| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Fredric L. Rice" |
| Date: |
17 Jun 2004 08:52:05 PM |
| Object: |
Dahmer was a Creationist! |
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial killer
was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for 13 books
from the Institute of Creation Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ )
after which -- in the father's words, he "Turned away from being an
evolutionist into a Creationist and then into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started handing
out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up: his
parents are frocking cult morons.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
"Easy everyone, it's just the chocolate milk talking." -- Miles Long
.
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| User: "Harlequin" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
17 Jun 2004 09:10:28 PM |
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(Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial
killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for
13 books from the Institute of Creation Research cult (
http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the father's words, he
"Turned away from being an evolutionist into a Creationist and then
into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started
handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up:
his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"
"...To deny that basic concepts of historical method with respect to
evolution is worse than just denying science; it is denying simple
common sense. Down that road lies only solipsism or schizophrenia,
neither of which can be used for examination of the outside world."
- Daniel Harper
.
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| User: "Alfred Green" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 02:59:09 AM |
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"Harlequin" <usenet@cox.net> enscribed:
{3}
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live,
Well, that says it all. I caught the program as I was surfing after the
ballgame{1} and watched for a few minutes until my stomach curdled{2} Mr.
King exhibited an even more sycophantic performance than usual. How he (and
CNN) can provide a platform for such human detritus continues to amaze me.
I ended up watching FOXNEWS, which I seldom do, but even that was a welcome
relief.
LKL is definitely in the same category as the WeaklyWirledNews and
WingNutDaily.
Alfred
{1} Diamondbacks finally whupped the Yankees, first time since 2001
{2} Just the contents, actually. A few minutes more and I may have ripped
out my intestines and thrown them at the screen.
{3} I think I got the attributions wrong; I'm too lazy right now to fix
them. Sorry.
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 11:45:15 AM |
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"Alfred Green" <nu8i@cox.net> wrote:
"Harlequin" <usenet@cox.net> enscribed:
{3}
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live,
Well, that says it all. I caught the program as I was surfing after the
ballgame{1} and watched for a few minutes until my stomach curdled{2} Mr.
King exhibited an even more sycophantic performance than usual. How he (and
CNN) can provide a platform for such human detritus continues to amaze me.
I ended up watching FOXNEWS, which I seldom do, but even that was a welcome
relief.
LKL is definitely in the same category as the WeaklyWirledNews and
WingNutDaily.
Agree completely. The parents -- the people responsible for Dahmer's
upbringing and the people arguably responsible for his cannibalism --
tried to blame the scientific fact of evolution on the consequences of
their son's upbringing.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
"Easy everyone, it's just the chocolate milk talking." -- Miles Long
.
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 11:45:19 AM |
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"Alfred Green" <nu8i@cox.net> wrote:
"Harlequin" <usenet@cox.net> enscribed:
{3}
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live,
Well, that says it all. I caught the program as I was surfing after the
ballgame{1} and watched for a few minutes until my stomach curdled{2} Mr.
King exhibited an even more sycophantic performance than usual. How he (and
CNN) can provide a platform for such human detritus continues to amaze me.
I ended up watching FOXNEWS, which I seldom do, but even that was a welcome
relief.
LKL is definitely in the same category as the WeaklyWirledNews and
WingNutDaily.
Agree completely. The parents -- the people responsible for Dahmer's
upbringing and the people arguably responsible for his cannibalism --
tried to blame the scientific fact of evolution on the consequences of
their son's upbringing.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
"Easy everyone, it's just the chocolate milk talking." -- Miles Long
.
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| User: "Rick Russell" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
21 Jun 2004 10:17:39 AM |
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In article <10d8rfkkkn33a59@corp.supernews.com>,
Fredric L. Rice <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote:
Agree completely. The parents -- the people responsible for
Dahmer's upbringing and the people arguably responsible for his
cannibalism -- tried to blame the scientific fact of evolution on
the consequences of their son's upbringing.
Although Dahmer's parents may have been creationists, there is no
evidence to suggest that anything in Dahmer's upbringing turned him
into a serial killer. His childhood was very normal, and he describes
strange compulsions to hurt people from a very young age.
