Religions > Atheism > Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"TRUECRISTIAN" |
| Date: |
03 Apr 2006 05:30:29 PM |
| Object: |
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 06:04:22 PM |
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"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Thomas Jefferson was an atheist, you moron.
UV
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| User: "Rick C" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
05 Apr 2006 08:13:00 PM |
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Not atheist, Deist. The Deists claimed a huge difference between
atheism and deism that did not exist in practice.
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| User: "TRUECRISTIAN" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
06 Apr 2006 02:38:47 AM |
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proving logical negatives= "arguementum ad ignorantiam" of course this
goes both ways, but just as one cant prove something exists, another
cannot prove something doesnt exist, without proof. consider the debate
of the unicorn, no one has proven them to exist, nor has anyone
disproven their existance. just like god, existance of unicorns does
not enter the realm of logic. of course logic has nothing to do with
beliefs. i would like to add that i dont believe in the easter bunny,
though i dont find it my lifes quest to remove the belief that the
easter bunny does not exist from those who beleive it does. atheism is
itself a belief, it is not backed by logical facts, so therefore
atheism logically cannot exist, not logically, of course it can and
does exist as a belief system, but not in any sort of logical manner
can it be proven any better than the presence or existance of god can
be proven or disproven. so my question to athiests, given what i have
shared with you, do you think you have logically disporoven the
existance of god? if not, we are ALL reduced to accept that we have our
many different beliefs, yet none of these beliefs are something we can
consider something we can logically prove to be considered factual in
any logical sense. can anyone call themselves an athiest even though
techincally it is impossible to do so considering it is not a logical
fact at all? unless someone can logically disprove god, it pretty much
leaves everyone being agnostic at most, right?
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| User: "fivefootstep" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
07 Apr 2006 04:25:30 AM |
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Actually, atheists simply do not believe in a god - you disbelieve in
all but one, we simply disbelieve in one fewer... and that is no less
sensible than believing in a god.
And, to add insult (mine) to injury (yours), religion has a tendency to
argue for things that have been proven never to have happened (ie the
big flood) and atheists only accept as truth those things that have
been proven, simply rejecting everything else.
Agnostics, however, profess "I don't know" and, on occasion, "and you
don't either." Atheists predicate their "beliefs" on something being
proven rather than refuted. Theists believe things until they're
refuted (and, in some cases, contiue on thereafter). Atheists
disbelieve things until they are proven, at which time they KNOW them,
because they are facts.
Please tell me you're following the logic... are you even paying
attention?
--
Maybe I should change my name to "TRUEATEIST"
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| User: "TRUECRISTIAN" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
07 Apr 2006 10:51:19 AM |
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FAGOT
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| User: "Mama" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
07 Apr 2006 03:23:37 PM |
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On 7 Apr 2006 08:51:19 -0700, "TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM>
wrote:
FAGOT
His logic was too much for you?
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| User: "TRUECRISTIAN" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
08 Apr 2006 01:09:19 AM |
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Saddam Hussein's intelligence files indicates that the Iraqi dictator
ordered suicide attacks against U.S. targets six months before the 9/11
attacks.
"This memo will prove that Saddam had no intention of remaining
neutralized in the region. He not only funded and encouraged terrorism,
but he actively recruited terrorists from the ranks of his own military
to carry out suicide attacks on American interests."
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
06 Apr 2006 04:04:57 AM |
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TRUECRISTIAN skrev:
proving logical negatives= "arguementum ad ignorantiam" of course this
goes both ways, but just as one cant prove something exists, another
cannot prove something doesnt exist, without proof. consider the debate
of the unicorn, no one has proven them to exist, nor has anyone
disproven their existance. just like god, existance of unicorns does
not enter the realm of logic. of course logic has nothing to do with
beliefs. i would like to add that i dont believe in the easter bunny,
though i dont find it my lifes quest to remove the belief that the
easter bunny does not exist from those who beleive it does.
