| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
12 Aug 2007 08:07:38 AM |
| Object: |
crime: atheists v. religious |
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 11:33:32 AM |
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"beowulf@nowhere.net" <r.oelerich@gmail.com> said:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
Three of those "crimes" aren't crimes at all. Nobody gets arrested for
committing suicide. Teen pregnancy or any pregnancy at all, or getting
an STD, could be the result of a crime -- rape -- but getting
pregnant while a teen and getting an STD are not crimes.
BTW, in some situations "homicide" is not a crime. That terms covers
all killing of born humans.
So that's your first reply. Get relevant data.
Also some countries/states criminalize behavior that other countries
don't. Be sure it is apples to apples.
Having said that, it is entirely plausible that religion helps keep
crime rates down -- although some religions sanction behavior that
others condemn. Societies use whatever means necessary to enforce and
encourage conformance to their moral codes. Enshrining morality in
religion can help, both by adding "divine" motivation and by having an
institution for teaching and transmitting values to the young. So I
don't think it is a point for the *truth* of religion, to say that if
can aid in conformance to a moral code.
However, first I'd question the data, as above.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 11:54:30 AM |
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On Aug 12, 11:33 am, Jim07D7 <Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote:
....
Three of those "crimes" aren't crimes at all. Nobody gets arrested for
committing suicide. Teen pregnancy or any pregnancy at all, or getting
an STD, could be the result of a crime -- rape -- but getting
pregnant while a teen and getting an STD are not crimes.
....
I was generallizing-- my bad. The study actually looked at immorality,
as judged by crimes (murder, rape, etc--and suicide is a crime
generally, though you can not be prosecuted for it!), teen pregnancy
(sex outside of marriage), STDs, divorce, etc. Morality is hard to
define-- technically all atheists are immoral, if a person of faith
wants to define morality as strict adherence to their divinely
insprired set of moral rules. I do not follow the Ten Commandements,
nor necessarily all the teachings of Jesus or the bible, though in
principle they sometimes contain truths relevant to all (and such
alleged teachings are simply plagiarized pathworks borrowed from other
religions and wise books, since Jesus is mythical anyhow)
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 06:21:31 PM |
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"beowulf@nowhere.net" <r.oelerich@gmail.com> said:
On Aug 12, 11:33 am, Jim07D7 <Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote:
...
Three of those "crimes" aren't crimes at all. Nobody gets arrested for
committing suicide. Teen pregnancy or any pregnancy at all, or getting
an STD, could be the result of a crime -- rape -- but getting
pregnant while a teen and getting an STD are not crimes.
...
I was generallizing-- my bad. The study actually looked at immorality,
as judged by crimes (murder, rape, etc--and suicide is a crime
generally, though you can not be prosecuted for it!), teen pregnancy
(sex outside of marriage), STDs, divorce, etc. Morality is hard to
define-- technically all atheists are immoral, if a person of faith
wants to define morality as strict adherence to their divinely
insprired set of moral rules.
Of course the Bible contains injunctions against making such moral
judgements.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 12:24:28 PM |
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wrote:
Morality is hard to
define
Not at all. Morality is following "the rules". It is "the
rules" that vary tremendously in different cultures.
-- technically all atheists are immoral, if a person of faith
wants to define morality as strict adherence to their divinely
insprired set of moral rules.
Exactly, If someone else defines "the rules' but you live
by different rules, you will be labeled immoral by those who
do not sanction your chosen rules.
I do not follow the Ten Commandements,
nor necessarily all the teachings of Jesus or the bible, though in
principle they sometimes contain truths relevant to all (and such
alleged teachings are simply plagiarized pathworks borrowed from other
religions and wise books, since Jesus is mythical anyhow)
And you might well see those who do follow a religion based
set of rules as immoral, if you think many of those rules
are silly or bad. Morality is always arbitrary and
relative, because "the rules" are always made and selected
by people, not gods. Theists may believe that their rules
of morality are god given, but that is just another aspect
of their religious delusion.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 10:03:03 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:54:30 -0000, "beowulf@nowhere.net"
<r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:33 am, Jim07D7 <Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote:
...