Dahmer was a classic example of "criminally insane".
Rick R.
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| User: "Clayton Kicking Asses and Taking Names" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
21 Jun 2004 08:21:53 PM |
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"Rick Russell" <rickr@is.rice.edu> wrote in message
news:cb6u9d$o17$1@joe.rice.edu...
In article <10d8rfkkkn33a59@corp.supernews.com>,
Fredric L. Rice <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote:
Agree completely. The parents -- the people responsible for
Dahmer's upbringing and the people arguably responsible for his
cannibalism -- tried to blame the scientific fact of evolution on
the consequences of their son's upbringing.
Although Dahmer's parents may have been creationists, there is no
evidence to suggest that anything in Dahmer's upbringing turned him
into a serial killer.
He was taught homosexuality was evil...eventually hating himself, what he
was and those he found homosexual desire for and pleasure with...all you
need do it look at his crimes to see how that affected him. He was also
raised in a cold, depressing, emotionally and sexually repressed
environment. His upbringing may not have been THE reason he became what he
did, but it sure has hell had a big effect.
There were typically deceptive claims by censorship happy Christians blaming
homosexual porn for his crimes. They said that because he was obsessed with
violent S and M magazines and that this was evidence that all pornography
was evil and was responsible for creating serial killers. Of course they
usually left out the part where he had actually killled twice before moving
to a new state where that material was available. Before that he had never
even known that it existed, due to his sheltered upbringing.
His childhood was very normal, and he describes
strange compulsions to hurt people from a very young age.
Dahmer was a classic example of "criminally insane".
Rick R.
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| User: "Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 10:45:45 AM |
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Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns950BD617CB52usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial
killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for
13 books from the Institute of Creation Research cult (
http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the father's words, he
"Turned away from being an evolutionist into a Creationist and then
into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started
handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up:
his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
The OP is arguably the sort of person for whom the term "loose cannon"
was coined.
The way I read that, Pa Dahmer is saying that his son got religion
while in prison for his crimes -- the classic, touching tale of the
jailhouse conversion, coupled with the usual Creationist smear that he
committed his rather spectacular crimes while (and because of) being
an Evilooshunist.
I'm not clear on whether or not Pa Dahmer was religious during
Jeffrey's childhood (which is where you'd really need to start to
support a charge that Creationism or Fundamentalism are in any way to
blame for the way he turned out).
-- Kizhé
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| User: "Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 06:47:38 PM |
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"Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" <lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:47b867ea.0406180746.43f519ce@posting.google.com...
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<Xns950BD617CB52usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial
killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for
13 books from the Institute of Creation Research cult (
http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the father's words, he
"Turned away from being an evolutionist into a Creationist and then
into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started
handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up:
his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
The OP is arguably the sort of person for whom the term "loose cannon"
was coined.
The way I read that, Pa Dahmer is saying that his son got religion
while in prison for his crimes -- the classic, touching tale of the
jailhouse conversion, coupled with the usual Creationist smear that he
committed his rather spectacular crimes while (and because of) being
an Evilooshunist.
I'm not clear on whether or not Pa Dahmer was religious during
Jeffrey's childhood (which is where you'd really need to start to
support a charge that Creationism or Fundamentalism are in any way to
blame for the way he turned out).
He was. Jeffrey was raised in a depressing repressed religious environment.
One of the things that fucked him up so much was repeatedly being taught how
evil homosexuality was...in effect being taught to hate what he
was...believing that he was evil...so he carried it through and made it
true!
.
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| User: "Harlequin" |
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| Title: Quote mining Dahmer -- Was: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 07:40:22 PM |
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"Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist"
<cjfat@BLOCKINGOFTHESPAMphonyemail.com> wrote in
news:40d37f56$0$16104$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
"Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" <lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:47b867ea.0406180746.43f519ce@posting.google.com...
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<Xns950BD617CB52usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's
parents were being interviewed. The father said that life for
the serial killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had
Jeff send away for 13 books from the Institute of Creation
Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the
father's words, he "Turned away from being an evolutionist into a
Creationist and then into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son
started handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed
up: his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
The OP is arguably the sort of person for whom the term "loose
cannon" was coined.