Believers in the Easter Bunny do not demand special treatment by the
state. They do not promote the idea that non-believers in the Easter
Bunny are not fit for positions of trust. They do not insist that only
they can possibly have any morals.
atheism is
itself a belief, it is not backed by logical facts,
No it is not a belief. It is a rejection of a belief in deity, and it
is very logically based on the lack of objective evidence for any
deity.
so therefore
atheism logically cannot exist, not logically, of course it can and
does exist as a belief system,
Since it is not a belief, it cannot be a belief system; which would
require at least two beliefs.
but not in any sort of logical manner
can it be proven any better than the presence or existance of god can
be proven or disproven. so my question to athiests, given what i have
shared with you, do you think you have logically disporoven the
existance of god?
Why would an atheist have to disprove the existence of a god? The
non-existence of a god is not the point; the lack of any objective
evidence for any deity is.
if not, we are ALL reduced to accept that we have our
many different beliefs, yet none of these beliefs are something we can
consider something we can logically prove to be considered factual in
any logical sense. can anyone call themselves an athiest even though
techincally it is impossible to do so considering it is not a logical
fact at all? unless someone can logically disprove god, it pretty much
leaves everyone being agnostic at most, right?
No, and that should be more than obvious to anybody with average
intelligence. Your argument, delibrately or not, is based on
equivocation. I am an atheist. My atheism consists of not believing
any deity idea that I have heard of so far; it is not a belief or a
belief system. No doubt all of this has been pointed out to you many
times before, so it is hard to understand why you continue to present
such an argument.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
06 Apr 2006 04:20:56 AM |
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thomas p wrote:
TRUECRISTIAN skrev:
snip
if not, we are ALL reduced to accept that we have our
many different beliefs, yet none of these beliefs are something we can
consider something we can logically prove to be considered factual in
any logical sense. can anyone call themselves an athiest even though
techincally it is impossible to do so considering it is not a logical
fact at all? unless someone can logically disprove god, it pretty much
leaves everyone being agnostic at most, right?
No, and that should be more than obvious to anybody with average
intelligence. Your argument, delibrately or not, is based on
equivocation. I am an atheist. My atheism consists of not believing
any deity idea that I have heard of so far; it is not a belief or a
belief system. No doubt all of this has been pointed out to you many
times before, so it is hard to understand why you continue to present
such an argument.
It's because he has nothing else. He has shot his bolt, and cannot
imagine that it fell short. How many of them have we seen in
alt.atheism? Riding in on a glorious mixture of ignorance &
self-righetous glory, only to completely and miserably fail in their
"mission" (pun intended). They never see how much damage they're doing
to their moronic Iron Age cult.
But you know what? *I* see. Little by little. People don't announce
their arrival in the group very much anymore, but every month I see a
couple of new names. Names where there used to be confused
lurkers-wondering if it's really OK that they just can't stomach that
tripe any more. From the US perspective, people like TC are solid
gold-they are often the reason the `in-the-closet' atheist finally
stands and says, "Shut the ***** up!" And here in the `States, we need a
lot of that. <g>
-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Department of Telepropaganda
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
06 Apr 2006 05:01:50 AM |
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wrote:
thomas p wrote:
TRUECRISTIAN skrev:
snip
It's because he has nothing else. He has shot his bolt, and cannot
imagine that it fell short. How many of them have we seen in
alt.atheism? Riding in on a glorious mixture of ignorance &
self-righetous glory, only to completely and miserably fail in their
"mission" (pun intended). They never see how much damage they're doing
to their moronic Iron Age cult.
But you know what? *I* see. Little by little. People don't announce
their arrival in the group very much anymore, but every month I see a
couple of new names. Names where there used to be confused
lurkers-wondering if it's really OK that they just can't stomach that
tripe any more. From the US perspective, people like TC are solid
gold-they are often the reason the `in-the-closet' atheist finally
stands and says, "Shut the ***** up!" And here in the `States, we need a
lot of that. <g>
Amen!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
07 Apr 2006 12:26:48 AM |
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thomas p wrote:
panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:
thomas p wrote:
TRUECRISTIAN skrev:
snip
It's because he has nothing else. He has shot his bolt, and cannot
imagine that it fell short. How many of them have we seen in
alt.atheism? Riding in on a glorious mixture of ignorance &
self-righetous glory, only to completely and miserably fail in their
"mission" (pun intended). They never see how much damage they're doing
to their moronic Iron Age cult.
