Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?



 Religions > Atheism > Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 1 of 3

1

 

2

 

3

 
Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Sound of Trumpet"
Date: 09 Sep 2007 12:49:46 PM
Object: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts
Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]
Taki's Top Drawer ^ | July 10, 2007 | Charles Coulombe.
Posted on 08/05/2007 6:56:12 PM PDT by Diago
Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?
Posted by Charles A. Coulombe on July 10, 2007
Back during the Roaring '20s, a then-contemporary witticism had it
that four institutions would prevent the takeover of Europe by
Communism: the German General Staff, the British House of Lords, the
Academie Fran=E7aise, and the Holy See. Eighty years have brought many
changes, to be sure. On the one hand, Communism is as unlikely to
remerge in Europe as Fascism or Nazism. But on the other, the four
mentioned institutions have also undergone alteration. The German
General Staff was corrupted by Hitler, and destroyed by the allies;
the House of Lords has suffered the same fate (albeit in reverse
order) at the hands of the late Tony Blair. The cultural supremacy of
English has diminished the relevance and importance of the Academie
severely: as one French friend told me, "it would not be so terrible
for the language of Moliere to be eclipsed by that of Shakespeare; but
by that of Rod McKuen?" A horrible fate for us all, to be sure.
Moreover, if Communism has departed for the happy hunting ground of
evil philosophies, the civilization of the West has acquired other
enemies, unthinkable in the Flapper age. Islam is the obvious external
threat-not merely in terms of terrorism and the like, but by a
seemingly inexorable birth-rate within the Mother Continent herself.
This latter development is matched by a corresponding fall in the
fertility of the native population, itself bound up with a sickness-of-
self on the part of that same population. To a great degree, this is
the result of a second, internal enemy: a secularism that hates all
that Europe, North America, and Australasia once were, and that would
replace it with-well, that's just it. It is a state of mind that
cannot build; it can only destroy. Worse, it is the dominant mindset
among those of the Western elites who belong to that age-group called
the "Baby Boomers" in America , and the "Generation of '68" in Europe.
Despite the rapid onset of old age, they cling to the rebelliousness
of their youth as though it were a mystic talisman, protecting them
from Father Time. All that made the West strong, in culture,
governance, politics, and most assuredly in religion, is intolerable
to them. But if the identities of the nations they manage are
destroyed from above and within, how can those countries possibly
survive in the long run?
The one remaining member of the quartet earlier mentioned is the Holy
See. But it too is not what it was when Pius XI occupied St. Peter's
Throne. The horrors of World War II damaged the self-confidence in the
Catholic ethos of the generation of clerics who lived through them.
This would play a big part in the events of Vatican II and its
aftermath. However one wishes to view those occurrences, the fact
remains that by 1970, the Church appeared to be in an acute state of
what Paul VI called "auto-demolition." Although the Holy See under
John Paul II contributed heavily to the fall of the Soviet Union , and
its role in the diplomatic world expanded, the Church's ability to
counter the self-destructive tendencies in Western Culture became
severely limited. Supposedly Catholic legislators throughout the West
(even including such clerics as Congressman Robert Drinan, S.J.)
joined gleefully in wrecking the moral and political heritage of
centuries. Bishops themselves often quietly acquiesced in this,
refusing to discipline such members of their flock as, say, Teddy
Kennedy, for their anti-Catholic voting patterns. This was, however,
emblematic of said prelates' attempts to purge the Church of every
vestige of the Catholic past.
Nowhere were these attempts more obvious than with the liturgy, the
center of the Catholic religion. Most particularly, the classical form
of the Catholic Mass and various other Sacraments was virtually
banished from almost every nook of Christendom. With it went much of
the distinctive Catholic identity-so much a part of the very
foundation of Western culture. As the Harvard historian Christopher
Dawson famously remarked, culture flows from "cult," or worship; when
forces internal or external root out the forms or content of religious
practice in a civilization, they have essentially cut out its heart--
the brain will follow.
After some 36 years of liturgical controversy, Pope Benedict XVI, on
Saturday, July 7, 2007, in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, has
liberated the ancient Roman liturgy, which, after September 14 of this
year, may be celebrated by any priest anywhere in the Catholic world.
This action was angrily attacked by a number of bishops and other
liberal Catholics in the weeks leading up to its promulgation.
Now it may be objected at this point that this occurrence, while
doubtless of interest to Catholics, would have little interest to
those outside of their religion. But in fact, it has attracted angry
denunciations by such as the ADL's Abraham Foxman (admittedly, Mr.
Foxman has been described by his co-religionist, comedian and ordained
rabbi Jackie Mason as "more afraid of a real job than of anti-
Semitism"). Catholics might be tempted to angrily respond that
Foxman's statements upon an internal Church affair are as impudent as
Gentiles attacking elements of the Jewish liturgy that they might find
offensive (such as Yom Kippur's Kol Nidre prayer) would most certainly
be. But such Catholics would be wrong.
The truth is that the Catholic Church is a bellwether for the health
of Western Civilization in general-a sort of canary chanting in the
coal mine of culture. On the one hand, events within the Church cast
their shadow on the rest of the Christian ecclesial bodies. This
author has ventured, for example, into formerly beautiful Anglican and
Lutheran churches, only to find them sacked by their clergy in similar
manner to the depredations suffered by Catholic parishes in the past
four decades. Upon enquiring about the reason for such artistic
purging, he has often been told-"oh, because of Vatican II!" While he
understands that this a misreading of the Council common in Catholic
circles, he has never been able to understand how it could have any
relevance to other denominations.
But there are wider implications as well. When, in 1971, news came out
that the traditional Latin Mass was to be scrapped, a primarily non-
Catholic group of English artists and writers protested to Paul VI:
If some senseless decree were to order the total or partial
destruction of basilicas or cathedrals, then obviously it would be the
educated-whatever their personal beliefs-who would rise up in horror
to oppose such a possibility.
Now the fact is that basilicas and cathedrals were built so as to
celebrate a rite which, until a few months ago, constituted a living
tradition. We are referring to the Roman Catholic Mass. Yet,
according to the latest information in Rome , there is a plan to
obliterate that Mass by the end of the current year.
One of the axioms of contemporary publicity, religious as well as
secular, is that modern man in general, and intellectuals in
particular, have become intolerant of all forms of tradition and are
anxious to suppress them and put something else in their place.
But, like many other affirmations of our publicity machines, this
axiom is false. Today, as in times gone by, educated people are in
the vanguard where recognition of the value of tradition is concerned,
and are the first to raise the alarm when it is threatened.
We are not at this moment considering the religious or spiritual
experience of millions of individuals. The rite in question, in its
magnificent Latin text, has also inspired a host of priceless
achievements in the arts-not only mystical works, but works by poets,
philosophers, musicians, architects, painters and sculptors in all
countries and epochs. Thus, it belongs to universal culture as well
as to churchmen and formal Christians.
In the materialistic and technocratic civilisation that is
increasingly threatening the life of mind and spirit in its original
creative expression-the word-it seems particularly inhuman to deprive
man of word-forms in one of their most grandiose manifestations.
The signatories of this appeal, which is entirely ecumenical and
nonpolitical, have been drawn from every branch of modern culture in
Europe and elsewhere. They wish to call to the attention of the Holy
See, the appalling responsibility it would incur in the history of the
human spirit were it to refuse to allow the Traditional Mass to
survive, even though this survival took place side by side with other
liturgical forms.
Fifty-six of the most prominent and celebrated English writers,
artists, and musicians of the time signed it --- among them Vladimir
Ashkenazy and Yehudi Menuhin (pace Mr. Foxman), Graham Greene, Robert
Graves and Cecil Day-Lewis (onetime poet laureate and father of
Daniel), Iris Murdoch, and, in the end most importantly, Agatha
Christie. The importance of the last signatory lay in the fact that
the then-Pontiff was a devotee of her mysteries, and so granted her
request. The resulting permission for the Old Mass to be continued in
England to some degree has therefore been dubbed the "Agatha Christie
Indult."
What these illustrious folk understood, better than many theologians,
was that the health of the Catholic Church was and is integral to the
health of the West. If our civilization is to withstand its current
slate of internal and external foes-throughout Europe and the Diaspora-
it must regain its hold on the things that first enkindled its spirit.
Restoration of liturgical sanity and unity within the Catholic Church
will inevitably have a beneficial "trickle-down" effect far beyond the
Church's borders. Those who prize the health of the West must welcome
Benedict XVI's action, regardless of their own creed.
Of course, this is only one part of the new Pope's apparent program-
all of which, however, tend to the same ends. His ongoing efforts at
the formation of an Anglican Rite within the Catholic Church bode well
for members of that Communion who are disgusted with their
hierarchies' headlong retreat from Christian orthodoxy and morality.
The Pope's initiatives to shore up the beleaguered Patriarchate of
Constantinople show an authentic desire to move past the hatreds and
bitternesses of the past that have so long sundered East and West.
Recent moves to discipline erring theologians and free the Catholics
of China are very hopeful signs that the long slumber of the post-
Vatican II era is over. With Benedict's encouragement, the Cardinal-
Archbishop of Mexico City has excommunicated the Mayor and City
Council of his town, who have introduced abortion to their bailiwick
(although they seem less capable of policing the streets). This is an
example that-given the caliber of his episcopal appointments- may well
be echoed one day in New York , Boston , or even Washington.
Should the Pope be successful in his attempts to straighten the course
of the Barque of Peter, it will of course be of immense benefit to his
own flock. But more importantly, to the non-Catholic, it will restore
the Church's ability to function as effective a watchdog over the
health of the body politic of the West as ever she did under Pius XI.
But do not be fooled. The viciousness of the attacks of the liberal
media, such as Mr. Foxman, and various Catholic clerics and other such
pundits on the new liturgical decree are being echoed in other
spheres. From Belgium , news has come that homosexual activists have
brought charges against Mgr Andr=E9-Mutien L=E9onard, the Catholic bishop
of Namur , for homophobia. In that country, this is a criminal offence
under the country's 2003 Anti-Discrimination Act.
In an interview last April in the Walloon weekly T=E9l=E9 Moustique, the
bishop is said to have described gays as "abnormal". According to
Michel Graindorge, the activists' lawyer, the bishop intended to
"stigmatize" homosexuals, whose "identity and dignity is debased from
the moment that the bishop considers them to be abnormal." In
Australia, A New South Wales parliamentary committee will investigate
whether Sydney 's George Cardinal Pell was in contempt of parliament
in warning that there would be "consequences" for Catholic members of
the NSW parliament who voted for a bill that would scrap a ban on stem
cell research. The alleged free nations of the West, apparently intent
on suicide, will-should these trends continue-punish Catholic prelates
for doing their duty as they believe Christ has called them to do.
Nor, in the end, will it only be Catholics so threatened, but anyone
who holds to what the West has been, and what it needs to be if it is
to survive.
For such as these, then, any and all of Benedict XVI's efforts at
rebuilding the Catholic ethos should be welcomed, and their success
prayed for. But all of these things can bring little surprise to
students of history. Very often, down through the two millennia of the
Church's history, internal reform has been followed by external
persecution-itself usually the prelude to a period of triumph. In this
light, July 7, 2007, may well be seen in future centuries to be as
momentous a date as September 11, 2001--although, of course, one that
points not toward death but rebirth. Whatever the case, keep your eyes
on Rome.
Charles A. Coulombe is author of Vicars of Christ: A History of the
Popes.
Printer Friendly
Email Article
Email the Editor
Comments
As a complement to the superb scope of Mr. Coulombe's analysis it may
be worth observing that by casting aside the Tridentine rite,
Catholicism left it untouched by the pollution, Catholic and beyond,
of recent decades. Thus leaving aside such mystical strength as
Catholics will ascribe to it, even from a secular perspective there is
in the West today no more vivid a foundational alternative to said
pollution, than the historical Latin Mass.
Posted by Richard Cowden Guido on Jul 10, 2007.
.