The way I read that, Pa Dahmer is saying that his son got religion
while in prison for his crimes -- the classic, touching tale of the
jailhouse conversion, coupled with the usual Creationist smear that
he committed his rather spectacular crimes while (and because of)
being an Evilooshunist.
I'm not clear on whether or not Pa Dahmer was religious during
Jeffrey's childhood (which is where you'd really need to start to
support a charge that Creationism or Fundamentalism are in any way to
blame for the way he turned out).
He was. Jeffrey was raised in a depressing repressed religious
environment. One of the things that fucked him up so much was
repeatedly being taught how evil homosexuality was...in effect being
taught to hate what he was...believing that he was evil...so he
carried it through and made it true!
Does anyone know where there is documentation for this?
Given that the creationists have quote mined Dahmer for this,
it might good have an ironclade case that Jeffrey Dahmer was
raised as a YEC/fundamentalist Christian.
Here is an example of AiG quoting mining:
‘If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to,
then--then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to
keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I
always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just
came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it,
there is nothing...’
Jeffrey Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips, _Dateline_ NBC,
Nov. 29, 1994.
Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Tools/Quotes/dahmer.asp
Also: http://www.answersingenesis.org/cec/study_guides/answersSG4.pdf
Daddy is listed by AiG on their list of scientists which should be no
surprise give the ICC paper discussed in this thread:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"
"...To deny that basic concepts of historical method with respect to
evolution is worse than just denying science; it is denying simple
common sense. Down that road lies only solipsism or schizophrenia,
neither of which can be used for examination of the outside world."
- Daniel Harper
.
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| User: "Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Quote mining Dahmer -- Was: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 01:37:50 AM |
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"Harlequin" <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns950CC655C4639usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6...
"Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist"
<cjfat@BLOCKINGOFTHESPAMphonyemail.com> wrote in
news:40d37f56$0$16104$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
"Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" <lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:47b867ea.0406180746.43f519ce@posting.google.com...
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<Xns950BD617CB52usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's
parents were being interviewed. The father said that life for
the serial killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had
Jeff send away for 13 books from the Institute of Creation
Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the
father's words, he "Turned away from being an evolutionist into a
Creationist and then into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son
started handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed
up: his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
The OP is arguably the sort of person for whom the term "loose
cannon" was coined.
The way I read that, Pa Dahmer is saying that his son got religion
while in prison for his crimes -- the classic, touching tale of the
jailhouse conversion, coupled with the usual Creationist smear that
he committed his rather spectacular crimes while (and because of)
being an Evilooshunist.
I'm not clear on whether or not Pa Dahmer was religious during
Jeffrey's childhood (which is where you'd really need to start to
support a charge that Creationism or Fundamentalism are in any way to
blame for the way he turned out).
He was. Jeffrey was raised in a depressing repressed religious
environment. One of the things that fucked him up so much was
repeatedly being taught how evil homosexuality was...in effect being
taught to hate what he was...believing that he was evil...so he
carried it through and made it true!
Does anyone know where there is documentation for this?
Given that the creationists have quote mined Dahmer for this,
it might good have an ironclade case that Jeffrey Dahmer was
raised as a YEC/fundamentalist Christian.
I don't know if he was raised a YEC, but there is plenty of documentation
that he was raised a Christian by repressed religious parents.
.
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| User: "Harlequin" |
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| Title: Re: Quote mining Dahmer -- Was: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 06:42:12 PM |
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"Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist" <cjfat@BLOCKINGOFTHESPAMphonyemail.com>
wrote in news:40d3df88$0$16107$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
"Harlequin" <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns950CC655C4639usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6...
"Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist"
<cjfat@BLOCKINGOFTHESPAMphonyemail.com> wrote in
news:40d37f56$0$16104$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
"Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" <lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:47b867ea.0406180746.43f519ce@posting.google.com...
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<Xns950BD617CB52usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's
parents were being interviewed. The father said that life for
the serial killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had
Jeff send away for 13 books from the Institute of Creation
Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the
father's words, he "Turned away from being an evolutionist into a
Creationist and then into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son
started handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed
up: his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
The OP is arguably the sort of person for whom the term "loose
cannon" was coined.