But you know what? *I* see. Little by little. People don't announce
their arrival in the group very much anymore, but every month I see a
couple of new names. Names where there used to be confused
lurkers-wondering if it's really OK that they just can't stomach that
tripe any more. From the US perspective, people like TC are solid
gold-they are often the reason the `in-the-closet' atheist finally
stands and says, "Shut the ***** up!" And here in the `States, we need a
lot of that. <g>
Amen!
Thank you. I really do think a change is in the wind in the US. I thank
the internet for a lot of that. I remember when I first "gave up da
ghost" twenty or so years ago, I thought I was the only one. Now,
there's no need for an atheist to feel alone anymore. And if we
continue along this path, there won't need to be a reason to keep quiet
about it, either.
-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Department of Telepropaganda
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
04 Apr 2006 01:05:51 AM |
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Uncle Vic wrote:
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Thomas Jefferson was an atheist, you moron.
UV
Actually, he was a deist.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
04 Apr 2006 02:22:47 AM |
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144130751.900878.265800@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the
power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Thomas Jefferson was an atheist, you moron.
UV
Actually, he was a deist.
I thought that was Ben Franklin.
UV
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
05 Apr 2006 03:00:39 AM |
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Uncle Vic wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144130751.900878.265800@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the
power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Thomas Jefferson was an atheist, you moron.
UV
Actually, he was a deist.
I thought that was Ben Franklin.
UV
I think you'll find most of the Founding Fathers were deists. The
only genuine atheist I can think of off the top of my head is Tom Paine
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
04 Apr 2006 06:32:53 AM |
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L. Raymond wrote:
Uncle Vic wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144130751.900878.265800@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the
power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Thomas Jefferson was an atheist, you moron.
UV
Actually, he was a deist.
I thought that was Ben Franklin.
UV
I think you'll find most of the Founding Fathers were deists. The
only genuine atheist I can think of off the top of my head is Tom Paine
L. Raymond
Either way the things he said about Christians makes him good enough
for me. (In case you don't know, he didn't like 'em.)
jwk
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
05 Apr 2006 01:07:26 PM |
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jwk wrote:
L. Raymond wrote:
I think you'll find most of the Founding Fathers were deists. The
only genuine atheist I can think of off the top of my head is Tom Paine
Either way the things he said about Christians makes him good enough
for me. (In case you don't know, he didn't like 'em.)
I assume you mean Jefferson? I've read his thoughts on the bible, and
on Jesus specifically. It's obvious why people at the time would think
he's atheist, just as through every period whoever didn't act like the
majority or worship the exact same gods in the exact same way as they
did was called an atheist.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "George Ricker" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
05 Apr 2006 06:55:38 AM |
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In article <512eapzl6ks5.co2522acolmd.dlg@40tude.net>,
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
jwk wrote:
L. Raymond wrote:
I think you'll find most of the Founding Fathers were deists. The
only genuine atheist I can think of off the top of my head is Tom Paine
Either way the things he said about Christians makes him good enough
for me. (In case you don't know, he didn't like 'em.)
I assume you mean Jefferson? I've read his thoughts on the bible, and
on Jesus specifically. It's obvious why people at the time would think
he's atheist, just as through every period whoever didn't act like the
majority or worship the exact same gods in the exact same way as they
did was called an atheist.
One small note. Paine was no atheist either. In chapter one of "The Age
of Reason" he declared, " I believe in one God, and no more, and I hope
for happiness beyond this life."
He followed that with a statement of the things he did not believe in,
which included the creeds of all organized religion. Paine was a Deist,
like Jefferson, Franklin, and, possibly, Washington.
Given their interest in science and technology, it's possible, if not
probable, the first three (Paine, Jefferson, and Franklin) would be
atheists if they were alive today, but that's speculation. It's evident
from their writings that all three believed in a deity while rejecting
conventional religion.
--
George Ricker
"Godless in America" by George Ricker is now available at amazon.com.
Go to http://www.godlessinamerica.com for more information.
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
06 Apr 2006 07:43:22 PM |
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One small note. Paine was no atheist either. In chapter one of "The Age
of Reason" he declared, " I believe in one God, and no more, and I hope
for happiness beyond this life."
He followed that with a statement of the things he did not believe in,
which included the creeds of all organized religion. Paine was a Deist,
like Jefferson, Franklin, and, possibly, Washington.
