Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	""
Date:	07 Aug 2005 05:48:45 AM
Object:	Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing

Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing
http://ffrf.org/news/2005/bushID.php
August 5, 2005
If Bush truly wants to "expose people to different schools of thought,"
will he advocate teaching Darwinism in Sunday School? Shall we insert a
chapter from Origin of the Species between Genesis 1 and 2?
Statement by Dan Barker, co-president
Freedom From Religion Foundation
Are we surprised when a president known more for his faith than his
intellect advises us that creationism should be taught in public schools?
George W. Bush, responding this week to a question about evolution and
"intelligent design," gave us his learned scientific opinion: "Both sides
ought to be properly taught . . . so people can understand what the debate
is about. . . . Part of education is to expose people to different schools
of thought."
Does anyone think Bush really cares about an objective academic debate? Our
president, the darling of the Christian right, is simply using his office
to legitimize his theiistic views, which happen to be the origin myth of
the believing bloc that voted him into office.
As Christian conservative Gary Bauer pointed out: "With the president
endorsing it, at the very least it makes Americans who have that position
more respectable."
But there are more than two origin explanations. Does Bush advise
"properly" teaching the various Native American creation myths, such as the
earth forming on the back of a turtle rising from the waters? Does he
insist that the "school of thought" of the Raelians (that humans are cloned
extraterrestials) or the Babylonian Enuma Elish (that we sprang from the
blood drops of the goddess Tiamat) also be "properly" taught in public
science classrooms? Exactly how do you "properly teach" myth and magic in
the science class?
The proponents of "intelligent design"--which is just the old creationist
wolf in cheap clothing--want us to think that because there seem (to them)
to be examples of "irreducible complexity" in living cells, or in other
features of the universe, we must conclude that it was designed by an
intelligence outside of nature. Since creationists have repeatedly been
told by the courts that they can no longer outlaw evolution or teach
Genesis in public schools, they are careful not to specify exactly who this
designer is, pretending that their hypothesis is merely objective,
disinterested science.
Really. Golly, George, who do you think the mysterious Designer is?
Bush and the ID people are fooling no one. Look who cheers when the
president makes such remarks: not scientists--who overwhelmingly reject
"intelligent design"--but bible toters, theocrats and preachers. Theologian
Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna claims that evolution as an "unguided,
unplanned process of random variation and natural selection" is untrue.
This is not science vs. science. This is poorly disguised religious dogma
vs. the fact of evolution.
"Creationism science" is three things:
1) An attack on evolution, offering no evidence for their hypothesis of a
designer ("Natural selection is wrong, so we win by default");
2) The old "god of the gaps" strategy of seeking supposedly unanswerable
questions, and plugging the gap with a deity ("Gosh, we can't explain this,
so there must be a god");
3) A story, such as the creation myth in the book of Genesis ("God said it,
I believe it").
"Intelligent design" is not science. Its proponents have never had an
article published on the topic in any peer-reviewed scientific journal.
They conduct no experiments that would prove or falsify their hypothesis.
Their conjecture makes no useful predictions, nor can it be mathematically
modeled. There are no research labs doing ID science.
And who are they to proclaim that we have reached the end of scientific
progress? It is the gaps that drive science forward, not grind it to a
halt.
The ancients thought thunder and soil fertility were evidence of deities,
but now we know something about electricity, weather, and agriculture.
Those gaps have closed, and those gods have died. Isaac Newton, a fervent
Christian, played the same game. After brilliantly discovering the laws of
gravity that hold the planets in orbit, he failed to come up with an
explanation for why the planets move in the same plane and same direction.
He impatiently declared that these unsolvable mysteries were evidence for
an intelligent designer. But now we know something about the formation of
solar systems, and that gap has closed.
Just because today's scientists can't fully answer a particular question,
can creationists mandate that no further inquiry is allowed? (Many of their
supposed examples of "irreducible complexity," by the way, have already
been explained, but this does not seem to discourage them.)
Let's ask creationists: Someday, when these gaps have closed and all your
purported examples of "irreducible complexity" have been satisfactorily
explained by science, will you abandon your belief in a god?
"Intelligent design" a not true science, vulnerable to disconfirmation. It
is merely a prop to legitimize prior beliefs.
Scientists, by the way, do acknowledge design in the universe: design by
natural selection, and by the limited number of ways atoms and molecules
can combine mathematically and geometrically, or by emergent properties
arising from "chaos," and so on. But "intelligent" design is an
unsatisfactory hypothesis because it simply answers one mystery with
another mystery. The mind of an intelligent designer would itself show
signs of functional complexity, raising the question: who designed the
designer?
If George Bush really wants to "expose people to different schools of
thought," will he advocate teaching Darwinism in Sunday School? Shall we
insert a chapter from Origin of the Species between Genesis 1 and 2?
The debate between the supernatural and natural world views ought to be
discussed, but not in science class. It's not as though today's
schoolchildren have been deprived of hearing about an "intelligent
designer." There are churches on every other corner and religious
broadcasts across the radio and TV spectra. Let's talk about religion--the
good and the bad of it--in a class on philosophy or current topics.
But not in science class. Science teachers should teach science. Those who
pretend "intelligent design" is science are missionaries, not teachers.
.................................................................
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freethinkers (atheists and agnostics) working to keep church and state
separate since 1978. For more information, go to http://www.ffrf.org.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
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http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
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.