The way I read that, Pa Dahmer is saying that his son got religion
while in prison for his crimes -- the classic, touching tale of the
jailhouse conversion, coupled with the usual Creationist smear that
he committed his rather spectacular crimes while (and because of)
being an Evilooshunist.
I'm not clear on whether or not Pa Dahmer was religious during
Jeffrey's childhood (which is where you'd really need to start to
support a charge that Creationism or Fundamentalism are in any way to
blame for the way he turned out).
He was. Jeffrey was raised in a depressing repressed religious
environment. One of the things that fucked him up so much was
repeatedly being taught how evil homosexuality was...in effect being
taught to hate what he was...believing that he was evil...so he
carried it through and made it true!
Does anyone know where there is documentation for this?
Given that the creationists have quote mined Dahmer for this,
it might good have an ironclade case that Jeffrey Dahmer was
raised as a YEC/fundamentalist Christian.
I don't know if he was raised a YEC, but there is plenty of documentation
that he was raised a Christian by repressed religious parents.
Then if sources can be listed that document that, then we have
a potential entry for the Quote Mine Project. A bit different
way to misuse a quote. Of course it goes down to exploiting
what people don't know.
Chris mentioned that the quote attributed to the son is attributed
to the father by some source. That would have to be looked into
as well.
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"
"...To deny that basic concepts of historical method with respect to
evolution is worse than just denying science; it is denying simple
common sense. Down that road lies only solipsism or schizophrenia,
neither of which can be used for examination of the outside world."
- Daniel Harper
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Quote mining Dahmer -- Was: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 09:49:29 PM |
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On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Harlequin wrote:
He was. Jeffrey was raised in a depressing repressed religious
environment. One of the things that fucked him up so much was
repeatedly being taught how evil homosexuality was...in effect being
taught to hate what he was...believing that he was evil...so he
carried it through and made it true!
Does anyone know where there is documentation for this?
The father admits Dahmer was a homosexual, but on Larry King he claimed it
was being propositioned by a gay which triggered Jeffrey's gayness.
Given that the creationists have quote mined Dahmer for this,
it might good have an ironclade case that Jeffrey Dahmer was
raised as a YEC/fundamentalist Christian.
Did you see my previous posts about the creationist father's paper about
"petroglypths" [sic] ? And his being charged with spousal abuse by two
different wives?
I think Jeffrey was an abused kid.
Here is an example of AiG quoting mining:
‘If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to,
then--then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to
keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I
always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just
came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it,
there is nothing...’
Jeffrey Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips, _Dateline_ NBC,
Nov. 29, 1994.
Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Tools/Quotes/dahmer.asp
Also: http://www.answersingenesis.org/cec/study_guides/answersSG4.pdf
I don't think there is any evidence that murder or gayness occurs in
higher proportion to folks who understand the scientific theory of
evolution and consider it valid.
Daddy is listed by AiG on their list of scientists which should be no
surprise give the ICC paper discussed in this thread:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/
I have a copy of the "petroglypth" article in its original form. It was a
paper written by a total of seven creationists: L.Dahmer, D.Kouznetsov,
A.Ivenov, J.Hall, J.Whitmore, G.Detwiler, H.Miller. These authors are
cited on creationist sites, as is the petroglyph paper, but some clever
creationist has corrected the spelling of petroglyph in electronic
references.
Apparently, when originally written and included in a conference
book(let), it got by them that throughout the four page article about
petroglyphs they misspelled the word. How smart is that?
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 11:39:36 AM |
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Lieutenant Kizhe Katson wrote:
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns950BD617CB52usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up:
his parents are frocking cult morons.
The way I read that, Pa Dahmer is saying that his son got religion
while in prison for his crimes -- the classic, touching tale of the
jailhouse conversion, coupled with the usual Creationist smear that he
committed his rather spectacular crimes while (and because of) being
an Evilooshunist.
I think that is right.
I'm not clear on whether or not Pa Dahmer was religious during
Jeffrey's childhood (which is where you'd really need to start to
support a charge that Creationism or Fundamentalism are in any way to
blame for the way he turned out).