I was working from memory of something he wrote, and I'll see if I
can't locate the book again to see what it was. I'm nearly certain he
underwent a change in outlook and declared himself atheist, but I won't
swear to it. It's been a while since I've read through his writings.
Given their interest in science and technology, it's possible, if not
probable, the first three (Paine, Jefferson, and Franklin) would be
atheists if they were alive today, but that's speculation. It's evident
from their writings that all three believed in a deity while rejecting
conventional religion.
I completely agree with this.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "George Ricker" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
06 Apr 2006 06:59:01 AM |
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In article <iv1emt7otygb$.wfwl54e98e0j.dlg@40tude.net>,
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
One small note. Paine was no atheist either. In chapter one of "The Age
of Reason" he declared, " I believe in one God, and no more, and I hope
for happiness beyond this life."
He followed that with a statement of the things he did not believe in,
which included the creeds of all organized religion. Paine was a Deist,
like Jefferson, Franklin, and, possibly, Washington.
I was working from memory of something he wrote, and I'll see if I
can't locate the book again to see what it was. I'm nearly certain he
underwent a change in outlook and declared himself atheist, but I won't
swear to it. It's been a while since I've read through his writings.
I'm reasonably familiar with his writings--although I certainly don't
claim to be an expert--and don't recall anything like that. I would be
interested in the reference if you can find it.
Of course, there were lots of other people calling him an atheist once
"The Age of Reason" was published. Is it possible you are thinking of
one of those references?
--
George Ricker
"Godless in America" by George Ricker is now available at amazon.com.
Go to http://www.godlessinamerica.com for more information.
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
07 Apr 2006 03:19:10 PM |
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George Ricker wrote:
I'm reasonably familiar with his writings--although I certainly don't
claim to be an expert--and don't recall anything like that. I would be
interested in the reference if you can find it.
Of course, there were lots of other people calling him an atheist once
"The Age of Reason" was published. Is it possible you are thinking of
one of those references?
No. I went back last night and re-read everything I have by him
written after Age of Reason and obviously I just confused him with
another gentleman of the time. I had recently run through my political
and essay books to weed out ones I didn't think were worth keeping, and
no doubt one of the essays I had re-read while doing that is what I was
crediting to Paine.
If I count fiction as one category, then essays are the second largest
section of my library, so I'm not surprised I could make a mistake like
that, having read so many in just a few days.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "George Ricker" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
06 Apr 2006 05:35:48 PM |
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In article <je0oiuzjkx4p$.5wla2wms94ai$.dlg@40tude.net>,
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
George Ricker wrote:
I'm reasonably familiar with his writings--although I certainly don't
claim to be an expert--and don't recall anything like that. I would be
interested in the reference if you can find it.
Of course, there were lots of other people calling him an atheist once
"The Age of Reason" was published. Is it possible you are thinking of
one of those references?
No. I went back last night and re-read everything I have by him
written after Age of Reason and obviously I just confused him with
another gentleman of the time. I had recently run through my political
and essay books to weed out ones I didn't think were worth keeping, and
no doubt one of the essays I had re-read while doing that is what I was
crediting to Paine.
If I count fiction as one category, then essays are the second largest
section of my library, so I'm not surprised I could make a mistake like
that, having read so many in just a few days.
FYI, practically everything Paine ever wrote can be read online. The
Thomas Paine National Historical Society has an extensive catalogue of
his works online at http://www.thomaspaine.org/ along with several
biographies.
One of the tidbits I uncovered while preparing to give a talk on Paine
at our local freethought group around the Fourth of July last year was
that Paine was the first writer on this side of the Atlantic to call for
the abolition of slavery outright--this at a time when slavery was
practiced in the North as well as the South. Others had called for an
end to the slave trade. He was the first to call for an end to slavery
itself. He also was a charter member of one of the oldest abolitionist
societies in North America. It was established in Philadelphia before
the Revolutionary War.
--
George Ricker
"Godless in America" by George Ricker is now available at amazon.com.
Go to http://www.godlessinamerica.com for more information.
.