Three of those "crimes" aren't crimes at all. Nobody gets arrested for
committing suicide. Teen pregnancy or any pregnancy at all, or getting
an STD, could be the result of a crime -- rape -- but getting
pregnant while a teen and getting an STD are not crimes.
...
I was generallizing-- my bad. The study actually looked at immorality,
as judged by crimes
Crimes and morals are different things. Sometimes it's criminal to do
the morally correct thing (see: Anne Frank).
(murder, rape, etc--and suicide is a crime
generally, though you can not be prosecuted for it!
Then it's not a crime, it's an act that's frowned upon..
Morality is hard to define-- technically all atheists are immoral, if a person of faith
wants to define morality as strict adherence to their divinely
insprired set of moral rules.
It's also hard to define if it's defined as adhering to the Martian
Rules for Morality, which makes as much sense. Definitions only hold
within their frame of reference. (See the concept of "scope" in
programming.) Christian definitions of morality are meaningless
outside the scope of Christianity.
It's easy if it's defined as "doing the thing that's least wrong"
(sometimes, as in the lifeboat dilemma, there's no "good" choice).
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 01:07:31 PM |
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On Aug 12, 9:33 am, Jim07D7 <Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote:
"beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com> said:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
Three of those "crimes" aren't crimes at all. Nobody gets arrested for
committing suicide. Teen pregnancy or any pregnancy at all, or getting
an STD, could be the result of a crime -- rape -- but getting
pregnant while a teen and getting an STD are not crimes.
BTW, in some situations "homicide" is not a crime. That terms covers
all killing of born humans.
So that's your first reply. Get relevant data.
Also some countries/states criminalize behavior that other countries
don't. Be sure it is apples to apples.
Having said that, it is entirely plausible that religion helps keep
crime rates down -- although some religions sanction behavior that
others condemn. Societies use whatever means necessary to enforce and
encourage conformance to their moral codes. Enshrining morality in
religion can help, both by adding "divine" motivation and by having an
institution for teaching and transmitting values to the young. So I
don't think it is a point for the *truth* of religion, to say that if
can aid in conformance to a moral code.
However, first I'd question the data, as above.
I wonder if the crime rate is lower for violent crimes only? Those two
religious groups, the Mormons and the Hamish, are pretty insular, and
they hammer home the point to not cause members of their own group any
physical harm (e.g. don't kill or steal). But I would be curious about
the rate of family crimes, like spousal abuse and child abuse. I know
some of the Mormon offshoots (like the LDS) are horror shows in that
regard.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
15 Aug 2007 07:22:12 PM |
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"beowulf@nowhere.net" <r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186924058.050130.176550@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
Ask them to compare Christian prison rates to
atheist prison rates. The last list I saw had
atheists at less than 1% of the prison population
while the highest prison populations were Catholics
and Baptists. I don't remember seeing the prison
rates for Amish and Mormons, though I'd bet the
Amish were also very low.
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
1997
http://www.adherents.com:443/misc/adh_prison2.html
http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
15 Aug 2007 08:03:42 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:22:12 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"beowulf@nowhere.net" <r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186924058.050130.176550@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
Ask them to compare Christian prison rates to
atheist prison rates. The last list I saw had
atheists at less than 1% of the prison population
while the highest prison populations were Catholics
and Baptists. I don't remember seeing the prison
rates for Amish and Mormons, though I'd bet the
Amish were also very low.
It's the 'per capita' rates that make sense.
And they are even more startling.
Atheists are so under-represented in prison on a population adjusted
basis, that the statistic is unassailable!
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 08:26:42 AM |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
beowulf@nowhere.net wrote:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
And which study was that?
With out a name, it's kind of hard to analyze what was reported.
- --
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 08:45:01 AM |
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On Aug 12, 8:26 am, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
And which study was that?
Religion in democratic societies correlated with decreased morality:
http://www.davidgalbraith.org/archives/000934.html
http://ffrf.org/timely/Religion&Society.pdf
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 09:53:29 AM |
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beowulf@nowhere.net wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:26 am, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
And which study was that?