User: "dh"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 07:51:05 PM
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote in message
news:1189360186.789706.50640@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts


Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Taki's Top Drawer ^ | July 10, 2007 | Charles Coulombe.


Posted on 08/05/2007 6:56:12 PM PDT by Diago


Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?
Posted by Charles A. Coulombe on July 10, 2007

What a stupid question. Did Jesus conduct services in Latin? The Latin
Mass is perhaps the best sign of how out of touch the Catholic Church can
be.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.

User: "quibbler"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 05:09:23 PM
In article <1189360186.789706.50640@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>,
soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com says...

Islam is the obvious external
threat

Oh, you're such a victim all the time, aren't you. Explain again why
secular Europe, which rejects ChristInsanity, would not reject IsLame
too?
<remainder of your elaborate, conspiratorial, roman crapaholic propaganda
snipped>
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.

User: "Ian"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 02:51:50 PM
On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Certainly not. We only /got/ western civilization with the
reformation.
Ian
.
User: "Peter Jason"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 04:43:14 PM
"Ian" <ian.groups@btinternet.com> wrote in
message
news:1189453910.477063.122650@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western
Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Certainly not. We only /got/ western
civilization with the
reformation.

Ian

Alas, it came with a price. We got
protestants, the French religious wars, the
thirty-year's war and mixed marriages.
.
User: "Smiler"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 11:15:31 PM
"Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:fc4e24$2005$1@otis.netspace.net.au...


"Ian" <ian.groups@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1189453910.477063.122650@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Certainly not. We only /got/ western civilization with the
reformation.

Ian


Alas, it came with a price. We got protestants, the French religious
wars, the thirty-year's war and mixed marriages.

Before the reformation there were NO mixed marriages?
No Jews marrying Moslems, no Moslems marrying Xians and no Xians marrying
Jews?
Learn some history.
Smiler,
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
.
User: "VtSkier"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 11 Sep 2007 07:26:47 AM
Smiler wrote:

"Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:fc4e24$2005$1@otis.netspace.net.au...

"Ian" <ian.groups@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1189453910.477063.122650@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Certainly not. We only /got/ western civilization with the
reformation.

Ian

Alas, it came with a price. We got protestants, the French religious
wars, the thirty-year's war and mixed marriages.


Before the reformation there were NO mixed marriages?
No Jews marrying Moslems, no Moslems marrying Xians and no Xians marrying
Jews?

Learn some history.

Smiler,
The godless one
a.a.# 2279

Uhm, perhaps true that sanctioned marriages did not
exist between people of different faiths before the
the reformation. HOWEVER, this does not mean that
there wasn't any genetic mixing. Besides, in the
statement just above yours, the poster is referring
to events AFTER the reformation.
.
User: "Smiler"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 11 Sep 2007 05:37:39 PM
"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:5knfsiF4juhfU1@mid.individual.net...

