| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Stephen" |
| Date: |
05 Oct 2006 03:32:05 AM |
| Object: |
Confusion... |
....is all I see around me.
In reading the messages on alt.atheism I like it because it has a
thing right with it. It also has a thing wrong with it.
I wrote an essay a couple of years ago about what you would believe
based on where you were born. They were my own thoughts without
anyone else's input for the education of my distant kids, but I also
posted it on a newspaper's discussion group. Recently, I have Googled
my phrases and I have seen them on websites. I am happy I am not the
only one who is curious and who wants the damaging fire of ignorant
and selfish religions to go out. I am happy that there are so many
others who also see that fire and also want it to go out. My son
asked me at the end of 1999 what I thought the biggest threat would be
in the new century. That was an easy one. I told him the biggest
threat in the next century would be the same as all the previous
centuries have suffered...religion.
You are a victim of where you are born and a victim of the
particular religion that was forced on you by your parents as their
parents did to them, and you can never entirely put that fire out in
yourself even when you see that and try to overcome it. Your love and
trust of your parents at such an early age is the strongest of forces.
The religions know this and use it.
You will still have a vestige of anger at what was done to you that
makes you attack the beliefs of others.
But when you realize what was done to you and when you can see the
world as it really is, you will have a unique view of the world that
those who have not overcome what they were taught cannot ever see.
You will view those who still believe in religions sadly. It is a
lonely view you will have. You will see that everyone around you are
quite blissful as they go around like ants, spouting and spreading
their ignorance in such haste. Heck, it is just what they were taught
to do. It's not their fault. There is a calm bliss and sadness in
seeing the truth. Because you do care about them. But you will still
feel anger and want to fight because of the fire you can never put out
which comes from the effects of what you were taught as a trusting
child and you now know to be wrong.
I may or may not be an atheist. I am probably not by my own
definition. Atheists may or not be atheists. It depends on their
definitions. I just hate that definition part, but I must explore
this also before I die.
I think the classic definition of an atheist is one who does not
believe in God. Whose God?
Is an atheist one who defies the humanized God of local religions
who was forced on him/her in innocent childhood and is angry at the
resultant stunted growth the religions create?
Or is an atheist one who thinks they just sprang up on this planet
as a weed and and will die as such?
I pity the latter. I also have bad news for them. While they pity
themselves as weeds, they are what they are because of what they were
taught as innocent children. It's also not their fault.
I will say this once, and once only: No humanized God created
this universe and this playground for you. Why do you worship such a
locally created God to your detriment? You are not allowed to "fear"
nor "pray" to the same life force of which you are a part. You came
from it, and you will return to it. In between, you should do your
best of making this Garden of Eden the best it can be for you and the
children who follow you and all the equals around you who are sharing
in this Garden.
Grow. Learn. If you can, have fun without hurting others. That
is what this life is for. Grow like weeds, but learn to not be like
weeds.
P.S. I expect a lot of discussion on this one and that is my goal.
Don't expect a response or rebuttal. I said my piece and I am done.
Have fun with it.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Confusion... |
08 Oct 2006 11:33:45 PM |
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On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 23:32:05 -0400, Stephen <tronsj@hotmail.com> wrote
in alt.atheism
...is all I see around me.
In reading the messages on alt.atheism I like it because it has a
thing right with it. It also has a thing wrong with it.
I wrote an essay a couple of years ago about what you would believe
based on where you were born.
Don't forget 'when' you were born.
They were my own thoughts without
anyone else's input for the education of my distant kids, but I also
posted it on a newspaper's discussion group. Recently, I have Googled
my phrases and I have seen them on websites. I am happy I am not the
only one who is curious and who wants the damaging fire of ignorant
and selfish religions to go out. I am happy that there are so many
others who also see that fire and also want it to go out. My son
asked me at the end of 1999 what I thought the biggest threat would be
in the new century. That was an easy one. I told him the biggest
threat in the next century would be the same as all the previous
centuries have suffered...religion.