Religion in democratic societies correlated with decreased morality:
http://www.davidgalbraith.org/archives/000934.html
http://ffrf.org/timely/Religion&Society.pdf
Okay, your first paragraph has one small typo in it, which leads to a
great deal of confusion when reading the reports:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc). ^^^^
Should have read "less", according to these reports.
Now, as to the statement made by your theist friend. Mormons and Amish
DO NOT represent a large enough segment of a culture to tip the scales
in this study. While I will agree that Mormons are a much larger group
the the Amish, both are a tiny fraction of a percentage point on the
scale of total population.
BTW, not all Mormons are good Mormons either. Colorado City comes to
mind very quickly, as does the name Warren Jeffs. Yes, they will say he
is "not a true Mormon", but that falls under the no true Scotsman
fallacy. Just as when Baptist claim that Catholics are not true
Christians, Warren Jeffs is just as much a Mormon as any other, and is
charged with some pretty heavy crimes.
Now, another little statement you may wish to make that follows up on
the population segment statement. IF Amish and Mormon groups are so
indicative of good morals through faith, then in countries where they
are an even smaller segment of society, or none existent, how does your
friend account for the continued decline in immoral activity and problems?
Also, do not let your friend try to use the gun control argument as a
factor in the decline of crime in those countries. IF as claimed
religious faith is such a powerful force for good, then it would not
matter if there were gun control or not. (Even though all we atheists
know that gun control DOES play a factor, because faith does nothing.)
Point out to your friend that even with the Mormon and Amish populations
we have here in the US, we have more crime and immoral behavior then
most secular countries. Our latest polls present a picture of better
then 90% of the country believing in gods, and yet we just keep killing
each other, raping little kids, consuming massive amounts of drugs, and
electing vile creatures to legislate our morality.
So much for religions influence on society.
- --
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 10:22:51 AM |
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On Aug 12, 9:53 am, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
....
Okay, your first paragraph has one small typo in it, which leads to a
great deal of confusion when reading the reports:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought>up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc). ^^^^
Should have read "less", according to these reports.
...
Ouch! My bad. What a difference a [incorrect] word makes! Sorry!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 10:26:52 AM |
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On Aug 12, 9:53 am, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
....
Point out to your friend that even with the Mormon and Amish populations
we have here in the US, we have more crime and immoral behavior then
most secular countries. Our latest polls present a picture of better
then 90% of the country believing in gods, and yet we just keep killing
each other, raping little kids, consuming massive amounts of drugs, and
electing vile creatures to legislate our morality.
So much for religions influence on society.
....
I just did some more research, and emailed it to my friend, that is
quite interesting. Anybody can google and find that there are many
mormons in prisons, and that while the crime rate in Utah is about
half that of the general US population, the crime rates (and HIV, etc)
in the [highly atheistic] Czech Republic are dramatically less than
the USA and even about half the crime rates in Utah (mormon country)!
Here is the email I just sent to my friend:
Dear ___,
The data below is quite interesting. If you believe Utah to be a
population high in Mormons and certainly belief in a creator, and with
a low percentage of atheists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah#Religion
then the following crime statistics show relatively low crime in a
population (UT) high in Mormons and thus faith based persons, relative
to the US general population :
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html
However, even with Utah (Mormonism, faith in a creator) showing crime
data (violent and non-violent crime) about half that of the US
population in general, we have a dramatically lower crime (immorality)
rate in the Czech Republic, a country notorious for having an
extremely atheist population:
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/082332.htm
How can we explain the extremely high morality and ethics (i.e. low
crime of all sorts) of a society (Czech Republic) with low belief in a
creator, relative to even Utah with its high Mormon (and thus high
faith) population? I just can not see evidence in light of this that
lack of a faith upbringing means lack of morality--otherwise we should
see immorality and lack of ethics in the Czech Republic--but we do
not. Historically the CR (Czech Republic) used to be almost entirely
atheistic, and yet it has historically been a very safe and moral,
ethical country. We see murder, robbery, rape, and HIV at incredibly
lower rates in the CR, even at rates half that of Utah (Mormon
country). I know that people of faith would like to believe that
faith in God/Creator is necessary for morality and ethics, but the
statistical data--the world as we know it--contradicts that.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 09:54:42 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:26:52 -0000, "beowulf@nowhere.net"
<r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote:
I just did some more research, and emailed it to my friend, that is
quite interesting. Anybody can google and find that there are many
mormons in prisons, and that while the crime rate in Utah is about
half that of the general US population, the crime rates (and HIV, etc)
in the [highly atheistic] Czech Republic are dramatically less than
the USA and even about half the crime rates in Utah (mormon country)!