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
07 Apr 2006 11:49:50 PM |
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George Ricker wrote:
No. I went back last night and re-read everything I have by him
written after Age of Reason and obviously I just confused him with
another gentleman of the time. I had recently run through my political
and essay books to weed out ones I didn't think were worth keeping, and
no doubt one of the essays I had re-read while doing that is what I was
crediting to Paine.
If I count fiction as one category, then essays are the second largest
section of my library, so I'm not surprised I could make a mistake like
that, having read so many in just a few days.
FYI, practically everything Paine ever wrote can be read online. The
Thomas Paine National Historical Society has an extensive catalogue of
his works online at http://www.thomaspaine.org/ along with several
biographies.
Oh, I know. I keep all sorts of sites bookmarked which offer the
writings of many, many people, but I use them to decide which books to
buy. I really don't like reading things online.
One of the tidbits I uncovered while preparing to give a talk on Paine
at our local freethought group around the Fourth of July last year was
that Paine was the first writer on this side of the Atlantic to call for
the abolition of slavery outright--this at a time when slavery was
practiced in the North as well as the South. Others had called for an
end to the slave trade. He was the first to call for an end to slavery
itself. He also was a charter member of one of the oldest abolitionist
societies in North America. It was established in Philadelphia before
the Revolutionary War.
_The Writings of Thomas Paine_, published by Penguin Classics,
includes that info in the introduction to that particular pamphlet. He
argues that slavery is wholly, totally and completely unchristian,
showing what he knows of the bible. One of his arguments was that no
other nation in the history of the world went out and seized people for
no other reason that to enslave them, as opposed to enslaving legitimate
prisoners of war, which is chiefly how American slavery differed from
biblical. But the Jews would go into battle for a pure land grab with
an upfront promise of slaves, and I'd say that's the same thing.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "George Ricker" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
08 Apr 2006 12:30:18 PM |
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In article <1wy7rx1t6pcu$.l0who395aein.dlg@40tude.net>,
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
George Ricker wrote:
<SNIP> to save space
One of the tidbits I uncovered while preparing to give a talk on Paine
at our local freethought group around the Fourth of July last year was
that Paine was the first writer on this side of the Atlantic to call for
the abolition of slavery outright--this at a time when slavery was
practiced in the North as well as the South. Others had called for an
end to the slave trade. He was the first to call for an end to slavery
itself. He also was a charter member of one of the oldest abolitionist
societies in North America. It was established in Philadelphia before
the Revolutionary War.
_The Writings of Thomas Paine_, published by Penguin Classics,
includes that info in the introduction to that particular pamphlet. He
argues that slavery is wholly, totally and completely unchristian,
showing what he knows of the bible. One of his arguments was that no
other nation in the history of the world went out and seized people for
no other reason that to enslave them, as opposed to enslaving legitimate
prisoners of war, which is chiefly how American slavery differed from
biblical. But the Jews would go into battle for a pure land grab with
an upfront promise of slaves, and I'd say that's the same thing.
Sounds like a distinction with very little difference. Besides, the
slave trade was international. Portugal appears to have been the first
European nation involved but most soon followed. Britain was heavily
involved before it decided to end the practice. The Americas, not just
the British colonies in North America but all the European colonies
throughout the hemisphere, were the chief market for African slaves.
Paine's appeal to Christian principle probably was to the warm, fuzzy
version of Christianity so popular in the public imagination. As you
note, it's unbiblical. The holy book of the Christians never condemns
the practice, and there are passages that endorse it.
I just found it interesting that he was out front on that issue, as he
was on many others.
--
George Ricker
"Godless in America" by George Ricker is now available at amazon.com.
Go to http://www.godlessinamerica.com for more information.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
09 Apr 2006 04:36:44 PM |
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George Ricker wrote:
In article <1wy7rx1t6pcu$.l0who395aein.dlg@40tude.net>,
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
George Ricker wrote:
<SNIP> to save space
One of the tidbits I uncovered while preparing to give a talk on Paine
at our local freethought group around the Fourth of July last year was
that Paine was the first writer on this side of the Atlantic to call
for the abolition of slavery outright--this at a time when slavery was
practiced in the North as well as the South. Others had called for an
end to the slave trade. He was the first to call for an end to slavery
itself. He also was a charter member of one of the oldest abolitionist
societies in North America. It was established in Philadelphia before
the Revolutionary War.