Superstition is the proper name of religion.
You are a victim of where you are born and a victim of the
particular religion that was forced on you by your parents as their
parents did to them, and you can never entirely put that fire out in
yourself even when you see that and try to overcome it. Your love and
trust of your parents at such an early age is the strongest of forces.
The religions know this and use it.
Yes.
You will still have a vestige of anger at what was done to you
In some and perhaps many cases and for a time.
that makes you attack the beliefs of others.
In some and perhaps many cases and for a time.
But when you realize what was done to you and when you can see the
world as it really is, you will have a unique view of the world that
those who have not overcome what they were taught cannot ever see.
Everyone's view of the world is unique as it is the sum of events and
interchanges which is in constant flux.
You will view those who still believe in religions sadly. It is a
lonely view you will have.
Lonely? Not at all.
You will see that everyone around you are
quite blissful as they go around like ants, spouting and spreading
their ignorance in such haste. Heck, it is just what they were taught
to do. It's not their fault.
Yes, it is. They've always the option to 'change course.' The change
does not have to be a radical one, but the deviation will increase
through time.
There is a calm bliss and sadness in
seeing the truth. Because you do care about them. But you will still
feel anger and want to fight because of the fire you can never put out
which comes from the effects of what you were taught as a trusting
child and you now know to be wrong.
Crap. It comes from the reprecussions from the actions taken by certain
theists.
I may or may not be an atheist. I am probably not by my own
definition. Atheists may or not be atheists. It depends on their
definitions. I just hate that definition part, but I must explore
this also before I die.
Please put down the crack pipe.
I think the classic definition of an atheist is one who does not
believe in God. Whose God?
What's a 'g-o-d?'
[snip insanity]
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Confusion... |
06 Oct 2006 12:08:33 AM |
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Stephen <tronsj@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:t8q8i21jl1543k46lcu507as2gn082vq05@4ax.com:
...is all I see around me.
In reading the messages on alt.atheism I like it because it has a
thing right with it. It also has a thing wrong with it.
I wrote an essay a couple of years ago about what you would believe
based on where you were born. They were my own thoughts without
anyone else's input for the education of my distant kids, but I also
posted it on a newspaper's discussion group. Recently, I have Googled
my phrases and I have seen them on websites. I am happy I am not the
only one who is curious and who wants the damaging fire of ignorant
and selfish religions to go out. I am happy that there are so many
others who also see that fire and also want it to go out. My son
asked me at the end of 1999 what I thought the biggest threat would be
in the new century. That was an easy one. I told him the biggest
threat in the next century would be the same as all the previous
centuries have suffered...religion.
You are a victim of where you are born and a victim of the
particular religion that was forced on you by your parents as their
parents did to them, and you can never entirely put that fire out in
yourself even when you see that and try to overcome it.
False. Many regulars here were raised in religious families but realised
that it was all a house of cards even when they first began to be able to
reason as young children.
Your love and
trust of your parents at such an early age is the strongest of forces.
The religions know this and use it.
What they know and use is that many people are too lazy to reason for
themselves.
You will still have a vestige of anger at what was done to you that
makes you attack the beliefs of others.
Not at all. What makes people angry is theists trying to force their
beliefs onto others, even when they know it is not welcome.
But when you realize what was done to you and when you can see the
world as it really is, you will have a unique view of the world that
those who have not overcome what they were taught cannot ever see.
You will view those who still believe in religions sadly. It is a
lonely view you will have. You will see that everyone around you are
quite blissful as they go around like ants, spouting and spreading
their ignorance in such haste.
I don't care what they believe as long as they keep it to themselves.
Heck, it is just what they were taught
to do. It's not their fault. There is a calm bliss and sadness in
seeing the truth. Because you do care about them. But you will still
feel anger and want to fight because of the fire you can never put out
which comes from the effects of what you were taught as a trusting
child and you now know to be wrong.