Two comments:
1) "Morality" is an opinion, so the statement that a society is more
or less moral than another is also an opinion, not a fact.
2) If Mormons are anything like JWs, many crimes are covered up "for
the good of the Church", so the reported numbers are nonsense. (And
many ex-Mormons claim that this is exactly the case.) All we can be
CERTAIN of is that the true numbers are much higher.
As an aside, most Amish ARE very moral people. Whether we agree with
their practices or not, they don't bring harm to others, they assist
others (even outsiders) and they actually practice what they preach.
.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 10:37:37 AM |
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On Aug 12, 9:07?am, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
Specific numbers are hard to get when it comes to your question.
The vast majority of people in the world are spiritually based and
only a faction of society are militant atheists.
So the numbers of failures will always be greater when looking at the
theists as there are greater numbers of theists. (One poll shoed 98%
of society believes in a god or an after life.)
But, the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
When atheists become successes at 'the religion of humanity,' you may
become more successful at replacing theist based religion.
Until atheism can replace theist based religion as a VIABLE and REAL
way to inner peace, with a reverence of humanity, it can never take
over the world and extinguish religion.
When you get rid of one thing, it makes room for another.
Sure atheist can succeed at pointing to the flaws of religious
thought, but they have nothing to replace the flaws with.
So theists choose the lesser of two evils while on earth, with the
hopes of hitting the jackpot in the hereafter.
Until then..."a mans mind may be likened to a garden which may be
intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether
cultivated or neglected, it must and will bring forth. If no useful
seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless 'weed seeds' will
fall therein and will continue to produce their kind." ~ James Allen
And religion does a good job at controlling the weeds.
In its history, organized atheism has never succeeded at replacing
religion with real humanity and compassion.
The atheists talk a good story, but atheists fail miserably when it
comes to practical application of the 'peace talk.'
Yes, there are theists that stink. See: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html
I will be the first to admit that religion has done lots of harm but I
will also say religion done lots of right.
And just as the question of God cannot be answered with any certainty,
so goes the question of whether the world would have been better off
without religion or not.
It is a question that cannot be answered like it was in the movie
"It's a Wonderful life.'
But lets look at the facts and see that the vast, vast majority of
people are theists or believe in hereafter, so the pot is enormous
that we draw from when we pull out examples of evildoing theists that
the atheists like to parade around.
The USA was founded with God in the details. I suggest atheists that
hate a religious based country like the USA move to China or Russia.
Then you can live your dream right now, in your God free country.
In China, it was a common practice to execute political prisoners with
one bullet to the head...then they sent the bill for the bullet to the
family of the executed prisoner. That is where separation of state and
religion can lead a country. Once religion is out of politics, then
the only thing left in control is ego.
They say Hitler was a Catholic?
I don't know if he was Catholic or not.
I do know that Hitler did not practice even the most basic tenants of
Christianity.
It takes more than lip service to be a 'practicing' Catholic,
Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or Hebrew follower.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=380.0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0
Now, some 'spiritually based atheist's can far surpasses many theists
in kindness and virtue many times...so it just depends on what 'type
of atheist' you are talking about? But these sort of atheists are very
rare to encounter, as spiritual values and atheism do not generally
mix.
"People that practice religion are worried about going to hell -
people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't
want to go back."
A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do
not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until
they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace)
they seek.
It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
between them and happiness.
So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of
spiritual values.
