| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
19 Oct 2004 06:10:09 AM |
| Object: |
Dalai Lama |
Dalai Lama says Tibet is better off within China
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=573564
By Justin Huggler in Delhi
19 October 2004
Tibet would be better off to remain within China rather than regain
its independence, the Dalai Lama has told an interviewer. "Tibet is
backward," the exiled spiritual leader said. "It's a big land, rich in
natural resources, but we lack the technology or expertise [to exploit
them]. So, if we remain in China, we might get a greater benefit,
provided it respects our culture and environment and gives us some
kind of guarantee."
Justin Huggler
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=18510aff.0405130137.7f2cb209%40posting.google.com
Dalai Lama
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Dalai+Lama%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Dalai+Lama%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Dalai+Lama%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Dalai%20Lama&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Tibet Tibetan Tibetans
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Tibet+OR+Tibetan+OR+Tibetans&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=gn&q=Tibet+OR+Tibetan+OR+Tibetans&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Tibet+OR+Tibetan+OR+Tibetans&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_oq=Tibet%20Tibetan%20Tibetans&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://tinyurl.com/9vga
.
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 08:47:59 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:14:26 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
I have never said RC were persecuted.
Then you are either ignorant or lying.
The Roman Catholic Church (among others) is illegal in the PRC).
Participating in the RCC can lead to confiscation of propery, trips to
"Re-education thru labor" prisons (where abuse up to and including torture
is common) and even criminal convictions and long prison sentences.
For details about the imprisonment of elderly RCC Bishops, contact the
Vatican or Google the topic.
Along with several other religions, the Roman Catholic Church was
outlawed by the CCP. Folks found to be worshiping in violation of the
law are imprisoned and/or tortured.
It's not outlawed.
Yes. it is.
They cut their link with the Vatican who are NAZI collaborators.
There is a church, which is similar to the RCC, called the CCP
boot-licking Catholic Church (my own translation), which is permitted. But
the RCC is illegal (as you MUST know).
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
| User: "Yu" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 07:42:51 PM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.05.14.47.57.168407@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:14:26 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
I have never said RC were persecuted.
Then you are either ignorant or lying.
The Roman Catholic Church (among others) is illegal in the PRC).
Participating in the RCC can lead to confiscation of propery, trips to
"Re-education thru labor" prisons (where abuse up to and including torture
is common) and even criminal convictions and long prison sentences.
For details about the imprisonment of elderly RCC Bishops, contact the
Vatican or Google the topic.
Those who commit crime under the the disguise of religion went to
jail.
I have told you before, some of them have fascist past.
In the pre-revolution era they are above laws.
During the cold war the Vatican colluded with the CIA.
Along with several other religions, the Roman Catholic Church was
outlawed by the CCP. Folks found to be worshiping in violation of the
law are imprisoned and/or tortured.
It's not outlawed.
Yes. it is.
No it's not.
They cut their link with the Vatican who are NAZI collaborators.
There is a church, which is similar to the RCC, called the CCP
boot-licking Catholic Church (my own translation), which is permitted. But
the RCC is illegal (as you MUST know).
The fascist Vatican of WW2 and the CIA infested Vatican today are not
allowed to meddle with China's RCC.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 11:43:18 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:42:51 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.05.14.47.57.168407@ms74.hinet.net>...
For details about the imprisonment of elderly RCC Bishops, contact the
Vatican or Google the topic.
Those who commit crime under the the disguise of religion went to jail.
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be changed,
not the religious behavior.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
| User: "Yu" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
07 Nov 2004 07:45:10 PM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:42:51 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.05.14.47.57.168407@ms74.hinet.net>...
For details about the imprisonment of elderly RCC Bishops, contact the
Vatican or Google the topic.
Those who commit crime under the the disguise of religion went to jail.
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be changed,
not the religious behavior.
In the old days the Vatican claimed that they are saving the souls of
the Chinese and they sent their prists to China. These prists enjoy
special previlages while working for the imperialists. Some of these
fascist prists, including sex perverts are in the process of becoming
"Saints".
Now they BS about human rights actually they are still working for the
neo-imperialist, same old wine in new bottles.
We don't need more superstitions.