Smiler wrote:

"Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:fc4e24$2005$1@otis.netspace.net.au...

"Ian" <ian.groups@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1189453910.477063.122650@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Certainly not. We only /got/ western civilization with the
reformation.

Ian

Alas, it came with a price. We got protestants, the French religious
wars, the thirty-year's war and mixed marriages.


Before the reformation there were NO mixed marriages?
No Jews marrying Moslems, no Moslems marrying Xians and no Xians marrying
Jews?

Learn some history.

Smiler,
The godless one
a.a.# 2279


Uhm, perhaps true that sanctioned marriages did not
exist between people of different faiths before the
the reformation. HOWEVER, this does not mean that
there wasn't any genetic mixing. Besides, in the
statement just above yours, the poster is referring
to events AFTER the reformation.

Read for comprehension.
He was stating that the reformation brought mixed marriages, I was
disagreeing with him.
The reformation wasn't the beginning of mixed marriages, as they existed
*before* the reformation.
Smiler,
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 12 Sep 2007 02:56:42 PM
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:37:39 GMT, "Smiler" <Smiler@Joe.King.com>
wrote:

Read for comprehension.
He was stating that the reformation brought mixed marriages, I was
disagreeing with him.
The reformation wasn't the beginning of mixed marriages, as they existed
*before* the reformation.

Just not Catholic-Protestant marriages. :)
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence then comes evil?
-Epicurus, 3rd c. BCE
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
User: "Smiler"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 12 Sep 2007 06:08:26 PM
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:c3hge358b31so6vqlta3ibkoihuj6g75oq@4ax.com...

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:37:39 GMT, "Smiler" <Smiler@Joe.King.com>
wrote:

Read for comprehension.
He was stating that the reformation brought mixed marriages, I was
disagreeing with him.
The reformation wasn't the beginning of mixed marriages, as they existed
*before* the reformation.


Just not Catholic-Protestant marriages. :)

They're the only ones the Xers call 'mixed'!
In my short list of other religions that intermarried, I forgot athiests,
pagans, hindus, etc., etc.
Smiler,
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 12 Sep 2007 09:04:04 PM
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:08:26 GMT, "Smiler" <Smiler@Joe.King.com>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:c3hge358b31so6vqlta3ibkoihuj6g75oq@4ax.com...

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:37:39 GMT, "Smiler" <Smiler@Joe.King.com>
wrote:

Read for comprehension.
He was stating that the reformation brought mixed marriages, I was
disagreeing with him.
The reformation wasn't the beginning of mixed marriages, as they existed
*before* the reformation.


Just not Catholic-Protestant marriages. :)


They're the only ones the Xers call 'mixed'!
In my short list of other religions that intermarried, I forgot athiests,
pagans, hindus, etc., etc.

You also forgot racially mixed, societally mixed, nationally mixed ...
About the only marriage that's completely not mixed would be identical
twins.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence then comes evil?
-Epicurus, 3rd c. BCE
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.






User: "brique"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 11:31:23 PM
Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:fc4e24$2005$1@otis.netspace.net.au...


"Ian" <ian.groups@btinternet.com> wrote in
message
news:1189453910.477063.122650@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western
Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Certainly not. We only /got/ western
civilization with the
reformation.

Ian


Alas, it came with a price. We got
protestants, the French religious wars, the
thirty-year's war and mixed marriages.

Mixed marriages ? Good Og, you mean men _and_ women?....



.
User: "Peter Jason"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 11 Sep 2007 12:43:45 AM
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote in
message
news:1189485256.5744.0@proxy01.news.clara.net...


Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote in
message
news:fc4e24$2005$1@otis.netspace.net.au...


"Ian" <ian.groups@btinternet.com> wrote in
message
news:1189453910.477063.122650@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western
Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Certainly not. We only /got/ western
civilization with the
reformation.

Ian


Alas, it came with a price. We got
protestants, the French religious wars,
the
thirty-year's war and mixed marriages.


Mixed marriages ? Good Og, you mean men
_and_ women?....

An abomination, isn't it? God knows what
goes on after dark!
.



User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 10:25:24 PM
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:51:50 -0700, Ian <ian.groups@btinternet.com>
wrote:

On 9 Sep, 18:49, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Certainly not. We only /got/ western civilization with the
reformation.

Only in Europe. On the other side of the pond we're still waiting for
it.
.


User: "jcon"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 02:14:45 PM
On Sep 9, 12:49 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Yes. When our enemies attack, we'll bore them into submission.
-jc
.

User: "Hatter"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 11 Sep 2007 11:52:09 AM
On Sep 9, 1:49 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Let see it restore one limb as a test before entrusting it to save all
of western civilization. Before that, it is like entrusting a random
faith healer in Tennesee to protect the US borders.
Hatter
.

User: "Conspiracy of Doves"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 02:10:47 PM
On Sep 9, 1:49 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

No
.

User: "V"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 06:32:38 PM
On Sep 9, 1:49 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Taki's Top Drawer ^ | July 10, 2007 | Charles Coulombe.

Posted on 08/05/2007 6:56:12 PM PDT by Diago

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?
Posted by Charles A. Coulombe on July 10, 2007

Back during the Roaring '20s, a then-contemporary witticism had it
that four institutions would prevent the takeover of Europe by
Communism: the German General Staff, the British House of Lords, the
Academie Fran=E7aise, and the Holy See. Eighty years have brought many
changes, to be sure. On the one hand, Communism is as unlikely to
remerge in Europe as Fascism or Nazism. But on the other, the four
mentioned institutions have also undergone alteration. The German
General Staff was corrupted by Hitler, and destroyed by the allies;
the House of Lords has suffered the same fate (albeit in reverse
order) at the hands of the late Tony Blair. The cultural supremacy of
English has diminished the relevance and importance of the Academie
severely: as one French friend told me, "it would not be so terrible
for the language of Moliere to be eclipsed by that of Shakespeare; but
by that of Rod McKuen?" A horrible fate for us all, to be sure.

Moreover, if Communism has departed for the happy hunting ground of
evil philosophies, the civilization of the West has acquired other
enemies, unthinkable in the Flapper age. Islam is the obvious external
threat-not merely in terms of terrorism and the like, but by a
seemingly inexorable birth-rate within the Mother Continent herself.
This latter development is matched by a corresponding fall in the
fertility of the native population, itself bound up with a sickness-of-
self on the part of that same population. To a great degree, this is
the result of a second, internal enemy: a secularism that hates all
that Europe, North America, and Australasia once were, and that would
replace it with-well, that's just it. It is a state of mind that
cannot build; it can only destroy. Worse, it is the dominant mindset
among those of the Western elites who belong to that age-group called
the "Baby Boomers" in America , and the "Generation of '68" in Europe.
Despite the rapid onset of old age, they cling to the rebelliousness
of their youth as though it were a mystic talisman, protecting them
from Father Time. All that made the West strong, in culture,
governance, politics, and most assuredly in religion, is intolerable
to them. But if the identities of the nations they manage are
destroyed from above and within, how can those countries possibly
survive in the long run?