And if the atheists is honest they will see they do not run their
lives solely by logic and are no better than the theist that runs
their lives by faith.
No, logic only goes so far in life. For what is logical is not always
practical when it comes to humans ... is it?
Always remember...one thing only goes so far with giving a person a
good life. Seek balance.
Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect - but we can all do
better at being humans if we try to be more humane.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 10:51:34 AM |
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On Aug 12, 10:37 am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
....
But, the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
....
The data speaks otherwise-- see my posting on this thread with links
to crime rates, HIV, etc. in a relatively high atheist society (Czech
Republic) compared to highly religious societies like the US. Your
statement "the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion
they generally stink as humansjust does not have hold merit." Where
are the facts you speak of? Certainly not the prison populations,
filled with primarily theists.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
14 Aug 2007 06:53:15 PM |
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On Aug 12, 11:51 am, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:37 am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
...> But, the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
...
The data speaks otherwise-- see my posting on this thread with links
to crime rates, HIV, etc. in a relatively high atheist society (Czech
Republic) compared to highly religious societies like the US. Your
statement "the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion
they generally stink as humansjust does not have hold merit." Where
are the facts you speak of? Certainly not the prison populations,
filled with primarily theists.
Oh, just ignore V. He's not here to discuss, he's here to pontificate.
IIRC, we've actually got a group plonk on him at the moment.
As to the subject matter, IMO these people are just denying the truth,
because they are too emotionally involved with their god concepts. The
Gregory Paul study you mentioned is recent, but the data about prisons
has been known for years.
It is *very* difficult to reason someone away from a position they've
taken for their emotional needs. And the next time they take you to
task for it, just keep reloading. Here's yet another study proving
your point:
http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/4/353
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
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| User: "Vlad the accountant" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
15 Aug 2007 06:08:36 AM |
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On Aug 12, 10:37 am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
But, the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
Oh, just ignore V. He's not here to discuss, he's here to
pontificate.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
I have some sympathy with the theist view point here.
Its got to hurt when you have been dragged up by your parent to
believe that the only way you can stay on the "moral" straight and
narrow is to believe that god is watching you.
You miss out on all the pre marital sex, casual drug use (including
but not limited to alcohol), and general fun involved in growing up,
learning about yourself and the world; when some godless moral
degenerate comes along and points out its all been for nought...no
wonder they all commit crimes in what Americans call "red" states!
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
15 Aug 2007 02:05:19 AM |
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On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:53:15 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:51 am, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:37 am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
...> But, the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
...
The data speaks otherwise-- see my posting on this thread with links
to crime rates, HIV, etc. in a relatively high atheist society (Czech
Republic) compared to highly religious societies like the US. Your
statement "the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion
they generally stink as humansjust does not have hold merit." Where
are the facts you speak of? Certainly not the prison populations,
filled with primarily theists.
Oh, just ignore V. He's not here to discuss, he's here to pontificate.
IIRC, we've actually got a group plonk on him at the moment.
As to the subject matter, IMO these people are just denying the truth,
because they are too emotionally involved with their god concepts. The
Gregory Paul study you mentioned is recent, but the data about prisons
has been known for years.
It is *very* difficult to reason someone away from a position they've
taken for their emotional needs. And the next time they take you to
task for it, just keep reloading. Here's yet another study proving
your point:
http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/4/353
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
I forget the original phrasing, but the gist of it goes like this:
You cannot use rationality to argue someone out of a position that
they have not used rationality to get into.
I'm sure there is a far more elegant way to express this very true
concept.
.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
15 Aug 2007 02:28:36 AM |
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On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:35:19 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:53:15 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:51 am, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:37 am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
...> But, the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
...
The data speaks otherwise-- see my posting on this thread with links
to crime rates, HIV, etc. in a relatively high atheist society (Czech
Republic) compared to highly religious societies like the US. Your
statement "the facts are this - when people are devoid of religion
they generally stink as humansjust does not have hold merit." Where
are the facts you speak of? Certainly not the prison populations,
filled with primarily theists.
