly turn a blind
eye to the internal repressions in China, whose Laogai (Gulag) system
remains notorious.
Unlike Germany, which has taken on the burden of its Nazi and Stasi
pasts, seeking to educate Germans about their horrid history, the
countries of the former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact seem remarkably
reluctant to follow suit. Rather like Japan, whose wartime role has
also come under scrutiny once more following the anniversary of her
defeat by atomic weapons in August 1945, avoidance, denial, and evasion
remain the order of the day. The media contributes by paying a highly
disproportionate amount of attention each year to the atomic bombings
as compared to the Bataan death march and other such evils.
How to explain such hypocrisy? Perhaps it is one of the better examples
of "double think" -- the term invented by George Orwell in 1984 to
describe the capacity to hold two completely contradictory beliefs
simultaneously, and accept both of them, while accepting an untenable
lie. This was surely practiced among the millions behind the Iron
Curtain who faced a system that murdered and imprisoned many. A
balanced view of Eastern European Communism must surely accept that
many who passively accepted the system were not, and are still not,
themselves criminals.
And there is evidence that not all former Communists are in complete
denial. General Jaruzelski of Poland, for instance, once the instigator
of martial law, has declared considerable remorse over the years and on
August 22 apologized for the actions of Polish troops who participated
in crushing the Prague Spring revolutions of 1968 under the Warsaw
Pact. But he is a figure of rare contrition.
As they review the events of 25 years ago this week, the peoples of
Eastern Europe will find that the current denial will not work longer
term. Even as they are tantalized by the EU's expansion eastwards and
the material improvements it promises, memories of what happened must
not be denied, buried, or obfuscated. The truth is too terrible. Former
and current fellow-travelers both East and West may still deny the
reality but Communism was not a "noble experiment" -- it was an atheist
butchers' yard under whom millions died. Placing Communism in its
proper context, restating its inhumanity to new generations, warning
the curious, and declaring its ideological bankruptcy must prevail.
Ronan Thomas is a British journalist recently on assignment in Poland.
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 01:16:13 AM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126661385.085681.101610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
communism is a political ideology, it's like saying capitalism is forgiven
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 04:06:33 AM |
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kathryn wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126661385.085681.101610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
communism is a political ideology, it's like saying capitalism is forgiven
Capitalism can never be forgiven. Nor can Communism.
TCross
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 06:26:03 AM |
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On 14 Sep 2005 02:06:33 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
kathryn wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126661385.085681.101610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
communism is a political ideology, it's like saying capitalism is forgiven
Capitalism can never be forgiven. Nor can Communism.
TCross
Well, you can not forgive something, but you don't talk for anyone
else and they are ideas, not people. So I'm sure neither cares.
Neither of those two ideas advocate abuse, What's your problem?
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 05:01:01 PM |
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Kate wrote:
On 14 Sep 2005 02:06:33 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
kathryn wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126661385.085681.101610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
communism is a political ideology, it's like saying capitalism is forgiven
Capitalism can never be forgiven. Nor can Communism.
TCross
Well, you can not forgive something, but you don't talk for anyone
else and they are ideas, not people. So I'm sure neither cares.
Neither of those two ideas advocate abuse, What's your problem?
I cannot even begin to address ignorance so profound.
TCross
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
16 Sep 2005 11:56:22 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126731896.484537.283130@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kate wrote:
On 14 Sep 2005 02:06:33 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
kathryn wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126661385.085681.101610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
communism is a political ideology, it's like saying capitalism is
forgiven
Capitalism can never be forgiven. Nor can Communism.
TCross
Well, you can not forgive something, but you don't talk for anyone
else and they are ideas, not people. So I'm sure neither cares.
Neither of those two ideas advocate abuse, What's your problem?
I cannot even begin to address ignorance so profound.
TCross
This form of copping out is unforgivable.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
18 Sep 2005 10:24:03 AM |
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:56:22 -0400, "Jack" <jklewis@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126731896.484537.283130@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kate wrote:
On 14 Sep 2005 02:06:33 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
kathryn wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126661385.085681.101610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
communism is a political ideology, it's like saying capitalism is
forgiven
Capitalism can never be forgiven. Nor can Communism.