The one remaining member of the quartet earlier mentioned is the Holy
See. But it too is not what it was when Pius XI occupied St. Peter's
Throne. The horrors of World War II damaged the self-confidence in the
Catholic ethos of the generation of clerics who lived through them.
This would play a big part in the events of Vatican II and its
aftermath. However one wishes to view those occurrences, the fact
remains that by 1970, the Church appeared to be in an acute state of
what Paul VI called "auto-demolition." Although the Holy See under
John Paul II contributed heavily to the fall of the Soviet Union , and
its role in the diplomatic world expanded, the Church's ability to
counter the self-destructive tendencies in Western Culture became
severely limited. Supposedly Catholic legislators throughout the West
(even including such clerics as Congressman Robert Drinan, S.J.)
joined gleefully in wrecking the moral and political heritage of
centuries. Bishops themselves often quietly acquiesced in this,
refusing to discipline such members of their flock as, say, Teddy
Kennedy, for their anti-Catholic voting patterns. This was, however,
emblematic of said prelates' attempts to purge the Church of every
vestige of the Catholic past.

Nowhere were these attempts more obvious than with the liturgy, the
center of the Catholic religion. Most particularly, the classical form
of the Catholic Mass and various other Sacraments was virtually
banished from almost every nook of Christendom. With it went much of
the distinctive Catholic identity-so much a part of the very
foundation of Western culture. As the Harvard historian Christopher
Dawson famously remarked, culture flows from "cult," or worship; when
forces internal or external root out the forms or content of religious
practice in a civilization, they have essentially cut out its heart--
the brain will follow.

After some 36 years of liturgical controversy, Pope Benedict XVI, on
Saturday, July 7, 2007, in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, has
liberated the ancient Roman liturgy, which, after September 14 of this
year, may be celebrated by any priest anywhere in the Catholic world.
This action was angrily attacked by a number of bishops and other
liberal Catholics in the weeks leading up to its promulgation.

Now it may be objected at this point that this occurrence, while
doubtless of interest to Catholics, would have little interest to
those outside of their religion. But in fact, it has attracted angry
denunciations by such as the ADL's Abraham Foxman (admittedly, Mr.
Foxman has been described by his co-religionist, comedian and ordained
rabbi Jackie Mason as "more afraid of a real job than of anti-
Semitism"). Catholics might be tempted to angrily respond that
Foxman's statements upon an internal Church affair are as impudent as
Gentiles attacking elements of the Jewish liturgy that they might find
offensive (such as Yom Kippur's Kol Nidre prayer) would most certainly
be. But such Catholics would be wrong.

The truth is that the Catholic Church is a bellwether for the health
of Western Civilization in general-a sort of canary chanting in the
coal mine of culture. On the one hand, events within the Church cast
their shadow on the rest of the Christian ecclesial bodies. This
author has ventured, for example, into formerly beautiful Anglican and
Lutheran churches, only to find them sacked by their clergy in similar
manner to the depredations suffered by Catholic parishes in the past
four decades. Upon enquiring about the reason for such artistic
purging, he has often been told-"oh, because of Vatican II!" While he
understands that this a misreading of the Council common in Catholic
circles, he has never been able to understand how it could have any
relevance to other denominations.

But there are wider implications as well. When, in 1971, news came out
that the traditional Latin Mass was to be scrapped, a primarily non-
Catholic group of English artists and writers protested to Paul VI:

If some senseless decree were to order the total or partial
destruction of basilicas or cathedrals, then obviously it would be the
educated-whatever their personal beliefs-who would rise up in horror
to oppose such a possibility.

Now the fact is that basilicas and cathedrals were built so as to
celebrate a rite which, until a few months ago, constituted a living
tradition. We are referring to the Roman Catholic Mass. Yet,
according to the latest information in Rome , there is a plan to
obliterate that Mass by the end of the current year.

One of the axioms of contemporary publicity, religious as well as
secular, is that modern man in general, and intellectuals in
particular, have become intolerant of all forms of tradition and are
anxious to suppress them and put something else in their place.

But, like many other affirmations of our publicity machines, this
axiom is false. Today, as in times gone by, educated people are in
the vanguard where recognition of the value of tradition is concerned,
and are the first to raise the alarm when it is threatened.

We are not at this moment considering the religious or spiritual
experience of millions of individuals. The rite in question, in its
magnificent Latin text, has also inspired a host of priceless
achievements in the arts-not only mystical works, but works by poets,
philosophers, musicians, architects, painters and sculptors in all
countries and epochs. Thus, it belongs to universal culture as well
as to churchmen and formal Christians.

In the materialistic and technocratic civilisation that is
increasingly threatening the life of mind and spirit in its original
creative expression-the word-it seems particularly inhuman to deprive
man of word-forms in one of their most grandiose manifestations.

The signatories of this appeal, which is entirely ecumenical and
nonpolitical, have been drawn from every branch of modern culture in
Europe and elsewhere. They wish to call to the attention of the Holy
See, the appalling responsibility it would incur in the history of the
human spirit were it to refuse to allow the Traditional Mass to
survive, even though this survival took place side by side with other
liturgical forms.

Fifty-six of the most prominent and celebrated English writers,
artists, and musicians of the time signed it --- among them Vladimir
Ashkenazy and Yehudi Menuhin (pace Mr. Foxman), Graham Greene, Robert
Graves and Cecil Day-Lewis (onetime poet laureate and father of
Daniel), Iris Murdoch, and, in the end most importantly, Agatha
Christie. The importance of the last signatory lay in the fact that
the then-Pontiff was a devotee of her mysteries, and so granted her
request. The resulting permission for the Old Mass to be continued in
England to some degree has therefore been dubbed the "Agatha Christie
Indult."

What these illustrious folk understood, better than many theologians,
was that the health of the Catholic Church was and is integral to the
health of the West. If our civilization is to withstand its current
slate of internal and external foes-throughout Europe and the Diaspora-
it must regain its hold on the things that first enkindled its spirit.
Restoration of liturgical sanity and unity within the Catholic Church
will inevitably have a beneficial "trickle-down" effect far beyond the
Church's borders. ...