Oh, just ignore V. He's not here to discuss, he's here to pontificate.
IIRC, we've actually got a group plonk on him at the moment.
As to the subject matter, IMO these people are just denying the truth,
because they are too emotionally involved with their god concepts. The
Gregory Paul study you mentioned is recent, but the data about prisons
has been known for years.
It is *very* difficult to reason someone away from a position they've
taken for their emotional needs. And the next time they take you to
task for it, just keep reloading. Here's yet another study proving
your point:
http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/4/353
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
I forget the original phrasing, but the gist of it goes like this:
You cannot use rationality to argue someone out of a position that
they have not used rationality to get into.
I'm sure there is a far more elegant way to express this very true
concept.
You cannot reason a man out of a position he did not arrive at by way
of reason.
That's the way I've usually heard it said.
.
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| User: "satyr" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 10:03:28 AM |
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:07:38 -0000, "beowulf@nowhere.net"
<r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
I posted this here a year ago. The links are still good. Someone at
the time ran the data through a statistical program and found the
differences to be statistically significant at the 95% confidence
level.
God Kills.
Murder Rate % Atheist/
per 100,000* # countries Agnostic**
4 4 11
2 - 4 6 31
1 - 2 9 38
<1 3 49
The detailed data:
Murder Rate % Atheist/
Country per 100,000* Agnostic**
Mexico 17.58 5
Taiwan 8.52 24
United States 5.70 7
Argentina 4.51 6
Hungary 3.53 46
Finland 3.24 51
Portugal 2.98 9
Israel 2.32 37
Italy 2.25 15
Canada 2.16 25
Australia 1.86 25
New Zealand 1.47 22
United Kingdom 1.41 38
Switzerland 1.32 27
Sweden 1.30 77
Germany 1.17 37
France 1.14 54
Greece 1.14 16
Netherlands 1.11 42
Norway 0.97 58
Spain 0.95 24
Japan 0.62 65
* http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000055.html
** http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_45.html
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
13 Aug 2007 08:12:52 AM |
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:03:28 -0500, satyr <RsEaMtOyVrE@infidels.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:07:38 -0000, "beowulf@nowhere.net"
<r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
I posted this here a year ago. The links are still good. Someone at
the time ran the data through a statistical program and found the
differences to be statistically significant at the 95% confidence
level.
God Kills.
Murder Rate % Atheist/
per 100,000* # countries Agnostic**
4 4 11
2 - 4 6 31
1 - 2 9 38
<1 3 49
The detailed data:
Murder Rate % Atheist/
Country per 100,000* Agnostic**
Mexico 17.58 5
Taiwan 8.52 24
United States 5.70 7
Argentina 4.51 6
Hungary 3.53 46
Finland 3.24 51
Portugal 2.98 9
Israel 2.32 37
Italy 2.25 15
Canada 2.16 25
Australia 1.86 25
New Zealand 1.47 22
United Kingdom 1.41 38
Switzerland 1.32 27
Sweden 1.30 77
Germany 1.17 37
France 1.14 54
Greece 1.14 16
Netherlands 1.11 42
Norway 0.97 58
Spain 0.95 24
Japan 0.62 65
* http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000055.html
** http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_45.html
Same here.
I posted links of official US statistics that show WITHOUT a doubt,
taht theists are way over-represented in prison, and that atheists are
significantly under-represented.
.
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
16 Aug 2007 08:04:38 AM |
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On Aug 13, 9:12 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:03:28 -0500, satyr <RsEaMtOy...@infidels.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:07:38 -0000, "beow...@nowhere.net"
<r.oeler...@gmail.com> wrote:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
I posted this here a year ago. The links are still good. Someone at
the time ran the data through a statistical program and found the
differences to be statistically significant at the 95% confidence
level.
God Kills.
