On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 23:11:50 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:

Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.06.00.15.896577@ms74.hinet.net>...

No. The bishops of the CCP-boot-licking Catholic Church (my
translation) are chosen the CCP.

The patriotic catholic church choose their own bishops.

Crap. Now you will telling us the members of the permitted "labor unions"
in the PRC can choose their own leaders.

The Vatican boot licking bishops are hand picked by a dictator.

Agree.

Jim, you like to BS about democracy. The Vatican is a dictatorship.

Agree. But, so what. Membership is voluntary. I don't belong to it. Nor
would I if it were democratic.

The imperialists come in different forms, some carry guns, some carry
bible and some call themselves human rights activists.

How about people who rob the Chinese in the name of the CCP? Can I call
them "imperialist" or should I call them "fascist thugs"?

The religious ideas of the RCC (and of all organized religions) are
silly and childish.

CCP didn't say that. lol

No, I did.

What about the Presbyterian Church of CSB?

Silly and superstitious. The world would be a better place without
organized religion or silly beliefs in heaven and god.

But the normal RCC which exists without problems in virtually every
country of the world, is among the religions outlawed by the CCP.

The revulution was fought to rid China of the imperialists in what
ever form. The Vatican was one of them and don't you forget that.
Most gov in the world are afraid of the Vatican dispite of their
meddling in politics. Mao and CCP were exceptionally brave people.

Yes, right. Shooting unarmed Chinese is a very brave action.

You are going to start another round of TAM. I am trying to focus on
Falujar at the moment.

Also evil.

Putting 70 year old bishops in prison is a very brave action.

When politicians take on a religious image, they become very difficult
to defeat. Examples are: Bin Laden, GW Bush, The Vaticans, the Dalai
Lama. It takes courage to defeat them.

But not violence.

Torturing nuns is a very brave action. Yes, of course. [Sarcasm, in
case you didn't notice.]

These are lies irrespective of how or who are telling them.

I wish it were true that nuns were not tortured in modern China.

BTW, I seem to remember you acknowledging that torture of nuns did occur
during the Cultural Revolution.

Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.56.11.258024@ms74.hinet.net>...

Participating in an Roman Catholic Church activity is a crime (and
this is NOT a secret, Mr. Yu confirmed it, for example). It is
punishable by long prison sentences. Many RCC bishops were sentenced
to (basically) life in prison (considering their age).

I just got back from an extended trip to Zhenzhou, and when a lady in a
village I visited asked if I was saved, I noticed her Christian spring
poster(Tsun Lian) that said "God loves people"(Shen Ai Se Ren) produly
displayed on her door. Matter of fact I saw serveral of these Christian
spring posters thruought the village.

I asked if I can go to chruch with her on Sunday(Zuo Li Bai) and she
agreed. When she took me there, to my suprise it was not an underground
church I heard in US media, but a 15-20 year old large church building
with a big cross on top (just like a church in US.) We attended sunday
service with over 500 hundred people. The topic of surman was about the
same as what I would expect in US chruch, and the only Gon An I saw was
an old man (retired police?) wearing ragged uniform attending sunday
service.

I was there and I saw it with my own eyes.

China's laws restricting contact with foreign coreligionists,
prohibiting parents from exposing children under the age of 18 to
religion, and outlawing nongovernment-controlled churches violate the
UN Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of
Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief. In January 1994, the PRC
government increased restrictions on religious practice by foreigners
in China through State Council Decrees 144 and 145. Decree 144 states
that foreign nationals may bring in religious materials only "for
their own use," and bans materials deemed "harmful to the public
interest." The decree also prohibits evangelizing, establishing
religious schools and other missionary activities. Decree 145 gives
authorities substantial leeway in restricting religious activities
deemed harmful to "national unity" or "social stability," and limits
the practice of religion by foreign nationals to state-sanctioned
places of worship. [End of Excerpt]

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 09:52:33 -0800, LT Lee thought carefully and wrote:

Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.56.11.258024@ms74.hinet.net>...

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:40:33 -0800, LT Lee thought carefully and wrote:

I don't think the RCC is outlawed. Rather, the Chinese Catholic
Church dissociates itself from the Vatican.

Participating in an Roman Catholic Church activity is a crime (and this
is NOT a secret, Mr. Yu confirmed it, for example). It is punishable by
long prison sentences. Many RCC bishops were sentenced to (basically)
life in prison (considering their age).

1. There had been many accusation against the PRC, many were found to be
sheer fabrication.

It is sheer fabrication to deny (as you do) that participating in the
Roman Catholic Church (RCC) is a crime in the Peoples Republic of China
(PRC).

2. Christians and RCC priests also committed crimes from time to time.
Putting guilty Christians and priests in jail are not suppressing
religious freedom.

Agree that putting religious criminals in jail doesn't suppress religion.

However, in the PRC it is a crime to belong to various churches (including
the RCC. Putting people in jail for church activities does suppress
religious freedom.