User: "fred"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	07 Aug 2005 06:32:49 PM

wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between Genesis 1
and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of the Species
followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Statement by Dan Barker, co-president
Freedom From Religion Foundation

Are we surprised when a president known more for his faith than his
intellect advises us that creationism should be taught in public schools?
George W. Bush, responding this week to a question about evolution and
"intelligent design," gave us his learned scientific opinion: "Both sides

<snipped for brevity>
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	08 Aug 2005 02:23:18 PM

In article <1123457569.113229.271060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> writes:

buckeyeelo@nospam.net wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between Genesis 1
and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of the Species
followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Followed, of course, with a chapter on how Raven coaxed the
First Men, who were shy, from under a clam shell, and then
the First Women, who were even shyer, from a chiton shell.
Because if we're going to have a chapter on irreducible complexity,
then we certainly must have a chapter on this creation
theory of the Haida Gwaii. After all, these two theories
approximately equal support among practicing biologists.
-- cary
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	08 Aug 2005 10:15:29 PM

In episode <dd8bf6$l6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst into
the room and exclaimed:

In article <1123457569.113229.271060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> "fred"
<clarma1@gmail.com> writes:

buckeyeelo@nospam.net wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between Genesis 1
and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of the Species
followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Followed, of course, with a chapter on how Raven coaxed the First Men, who
were shy, from under a clam shell, and then the First Women, who were even
shyer, from a chiton shell.

Because if we're going to have a chapter on irreducible complexity, then
we certainly must have a chapter on this creation theory of the Haida
Gwaii. After all, these two theories approximately equal support among
practicing biologists.

Personally, the story (Chumash if memory serves) of the animals singing
the world into being is a top contender.
Want evidence it happened? The world is here isn't it?? See???
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	09 Aug 2005 11:58:46 AM

In article <a7qdnY19YIZPgmXfRVn-pQ@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:

In episode <dd8bf6$l6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst into
the room and exclaimed:

In article <1123457569.113229.271060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> "fred"
<clarma1@gmail.com> writes:

buckeyeelo@nospam.net wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between Genesis 1
and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of the Species
followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Followed, of course, with a chapter on how Raven coaxed the First Men, who
were shy, from under a clam shell, and then the First Women, who were even
shyer, from a chiton shell.

Because if we're going to have a chapter on irreducible complexity, then
we certainly must have a chapter on this creation theory of the Haida
Gwaii. After all, these two theories approximately equal support among
practicing biologists.

Personally, the story (Chumash if memory serves) of the animals singing
the world into being is a top contender.