_The Writings of Thomas Paine_, published by Penguin Classics,
includes that info in the introduction to that particular pamphlet. He
argues that slavery is wholly, totally and completely unchristian,
showing what he knows of the bible. One of his arguments was that no
other nation in the history of the world went out and seized people for
no other reason that to enslave them, as opposed to enslaving legitimate
prisoners of war, which is chiefly how American slavery differed from
biblical. But the Jews would go into battle for a pure land grab with
an upfront promise of slaves, and I'd say that's the same thing.
Sounds like a distinction with very little difference.
Actually not. The NT does not say anything about
slavery, for that you go to the old.
Deuteronomy 24:7 condemns "man stealing",
its a capitol crime.
Besides, the
slave trade was international. Portugal appears to have been the first
European nation involved but most soon followed.
Actually it was Venice and Genoa who got involved with
buying and selling slaves with the Turks. Repeat condemnations
by the papcy failed to end that.
Britain was heavily
involved before it decided to end the practice. The Americas, not just
the British colonies in North America but all the European colonies
throughout the hemisphere, were the chief market for African slaves.
Paine's appeal to Christian principle probably was to the warm, fuzzy
version of Christianity so popular in the public imagination. As you
note, it's unbiblical. The holy book of the Christians never condemns
the practice, and there are passages that endorse it.
I just found it interesting that he was out front on that issue, as he
was on many others.
The debate on slavery goes far back. It was divisive during the
approach of the revolutionary war and as a subject was shelved
as a subject of debate 40 years to keep the Southern colonies
supportive of the war.
--
Just when did the children of Cthulhu take
over our government anyway?
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
05 Apr 2006 07:15:11 AM |
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:55:38 GMT, George Ricker
<gSPAMFREEricker@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
In article <512eapzl6ks5.co2522acolmd.dlg@40tude.net>,
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
jwk wrote:
L. Raymond wrote:
I think you'll find most of the Founding Fathers were deists. The
only genuine atheist I can think of off the top of my head is Tom Paine
Either way the things he said about Christians makes him good enough
for me. (In case you don't know, he didn't like 'em.)
I assume you mean Jefferson? I've read his thoughts on the bible, and
on Jesus specifically. It's obvious why people at the time would think
he's atheist, just as through every period whoever didn't act like the
majority or worship the exact same gods in the exact same way as they
did was called an atheist.
One small note. Paine was no atheist either. In chapter one of "The Age
of Reason" he declared, " I believe in one God, and no more, and I hope
for happiness beyond this life."
He was certainly no Christian. And none of them were the brainwashed
fundamentalists of today.
Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is
always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by
law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes
its original benignity.
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791
As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all
government to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know
of no other business which government hath to do therewith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794), quoted from Laird Wilcox,
ed., The Writer's Rights (2002) p. 31
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's
Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of
Quotations
Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of
a child, cannot be a true system.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder;
for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which
those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well
Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or
sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing
and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Everything wonderful in appearance has been ascribed to angels, to
devils, or to saints. Everything ancient has some legendary tale
annexed to it. The common operations of nature have not escaped their
practice of corrupting everything.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the
belief of this debauchery is called faith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
The Bible is a book that has been read more, and examined less, than
any book that ever existed.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Priests and conjurors are of the same trade.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793), quoted from Jonathon Green,
The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
The story of the redemption will not stand examination. That man
should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a
murder on Jesus Christ, is the strangest system of religion ever set
up.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the
lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved
or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten
possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented
creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the
Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented
it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find
them arranged.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the
cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with
which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a
history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest
everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of
atheism -- a sort of religious denial of God. It professed to believe
in man rather than in God. It is as near to atheism as twilight to
darkness. It introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body,
which it calls a Redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self
between the earth and the sun, and it produces by this means a
religious or irreligious eclipse of the light. It has put the whole
orbit of reason into shade.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations), also found inVictor J. Stenger, Has Science Found
God? (2001)
Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
The continually progressive change to which the meaning of words is
subject, the want of a universal language which renders translation
necessary, the errors to which translations are again subject, the
mistakes of copyists and printers, together with the possibility of
willful alteration, are of themselves evidences that the human
language, whether in speech or in print, cannot be the vehicle of the
Word of God. The Word of God exists in something else.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
He followed that with a statement of the things he did not believe in,
which included the creeds of all organized religion. Paine was a Deist,
like Jefferson, Franklin, and, possibly, Washington.