Nope. We feel anger when the idiots try to get their religion taught in
public schools at the expense of the tax payer.
I may or may not be an atheist. I am probably not by my own
definition. Atheists may or not be atheists. It depends on their
definitions. I just hate that definition part, but I must explore
this also before I die.
I think the classic definition of an atheist is one who does not
believe in God. Whose God?
Any gods at all. If you are not theist, you are an atheist. It's not a
difficult concept.
Is an atheist one who defies the humanized God of local religions
who was forced on him/her in innocent childhood and is angry at the
resultant stunted growth the religions create?
See above.
Or is an atheist one who thinks they just sprang up on this planet
as a weed and and will die as such?
Weeds are generally very hardy and tenacious plants, which have adapted and
survived difficult conditions. You find them flourishing in a small crack
in the pavement, or in a garden where they are constantly under attack from
the gardener. They may be disliked for aesthetic reasons, or their effect
on the farmers production of food crops but from a biological point of view
they are successful species. Certainly I have no objection if someone
applies the terms hardy and tenacious to me.
BTW weeds are members of the clade Viridaeplantae. Which is a line of
Eukaryotes that split off from the Opisthokonts (of which humans and in
fact all metazoans and fungi are members) between 1.5 and two billion years
ago. The obvious distinguishing features being the presence in the cell of
the organelles known as Chloroplasts and the cell itself being enclosed in
a cell wall consisting mainly of cellulose. Weeds and humans are only very
distantly related ;-). Humans are however more closely related to mold.
This chracteristic is most notable in certain members of the species Homo
Sapiens Sapiens known as babblical cretinists such as yourself.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: "NC" |
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| Title: Re: Confusion... |
05 Oct 2006 09:28:26 PM |
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Stephen <tronsj@hotmail.com> wrote:
[Confusion] is all I see around me.
In reading the messages on alt.atheism I like it because it has a
thing right with it. It also has a thing wrong with it.
I can relate to this sentiment, though probably from a different angle.
The things I see as wrong are probably not the things you see as wrong.
You are a victim of where you are born and a victim of the
particular religion that was forced on you by your parents as their
parents did to them, and you can never entirely put that fire out in
yourself even when you see that and try to overcome it. Your love and
trust of your parents at such an early age is the strongest of forces.
The religions know this and use it.
True and I feel very fortunate that the elements of my own upbringing
allowed me to develop thinking skills. Most people on this planet aren't
that lucky.
You will still have a vestige of anger at what was done to you that
makes you attack the beliefs of others.
Don't start down the road of making unfounded assumptions about why
we're atheists. Anger and rebeliousness are NOT condusive to critical
thinking. Someone who would adopt what he perceives as an "opposing"
stance simply because a perceived authority told him not to is a fool.
But when you realize what was done to you and when you can see the
world as it really is, you will have a unique view of the world that
those who have not overcome what they were taught cannot ever see.
You will view those who still believe in religions sadly. It is a
lonely view you will have. You will see that everyone around you are
quite blissful as they go around like ants, spouting and spreading
their ignorance in such haste. Heck, it is just what they were taught
to do. It's not their fault. There is a calm bliss and sadness in
seeing the truth. Because you do care about them. But you will still
feel anger and want to fight because of the fire you can never put out
which comes from the effects of what you were taught as a trusting
child and you now know to be wrong.
I can relate to these feelings.
I may or may not be an atheist. I am probably not by my own
definition. Atheists may or not be atheists. It depends on their
definitions. I just hate that definition part, but I must explore
this also before I die.
Just remember it's not a religion or a club or anything it is JUST a
descriptive term. It communicates one bit of information and yes the
term would not need to exist if there were no theists to differentiate
from. It is the rampant pervasiveness of religion that compells us to
band together and discuss these topic, but that banding together is not
'atheism' and our lack of belief is not BECAUSE religion is so
widespread...that would be a stupid conclusion.