TCross
Well, you can not forgive something, but you don't talk for anyone
else and they are ideas, not people. So I'm sure neither cares.
Neither of those two ideas advocate abuse, What's your problem?
I cannot even begin to address ignorance so profound.
TCross
This form of copping out is unforgivable.
(snicker) - did he say that?
Apparently he doesn't have a clue what the terms mean. Needs a
dictionary I guess. I wonder if he knows you can find them online.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 06:44:59 AM |
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On 14 Sep 2005 06:26:03 -0500, (Kate ) drained his
beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed
the following
On 14 Sep 2005 02:06:33 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
kathryn wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1126661385.085681.101610@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
communism is a political ideology, it's like saying capitalism is forgiven
Capitalism can never be forgiven. Nor can Communism.
TCross
Well, you can not forgive something, but you don't talk for anyone
else and they are ideas, not people. So I'm sure neither cares.
Neither of those two ideas advocate abuse, What's your problem?
Terry's problems are legion.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "axolotl" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 12:23:50 AM |
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OOOH! Putin won't apologize for ***** that happened before he was born.
Expecting nations to apologize is just one of hundreds of retarded new
notions that have popped up in the modern American mind.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "Robi" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
16 Sep 2005 09:18:21 AM |
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(axolotl) wrote:
OOOH! Putin won't apologize for ***** that happened before he was born.
Expecting nations to apologize is just one of hundreds of retarded new
notions that have popped up in the modern American mind.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
The UK has never apologised to India for atrocities committed during
the Empire for example.
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| User: "Jim Austin" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
18 Sep 2005 10:53:06 AM |
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(axolotl) wrote:
OOOH! Putin won't apologize for ***** that happened before he was born.
Expecting nations to apologize is just one of hundreds of retarded new
notions that have popped up in the modern American mind.
Must come from the liberal notion that America should apologize to the
rest of the world for its existance.
<Snip> The rest.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
18 Sep 2005 05:16:36 PM |
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Jim Austin wrote:
(axolotl) wrote:
OOOH! Putin won't apologize for ***** that happened before he was born.
Expecting nations to apologize is just one of hundreds of retarded new
notions that have popped up in the modern American mind.
Must come from the liberal notion that America should apologize to the
rest of the world for its existance.
Nah, that's not a liberal notion. Try again?
<Snip> The rest.
"...because I can't argue or refute it."
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth *
* and nothing but the truth; so help me me." *
* --George Burns as God *
****************************************************
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| User: "Jim Austin" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
18 Sep 2005 07:23:31 PM |
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DanielSan wrote:
Jim Austin wrote:
(axolotl) wrote:
OOOH! Putin won't apologize for ***** that happened before he was born.
Expecting nations to apologize is just one of hundreds of retarded new
notions that have popped up in the modern American mind.
Must come from the liberal notion that America should apologize to the
rest of the world for its existance.
Nah, that's not a liberal notion. Try again?
It's stuff I keep hearing from liberals.
<Snip> The rest.
"...because I can't argue or refute it."
Refute what? It was just bottom margin stuff.
<Snip> More bottom margin stuff.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
18 Sep 2005 08:41:57 PM |
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Jim Austin wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
Jim Austin wrote:
(axolotl) wrote:
OOOH! Putin won't apologize for ***** that happened before he was born.
Expecting nations to apologize is just one of hundreds of retarded new
notions that have popped up in the modern American mind.
Must come from the liberal notion that America should apologize to the
rest of the world for its existance.
Nah, that's not a liberal notion. Try again?
It's stuff I keep hearing from liberals.
Cite?
<Snip> The rest.
"...because I can't argue or refute it."
Refute what? It was just bottom margin stuff.
<Snip> More bottom margin stuff.
Then say "<snip> The Footer."