Murder Rate % Atheist/
per 100,000* # countries Agnostic**
4 4 11
2 - 4 6 31
1 - 2 9 38
<1 3 49
The detailed data:
Murder Rate % Atheist/
Country per 100,000* Agnostic**
Mexico 17.58 5
Taiwan 8.52 24
United States 5.70 7
Argentina 4.51 6
Hungary 3.53 46
Finland 3.24 51
Portugal 2.98 9
Israel 2.32 37
Italy 2.25 15
Canada 2.16 25
Australia 1.86 25
New Zealand 1.47 22
United Kingdom 1.41 38
Switzerland 1.32 27
Sweden 1.30 77
Germany 1.17 37
France 1.14 54
Greece 1.14 16
Netherlands 1.11 42
Norway 0.97 58
Spain 0.95 24
Japan 0.62 65
*http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000055.html
**http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_45.html
Same here.
I posted links of official US statistics that show WITHOUT a doubt,
taht theists are way over-represented in prison, and that atheists are
significantly under-represented.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't beleive it is a matter of religiosity cause crime, but a
correlation of religiousity with lack of education, and lack of
education with crime.
Hatter
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
16 Aug 2007 10:45:06 PM |
|
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On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 06:04:38 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
:
I don't beleive it is a matter of religiosity cause crime, but a
correlation of religiousity with lack of education, and lack of
education with crime.
I agree, up to a point.
The two result from a third compound cause, or a lack of it.
Although some religions directly prompt crime that would not have been
otherwise engaged in by the individual.
9/11 comes to mind.
.
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| User: "Hatter" |
|
| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
17 Aug 2007 08:06:03 AM |
|
|
On Aug 16, 11:45 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 06:04:38 -0700, Hatter <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
:
I don't beleive it is a matter of religiosity cause crime, but a
correlation of religiousity with lack of education, and lack of
education with crime.
I agree, up to a point.
The two result from a third compound cause, or a lack of it.
Although some religions directly prompt crime that would not have been
otherwise engaged in by the individual.
9/11 comes to mind.
Religion is the reason people were readily sucidal...it had little to
do, deep down why the hatred was there....that was tribal. Religion is
not a bad thing in itself; it just makes most of the worst tendencies
of man, and gives them justifcation for the most extreme actions
possible on those tendencies.
Hatter
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
17 Aug 2007 11:02:52 PM |
|
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On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 06:06:03 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 16, 11:45 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 06:04:38 -0700, Hatter <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
:
I don't beleive it is a matter of religiosity cause crime, but a
correlation of religiousity with lack of education, and lack of
education with crime.
I agree, up to a point.
The two result from a third compound cause, or a lack of it.
Although some religions directly prompt crime that would not have been
otherwise engaged in by the individual.
9/11 comes to mind.
Religion is the reason people were readily sucidal...it had little to
do, deep down why the hatred was there....that was tribal. Religion is
not a bad thing in itself; it just makes most of the worst tendencies
of man, and gives them justifcation for the most extreme actions
possible on those tendencies.
Religion IS a bad thing in itself.
It rewards superstitious modes of thought, and punishes realism.
.
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| User: "Don Martin" |
|
| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 10:13:16 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:07:38 -0000, "beowulf@nowhere.net"
<r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote:
I could use some help from fellow atheists here on an issue. I brought
up a recent study looking at crime rates among democratic nations and
their degree of religiosity; the study showed that the less religious
a society was the more crime (homicide, suicide, teen pregnancy, STDs,
etc).
Well, the religious person I showed the study to (who had brought up
the notion that without faith and religious morality and ethics would
be absent from a society, thus the need for faith, religion) has
brought up the low crime of Mormon and Amish societies, which I have
to admit makes a certain case.
I could use some thoughts, resources, links, etc for when I write back
to him. Thank you in advance.
You seem to have it exactly backwards. The chief finding was "In
general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate
with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD
infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous
democracies (Figures 1-9)."
In other words, the more religiousity, the more crime.
WOA* #2278
If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
__________
*Wicked Old Atheist
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 09:25:10 AM |
|
|
On Aug 12, 10:13 am, Don Martin <drdonmar...@comcast.net> wrote:
You seem to have it exactly backwards. The chief finding was "In
general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate
with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD
infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous
democracies (Figures 1-9)."
In other words, the more religiousity, the more crime.