read more =BB

Latin prayers?
Is that the missing link to salvation?
Religion is all man made, so whether it is Latin or English it is just
another mind concentration for man to occupy himself with.
The inability to understand as well as the need to understand says it
all about man made religion.
Hermeneutics is a major problem with religious thought.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics
There is such debate and disagreement as to what the scriptures really
mean and the consequences of a 'bad' interpretation will mean
everlasting torture and pain in hell? When deciphering code and
hidden meanings becomes a life or death proposition, one has to wonder
about a God that supposedly put his name on such a muddled up
document. I can also tell you that destroying another being and
causing them 'pain and torturing for eternity' will yield the provider
of that pain and torture ZERO peace. This concept of pain, eternal
hell and karma all smacks of the human touch of 'fear based' religious
thought. We can see it in a quote from a Christian list member here:
JesusForgiveThem writes:
"Do you believe in eternal suffering? I surely would hate for anyone
to consciously chose to spend an eternity in hell over some foolish
pride that they can't get over ... as opposed to opening your heart to
Jesus and see what he has to offer before writing Him off completely."
This discussion of eternal suffering that JesusForgiveThem brings up
leads us to another problem. Which divinely inspired document does one
follow as there are numerous books... all claiming to the word of God?
And all these documents conflict with each other? It is with this
overlap of these documents that are in agreement that I seek to find
peace with. And anything that conflicts or cannot be substantiated and
does not pass my empirical tests I have to let it go as 'man's ego'
being injected into the equation. If God wishes to make things clear
and without the need for hermeneutics then I am all ears. But until
that time, we must each do the best we can and come to peace with this
subject for ourselves.
But this problem of hermeneutics is not limited solely to the study of
monotheism. It also encompasses the history of Buddhist thought as
well. A favorite saying of the Mahayana is that of using 'skillful
means' to achieve ones goal. Skillful Means =3D Put a Spin On It =3D LIE.
Now, I am not just singling out the Mahayana as the bad boys. Lies and
imperfections are widespread throughout all spiritual thought that was
ever created my man. Man is imperfect and as such all his religious
thought it also imperfect. But within these imperfections there are
also many perfection's, as seldom is a thing all good or all bad.
With my own spiritual quest I have evolved into an agnostic
freethinker. From the tradition of religion telling massive lies
intermingled with some truths (yes the spiritual traditions of the
world contain some truth) I have learned to not believe anything that
requires faith and cannot be tested and applied as a universal law to
the whole of society. I apply this form of thought to all my spiritual
traditions I draw from whether it be monotheism to Buddhism or Taoism.
Now some of these spiritual truths are 'lesser truths' and subjective
in nature. The application of such relative truth is more or less
unimportant and up to the likes or dislikes of the individual. But the
larger truths that are universal in nature are what I try to
distinguish and then follow. If a concept is not 'crystal clear' and
requires much speculation, I let it go. We can see what has happened
in religious history when man gets too 'enthused' about
interpretation. I do not wish to follow in those footsteps.
How do we know we have made an honest effort at this decoding
business? For one, we do not fool with decoding, we just think and
test for truth. Number two, we come to peace by giving it the 'hell
test.' We work towards moral and ethical principles and develop what
is called a 'good heart' which also aligns us magically with the
empirical basics of religious thought in the various documents
attributed to be the word of God. If we are successful at this quest
and ethically and morally sound, when it comes time to die we can be
at peace knowing we have done our best in this area. And if we find
out that there is a hell and the entity 'claiming to be God' (for lack
of a better name) has domed us to hell from 'not decoding it right'
even with our best efforts, we can be at peace with knowing God is an
unjust God and not a real God but an alien 'god bully' of sorts.
And when it comes to dying and the title 'loving God', we as imperfect
humans that strive to develop a good heart will contain infinity more
of that true 'Godly nature' that this 'alien god bully' claming to be
God that seeks to torture those that have worked along spiritual lines
to be good people. This is the 'hell test' in a nutshell - you are at
peace with your actions and you are authentic as well about your life.
When you align Right Actions + Authenticity this equals PEACE - Just
as Socrates told his accusers when they condemned him to death.
Socrates had no fear of evil in this life or after death:
"Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a
truth - that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after
death."
As I write this post, I am reminded of aliens in an old "Superman"
movies that came to earth to tell us to 'bow down' to them or else?
Yes, the aliens in the movie had great powers but they were not
God...they were just gods to us humans. Seek truth, seek inner peace,
seek the development of a good heart and put your best efforts into
finding it and you too can be at peace with this subject. Of course,
if one has never found inner peace all that I am telling you is
unbelievable to you? Always remember...a wise mans knows what he says
and a fool can only say what he knows. Learn to say what you know, and
also know right from wrong actions and you can be at peace with your
life or any life to come as well.
One last point. If you look at the name of the Christian I quoted
above it is JesusForgiveThem it tells an interesting story in itself.
If a God needs to be told by JesusForgiveThem or any other of us
humans what to do, what is right or wrong and we can sway an
omnipotent and perfect God just by begging...then that is one scary
God. For we can see what has happened on earth when human demigods
have been in power.
See:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html
You see, the truth stands on it own and does not need massaging for it
to be true. To get at the truth, all we need is test through practical
application.
We can even 'Test God' though such means if you can detach your 'blind
faith' and replace it with a 'rational mind' for a moment.
I'm sure God wont mind if you ask a few question? Would God send you
to hell for inquiring as to his goodness?
Would you send another to everlasting torture just for asking a
question?
How much more good is God than you or I, so don't be worried if your
true vision of God is as you imagine God to be...all loving..all good.
We can ask the question Would the 'ideal' of a perfect, all loving God
approve of the Hebrew and Christian God Yahweh?
No, the ideal of God would not approve of God if the old testament is
a true accounting of Yahweh. The evidence shows that the God of the
monotheists as written in the bible is a man made story, whether it is
the story of Jesus or the God Yahweh of the Hebrews.
I write this after being a Catholic for 50+ years. What caused my
change in heart about God? Was it God's refusal to answer a self
centered prayer...No. Was it all the evil in the world...No. My change
in heart with my belief in God came from 'real study' of the dogma and
the books claimed to be the written words of God with a desire to get
closer to God. But, the more I studied, the further from God my
studies took me. But this is only a by product of the study of truth,
for if the study leads to a certain direction one must follow it, if
one is truth based. And if one is not truth based one makes up fantasy
and excuses and lives a delusional life.
If we look at logical and philosophical arguments for God they add up
to zero as each one of these arguments can be argued for or against
God
Ontological Argument +
Ontological Argument (--)
Cosmological Argument +
Cosmological Argument (--)
Teleological Argument +
Teleological Argument (--)
-----------------------------------------
Total =3D ZERO
As such, we need to look deeper into what the various religions of the
monotheist say to find the truth. There are four books claiming to be
the word of God. they are the Old Testament, New Testament, Qur'an and
the Book of Mormon. (OT, NT, Q and BOM) All these books conflict, yet
all claim to be the perfect word of God? Why doesn't God make clear
which one of these books to follow so there is no misunderstanding?
After all, a mistake in direction yield everlasting torture in hell?
Since God wont answer, we will have to answer for God by asking some
questions to get at the truth that God was invented by man. In short
we will judge God by the ideals of God. Then we can see clearly these
words of God were not written by an all perfect and all loving, all
good God but were just written by men claiming to be God.
Some religious advocates say it is presumptuous of anyone to 'judge'
God. But, such persons also judge God when they say God is good? In
order to judge something good it must still be judged? From my
studies, I have judged God as a creation or fantasy of man's mind and
a God that would refuse to tell the direction for a person to take and
then take joy in torturing that person for a mistake that the person
could not avoid is definitely bad.
God was no always so silent with direction. If we go back to the OT we
can see God communicated extensively with the Hebrews. God directed
them specifically with how to design and build things and how to
worship him through burnt offerings and penance. God was very detailed
with his directions about unclean women during menses and how the
Hebrews should keep their slaves. All quotes courtesy of http://www.evilbib=
le.com/
(BTW, they banned me from their forums...so much for freethinkers.)
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that
the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the
slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the
slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21
God approving of slavery? God not approving of the Egyptians keeping
slaves yet is OK for the Hebrews to keep slaves? Again not a perfect
God. If we read further we will see God very bigoted and condemning of
all other nationalities except his chosen people the Hebrews. What
makes the world think such a bigoted God would accept them when God
had such hatred for others he supposedly created?
If we go to more modern times and the Christian dogma where God
offered his son to be tortured and killed in order for God to forgive
our sins? What do we do when we forgive another? Do we kill our son or
daughter or just forgive? How much more a perfect God could have just
forgiven us without killing his son? But God seemed to emphasize the
killing children in his words to his faithful as we can see in these
OT quotes.
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the
city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy;
have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and
little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your
task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy
leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards
with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the
city and did as they were told." Ezekiel 9:5-7
"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will
die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even
if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It
will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have
watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now
Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what
should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't
give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their
wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive
them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no
more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are
stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.
And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."
Hosea 9:11-16
"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his
father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the
father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town.
They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and
refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the
town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil
from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid."
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
What happened to this vocal God that seemed to die with the authors
of the Old Testament, for no one ever hears a peep from God? Did God
die with the writers? BTW, if God was a perfect designer, should he
have not made women 'unclean' and not have menses and that way God
could have saved some breath and cut his 600+ commandants to the
Hebrew down by one? See: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/otcomm.htm
God even commanded the people how to bake bread, (with human
excrement) discriminate against the handicapped, kill the faithful of
other religions and how much money to pay to rape young women.
Each day prepare your bread as you would barley cakes. While all the
people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as
fuel and then eat the bread. For this is what the LORD says: "Israel
will eat defiled bread in the Gentile lands, where I will banish
them!" Then I said, "O Sovereign LORD, must I be defiled by using
human dung? For I have never been defiled before. From the time I was
a child until now I have never eaten any animal that died of sickness
or that I found dead. And I have never eaten any of the animals that
our laws forbid." "All right," the LORD said. "You may bake your
bread with cow dung instead of human dung." Ezekiel 4:12-15
"No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut
off may be admitted into the community of the Lord." Deuteronomy
23:2
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not
engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he
must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never
be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved
wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other
gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other
nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the
other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon
him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the
first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with
you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you
astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of
Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall
fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." Deuteronomy
13:7-12
Yes, the writers for God's word will be able to show you how the God
they claim to be perfect is not perfect and just an extension of
imperfect man's mind. If you read the bible with an open mind that is
logical and rational you will see this for yourself. It is only when
we make excuses for God that God is relieved from being a true God.
In the OT it says God is a 'jealous God' and requires worship.
"You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in
the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the
earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the
Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their
father's wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the
third and fourth generation" Exodus 20:4-5
Once someone 'requires' anything outside themselves the persons peace
will be disturbed. Yet the popular belief that God is perfect...the
two (jealousy and perfection) don't go together. In addition such a
God would not pass the peace test. If the God did not receive worship
the God's peace would be disturbed from having demands and not getting
those demands fulfilled. Then the God would have its peace disturbed
even further by torturing the person for everlasting eternity since
that person did not provide the worship the God demanded. Does all
this smack of a perfect being, perfectly at peace or just man
impersonating God
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D133.0
You see, many people do with religion and their religious fixations
the same as the compulsive gambler does with their fantasy.
Excerpt From: Gamblers Anonymous pamphlet "The dream world of a
compulsive gambler." A lot of time is spent creating images of great
and wonderful things they are going to do as soon as they make "the
big win."... No one can convince them that their great schemes will
not come true. They believe they will, for without this dream world,
life for them would not be tolerable.
The truth is that which does not change. Man made religion is always
changing. This phenomena of putting a spin on truth goes back to the
earliest formations of the church when it was voted on by presumptuous
individuals as to how to describe God and the trinity. You see it was
all voted on and the proponent that had the 'best spin' on it got the
credit for Nicene Creed. But in reality no one has a clew about this
subject. Want a modern day example of such spiritual sickness, spin
and lies?
"Roman Catholic Church Considers Abolishing Limbo Theory" A commission
that met at the Vatican last week is expected to recommend to Pope
Benedict XVI that the teaching of limbo be dropped. The Roman Catholic
Church may abolish the concept of limbo - the place some Catholics
believe the spirit of babies go if they die before being baptized
Snip from: http://www.christianpost.com/article/20051209/22492.htm
But it is impossible to have a rational discussion with most religious
devotees when they insist on irrationality as their first line of
defense. We are rational beings, logical beings, yet belief in God can
only come about through irrational, non logical thought. Would a God
that created rational, logical beings require such beings to follow
irrational fantasy in order to believe in him? An example? While
discussing fossils and ancient coal with a Christian he claimed that
fossils and ancient coal are not really old and 'planted by the devil'
to trick people from believing in God? this also recalls the book of
Enoch, a book that was left out of the bible by the powers that
decided what went into it when it was first formed. This book
described many fantastic claims about how Eve was tricked by the devil
masquerading as an angel. Would God create such subterfuge as planted
fake fossils in order to trick his loved ones only to condom them to
burning and torture for all eternity in hell because they cannot find
out the rational and logical truth? Yes, such an unjust God would if
your God is that of a sickly, delusional, religious devotee that
believe is such fantasy.
Even when we discuss the story of Jesus, is it rational for God to
have to kill his only begotten son in order to forgive us? What do we
do when we forgive another? Do we kill our mother, son or daughter in
order to forgive another person? Yet, Christians cling to this
fantasy. Jesus was never born on December 25 and in fact there is no
evidence Jesus was ever born at all. Christians adopted Christmas from
the pagan December 25 holiday in order to promote their own agenda,
just as they did with Halloween.
For further discussion of the Jesus myth see:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/books/jesusmysteries.html
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/myth.html
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/fabrication.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth
http://home.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/7748/106446
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s1517078.htm
http://www.atheist-community.org/library/articles/read.php?id=3D700
http://www.christianorigins.com/goguel/
http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm
http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/jesusmyth.html
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jesus.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/historicus/jesus.html
http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/creator/jesusmyth.htm
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/origins_of_christianity.htm
"Theology is a superstition - Humanity is a religion" - Robert G.
Ingersol
BTW, what does work if all religion is created man made fantasy?
Just dropping God is not the answer for inner peace as this forum is
proof positive of that. With the multitude of spiritually sick
individuals here we can see humans need something in their life to
guide them to peace...at least it is so within our modern society of
sick complexities Neil.
See my previous discussion of this topic of what does work:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D4.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
.