I think the classic definition of an atheist is one who does not
believe in God. Whose God?
Any form of deity be it anthropomorphic or not; part of a major religion
or not. The form is irrelevent it is the concept that we find absurd. I
wouldn't have hypothesised such a thing myself, I can tell you that.
Is an atheist one who defies the humanized God of local religions
who was forced on him/her in innocent childhood and is angry at the
resultant stunted growth the religions create?
As I said above, that would be pretty foolish. One can be angry at what
religions do without that being the reason for originally rejecting what
they believe.
Or is an atheist one who thinks they just sprang up on this planet
as a weed and and will die as such?
I don't know what that means. Is "they" the atheist or the religions?
You should avoid falling for these "is it this or is it that" questions.
You sound intelligent enough to know better than to submit to false
dichotomies.
I will say this once, and once only: No humanized God created
this universe and this playground for you. Why do you worship such a
locally created God to your detriment?
Whom are you addressing now?
You are not allowed to "fear" nor "pray" to the same life force of
which you are a part. You came from it, and you will return to it.
Is this for the theists now? "Life force" is new age pablum. Maybe you
meant it some other way.
New life will continue after my death, but I don't necesarily need
to consider that as some kind of immortality to help me sleep at night.
From my frame a reference when my brain stops working time and the
universe will come to a stop. Forever. Actually that's misleading. My
frame of reference will no longer exist so really nothing will happen at
all. Death is 'mu'. You can pity me for that if you want but try to
think of a reason to believe otherwise without bringing personal desire
into it.
In between, you should do your
best of making this Garden of Eden the best it can be for you and the
children who follow you and all the equals around you who are sharing
in this Garden.
Grow. Learn. If you can, have fun without hurting others. That
is what this life is for. Grow like weeds, but learn to not be like
weeds.
Don't be condescending. ;)
P.S. I expect a lot of discussion on this one and that is my goal.
Don't expect a response or rebuttal. I said my piece and I am done.
Have fun with it.
That's called a drive-by. Most people will perceive that as fear. Don't
want to take a chance at actual human interaction? Live a little!
NC
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Confusion... |
05 Oct 2006 04:49:37 AM |
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Stephen wrote:
...is all I see around me.
In reading the messages on alt.atheism I like it because it has a
thing right with it. It also has a thing wrong with it.
I wrote an essay a couple of years ago about what you would believe
based on where you were born. They were my own thoughts without
anyone else's input for the education of my distant kids, but I also
posted it on a newspaper's discussion group. Recently, I have Googled
my phrases and I have seen them on websites. I am happy I am not the
only one who is curious and who wants the damaging fire of ignorant
and selfish religions to go out. I am happy that there are so many
others who also see that fire and also want it to go out. My son
asked me at the end of 1999 what I thought the biggest threat would be
in the new century. That was an easy one. I told him the biggest
threat in the next century would be the same as all the previous
centuries have suffered...religion.
You are a victim of where you are born and a victim of the
particular religion that was forced on you by your parents as their
parents did to them, and you can never entirely put that fire out in
yourself even when you see that and try to overcome it. Your love and
trust of your parents at such an early age is the strongest of forces.
The religions know this and use it.
You will still have a vestige of anger at what was done to you that
makes you attack the beliefs of others.
But when you realize what was done to you and when you can see the
world as it really is, you will have a unique view of the world that
those who have not overcome what they were taught cannot ever see.
You will view those who still believe in religions sadly. It is a
lonely view you will have. You will see that everyone around you are
quite blissful as they go around like ants, spouting and spreading
their ignorance in such haste. Heck, it is just what they were taught
to do. It's not their fault. There is a calm bliss and sadness in
seeing the truth. Because you do care about them. But you will still
feel anger and want to fight because of the fire you can never put out
which comes from the effects of what you were taught as a trusting
child and you now know to be wrong.