I think it is the case that "Pa Dahmer" was religious during Jeffrey's
childhood. The answer probably lies in "A Father's Story" by Lionel
Dahmer.
A review of the work by Will Self says:
"Lionel Dahmer's analysis of his hopelessly flawed relationship with his
son Jeffrey is particularly unpleasant for a parent to read. It might be
possible to dismiss 'A Father's Story' as just a nother example of the
breast-beating occasioned when someone lights on a newfound jargon to
explain his life mistakes ('denial' is made much of in this book), were it
not for the palpable pain and despair that gusts from the text. ... Lionel
Dahmer comes across--as he presumably intends to--as an emotionally and
spiritually absent parent. A chemist who describes his emotional makeup as
'a broad, flat plain,' he buried himself in the laboratory where 'the
ironclad laws of science governed,' rather than face up to the 'chaotic
world' of human relationships and to the impact that his disintegrating
marriage to a seriously depressed woman was having on his younger son."
Now, take that for what it's worth. An egregious error is the claim that
Jeffrey was "his younger son." He was not. David was the younger son, by
seven years.
The personna presented by Lionel on the Larry King show certainly didn't
appear to be that of a spousal abuser, but the records exist which
indicate he was such.
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "Dick C" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 06:57:14 PM |
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Carol Lee Smith wrote in talk.origins
The personna presented by Lionel on the Larry King show certainly didn't
appear to be that of a spousal abuser, but the records exist which
indicate he was such.
I am not sure what you think a spousal abuser is supposed to look like,
especially on Larry King, but I have found that the abusive spouses
and parents oftentimes don't seem like abusive people, on the other hand
sometimes the people that you might think would be aren't.
--
***** #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 09:36:29 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, ***** C wrote:
Carol Lee Smith wrote in talk.origins
The personna presented by Lionel on the Larry King show certainly didn't
appear to be that of a spousal abuser, but the records exist which
indicate he was such.
I am not sure what you think a spousal abuser is supposed to look like,
Look like is different from personna presented.
especially on Larry King, but I have found that the abusive spouses
and parents oftentimes don't seem like abusive people, on the other hand
sometimes the people that you might think would be aren't.
I do believe that is probably true.
A friend of Jeffrey's accused Lionel Dahmer of sexually abusing Jeffrey.
I would expect that is something else which one wouldn't necessarily tell
by demeanor *or* physical appearance.
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "Dick C" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 10:05:19 AM |
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Carol Lee Smith wrote in talk.origins
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, ***** C wrote:
Carol Lee Smith wrote in talk.origins
The personna presented by Lionel on the Larry King show certainly
didn't
appear to be that of a spousal abuser, but the records exist which
indicate he was such.
I am not sure what you think a spousal abuser is supposed to look like,
Look like is different from personna presented.
Look like is how we see someone, not just the physical appearance, but
the entire personna. I have met many men who abused their wives and
children, and of those only one would I have been able to guess that
he was that way. Mainly because he put everything in terms of who he
could beat up.
Spousal abuse seems to be tied to an inability to properly manage
your anger, or control yourself when angry. Which, in itself, is a mark
of immaturity. And most of the men that I have known who beat their wives
were young, married at age 18 or 19, and they did the abusing while
still young.
especially on Larry King, but I have found that the abusive spouses
and parents oftentimes don't seem like abusive people, on the other hand
sometimes the people that you might think would be aren't.
I do believe that is probably true.
A friend of Jeffrey's accused Lionel Dahmer of sexually abusing Jeffrey.
I would expect that is something else which one wouldn't necessarily tell
by demeanor *or* physical appearance.
Probably not.
--
***** #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
20 Jun 2004 08:10:29 AM |
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Carol Lee Smith wrote:
I think it is the case that "Pa Dahmer" was religious during Jeffrey's
childhood. The answer probably lies in "A Father's Story" by Lionel
Dahmer.
I have a copy of that. There's an ad for _I'm OK, You're OK_
facing the last page.