User: "Codebreaker"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 03:35:41 PM
On Sep 9, 1:49 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1876865/posts

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Taki's Top Drawer ^ | July 10, 2007 | Charles Coulombe.

Posted on 08/05/2007 6:56:12 PM PDT by Diago

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?
Posted by Charles A. Coulombe on July 10, 2007

Back during the Roaring '20s, a then-contemporary witticism had it
that four institutions would prevent the takeover of Europe by
Communism: the German General Staff, the British House of Lords, the
Academie Fran=E7aise, and the Holy See. Eighty years have brought many
changes, to be sure. On the one hand, Communism is as unlikely to
remerge in Europe as Fascism or Nazism. But on the other, the four
mentioned institutions have also undergone alteration. The German
General Staff was corrupted by Hitler, and destroyed by the allies;
the House of Lords has suffered the same fate (albeit in reverse
order) at the hands of the late Tony Blair. The cultural supremacy of
English has diminished the relevance and importance of the Academie
severely: as one French friend told me, "it would not be so terrible
for the language of Moliere to be eclipsed by that of Shakespeare; but
by that of Rod McKuen?" A horrible fate for us all, to be sure.

Moreover, if Communism has departed for the happy hunting ground of
evil philosophies, the civilization of the West has acquired other
enemies, unthinkable in the Flapper age. Islam is the obvious external
threat-not merely in terms of terrorism and the like, but by a
seemingly inexorable birth-rate within the Mother Continent herself.
This latter development is matched by a corresponding fall in the
fertility of the native population, itself bound up with a sickness-of-
self on the part of that same population. To a great degree, this is
the result of a second, internal enemy: a secularism that hates all
that Europe, North America, and Australasia once were, and that would
replace it with-well, that's just it. It is a state of mind that
cannot build; it can only destroy. Worse, it is the dominant mindset
among those of the Western elites who belong to that age-group called
the "Baby Boomers" in America , and the "Generation of '68" in Europe.
Despite the rapid onset of old age, they cling to the rebelliousness
of their youth as though it were a mystic talisman, protecting them
from Father Time. All that made the West strong, in culture,
governance, politics, and most assuredly in religion, is intolerable
to them. But if the identities of the nations they manage are
destroyed from above and within, how can those countries possibly
survive in the long run?