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth *
* and nothing but the truth; so help me me." *
* --George Burns as God *
****************************************************
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
13 Sep 2005 10:16:50 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8683
The is a simple reason for that. Communism is dead. It is
true that not all the old communists are dead, and maybe Ronan
Thomas would like to personally torture or kill them, but
communism as a political movement is very thoroughly dead, and
the forgetfulness about communists is simply a refusal to take
them seriously. It is only the right wingers who really miss
them. That is what the article is about.
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 10:21:28 AM |
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writes:
words of truth wrote:
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
The is a simple reason for that. Communism is dead.
That doesn't explain why wearing a swastika is beyond the pale,
but wearing a t-shirt with the Hammer & Sickle, or a picture of Che, is
"cool."
"Hi, I'm being ironic in my t-shirt commemmorating the deaths of
20 million people. Not because they were Jewish or Gypsys or gay, but
just because they were in Stalin's way." What nauseating crap.
Elf
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| User: "WCB" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 02:42:20 PM |
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Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
animaminima@yahoo.com writes:
words of truth wrote:
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
The is a simple reason for that. Communism is dead.
That doesn't explain why wearing a swastika is beyond the pale,
but wearing a t-shirt with the Hammer & Sickle, or a picture of Che, is
"cool."
I have never seen a hammer or sickle on a T-shirt nor Che Guevera.
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap. I have seen a few skinheads with swastikas
in the past tattooed on their ugly bodies. Swastikas are beyond the pale
for obvious reasons. The supreme symbol of hate and genocide.
Part of the reason Che gets some respect was if he was a goofball,
the people he was fighting were easily as bad as anybody you care
to name.
Communism is dead, Nazism, the hate that is Nazism, still
pops up now and then. Its a problem in Europe with stupid
skinhead types to this day.
Bizarrely, Stalin is popular in Russia today, if he was
alive and ran for Premiere of Russia, he'd have a chance to win.
Stupidity is not only in America with right wingers willing to kiss Bush's
nasty *****.
Communism isn't a big problem here because it is failed, no threat, and
never really killed many Americans or their families. it is
about like the Mongols or Persians, far away and hardly real.
Its about as relevant as King George III to today's average American.
And as Eldridge Cleaver once said, "No North Vietnamese
ever called me *****."
Many American families had members in old Europe killed by
Nazis, many here in America have problems with right wingers, klan
type attitudes and racism, blacks, Jews, Hispanics. Communism
simply doesn't have that going against it.
"Hi, I'm being ironic in my t-shirt commemmorating the deaths of
20 million people. Not because they were Jewish or Gypsys or gay, but
just because they were in Stalin's way." What nauseating crap.
Elf
--
"Today the official spokesman for the Foxes
agreed an investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed."
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 02:45:32 PM |
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WCB wrote:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
animaminima@yahoo.com writes:
words of truth wrote:
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
The is a simple reason for that. Communism is dead.
That doesn't explain why wearing a swastika is beyond the pale,
but wearing a t-shirt with the Hammer & Sickle, or a picture of Che, is
"cool."
I have never seen a hammer or sickle on a T-shirt nor Che Guevera.
You are blind, then?
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap.
Confederate flags donot symbolize pro-slavery. They symbolize more
than anything else the Federation of States before it was an Empire.
I have seen a few skinheads with swastikas
in the past tattooed on their ugly bodies. Swastikas are beyond the pale
for obvious reasons. The supreme symbol of hate and genocide.
The Communists spilled more blood by multiples. The Communists were
the all-time greatest haters in all history.
Are you really so blind.
Part of the reason Che gets some respect was if he was a goofball,
the people he was fighting were easily as bad as anybody you care
to name.
Communism is dead,
You have been told different by an authoritative source in this thread.
You must be really blind. North Vietnam, China, Cuba, North Korea ...
yeah, real dead.
Nazism, the hate that is Nazism, still
pops up now and then.
The last Nazi government was when?
Its a problem in Europe with stupid
skinhead types to this day.
The last time they formed a govenment was when?