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
"It's a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 11:45:14 AM |
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Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote:
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial
killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for
13 books from the Institute of Creation Research cult (
http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the father's words, he
"Turned away from being an evolutionist into a Creationist and then
into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started
handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up:
his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
Yes.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
"Easy everyone, it's just the chocolate milk talking." -- Miles Long
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 11:11:34 AM |
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:45:45 +0000 (UTC),
(Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote:
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns950BD617CB52usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in
news:10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial
killer was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for
13 books from the Institute of Creation Research cult (
http://www.icrcult.org/ ) after which -- in the father's words, he
"Turned away from being an evolutionist into a Creationist and then
into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started
handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up:
his parents are frocking cult morons.
Is there some kind of this reason for this shameful _ad hominem_?
The OP is arguably the sort of person for whom the term "loose cannon"
was coined.
The way I read that, Pa Dahmer is saying that his son got religion
while in prison for his crimes -- the classic, touching tale of the
jailhouse conversion, coupled with the usual Creationist smear that he
committed his rather spectacular crimes while (and because of) being
an Evilooshunist.
I'm not clear on whether or not Pa Dahmer was religious during
Jeffrey's childhood (which is where you'd really need to start to
support a charge that Creationism or Fundamentalism are in any way to
blame for the way he turned out).
People aren't "evolutionist" outside the paranoid fantasies of
fundamentalists. They don't "become creationists" unless they are
already Christian fundamentalists. And they don't "then become
Christian" because they were already Christian to grant the very
premises on which creationism rests.
-- Kizhé
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| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 08:26:20 AM |
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(Fredric L. Rice) wrote in message news:<10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com>...
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so
screwed up: his parents are frocking cult morons.
Fact is, Fred the Shrill Shill, that the children of most "frocking
cult morons" aren't serial killers. Perhaps you should look into
breast feeding as the reason he "was so screwed up." After all,
"marijuana may lead to heroin, but mother's milk leads to
_everything_," as some guy named George said.
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
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| User: "Black Helicopter Pilot" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 09:52:39 PM |
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"Hector Plasmic" <hec@hectorplasmic.com> wrote in message
news:2c0a0281.0406180527.58119eba@posting.google.com...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in message
news:<10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com>...
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so
screwed up: his parents are frocking cult morons.
Fact is, Fred the Shrill Shill, that the children of most "frocking
cult morons" aren't serial killers. Perhaps you should look into
breast feeding as the reason he "was so screwed up." After all,
"marijuana may lead to heroin, but mother's milk leads to
_everything_," as some guy named George said.
Fred's like the crazy uncle every family has. Uncle Freddy's tolerated, but
he says a lot of crazy ***** and the other family members privately wish
he would shut his cakehole for once in his life.
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| User: "Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 11:50:41 PM |
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(Hector Plasmic) wrote in message news:<2c0a0281.0406180527.58119eba@posting.google.com>...
REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) wrote in message news:<10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com>...
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so
screwed up: his parents are frocking cult morons.
Fact is, Fred the Shrill Shill, that the children of most "frocking
cult morons" aren't serial killers. Perhaps you should look into
breast feeding as the reason he "was so screwed up." After all,
"marijuana may lead to heroin, but mother's milk leads to
_everything_," as some guy named George said.
We have some fairly good long-time family friends (i.e., my wife and I
have known them since we were all teenagers, we went to each others'
weddings, etc.) They are fundamentalists, and in all likelihood
Creationists (there seems to be tacit agreement not to mention the
subject, ever since I referred to the ICR as "a bunch of liars",
c.1995). The three kids, now on the verge of adulthood, are
intelligent, polite, generally pretty nice kids, and give every sign
of being well-adjusted (this despite the fact that their father died
of cancer about 12 years ago. They are also (as far as can be judged
by academic acheivement or personal conversation) very bright. I
rather doubt that any of them will turn into serial killers.
I mention this only in order to provide a contrary data point.
Whatever turned Dahmer into a monster was not likely in any simple way
a direct result of Fundamentalist theology. There seems to have been
a family pathology at work, of the sort that is likely to screw up any
child, regardless of the religious background. Arguably, it is a
*failure* of the parents' faith -- one that, whatever its other
faults, strongly teaches love and devotion to one's family -- that
they did not address their problems, but allowed them to gangrenize.