Given their interest in science and technology, it's possible, if not
probable, the first three (Paine, Jefferson, and Franklin) would be
atheists if they were alive today, but that's speculation. It's evident
from their writings that all three believed in a deity while rejecting
conventional religion.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
04 Apr 2006 04:46:56 PM |
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 03:00:39 -0500, "L. Raymond"
<badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Uncle Vic wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144130751.900878.265800@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the
power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Thomas Jefferson was an atheist, you moron.
UV
Actually, he was a deist.
I thought that was Ben Franklin.
UV
I think you'll find most of the Founding Fathers were deists. The
only genuine atheist I can think of off the top of my head is Tom Paine
Deists believe in a God, not a religious con to rule over flocks of
sheeple. Could they be the next best thing to atheists? It's the
theology that is bad, and only theists have it. It's them that teach
that deism is identical, only to blur the issue favoring theism.
That's your god-bots lying despite the 9th commandment to attempt to
add weight to their argument that the USA is a Christian nation. To my
knowledge deists aren't Christians.
Sunyata
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 10:06:19 PM |
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"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
why is it that you lie so much?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
05 Apr 2006 10:57:12 AM |
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 23:06:19 -0400, "GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
why is it that you lie so much?
Because it's a "TRUECRISTIAN"(sic)
--
zamboni #2139
BAAWA Assistant to the Vice-Administrator of Malevolence
EAC Tertiary Adjunct to the Dispenser of Obfuscation.
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 08:42:47 PM |
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On 3 Apr 2006 15:30:29 -0700, "TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM>
wrote:
You expect to be taken as a 'true' christian when you can't even
spell it?
Oh... wait... I'm wrong. You are a christian.
Oops....
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 09:31:33 PM |
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"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:uhj33298i08ffjk1lbud5ie5ut9lsfg3no@4ax.com...
On 3 Apr 2006 15:30:29 -0700, "TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM>
wrote:
You expect to be taken as a 'true' christian when you can't even
spell it?
Oh... wait... I'm wrong. You are a christian.
Oops....
Not only that, he's been informed several times about the misspelling of his
OWN NAME. Yet he either ignores it, doesn't give a *****, or thinks we're
wrong.
Right. He's a christian.
UV
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 05:56:52 PM |
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On 3 Apr 2006 15:30:29 -0700, "TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM>
wrote:
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD
No, he did not. Nowhere in anything written by Jefferson does this
appear, including the DOI, which, BTW, is not part of the
Constitution.
Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
You're being either incredibly ignorant or incredibly dishonest: the
Constitution deliberately omits any reference to deity, and states
that Government derives from "We The People".
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 05:46:58 PM |
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On 3 Apr 2006 15:30:29 -0700, "TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> in
news message <1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
No, it doesn't.
Liz #658 BAAWA
Religion may in most of its forms be defined as the
belief that the gods are on the side of the government.
-- Bertrand Russell
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 06:28:23 PM |
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On 3 Apr 2006 15:30:29 -0700, in alt.atheism
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in
<1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>:
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Of course Jefferson had no use for Christianity and he was attacking the
_Christian_ doctrines about divine right and government. The
Constitution is absolutely silent about Jesus, unless you delude
yourself into thinking that the date shows acknowledges the supremacy of
Jesus.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ |
03 Apr 2006 05:50:24 PM |
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Previously, on alt.atheism, TRUECRISTIAN in episode
<1144103428.935569.325570@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>...
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of
the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was claimed
that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was
from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
Yeah, the constitution of the Confederate States of America does...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
I just love this one...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "Fester" |
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| Title: Re: Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of JesusChrist |
03 Apr 2006 10:05:10 PM |
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TRUECRISTIAN wrote:
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus Christ
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the
opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power
of the government is derived from the GOD Up until that time, it was
claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The
Declaration was from the idea of divine authority.
Constitution so deliberately acknowledges the supremacy of Jesus
Christ
our Lord over America
<quote>
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from
the consent of the governed
</quote>
<quote>
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of
Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America.
</quote>
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