Bizarrely, Stalin is popular in Russia today, if he was
alive and ran for Premiere of Russia, he'd have a chance to win.
But "Communism is dead." The fatality seems to be between your ears.
Stupidity is not only in America with right wingers willing to kiss Bush's
nasty *****.
Communism isn't a big problem here because it is failed, no threat, and
never really killed many Americans or their families.
What then of the Vietnam deaths? Communism just "sort of" killed them?
Or were those casualties not Americans?
There is something very rotten in a mind that computes the value of
death based upon the nationality of the corpse. Very rotten.
it is
about like the Mongols or Persians, far away and hardly real.
To the average victim of Alzheimer's, you are possibly correct.
Its about as relevant as King George III to today's average American.
1989 is like 1776?
And as Eldridge Cleaver once said, "No North Vietnamese
ever called me *****."
Nikita Kruschov said, "We will bury you."
Many American families had members in old Europe killed by
Nazis, many here in America have problems with right wingers, klan
type attitudes and racism, blacks, Jews, Hispanics. Communism
simply doesn't have that going against it.
You are such a fool. 35 million Ukrainians died under Stalin. Another
8 million Cambodians died under Pol Pot.
"Hi, I'm being ironic in my t-shirt commemmorating the deaths of
20 million people. Not because they were Jewish or Gypsys or gay, but
just because they were in Stalin's way." What nauseating crap.
It should make you sick.
TCross
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 04:43:36 PM |
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On 14 Sep 2005 12:45:32 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
You have been told different by an authoritative source in this thread.
You must be really blind. North Vietnam, China, Cuba, North Korea ...
yeah, real dead.
Vietnam (North Vietnam ceased existing when Saigon fell in 1975, its
been one country since then) is a socialist state at best. Hell, go
to Hanoi and the biggest employers are Nike and Coca-Cola! Billboards
everywhere!
Same thing with China. They call themselves communist but capitalism
is making steady inroads. Hell, Norinco, one of China's success
stories of capitalist growth, is mostly owned by the People's
Liberation Army!
Cuba is a dictatorship. I don't see any collective action there.
The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is just weird. Almost
a monarchy at this point. But not at all communist. A centralized
police state answering to a dictator with absolute executive,
legislative, and juducial powers.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "WCB" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
15 Sep 2005 08:18:02 AM |
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Douglas Berry wrote:
On 14 Sep 2005 12:45:32 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
You have been told different by an authoritative source in this thread.
You must be really blind. North Vietnam, China, Cuba, North Korea ...
yeah, real dead.
Vietnam (North Vietnam ceased existing when Saigon fell in 1975, its
been one country since then) is a socialist state at best. Hell, go
to Hanoi and the biggest employers are Nike and Coca-Cola! Billboards
everywhere!
Same thing with China. They call themselves communist but capitalism
is making steady inroads. Hell, Norinco, one of China's success
stories of capitalist growth, is mostly owned by the People's
Liberation Army!
Cuba is a dictatorship. I don't see any collective action there.
The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is just weird. Almost
a monarchy at this point. But not at all communist. A centralized
police state answering to a dictator with absolute executive,
legislative, and juducial powers.
Marxist collectivism ala Stalin, never works. It sure isn't in NK.
All such states that have existed have done so because they were
dictatorships propped up by military police states.
That is the ONLY way such a collectivist state has ever existed.
Many very poor nations have in this century gone through
some species of socialist state with heavy government
intervention to get a state going from nothing. Some, such
as Cuba get sidetracked by dictators like Castro and harassment
by the US in Cuba's case. The rest move towards a controlled capitolism
such as we see now in China, of in much of East Europe.
Some nations like Sweden and Norway chose a more 'socialist'
state than others such America. It works. Looking at poverty
invested parasite states like Mississippi or Alabama show us
states that are still socialistic in form, Mississippi is being subsidized
it gets $1.89 dollars in subsidies from the Federal government for
every $1 in tax money it sends to the Federal goverment.