I get it perfectly, I was the atheist that presented the study to my
religious friend. I get that more faith equals more crime. But read my
entire original post-- my friend countered that mormon and amish
communities in America, specifically, have low crime rates, which goes
against the "more religiosity more crime" conclusion of the study.
I have emailed him back, with an interesting notion: mormon and amish
communities are very close knit, keeping an eye on each other--
perhaps that is why they have lower crime than other non-mormon non-
amish communities. To be fair and compare apples to apples, I think
one would need to find a close knit atheist community (Czech Republic
towns?) and look at their crime rates. Also the "small town" situation
where everybody knows everybody. I think it might be less to do with
the mormon or amish faith than the fact they are so closely knit and
cultish and keep an eye on each other (and when everybody watches you
then you do not commit a crime, for fear of being an outcast in the
society--and that does not require faith or religion).
.
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| User: "de_menezes" |
|
| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
12 Aug 2007 09:57:17 AM |
|
|
"beowulf@nowhere.net" <r.oelerich@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186928710.884948.14280@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 12, 10:13 am, Don Martin <drdonmar...@comcast.net> wrote:
You seem to have it exactly backwards. The chief finding was "In
general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate
with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD
infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous
democracies (Figures 1-9)."
In other words, the more religiousity, the more crime.
I get it perfectly, I was the atheist that presented the study to my
religious friend. I get that more faith equals more crime. But read my
entire original post-- my friend countered that mormon and amish
communities in America, specifically, have low crime rates, which goes
against the "more religiosity more crime" conclusion of the study.
I have emailed him back, with an interesting notion: mormon and amish
communities are very close knit, keeping an eye on each other--
perhaps that is why they have lower crime than other non-mormon non-
amish communities. To be fair and compare apples to apples, I think
one would need to find a close knit atheist community (Czech Republic
towns?) and look at their crime rates. Also the "small town" situation
where everybody knows everybody. I think it might be less to do with
the mormon or amish faith than the fact they are so closely knit and
cultish and keep an eye on each other (and when everybody watches you
then you do not commit a crime, for fear of being an outcast in the
society--and that does not require faith or religion).
Great thread. In which little hypocrites, also known as atheists, are trying
to imply that religion is the only reason for crime. When in fact, that is not
true.
There is no difference between atheists and theists when it comes to crime.
They both will do crime when in certain situations.
But, what else could have I expected from atheists than to blame religion for
crime, when after all... atheists are 'more intelligent' and more law obiding.
Very low of you, guys. Very, very low.
But, nevermind. It only shows what kind of people you guys are. And that
is something worthy and needs to be cherished. because, that can't be found
in any of the books. And, after all, no one will tell you about it. You need to
see it for yourself.
Thanks, atheists.
.
|
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| User: "Auntie Lib" |
|
| Title: Re: crime: atheists v. religious |
17 Aug 2007 02:49:49 PM |
|
|
"de_menezes" wrote:
Great thread. In which little hypocrites, also known as atheists, are trying
to imply that religion is the only reason for crime. When in fact, that is not
true.
No, we are merely pointing out that the OPPOSITE is not true. Theists
are always trying to claim that more religion equals less crime. (You
know, if you make kids study the ten commandments and pray in school,
they won't do bad things.)
We are pointing out the fact that religion has the opposite affect
that theists claim: the more religious a society claims to be, the
higher the crime rate. It is simply an interesting finding; we aren't
making any judgments on why it is what it is.
Keep up the good work, though, representing the theist side. The
example you set is stellar! (Any day now, you're sure to have a
convert... somewhere.)
elizabeth
aa#2098
EAC Director of Useless Endeavors
Vice-Chairman Of The Committee On Wasted Time
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"I was born with a skeptical mind. Now I ask you, is that fair?
If God gives me a skeptical nature and you an accepting one, then
you're going to be a believer and I'm not. If belief is a ticket to
eternal happiness, I'm definitely handicapped. God gives me a mind
capable of asking questions and what? I'm damned if I use it?"
F. Paul Wilson "The Haunted Air"
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
.
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