(Of course, I'd have to acutally read one or more of the books about
Dahmer to have anything like an informed opinion. No thank you, I've
already got more than enough books that rate considerably higher on my
interest list than diving into the cesspool of a mind like that).
-- Kizhe
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| User: "SReeseMe" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 05:54:54 PM |
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Subject: Dahmer was a Creationist!
From: (Fredric L. Rice)
Date: 06/17/2004 9:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com>
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial killer
was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for 13 books
from the Institute of Creation Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ )
after which -- in the father's words, he "Turned away from being an
evolutionist into a Creationist and then into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started handing
out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up: his
parents are frocking cult morons.
Wasn't Dahmer killed in prision?
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| User: "Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 06:49:25 PM |
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"SReeseMe" <sreeseme@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040618185454.11511.00000191@mb-m11.aol.com...
Subject: Dahmer was a Creationist!
From: (Fredric L. Rice)
Date: 06/17/2004 9:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <10d4inlqv2blf84@corp.supernews.com>
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial killer
was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for 13 books
from the Institute of Creation Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ )
after which -- in the father's words, he "Turned away from being an
evolutionist into a Creationist and then into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started
handing
out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up: his
parents are frocking cult morons.
Wasn't Dahmer killed in prision?
Beaten to death by the brother of one of his victims.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 09:58:25 PM |
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On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist wrote:
Wasn't Dahmer killed in prision?
Beaten to death by the brother of one of his victims.
Yes, he was bludgeoned with a metal rod/bar by another inmate who was
mentally ill, according to reports, but that individual was not a relative
of a Dahmer victim, as far as I know. This is the first time I have ever
seen anyone claim such a thing. If you have a referent, I would certainly
like to see it.
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| User: "Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
19 Jun 2004 01:41:27 AM |
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"Carol Lee Smith" <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040618215605.7095D-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu...
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Carpe Clayton...Seize The Atheist wrote:
Wasn't Dahmer killed in prision?
Beaten to death by the brother of one of his victims.
Yes, he was bludgeoned with a metal rod/bar by another inmate who was
mentally ill, according to reports, but that individual was not a relative
of a Dahmer victim, as far as I know. This is the first time I have ever
seen anyone claim such a thing. If you have a referent, I would certainly
like to see it.
I must admit I was going from memory on that one, but I'm pretty sure the
assailant was either the brother of one of his victims or acting on his
behalf, but I could be wrong. The thought of going digging through 20+
scrap books for the article is enough to make me concede the point. I'm so
lazy!!
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 06:25:37 PM |
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On 18 Jun 2004, SReeseMe wrote:
Wasn't Dahmer killed in prision?
No. He was killed in prison.
He was bludgeoned to death in a double murder. The other inmate was Jesse
Anderson who lived in my county. Jesse killed his wife in the parking lot
of a regional mall after going to the theatre. He said they were accosted
by a black man. The knife was traced to him. They were parents of two
little kids.
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." --
Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "Cardinal Chunder" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 10:08:57 AM |
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Fredric L. Rice wrote:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed. The father said that life for the serial killer
was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for 13 books
from the Institute of Creation Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ )
after which -- in the father's words, he "Turned away from being an
evolutionist into a Creationist and then into a Christian."
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started handing
out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up: his
parents are frocking cult morons.
But he accepted Jeeh-zus into his life. So now he's in heaven looking
down on his sinful, unrepentant and partly cannibalised victims
suffering an eternity in the fiery pits of hell.
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| User: "Mike Ruskai" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 10:20:58 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:08:57 +0000 (UTC), Cardinal Chunder wrote:
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
[snip]
But he accepted Jeeh-zus into his life. So now he's in heaven looking
down on his sinful, unrepentant and partly cannibalised victims
suffering an eternity in the fiery pits of hell.
Partly cannibalized victim, you mean. All he ever did was take one small
bite out of one guy's liver.
Yet he's remembered primarily as a cannibal, while the other aspects of
his murders are much more disturbing.