If it was not for that subsidy, Mississippi would be as failed a
state as North Korea, Vietnam, or old Soviet Russia.
--
"Today the official spokesman for the Foxes
agreed an investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed."
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 08:06:04 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:43:36 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On 14 Sep 2005 12:45:32 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
You have been told different by an authoritative source in this thread.
You must be really blind. North Vietnam, China, Cuba, North Korea ...
yeah, real dead.
Vietnam (North Vietnam ceased existing when Saigon fell in 1975, its
been one country since then) is a socialist state at best. Hell, go
to Hanoi and the biggest employers are Nike and Coca-Cola! Billboards
everywhere!
Same thing with China. They call themselves communist but capitalism
is making steady inroads. Hell, Norinco, one of China's success
stories of capitalist growth, is mostly owned by the People's
Liberation Army!
Cuba is a dictatorship. I don't see any collective action there.
The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is just weird. Almost
a monarchy at this point. But not at all communist. A centralized
police state answering to a dictator with absolute executive,
legislative, and juducial powers.
LOL, so are all the religious communes in Israel horrible and
murderous?
Communism is no more murderous than democracy.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 09:14:14 PM |
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Kate wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:43:36 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On 14 Sep 2005 12:45:32 -0700, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
You have been told different by an authoritative source in this thread.
You must be really blind. North Vietnam, China, Cuba, North Korea ...
yeah, real dead.
Vietnam (North Vietnam ceased existing when Saigon fell in 1975, its
been one country since then) is a socialist state at best. Hell, go
to Hanoi and the biggest employers are Nike and Coca-Cola! Billboards
everywhere!
Same thing with China. They call themselves communist but capitalism
is making steady inroads. Hell, Norinco, one of China's success
stories of capitalist growth, is mostly owned by the People's
Liberation Army!
Cuba is a dictatorship. I don't see any collective action there.
The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is just weird. Almost
a monarchy at this point. But not at all communist. A centralized
police state answering to a dictator with absolute executive,
legislative, and juducial powers.
LOL, so are all the religious communes in Israel horrible and
murderous?
Communism is no more murderous than democracy.
Economic communism is the order of the American family - every other
family in the world. Economic communism cannot be contrasted with
democracy - communism and democracy can coexist or not, like long hair
and high heels. Israeli communism is somewhat democratic.
Marxist Lenninist Communism was NOT just an economic theory, though
that is how it was sold. Every ML Communist government has been an
absolute dictatorship, and almost always brutal. ML Communism is a
political movement, and it is very much to be contrasted with
Democracy.
ML Communism in Soviet Russia was not even consistent with economic
communism. Soviet Communism included an economically and politically
privileged elite called the "Politburo" - and it was not communism.
That aspect of Communism still exists in China, though it has been
toned down. Russia still has the personnel of the old Soviet - the
torturers, the murderers, the blackmailers, and the old KGB that no
doubt yearns for the old days. And Russia still has nuclear weapons.
ML Communism has had a set-back in the death of the Soviet, but it is
not dead.
TCross
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
15 Sep 2005 10:58:45 PM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
WCB wrote:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap.
Confederate flags donot symbolize pro-slavery. They symbolize more
than anything else the Federation of States before it was an Empire.
Actually, I think most often they symbolize either (1)
racism of the Ku Klux Klan variety; or (2) a vague "I'm a
rebel" statement.
You are such a fool. 35 million Ukrainians died under Stalin. Another
8 million Cambodians died under Pol Pot.
I've seen lots of bloated numbers for Communist killings,
but these must take the cake. They are several times the
highest real estimates. The number for Cambodia would have
Pol Pot killing the entire population. (The real numbers are
high enough.)
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
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| User: "WCB" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
16 Sep 2005 07:58:08 AM |
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Dan Clore wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
WCB wrote:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap.
Confederate flags donot symbolize pro-slavery. They symbolize more
than anything else the Federation of States before it was an Empire.
Actually, I think most often they symbolize either (1)
racism of the Ku Klux Klan variety; or (2) a vague "I'm a
rebel" statement.