Oh yeah. We gotta have a chapter on that one too.
This may be on its way to becoming the biggest elementary biology text
in the history of the world.
-- cary
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	09 Aug 2005 12:35:27 PM

In episode <ddanc6$j96$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst into
the room and exclaimed:

In article <a7qdnY19YIZPgmXfRVn-pQ@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:

In episode <dd8bf6$l6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst
into the room and exclaimed:

In article <1123457569.113229.271060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> writes:

buckeyeelo@nospam.net wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between Genesis 1
and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of the Species
followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Followed, of course, with a chapter on how Raven coaxed the First Men,
who were shy, from under a clam shell, and then the First Women, who
were even shyer, from a chiton shell.

Because if we're going to have a chapter on irreducible complexity,
then we certainly must have a chapter on this creation theory of the
Haida Gwaii. After all, these two theories approximately equal
support among practicing biologists.

Personally, the story (Chumash if memory serves) of the animals singing
the world into being is a top contender.

Oh yeah. We gotta have a chapter on that one too.

This may be on its way to becoming the biggest elementary biology text in
the history of the world.

While we're at it, we need to include the theories of these folks:
http://www.geocentricity.com/mainpage.html
Hey, they've even built *working *models!
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	09 Aug 2005 12:50:20 PM

"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>

In episode <ddanc6$j96$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst into
the room and exclaimed:

In article <a7qdnY19YIZPgmXfRVn-pQ@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:

In episode <dd8bf6$l6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst
into the room and exclaimed:

In article <1123457569.113229.271060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> writes:

buckeyeelo@nospam.net wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between Genesis 1
and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of the Species
followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Followed, of course, with a chapter on how Raven coaxed the First Men,
who were shy, from under a clam shell, and then the First Women, who
were even shyer, from a chiton shell.

Because if we're going to have a chapter on irreducible complexity,
then we certainly must have a chapter on this creation theory of the
Haida Gwaii. After all, these two theories approximately equal
support among practicing biologists.

Personally, the story (Chumash if memory serves) of the animals singing
the world into being is a top contender.

Oh yeah. We gotta have a chapter on that one too.

This may be on its way to becoming the biggest elementary biology text in
the history of the world.

While we're at it, we need to include the theories of these folks:

http://www.geocentricity.com/mainpage.html

Hey, they've even built *working *models!

Whoa! Is Duke "the Moon does NOT rotate" Gumbo aware of this page?
-- cary
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	09 Aug 2005 04:13:16 PM

In episode <ddaqcs$pkl$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst into
the room and exclaimed:

"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>

In episode <ddanc6$j96$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst
into the room and exclaimed:

In article <a7qdnY19YIZPgmXfRVn-pQ@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:

In episode <dd8bf6$l6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst
into the room and exclaimed:

In article <1123457569.113229.271060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> writes:

buckeyeelo@nospam.net wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between
Genesis 1 and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of
the Species followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Followed, of course, with a chapter on how Raven coaxed the First
Men, who were shy, from under a clam shell, and then the First
Women, who were even shyer, from a chiton shell.

Because if we're going to have a chapter on irreducible complexity,
then we certainly must have a chapter on this creation theory of
the Haida Gwaii. After all, these two theories approximately equal
support among practicing biologists.

Personally, the story (Chumash if memory serves) of the animals
singing the world into being is a top contender.

Oh yeah. We gotta have a chapter on that one too.

This may be on its way to becoming the biggest elementary biology text
in the history of the world.

While we're at it, we need to include the theories of these folks:

http://www.geocentricity.com/mainpage.html

Hey, they've even built *working *models!

Whoa! Is Duke "the Moon does NOT rotate" Gumbo aware of this page?

