Religions > Atheism > Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Ted King" |
| Date: |
23 Sep 2003 11:01:30 PM |
| Object: |
Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance? |
I got into a discussion with some fellow workers today about whether or
not students in public schools can be legally required to stand up for
the Pledge of Allegiance even if they choose not to say it. They
insisted that not only is it proper from the perspective of requiring
students to show respect, but that students can be required by law to
stand during the pledge. I vigorously argued that requiring the students
to stand for purposes of showing respect was self defeating, and I
didn't think the courts would allow such a law to stand. I did find some
information about a federal court judge in New Jersey in 1978 (IIRC)
striking down such a requirement, but I couldn't find anything else.
Does anyone have any more information on this? One of the issues that I
am not sure about is if the finding of the federal court judge in New
Jersey would apply in California if California (where I live) had passed
a law requiring students to stand for the pledge. (I haven't been able
to find if California has, or has ever had, such a law, though.)
Thanks,
Ted
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance? |
23 Sep 2003 11:55:48 PM |
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Does anyone have any more information on this? One of the issues that I
am not sure about is if the finding of the federal court judge in New
Jersey would apply in California if California (where I live) had passed
a law requiring students to stand for the pledge. (I haven't been able
to find if California has, or has ever had, such a law, though.)
Judging by what was written in Barnette v. West Virginia in 1943, the case
which upheld that mandatory recitation of the Pledge was both unconstitutional
and anti-American, I would say that compelling someone to stand would also be a
form of "test oath" and the court ruled that test oaths have always been
abhorrent in the United States.
Read the decision yourself. Print it out. Show it to your friends at work who
you had the discussion with.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624
"I am unable to agree that the benefits that may accrue to society from the
compulsory flag salute are sufficiently definite and tangible to justify the
invasion of freedom and privacy that it entailed or to compensate for a
restraint on the freedom of the individual to be vocal or silent according to
his conscience or personal inclination. The trenchant words in the preamble to
the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom remain unanswerable: '... all
attempts to influence (the mind) by temporal punishment, or burthens, or by
civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness,
.....' Any spark of love for country which may be generated in a child or his
associates by forcing him to make what is to him an empty gesture and recite
words wrung from him contrary to his religious beliefs is overshadowed by the
desirability of preserving freedom of conscience to the full. It is in that
freedom and the example of persuasion, not in force and compulsion, that the
real unity of America lies." - US Supreme Court, West Virginia v. Barnette
(1943), concurring opinion of Justice Murphy
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Ted King" |
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| Title: Re: Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance? |
24 Sep 2003 07:32:28 PM |
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In article <20030924005548.02919.00000055@mb-m26.aol.com>,
forlornh@aol.commode (Lord Calvert) wrote:
Does anyone have any more information on this? One of the issues that I
am not sure about is if the finding of the federal court judge in New
Jersey would apply in California if California (where I live) had passed
a law requiring students to stand for the pledge. (I haven't been able
to find if California has, or has ever had, such a law, though.)
Judging by what was written in Barnette v. West Virginia in 1943, the case
which upheld that mandatory recitation of the Pledge was both
unconstitutional
and anti-American, I would say that compelling someone to stand would also be
a
form of "test oath" and the court ruled that test oaths have always been
abhorrent in the United States.
Read the decision yourself. Print it out. Show it to your friends at work who
you had the discussion with.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624
"I am unable to agree that the benefits that may accrue to society from the
compulsory flag salute are sufficiently definite and tangible to justify the
invasion of freedom and privacy that it entailed or to compensate for a
restraint on the freedom of the individual to be vocal or silent according to
his conscience or personal inclination. The trenchant words in the preamble
to
the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom remain unanswerable: '... all
attempts to influence (the mind) by temporal punishment, or burthens, or by
civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness,
....' Any spark of love for country which may be generated in a child or his
associates by forcing him to make what is to him an empty gesture and recite
words wrung from him contrary to his religious beliefs is overshadowed by the
desirability of preserving freedom of conscience to the full. It is in that
freedom and the example of persuasion, not in force and compulsion, that the
real unity of America lies." - US Supreme Court, West Virginia v. Barnette
(1943), concurring opinion of Justice Murphy
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when
wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
Thanks for the information. It is surprisingly hard to find much
specific information about this issue.
Ted
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance? |
25 Sep 2003 01:03:10 AM |
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Thanks for the information. It is surprisingly hard to find much
specific information about this issue.
To my knowledge the Barnette decision is so far the only Supreme Court decision
regarding the Pledge. I can't imagine it was hard to find.