Rank racism is a large part of it.
You are such a fool. 35 million Ukrainians died under Stalin. Another
8 million Cambodians died under Pol Pot.
Pop Po sure was bad, wasn't he? Then, why did Reagan and Bush and
the GOP support Pol Pot for ten long bloody years? Why did Reagan
insist of seating PolPots Khmer Rouge cadres as the officual UN delegation
from Cambodia? Why did Reagan and the GOP support Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge
as the offficial "government of note" of Canbodia? Why did Reagan have the
CIA pour aid to Pol Pot and ignore China's rearming of the Khmer Rouge.
Yes, Pol Pot was a real evil man. So if teh GOP and GOP voters supported
Pol Pot for ten bloody years, what does that make all those GOP voting,
Reagan, Bush supporting assholes?
And isn't it amazing that this went on for a decade and not a single, not
one brain damaged single far right net pest even remembers their hero,
Saint Reagan, supported Pol Pot most whole heartedly for a decade and made
that evil act kosher for a generation of far right morons?
Do you see why I don't likeright wingers and consider them, abhorrently
ammoral and stupid?
I've seen lots of bloated numbers for Communist killings,
but these must take the cake. They are several times the
highest real estimates. The number for Cambodia would have
Pol Pot killing the entire population. (The real numbers are
high enough.)
Soviet Russia did see many deaths in the 20's to 30's.
Mush of it was the result of a massive crop failure,
but was intensified by a purposeful Stalinist campaign
to destroy peasants resisting collectivization.
About 7 millions died in the Ukraine. Many would have
died without Stalin, but Stalin's actions easily doubled
or tripled the death toll. There were other deaths.
Almost any charge could get one sent to the gulags
where millions died.
On the other hand, since there was little press in Russia
as these things happened, very little was really known
about the extent of these things until later after they happened.
To this day, records are hard to come by.
But then this has little to do with America. Or slavery,
or the decade of Jim Crow that followed. The evils of that
era are just as bad as Stalin's paranoid dystopia, if not
as outright murderous. Lynchings and wholesale stripping
of rights from Americans supported by state governments
and the Federal government who made little effort to do
anything about it.
The Confederate battle flag was a symbol of defiance to the
disassembling of Jim Crow and segregation and its evils.
Look to the GOP elephant as a symbol of support for Pol
Pot by American conservatives.
--
"Today the official spokesman for the Foxes
agreed an investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed."
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
15 Sep 2005 11:13:45 PM |
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Dan Clore wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
WCB wrote:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap.
Confederate flags donot symbolize pro-slavery. They symbolize more
than anything else the Federation of States before it was an Empire.
Actually, I think most often they symbolize either (1)
racism of the Ku Klux Klan variety; or (2) a vague "I'm a
rebel" statement.
Then you have never lived in the South and you do not understand. The
South had a gentility that the North could never match. That
difference can be readily understood in the attitude of the respective
generals, Lee and Grant.
Lee would never hurt a civilian. There are posters all over the south
of quotes by Lee defining the proper conduct of a gentleman, and the
proper way for the strong to treat the weak, or the powerful the
powerless.
Grant, on the other hand, was a monster. He deliberately made war on
civilians, burning cities, burning farms, and even burning the slave
quarters to "free" them in the middle of winter and drive them into the
cities.
You are such a fool. 35 million Ukrainians died under Stalin. Another
8 million Cambodians died under Pol Pot.
I've seen lots of bloated numbers for Communist killings,
but these must take the cake. They are several times the
highest real estimates. The number for Cambodia would have
Pol Pot killing the entire population. (The real numbers are
high enough.)
Pol Pot came astonishingly close to depopulating Cambodia. Some say
the Khymer Rouge took more than half the population.
Those numbers I quote come from the first reports from the Red Cross.
And we must remember, the US protected Pol Pot until his death in the
1990s. Your official government sources might be interested in
minimizing the count.