The one remaining member of the quartet earlier mentioned is the Holy
See. But it too is not what it was when Pius XI occupied St. Peter's
Throne. The horrors of World War II damaged the self-confidence in the
Catholic ethos of the generation of clerics who lived through them.
This would play a big part in the events of Vatican II and its
aftermath. However one wishes to view those occurrences, the fact
remains that by 1970, the Church appeared to be in an acute state of
what Paul VI called "auto-demolition." Although the Holy See under
John Paul II contributed heavily to the fall of the Soviet Union , and
its role in the diplomatic world expanded, the Church's ability to
counter the self-destructive tendencies in Western Culture became
severely limited. Supposedly Catholic legislators throughout the West
(even including such clerics as Congressman Robert Drinan, S.J.)
joined gleefully in wrecking the moral and political heritage of
centuries. Bishops themselves often quietly acquiesced in this,
refusing to discipline such members of their flock as, say, Teddy
Kennedy, for their anti-Catholic voting patterns. This was, however,
emblematic of said prelates' attempts to purge the Church of every
vestige of the Catholic past.

Nowhere were these attempts more obvious than with the liturgy, the
center of the Catholic religion. Most particularly, the classical form
of the Catholic Mass and various other Sacraments was virtually
banished from almost every nook of Christendom. With it went much of
the distinctive Catholic identity-so much a part of the very
foundation of Western culture. As the Harvard historian Christopher
Dawson famously remarked, culture flows from "cult," or worship; when
forces internal or external root out the forms or content of religious
practice in a civilization, they have essentially cut out its heart--
the brain will follow.

After some 36 years of liturgical controversy, Pope Benedict XVI, on
Saturday, July 7, 2007, in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, has
liberated the ancient Roman liturgy, which, after September 14 of this
year, may be celebrated by any priest anywhere in the Catholic world.
This action was angrily attacked by a number of bishops and other
liberal Catholics in the weeks leading up to its promulgation.

Now it may be objected at this point that this occurrence, while
doubtless of interest to Catholics, would have little interest to
those outside of their religion. But in fact, it has attracted angry
denunciations by such as the ADL's Abraham Foxman (admittedly, Mr.
Foxman has been described by his co-religionist, comedian and ordained
rabbi Jackie Mason as "more afraid of a real job than of anti-
Semitism"). Catholics might be tempted to angrily respond that
Foxman's statements upon an internal Church affair are as impudent as
Gentiles attacking elements of the Jewish liturgy that they might find
offensive (such as Yom Kippur's Kol Nidre prayer) would most certainly
be. But such Catholics would be wrong.

The truth is that the Catholic Church is a bellwether for the health
of Western Civilization in general-a sort of canary chanting in the
coal mine of culture. On the one hand, events within the Church cast
their shadow on the rest of the Christian ecclesial bodies. This
author has ventured, for example, into formerly beautiful Anglican and
Lutheran churches, only to find them sacked by their clergy in similar
manner to the depredations suffered by Catholic parishes in the past
four decades. Upon enquiring about the reason for such artistic
purging, he has often been told-"oh, because of Vatican II!" While he
understands that this a misreading of the Council common in Catholic
circles, he has never been able to understand how it could have any
relevance to other denominations.

But there are wider implications as well. When, in 1971, news came out
that the traditional Latin Mass was to be scrapped, a primarily non-
Catholic group of English artists and writers protested to Paul VI:

If some senseless decree were to order the total or partial
destruction of basilicas or cathedrals, then obviously it would be the
educated-whatever their personal beliefs-who would rise up in horror
to oppose such a possibility.

Now the fact is that basilicas and cathedrals were built so as to
celebrate a rite which, until a few months ago, constituted a living
tradition. We are referring to the Roman Catholic Mass. Yet,
according to the latest information in Rome , there is a plan to
obliterate that Mass by the end of the current year.

One of the axioms of contemporary publicity, religious as well as
secular, is that modern man in general, and intellectuals in
particular, have become intolerant of all forms of tradition and are
anxious to suppress them and put something else in their place.

But, like many other affirmations of our publicity machines, this
axiom is false. Today, as in times gone by, educated people are in
the vanguard where recognition of the value of tradition is concerned,
and are the first to raise the alarm when it is threatened.

We are not at this moment considering the religious or spiritual
experience of millions of individuals. The rite in question, in its
magnificent Latin text, has also inspired a host of priceless
achievements in the arts-not only mystical works, but works by poets,
philosophers, musicians, architects, painters and sculptors in all
countries and epochs. Thus, it belongs to universal culture as well
as to churchmen and formal Christians.

In the materialistic and technocratic civilisation that is
increasingly threatening the life of mind and spirit in its original
creative expression-the word-it seems particularly inhuman to deprive
man of word-forms in one of their most grandiose manifestations.

The signatories of this appeal, which is entirely ecumenical and
nonpolitical, have been drawn from every branch of modern culture in
Europe and elsewhere. They wish to call to the attention of the Holy
See, the appalling responsibility it would incur in the history of the
human spirit were it to refuse to allow the Traditional Mass to
survive, even though this survival took place side by side with other
liturgical forms.

Fifty-six of the most prominent and celebrated English writers,
artists, and musicians of the time signed it --- among them Vladimir
Ashkenazy and Yehudi Menuhin (pace Mr. Foxman), Graham Greene, Robert
Graves and Cecil Day-Lewis (onetime poet laureate and father of
Daniel), Iris Murdoch, and, in the end most importantly, Agatha
Christie. The importance of the last signatory lay in the fact that
the then-Pontiff was a devotee of her mysteries, and so granted her
request. The resulting permission for the Old Mass to be continued in
England to some degree has therefore been dubbed the "Agatha Christie
Indult."

What these illustrious folk understood, better than many theologians,
was that the health of the Catholic Church was and is integral to the
health of the West. If our civilization is to withstand its current
slate of internal and external foes-throughout Europe and the Diaspora-
it must regain its hold on the things that first enkindled its spirit.
Restoration of liturgical sanity and unity within the Catholic Church
will inevitably have a beneficial "trickle-down" effect far beyond the
Church's borders. Those who prize the health of the West must welcome
Benedict XVI's action, regardless of their own creed.

Of course, this is only one part of the new Pope's apparent program-
all of which, however, tend to the same ends. His ongoing efforts at
the formation of an Anglican Rite within the Catholic Church bode well
for members of that Communion who are disgusted with their
hierarchies' headlong retreat from Christian orthodoxy and morality.
The Pope's initiatives to shore up the beleaguered Patriarchate of
Constantinople show an authentic desire to move past the hatreds and
bitternesses of the past that have so long sundered East and West.
Recent moves to discipline erring theologians and free the Catholics
of China are very hopeful signs that the long slumber of the post-
Vatican II era is over. With Benedict's encouragement, the Cardinal-
Archbishop of Mexico City has excommunicated the Mayor and City
Council of his town, who have introduced abortion to their bailiwick
(although they seem less capable of policing the streets). This is an
example that-given the caliber of his episcopal appointments- may well
be echoed one day in New York , Boston , or even Washington.