3. The Chinese Catholic Church is now thriving. If you don't believe,
you need to visit China to take a look yourself as suggest by many other
netters.

The ROMAN Catholic Church was driven underground. The state of the CCC is
irrelevant to the state of the RCC.

For details see:

http://www.cardinalkungfoundation.org/

Or see:

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html

[Excerpt starts:] Suppression of Religious Freedom: The PRC prohibits
all religious activities outside establishments registered under the
official branches of four state-recognized religions (Buddhism, Taoism,
Christianity and Islam), established by the PRC government during the
1950s, through which Chinese and Tibetan religious adherents are
required to practice their faith. Individuals conducting or
participating in public worship without government authorization,
including Catholics loyal to the Vatican and Protestants who worship in
house churches, have been arrested, detained, placed under close police
surveillance or internal exile, fined and, in some cases, tortured. PRC
police have also confiscated religious literature and church property,
and human rights organizations have documented the closure of hundreds
of house churches since 1989.

As I had posted previously, the PRC government did regulate religious
organizations to protect the believers. I think it is reasonable. Most
governments in the world also regulates medicine. If medicine to the
body needs regulation, why not medicine to the soul?

Regulating churches and persecution for participating in a church are two
different topics.

Putting RCC members in prison is NOT an example of the regulation of
religion.

Jim, if you want an honest discussion. You need to consider my post.
Deleting my answer and then repeat the same question will not improve
understanding.

Let me explain once more on why religious organizations are regulated.
If you don't agree, please explain why you don't agree.

Whether the other world exists or not cannot be determined and it is not
the state's business.

It is certainly NOT the business of the state to regulate the content of
the beliefs of any church.

First do no harm is a must to protect the followers from being harmed in
this world.

Gibberish.

Hence, religious organizations are required to register with relevant
authority to prevent harmful teachings such as believers can walk on
water or they should preach in a lion den to convert lions or they
should burn themselves as a way to get to heaven.

Nonsense. The beliefs of any religion is none of the government's
business.

For example, at one point in the mass, the priest drinks some wine and
gives some bread to the members of the church. According to the beliefs of
the PERMITTED Patriotic Catholic Church, at that moment, the wine actually
becomes the blood of Jesus Christ and the bread becomes his body. The
PERMITTED Patriotic Catholic Church teaches its members that Jesus walked
on water and that he brought a dead person back to life.

IMHO, these teachings are nonsense. IMHO, it would be better if the
members of the PERMITTED Patriotic Catholic Church did not believe such
nonsense.

However, it is not my right (or the right of the CCP) to tell other people
what they may or may not believe.

Lack of regulation in the western world have visible bad results. For
example, pedophilic RCC priests in various parts of the world were
allowed to molest young believers.

ALLOWED? Why are you lying? It is a crime to molest children. Membership
in a religious group or being a priest does NOT give anyone "allowance" to
molest children.

China's laws restricting contact with foreign coreligionists,
prohibiting parents from exposing children under the age of 18 to
religion, and outlawing nongovernment-controlled churches violate the
UN Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of
Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief. In January 1994, the PRC
government increased restrictions on religious practice by foreigners
in China through State Council Decrees 144 and 145. Decree 144 states
that foreign nationals may bring in religious materials only "for their
own use," and bans materials deemed "harmful to the public interest."
The decree also prohibits evangelizing, establishing religious schools
and other missionary activities. Decree 145 gives authorities
substantial leeway in restricting religious activities deemed harmful
to "national unity" or "social stability," and limits the practice of
religion by foreign nationals to state-sanctioned places of worship.
[End of Excerpt]

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:38:55 -0700, Yu thought carefully and wrote:

Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.10.27.13.26.02.901586@ms74.hinet.net>...

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:27:00 +0000, PaPaPeng thought carefully and
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:34:22 +0800, Jim Walsh
<jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote:

It is petty but unenforceable? Well, the ban on the Roman Catholic
Church may also be regarded as "unenforceable" but it is real anyway,
and people were put in prison for violating it.

Then there must be a lot of prisons in China that can rightly be
called de facto Roman Catholic Churches.

There is no logical relationship between the fact (which is NOT denied
by the PRC government) that the Roman Catholic Church is forbidden in
the PRC and the bizarre statement above.

The Pope colluded with the Fascists when China was fighting the Japanese
invaders in the 1930s and 40s. The Pope urged Catholic Chinese not to
resist the Japanese.
So, CCP banned Chinese Catholic from having any affiliation with the
Pope.

In other words, FINALLY, you admit that the CCP persecutes Roman Catholics
(who get along just fine with their neighbors in every other country in
the world).

This is great. One more reason I like CCP.

I understand that you kiss the CCP *****, and undoubtedly, you have your
reasons.

But since you support the torture and imprisonment of people
because of their religion, it is accurate to say you are an intolerant
bigot.