TCross
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
15 Sep 2005 11:39:52 PM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Dan Clore wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
WCB wrote:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap.
Confederate flags donot symbolize pro-slavery. They symbolize more
than anything else the Federation of States before it was an Empire.
Actually, I think most often they symbolize either (1)
racism of the Ku Klux Klan variety; or (2) a vague "I'm a
rebel" statement.
Then you have never lived in the South and you do not understand. The
South had a gentility that the North could never match.
Lee would never hurt a civilian.
Give us a break. Lee and the Confederates seceded and waged
a war in order to keep slavery, a rather brutal institution.
You are such a fool. 35 million Ukrainians died under Stalin. Another
8 million Cambodians died under Pol Pot.
I've seen lots of bloated numbers for Communist killings,
but these must take the cake. They are several times the
highest real estimates. The number for Cambodia would have
Pol Pot killing the entire population. (The real numbers are
high enough.)
Pol Pot came astonishingly close to depopulating Cambodia. Some say
the Khymer Rouge took more than half the population.
Who? I've reviewed the literature on the subject and never
seen a real estimate higher than a fifth or so. (And it's
spelt "Khmer".)
Those numbers I quote come from the first reports from the Red Cross.
BS.
And we must remember, the US protected Pol Pot until his death in the
1990s.
Reagan supported Pol Pot.
Your official government sources might be interested in
minimizing the count.
What official government sources?
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
15 Sep 2005 11:59:13 PM |
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Dan Clore wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Dan Clore wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
WCB wrote:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap.
Confederate flags donot symbolize pro-slavery. They symbolize more
than anything else the Federation of States before it was an Empire.
Actually, I think most often they symbolize either (1)
racism of the Ku Klux Klan variety; or (2) a vague "I'm a
rebel" statement.
Then you have never lived in the South and you do not understand. The
South had a gentility that the North could never match.
Lee would never hurt a civilian.
Give us a break. Lee and the Confederates seceded and waged
a war in order to keep slavery, a rather brutal institution.
Wrong. The Supreme Court had already ruled in 1857 that slvery was
entirely Constitutional (Dred Scott v. Sanford). The South had nothing
to fear from abolitionists within the federal government.
http://www.pinzler.com/ushistory/dredsupp.html
The War Between the States was about the imperial tarrifs the federal
government was imposing on the southern states, forcing them to buy
from the North rather than trading directly with Europe.
Contrary to propaganda, Abraham Lincoln would have let the South keep
the slaves.
You are such a fool. 35 million Ukrainians died under Stalin. Another
8 million Cambodians died under Pol Pot.
I've seen lots of bloated numbers for Communist killings,
but these must take the cake. They are several times the
highest real estimates. The number for Cambodia would have
Pol Pot killing the entire population. (The real numbers are
high enough.)
Pol Pot came astonishingly close to depopulating Cambodia. Some say
the Khymer Rouge took more than half the population.
Who? I've reviewed the literature on the subject and never
seen a real estimate higher than a fifth or so.
Numbers vary widely. I give you the number that appeared in the first
reports by the red Cross published in the New Yorker Magazine in 1979.
(And it's
spelt "Khmer".)
By some. Not by all. http://www.travelmedia.com/mekong/chist.html
Those numbers I quote come from the first reports from the Red Cross.
BS.
You won't get one here. Try you local diploma mill.
And we must remember, the US protected Pol Pot until his death in the
1990s.
Reagan supported Pol Pot.
Yes, along with VP Bush and the stiffs and suits in the State
Department.
Your official government sources might be interested in
minimizing the count.
What official government sources?
The US State Department. And you never listen to NPR?
TCross
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
16 Sep 2005 06:29:59 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Dan Clore wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Dan Clore wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
WCB wrote:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
I have seen more 'n a few confederate battle flags, pro slavery,
pro-segregation crap.
Confederate flags donot symbolize pro-slavery. They symbolize more
than anything else the Federation of States before it was an Empire.
Actually, I think most often they symbolize either (1)
racism of the Ku Klux Klan variety; or (2) a vague "I'm a
rebel" statement.