--
- Mike
Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
18 Jun 2004 04:45:24 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 01:52:05 +0000 (UTC),
(Fredric L. Rice) thought hard and said:
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed up: his
parents are frocking cult morons.
That, or he was an evil, immoral evilutionist.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tviett are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
17 Jun 2004 09:30:24 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Fredric L. Rice wrote:
Just a couple of minutes ago on Larry King Live, Jeff Dahmer's parents
were being interviewed.
Together? On the same show? They have been divorced for some time.
Jeffrey's mother's name was Joyce Flint Dahmer.
The father said that life for the serial killer
was difficult until he -- the father -- had Jeff send away for 13 books
from the Institute of Creation Research cult ( http://www.icrcult.org/ )
after which -- in the father's words, he "Turned away from being an
evolutionist into a Creationist and then into a Christian."
Yes. Lionel Dahmer is a creationist. He and six other individuals wrote
a Report on Chemical Analysis and Further Dating of Dinosaur Bones and
Dinosaur Petroglypths. Please note the spelling. It is not my error.
This report by seven creationists didn't even get the spelling of
petroglyphs correct in a report about petroglyphs. The word is misspelled
throughout.
How bad is that?
I have a copy of this report. It is cited here by some creationists, but
they had the good sense to spell petroglyph correctly:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr2003/r&r0302a.htm and
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/hsc0305.pdf
The father then went on to say that their serial killer son started
handing out Creationist occult tracks around the prison.
Now we have a very good reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was so screwed
up: his parents are frocking cult morons.
As I said before, the woman you saw is not Jeffrey's mother. Also of
interest:
From the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:
"The current wife and former wife of Lionel H. Dahmer, the father of
Jeffrey L. Dahmer, each filed complaints with Ohio police stemming from
domestic quarrels, records show.
"Joyce Flint Dahmer, Lionel's first wife and Jeffrey's mother, called
police to Jeffrey Dahmer's boyhood home in Bath Township on August 6,
1980, two years after the couple's divorce became final to report that
Lionel Dahmer had attacked her verbally and with his hands during a
quarrel, according to a police report obtained Tuesday by the Journal.
"Bath Township Capt. John Gardner, who went to the Dahmer home that night,
said there were no signs of injury and no one was arrested.
"In the second incident, Lionel Dahmer's second wife, Shari, went to the
Bath Township Police Department on Feb. 12, 1985, and filled out a report
saying that Lionel Dahmer had assaulted her on Feb. 9 at a home the couple
rented after selling Jefrey Dahmer's boyhood home."
So, not only was Dahmer raised by a creationist nut, he was raised by an
abusive husband who was possibly an abusive father.
After Dahmer's death, Joyce and Lionel had a knock-down, drag-out fuss
over Jeff's brain which ended up in court.
A very interesting story could be told by David, Jeffrey's brother, if he
ever comes forward.
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Dahmer was a Creationist! |
17 Jun 2004 09:40:55 PM |
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One more thing.
Lionel Dahmer wrote a book. Don't know if he mentioned that on Larry King
(it is on here at 11 PM tonight, so I haven't seen it yet).
The book is A FATHER'S STORY. You might want to research that.
Also from The Milwaukee Journal:
"Shari Dahmer said in an interview that Jeffrey was 'never treated the
same as his younger brother.' She said favoritism was shown to David who
was everything Lionel Dahmer had hoped Jeffrey would be. ...
"Of his son, Lionel Dahmer said: 'He was always secretive. He would never
open up to me, but then, sometimes he would. I would not say it was a
good relationship. I tried my damnedest to instill interest in trying to
become interestd in something in life, education, tried to get him to
accept Christ.'
"Lionel Dahmer is a member of the Church of Christ, a fundamentalist
denomination.
"Not much is known about Jeffrey's Dahmer's relationship with his
biological mother. State probation and parole officials noted last March
that Dahmer told them that the woman had telephoned him after five years
of silence. They planned to be in touch.
"'What was the Pain?'
"Assessing Dahmer's life, the mental health professional said: 'What
happened to him? What was the pain? What was the alienation? Clearly he
was a very alienated man personally, and socially. I don't think he felt
comfortable with himself, with people."
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