The only exception is the Gobitis decision a year earlier which Barnette
specifically overturned because JWs were being considered traitors and were
being beaten because of their refusal to say the pledge. Many communities
believed that the Gobitis decision gave them free rein to lynch JWs. The
Supreme Court realized that they had unwittingly created the situation they
wished to avoid, admitted that they had made a horrific mistake and corrected
it in one of the most well written decisions regarding individual liberty and
its supremacy over State authority that they have ever judged.
Remember that this was during WW2 when both Gobitis and Barnette were decided
and after Gobitis, the Court saw JWs becoming the religious pariahs in the US
that Jews were becoming in Central Europe. The Barnette decision made specific
reference to this.
"Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought
essential to their time and country have been waged by many good as well as by
evil men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon but at other times and
places the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty
or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods
to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an
ever-increasing severity. As governmental pressure toward unity becomes
greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be. Probably
no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from
finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public
educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate
futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such
effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its
pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the
Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts
of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of
dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification
of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard. It seems trite but
necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to
avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the
American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We
set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies
those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is
to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority." - US
Supreme Court, West Virginia v. Barnette (1943)
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Ted King" |
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| Title: Re: Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance? |
25 Sep 2003 08:08:17 AM |
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In article <20030925020310.29105.00000103@mb-m24.aol.com>,
forlornh@aol.commode (Lord Calvert) wrote:
Thanks for the information. It is surprisingly hard to find much
specific information about this issue.
To my knowledge the Barnette decision is so far the only Supreme Court
decision
regarding the Pledge. I can't imagine it was hard to find.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant was that it has been hard to find
information about any court rulings specifically addressing whether or
not a student in a public school can be required to stand for the pledge
even if they are not required to say it.
The only exception is the Gobitis decision a year earlier which Barnette
specifically overturned because JWs were being considered traitors and were
being beaten because of their refusal to say the pledge. Many communities
believed that the Gobitis decision gave them free rein to lynch JWs. The
Supreme Court realized that they had unwittingly created the situation they
wished to avoid, admitted that they had made a horrific mistake and corrected
it in one of the most well written decisions regarding individual liberty and
its supremacy over State authority that they have ever judged.
Remember that this was during WW2 when both Gobitis and Barnette were decided
and after Gobitis, the Court saw JWs becoming the religious pariahs in the US
that Jews were becoming in Central Europe. The Barnette decision made
specific
reference to this.
"Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought
essential to their time and country have been waged by many good as well as
by
evil men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon but at other times
and
places the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a
dynasty
or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate
methods
to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to
an
ever-increasing severity. As governmental pressure toward unity becomes
greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be.
Probably
no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from
finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public
educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate
futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such
effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its
pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the
Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts
of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of
dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification
of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard. It seems trite but
necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to
avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the
American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We
set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies
those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here
is
to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority." - US
Supreme Court, West Virginia v. Barnette (1943)
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when
wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
It does seem clear *to me* that requiring public school students to
stand for the pledge even if they are not required to say it violates
the spirit of the ruling you quote here, but evidently it isn't obvious
to everyone because in my research I have found that state legislatures
have chosen to pass laws, long after this ruling, requiring public
school students to stand for the pledge even if they aren't required to
say it. The few references I have found about how courts have dealt with
this indicates that, fortunately, the standing requirement has been
found to be unconstitutional.
Ted
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance? |
25 Sep 2003 01:04:30 PM |
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It does seem clear *to me* that requiring public school students to
stand for the pledge even if they are not required to say it violates
the spirit of the ruling you quote here, but evidently it isn't obvious
to everyone because in my research I have found that state legislatures
have chosen to pass laws, long after this ruling, requiring public
school students to stand for the pledge even if they aren't required to
say it. The few references I have found about how courts have dealt with
this indicates that, fortunately, the standing requirement has been
found to be unconstitutional.
I thought it was very telling that Justice Frankfurter, in his dissent,
explicitly said that he didn't give a damn what the Constitution said. I think
that says a lot about the mentality of people who are pressuring for compulsory
loyalty oaths. They don't give a damn about the Constitution...like Frankfurter
didn't.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Emma Pease" |
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| Title: Re: Court rulings on requirement of standing for Pledge of Allegiance? |
26 Sep 2003 10:20:41 AM |
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In article <20030925020310.29105.00000103@mb-m24.aol.com>, Lord Calvert wrote:
Remember that this was during WW2 when both Gobitis and Barnette
were decided and after Gobitis, the Court saw JWs becoming the
religious pariahs in the US that Jews were becoming in Central
Europe. The Barnette decision made specific reference to this.
It was actually much more obvious than this. Jehovahs Witnesses were
being sent to concentration camps in Germany for refusing oaths of
allegiance there (and refusing to serve in the military). Also
Gobitis (1940) was issued before the US joined WWII and Barnette after
which may also have affected Supreme Court opinion.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
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