I may or may not be an atheist. I am probably not by my own
definition. Atheists may or not be atheists. It depends on their
definitions. I just hate that definition part, but I must explore
this also before I die.
I think the classic definition of an atheist is one who does not
believe in God. Whose God?
This is a question we regularly ask the believers that come in here
preaching about some god or another. If I had to make an estimate, I'd
say a lower bound on the number of gods is the number of believers.
Anyway, regardless of the classic definition, the definition we use
here is "not a theist". There may be many brands of theism, but an
atheist rejects them all.
Is an atheist one who defies the humanized God of local religions
who was forced on him/her in innocent childhood and is angry at the
resultant stunted growth the religions create?
I think it's a common trait among many atheists to feel angry about the
harmful effects of religions, but unless you're talking about "God" in
terms of the idea in the minds of the believers, no atheists think
they're defying gods. You cannot defy something without acknowledging
its existence, and an atheist does not.
Or is an atheist one who thinks they just sprang up on this planet
as a weed and and will die as such?
I'm not sure I understand in what sense you're using the term "weed".
If you mean a product of a long series of generally undirected events,
I would accept that, though "undirected" is probably a poor choice of
words.
I pity the latter. I also have bad news for them. While they pity
themselves as weeds,
Hmm, I certainly don't pity myself, so you'll have to clarify what you
mean by "weed".
they are what they are because of what they were
taught as innocent children. It's also not their fault.
I will say this once, and once only: No humanized God created
this universe and this playground for you. Why do you worship such a
locally created God to your detriment? You are not allowed to "fear"
nor "pray" to the same life force of which you are a part. You came
from it, and you will return to it.
Is this supposed to be directed towards atheists? Except for the talk
about the as yet undefined "life force", you're not going to find too
much contention over these statements.
In between, you should do your
best of making this Garden of Eden the best it can be for you and the
children who follow you and all the equals around you who are sharing
in this Garden.
Grow. Learn. If you can, have fun without hurting others. That
is what this life is for. Grow like weeds, but learn to not be like
weeds.
Apart from the rather condescending tone, there wasn't much
controversial content, in my opinion.
P.S. I expect a lot of discussion on this one and that is my goal.
Don't expect a response or rebuttal. I said my piece and I am done.
Have fun with it.
I'd like a response, if you wouldn't mind. Too much of what you said is
vague, and I'd like clarification.
.
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| User: "Josh Miles" |
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| Title: Re: Confusion... |
05 Oct 2006 05:08:59 AM |
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Stephen wrote:
...is all I see around me.
In reading the messages on alt.atheism I like it because it has a
thing right with it. It also has a thing wrong with it.
What would that be?
I wrote an essay a couple of years ago about what you would believe
based on where you were born.
To some degree, yes. But what you believe isn't *totally* determined by
the beliefs of the people who raised you.
They were my own thoughts without
anyone else's input for the education of my distant kids, but I also
posted it on a newspaper's discussion group. Recently, I have Googled
my phrases and I have seen them on websites. I am happy I am not the
only one who is curious and who wants the damaging fire of ignorant
and selfish religions to go out. I am happy that there are so many
others who also see that fire and also want it to go out. My son
asked me at the end of 1999 what I thought the biggest threat would be
in the new century. That was an easy one. I told him the biggest
threat in the next century would be the same as all the previous
centuries have suffered...religion.
You are a victim of where you are born and a victim of the
particular religion that was forced on you by your parents as their
parents did to them,
See above.
and you can never entirely put that fire out in
yourself even when you see that and try to overcome it.
Utter nonsense.
Your love and trust of your parents at such an early age is the strongest of forces.
The religions know this and use it.
They rely more sheep mentality of gullible people.
You will still have a vestige of anger at what was done to you that
makes you attack the beliefs of others.