Should the Pope be successful in his attempts to straighten the course
of the Barque of Peter, it will of course be of immense benefit to his
own flock. But more importantly, to the non-Catholic, it will restore
the Church's ability to function as effective a watchdog over the
health of the body politic of the West as ever she did under Pius XI.

But do not be fooled. The viciousness of the attacks of the liberal
media, such as Mr. Foxman, and various Catholic clerics and other such
pundits on the new liturgical decree are being echoed in other
spheres. From Belgium , news has come that homosexual activists have
brought charges against Mgr Andr=E9-Mutien L=E9onard, the Catholic bishop
of Namur , for homophobia. In that country, this is a criminal offence
under the country's 2003 Anti-Discrimination Act.

In an interview last April in the Walloon weekly T=E9l=E9 Moustique, the
bishop is said to have described gays as "abnormal". According to
Michel Graindorge, the activists' lawyer, the bishop intended to
"stigmatize" homosexuals, whose "identity and dignity is debased from
the moment that the bishop considers them to be abnormal." In
Australia, A New South Wales parliamentary committee will investigate
whether Sydney 's George Cardinal Pell was in contempt of parliament
in warning that there would be "consequences" for Catholic members of
the NSW parliament who voted for a bill that would scrap a ban on stem
cell research. The alleged free nations of the West, apparently intent
on suicide, will-should these trends continue-punish Catholic prelates
for doing their duty as they believe Christ has called them to do.
Nor, in the end, will it only be Catholics so threatened, but anyone
who holds to what the West has been, and what it needs to be if it is
to survive.

For such as these, then, any and all of Benedict XVI's efforts at
rebuilding the Catholic ethos should be welcomed, and their success
prayed for. But all of these things can bring little surprise to
students of history. Very often, down through the two millennia of the
Church's history, internal reform has been followed by external
persecution-itself usually the prelude to a period of triumph. In this
light, July 7, 2007, may well be seen in future centuries to be as
momentous a date as September 11, 2001--although, of course, one that
points not toward death but rebirth. Whatever the case, keep your eyes
on Rome.

Charles A. Coulombe is author of Vicars of Christ: A History of the
Popes.

Printer Friendly
Email Article
Email the Editor

Comments
As a complement to the superb scope of Mr. Coulombe's analysis it may
be worth observing that by casting aside the Tridentine rite,
Catholicism left it untouched by the pollution, Catholic and beyond,
of recent decades. Thus leaving aside such mystical strength as
Catholics will ascribe to it, even from a secular perspective there is
in the West today no more vivid a foundational alternative to said
pollution, than the historical Latin Mass.

Posted by Richard Cowden Guido on Jul 10, 2007.

Brilliant... Just brilliant.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 06:37:33 PM
On Sep 9, 1:49 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:
snip
As Western Civilization got less religious, it became more peaceful,
more egalitarian, and wealthier. Only the US remains behind the curve
on this progression. Guess why.
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
.

User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 10:15:43 PM
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:49:46 -0700, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote:

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]

Why would sane people give a rat's *****?
.
User: "•R L Measures"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 10:33:29 PM
In article <uld9e31rgqhcsrsb6bc2d03jgs088ja4oq@4ax.com>, Al Klein
<rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:49:46 -0700, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote:

Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Why would sane people give a rat's *****?

chortle
Could the Latin Mass have saved altar-boys from getting rammed in the ____ ?
.
User: "Peter Jason"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 09 Sep 2007 10:49:50 PM
".R L Measures" <r@somis.org> wrote in
message
news:r-0909072033290001@192.168.1.101...

In article
<uld9e31rgqhcsrsb6bc2d03jgs088ja4oq@4ax.com>,
Al Klein
<rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:49:46 -0700, Sound
of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote:

Could the Latin Mass Save Western
Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Why would sane people give a rat's *****?


chortle

Could the Latin Mass have saved altar-boys
from getting rammed in the ____ ?

In *my* experience the Latin mass had a
distant droning ambience, very conducive to
dozing off.
Come to think of it, the altar boys had that
expression on their faces very like that of a
cat having its temperature taken.
.
User: "•R L Measures"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 06:04:21 AM
In article <fc2etk$1c98$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Peter Jason"
<pj@jostle.com> wrote:

".R L Measures" <r@somis.org> wrote in
message
news:r-0909072033290001@192.168.1.101...

In article
<uld9e31rgqhcsrsb6bc2d03jgs088ja4oq@4ax.com>,
Al Klein
<rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:49:46 -0700, Sound
of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote:

Could the Latin Mass Save Western
Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Why would sane people give a rat's *****?


chortle

Could the Latin Mass have saved altar-boys
from getting rammed in the ____ ?


In *my* experience the Latin mass had a
distant droning ambience, very conducive to
dozing off.

** sounds like a miraculous cure for insomnia,


Come to think of it, the altar boys had that
expression on their faces very like that of a
cat having its temperature taken.

** chortle. I went to a wedding12-yrs ago where it appeared to me
that the priest was making eyes at the altar-boy. A few years thereafter,
the Archdiocese of Los Angeles sent a moving van in the wee hours of the
night, and said priest took flight. No explanation was ever given for the
priest's sudden, unannounced departure, and his forwarding address was not
disclosed.
.

User: "brique"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 11:09:51 AM
Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:fc2etk$1c98$1@otis.netspace.net.au...


".R L Measures" <r@somis.org> wrote in
message
news:r-0909072033290001@192.168.1.101...

In article
<uld9e31rgqhcsrsb6bc2d03jgs088ja4oq@4ax.com>,
Al Klein
<rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:49:46 -0700, Sound
of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote:

Could the Latin Mass Save Western
Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Why would sane people give a rat's *****?


chortle

Could the Latin Mass have saved altar-boys
from getting rammed in the ____ ?


In *my* experience the Latin mass had a
distant droning ambience, very conducive to
dozing off.

Come to think of it, the altar boys had that
expression on their faces very like that of a
cat having its temperature taken.

Of course, once people dust off the translations of the Latin Mass and
notice the rather unkind things it says about Jews, maybe Israel will feel
it necessary to perform a pre-emptive strike on the Vatican.....
.
User: "Peter Jason"

Title: Re: Could The Latin Mass Save Western Civilization? 10 Sep 2007 04:45:40 PM
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote in
message
news:1189440750.78704.0@iris.uk.clara.net...


Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote in
message
news:fc2etk$1c98$1@otis.netspace.net.au...


".R L Measures" <r@somis.org> wrote in
message
news:r-0909072033290001@192.168.1.101...

In article
<uld9e31rgqhcsrsb6bc2d03jgs088ja4oq@4ax.com>,
Al Klein
<rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:49:46 -0700,
Sound
of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote:

Could the Latin Mass Save Western
Civilization? [Catholic Caucus]


Why would sane people give a rat's *****?


chortle

Could the Latin Mass have saved
altar-boys
from getting rammed in the ____ ?


In *my* experience the Latin mass had a
distant droning ambience, very conducive
to
dozing off.

Come to think of it, the altar boys had
that
expression on their faces very like that
of a
cat having its temperature taken.


Of course, once people dust off the
translations of the Latin Mass and
notice the rather unkind things it says
about Jews, maybe Israel will feel
it necessary to perform a pre-emptive
strike on the Vatican.....

I fear it will never happen. The Jews
(especially the New York ones) are so rich to
make the Vatican