Then you have never lived in the South and you do not understand. The
South had a gentility that the North could never match.
Lee would never hurt a civilian.
Give us a break. Lee and the Confederates seceded and waged
a war in order to keep slavery, a rather brutal institution.
Wrong. The Supreme Court had already ruled in 1857 that slvery was
entirely Constitutional (Dred Scott v. Sanford). The South had nothing
to fear from abolitionists within the federal government.
http://www.pinzler.com/ushistory/dredsupp.html
The War Between the States was about the imperial tarrifs the federal
government was imposing on the southern states, forcing them to buy
from the North rather than trading directly with Europe.
Contrary to propaganda, Abraham Lincoln would have let the South keep
the slaves.
Four of the seceding states published declarations
explaining their reasons for secession. They only list one:
to keep slavery.
http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/DocsSecessionGA.htm
http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/DocsSecessSC.htm
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/mississippi_declaration.asp
http://www.civilwar.com/dectx.htm
http://forums.military.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/972196131/m/7191075
None of these even mention tariffs.
In addition, several of the seceding actually cite the
preservation of slavery as their reason for secession in
their Ordinances of Secession:
http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/ordnces.html
Again, none of them even mention tariffs.
You are such a fool. 35 million Ukrainians died under Stalin. Another
8 million Cambodians died under Pol Pot.
Best estimates of Ukrainians killed: 5-7 million.
I've seen lots of bloated numbers for Communist killings,
but these must take the cake. They are several times the
highest real estimates. The number for Cambodia would have
Pol Pot killing the entire population. (The real numbers are
high enough.)
Pol Pot came astonishingly close to depopulating Cambodia. Some say
the Khymer Rouge took more than half the population.
Who? I've reviewed the literature on the subject and never
seen a real estimate higher than a fifth or so.
Numbers vary widely. I give you the number that appeared in the first
reports by the red Cross published in the New Yorker Magazine in 1979.
You'll have a hard time convincing me that they claimed that
the entire population of Cambodia had died, or even half the
population.
Your official government sources might be interested in
minimizing the count.
What official government sources?
The US State Department. And you never listen to NPR?
No, I don't.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 12:41:39 PM |
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Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
animaminima@yahoo.com writes:
words of truth wrote:
The Iron Fog
Communism continues to enjoy forgiveness and forgetting.
By Ronan Thomas
The is a simple reason for that. Communism is dead.
That doesn't explain why wearing a swastika is beyond the pale,
but wearing a t-shirt with the Hammer & Sickle, or a picture of Che, is
"cool."
Sure it does. Naziism and fascism aren't dead. If you wear a
swastika, it could mean you are a serious nazi. Nobody thinks
someone wearing a hammer and sickle, or a Che picture, is serious.
Well, maybe you do, but most people do not. I see where the
picture of Che has become so commercialized that his family are
going to start capitalist law suits against its use. You are
just going to have to get along without communism. It is dead
and gone, its images are jokes, and all the bad old guys are now
bad new guys eager to get with the capitalist program. Sorry,
but that's the way it is.
What ever happened to that guy who was going to set up a
communism theme park in Lithuania? That could be a remedy for
those who miss the bad old communism so much.
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| User: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 05:45:16 PM |
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wrote:
What ever happened to that guy who was going to set up a
communism theme park in Lithuania? That could be a remedy for
those who miss the bad old communism so much.
He couldn't get permission to move Lenins' tomb, nor Stalins'
remains to the park.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Communism Continues To Enjoy Liberal Forgiveness |
14 Sep 2005 08:50:45 PM |
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Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
animaminima@yahoo.com wrote:
What ever happened to that guy who was going to set up a
communism theme park in Lithuania? That could be a remedy for
those who miss the bad old communism so much.
He couldn't get permission to move Lenins' tomb, nor Stalins'
remains to the park.
What a pity. But it would not be hard to fake them and then
say that they were the real ones, in the style of P. T. Barnum.
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