He's probably a founder...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	14 Aug 2005 11:55:23 PM

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:13:16 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote
(in article <RJmdnVfbFbrxgWTfRVn-gg@megapath.net>):

In episode <ddaqcs$pkl$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst into
the room and exclaimed:

"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>

In episode <ddanc6$j96$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst
into the room and exclaimed:

In article <a7qdnY19YIZPgmXfRVn-pQ@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:

In episode <dd8bf6$l6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell burst
into the room and exclaimed:

In article <1123457569.113229.271060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> writes:

buckeyeelo@nospam.net wrote:

We actually need to consider inserting two chapters between
Genesis 1 and 2. We need to insert one chapter from the Origin of
the Species followed by a chapter about irreducible complexity.

Followed, of course, with a chapter on how Raven coaxed the First
Men, who were shy, from under a clam shell, and then the First
Women, who were even shyer, from a chiton shell.

Because if we're going to have a chapter on irreducible complexity,
then we certainly must have a chapter on this creation theory of
the Haida Gwaii. After all, these two theories approximately equal
support among practicing biologists.

Personally, the story (Chumash if memory serves) of the animals
singing the world into being is a top contender.

Oh yeah. We gotta have a chapter on that one too.

This may be on its way to becoming the biggest elementary biology text
in the history of the world.

While we're at it, we need to include the theories of these folks:

http://www.geocentricity.com/mainpage.html

Hey, they've even built *working *models!

Whoa! Is Duke "the Moon does NOT rotate" Gumbo aware of this page?

He's probably a founder...

< http://www.geocentricity.com/bibastron/credo.html>
is even more fun.
++gray
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	08 Aug 2005 10:43:57 AM

In episode <9opbf1hbvp4potga9rtsriqv6hgu197jb0@4ax.com>, buckeyeelo burst
into the room and exclaimed:

If Bush wants to "expose people to different schools of thought," will he
require that churches teach other religions?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "toto"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	08 Aug 2005 11:18:57 AM

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:43:57 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:

If Bush truly wants to "expose people to different schools of thought,"
will he advocate teaching Darwinism in Sunday School? Shall we insert a
chapter from Origin of the Species between Genesis 1 and 2?

If Bush wants to "expose people to different schools of thought," will he
require that churches teach other religions?

How can Bush *require* anything of Churches since they are not public
institutions?
He might advocate anything, though I doubt if he will advocate that
any Church should change its teachings, but he cannot require any
private institution to teach anything.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	09 Aug 2005 01:01:06 AM

toto <scarecrow@wicked.witch> wrote:

He also cannot require any public institutions to teach anything
either. That is not among his powers as President. And no one else
has the power to require public institutions to teach religion.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	07 Aug 2005 09:19:36 AM

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 06:48:45 -0400, in alt.atheism ,
buckeyeelo@nospam.net in <9opbf1hbvp4potga9rtsriqv6hgu197jb0@4ax.com>
wrote:

This is the wrong question because churches are not government
institutions. The right question to ask is what other "different
schools of thought" does he advocate teaching? Do we teach flat Earth
in science? Homosexual lifestyles in health class? Do we teach
communism in Home Ecc? Given the long history of his supporters to
oppose presentation of any ideas they don't like this was a less than
honest request from Shrub.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
Cliff on Cheers
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Creationist Wolf in Cheap Clothing	07 Aug 2005 12:55:19 PM

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:19:36 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 06:48:45 -0400, in alt.atheism ,
buckeyeelo@nospam.net in <9opbf1hbvp4potga9rtsriqv6hgu197jb0@4ax.com>
wrote:

This is the wrong question because churches are not government
institutions.

Disagree about it being the wrong question. The point isn't about
'government institutions.' The stated, and lying, point is the
'exposure of people to different schools of thought'. Since Shrub
advocates the intrusion of superstition into science classes the flip
side of exposing people to science while in a superstition class is
appropo.

The right question to ask is what other "different
schools of thought" does he advocate teaching? Do we teach flat Earth
in science? Homosexual lifestyles in health class? Do we teach
communism in Home Ecc? Given the long history of his supporters to
oppose presentation of any ideas they don't like this was a less than
honest request from Shrub.

When has Shrub shown the slightest hint of honesty?
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

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