I'm not angry about being raised by Christians. What you're saying here
sounds a lot like the typical fundamentalist Christian argument that
atheists don't believe in God because they're angry at him or because
they're angry at a certain religion. And that argument is, of course,
nonsense.
But when you realize what was done to you and when you can see the
world as it really is, you will have a unique view of the world that
those who have not overcome what they were taught cannot ever see.
You will view those who still believe in religions sadly.
That last sentence makes no sense.
It is a lonely view you will have. You will see that everyone around you are
quite blissful as they go around like ants, spouting and spreading
their ignorance in such haste. Heck, it is just what they were taught
to do. It's not their fault.
Yes it is. When you become an adult, no one is responsible for your
actions but you. "I was raised that way" is never a good excuse for
anything.
There is a calm bliss and sadness in
seeing the truth. Because you do care about them. But you will still
feel anger and want to fight because of the fire you can never put out
which comes from the effects of what you were taught as a trusting
child and you now know to be wrong.
More baseless assertions.
I may or may not be an atheist. I am probably not by my own
definition. Atheists may or not be atheists. It depends on their
definitions. I just hate that definition part, but I must explore
this also before I die.
I think the classic definition of an atheist is one who does not
believe in God. Whose God?
ANY deity.
Is an atheist one who defies the humanized God of local religions
who was forced on him/her in innocent childhood and is angry at the
resultant stunted growth the religions create?
Once again, this is complete and utter *****. I'm not angry at God.
How can I be angry at something I have no belief in?
Or is an atheist one who thinks they just sprang up on this planet
as a weed and and will die as such?
Everyone is born an atheist.
I pity the latter. I also have bad news for them. While they pity
themselves as weeds,
What's with this "weed" nonsense?
they are what they are because of what they were
taught as innocent children. It's also not their fault.
Again, yes it is. If you don't think for yourself, it's no one's fault
but yours.
I will say this once, and once only: No humanized God created
this universe and this playground for you.
What? Next you're going to tell me there's no Santa Claus. How dare you.
Why do you worship such a locally created God to your detriment?
You're asking a group of atheists why they worship a certain god. I
doubt you see how stupid that is.
You are not allowed to "fear" nor "pray" to the same life force of which you are a part.
Here comes the New Age *****.
You came
from it, and you will return to it. In between, you should do your
best of making this Garden of Eden the best it can be for you and the
children who follow you and all the equals around you who are sharing
in this Garden.
Lay off the mushrooms.
Grow. Learn. If you can, have fun without hurting others. That
is what this life is for. Grow like weeds, but learn to not be like
weeds.
P.S. I expect a lot of discussion on this one and that is my goal.
Don't expect a response or rebuttal. I said my piece and I am done.
Have fun with it.
Another hit and run Christian pretending to be an atheist.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Confusion... |
05 Oct 2006 09:27:04 AM |
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On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:08:59 -0500, Josh Miles <no@thanks.com> wrote:
Stephen wrote:
Or is an atheist one who thinks they just sprang up on this planet
as a weed and and will die as such?
Everyone is born an atheist.
I pity the latter. I also have bad news for them. While they pity
themselves as weeds,
What's with this "weed" nonsense?
A weed can be described as a plant in the wrong place. We also
call them native wild flowers. In fact a weed is a plant that is so
successful in its niche or local environment that it easily propogates
and grows and thus keeps popping up where you do
not want it. You especially do not want it in an ornamental
garden where you try to cultivate plants that are not best
suited to your environment and are unable to compete with the
native plants. Thus the cactus grows prolifically in one place but
needs carefully tending in a constantly 'weeded' garden
elsewhere. I would not even try to grow a cactus outside
in my garden (don't like them anyway).
In the same way, Atheism is the weed, the natural plant
which will best flourish when left to. Christianty is the plant
(in the 'planted' sense) that is not 'native' and needs to be
artificially nurtured (a euphonism for enforced). Thus
Christianity is not the natural order of things, atheism is. :-)
--
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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