You hope the Vatican will wreck China and I hope your christian
foundamentalist President, Bush will wreck USA. We are even now!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Moore" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
07 Nov 2004 08:54:48 PM |
|
|
In article <f0abc8cb.0411071745.c285f0e@posting.google.com>,
Yu <yugaung@yahoo.com> wrote:
You hope the Vatican will wreck China and I hope your christian
foundamentalist President, Bush will wreck USA. We are even now!
Yu, have you ever in your 5+ years of posting crap on Usenet ever
found anyone sympathetic?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
08 Nov 2004 08:04:31 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 17:45:10 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be changed,
not the religious behavior.
We don't need more superstitions.
Agree completely. I personally wish everyone in the world would reject all
religions.
The beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are stupid superstitions.
But the harm done to a society when the government outlaws religions is
greater than the harm done by the religions.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
| User: "Yu" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
08 Nov 2004 09:48:00 PM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.08.14.04.31.13556@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 17:45:10 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be changed,
not the religious behavior.
We don't need more superstitions.
Agree completely. I personally wish everyone in the world would reject all
religions.
The beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are stupid superstitions.
But the harm done to a society when the government outlaws religions is
greater than the harm done by the religions.
Religion is like a weapon.
You hope FLG will wreck china, while I hope FLG will have many stupid
followers in USA and wreck USA.
In this case your luck is better than mine. 99% of those FLG idiots
are Chinese.
May be the Christian fundamentalist like Bush will do a better job at
wrecking USA.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
06 Nov 2004 02:22:04 PM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:42:51 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.05.14.47.57.168407@ms74.hinet.net>...
For details about the imprisonment of elderly RCC Bishops, contact the
Vatican or Google the topic.
Those who commit crime under the the disguise of religion went to jail.
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be changed,
not the religious behavior.
Why don't you tell that to the people of the World? They had to endure
1,700 years of Christian fascist terrorism.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
07 Nov 2004 04:38:42 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:22:04 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be changed,
not the religious behavior.
Why don't you tell that to the people of the World?
I have already done so.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
08 Nov 2004 05:07:05 AM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.07.10.38.42.174242@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:22:04 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be changed,
not the religious behavior.
Why don't you tell that to the people of the World?
I have already done so.
Your words in the Usenet is useless. You either present yourself
before the ICC or your Christian fascist organization and fellow
travelers will be hunted down across the globe.
They had to endure 1,700 years of Christian fascist terrorism.
Cat got your tongue, Christian fascist thug?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
08 Nov 2004 08:02:27 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 03:07:05 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.07.10.38.42.174242@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:22:04 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be
changed, not the religious behavior.
Why don't you tell that to the people of the World?
I have already done so.
Cat got your tongue, Christian fascist thug?
I am an atheist.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
08 Nov 2004 03:11:10 PM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.08.14.02.25.976819@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 03:07:05 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.07.10.38.42.174242@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:22:04 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.06.05.43.18.192359@ms74.hinet.net>...
When the law violates human rights, it is the law that must be
changed, not the religious behavior.
Why don't you tell that to the people of the World?
I have already done so.
Cat got your tongue, Christian fascist thug?
I am an atheist.
So? Bushie fascists are overwhelmingly Christian fascists. So there's
going to be some secular fascists since your agenda is fascism.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
03 Nov 2004 02:32:13 PM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.21.24.322667@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:56:40 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
[...]
Nonsense.
China was criticized for human rights violations even before 1949, the KMT
being a brutal regime.
But why do you think that the Communists say that Vatican will never
be recognized? Christian death squads massacred Communists in alliance
with GMD (KMT) without mercy including family members. Even Mao's wife
was murdered by Christian death squads.
The kind of criticism has changed over the years. For example, when China
opened up to the outsider (in terms of trade, investment and tourists)
previous criticism for its failure to do so stopped.
Link between Fascist and Pope during WW2 is well known.
Well, it is certainly true that the Pope could have been more anti-fascist
(especially more anti-Nazi) but that would not remotely justify the
imprisonment of Roman Catholics.
But Vatican has been a terrorist state for the last 1,700 years. In a
predominantly Buddhist country like Vietnam, it's stupid to install a
Catholic Diem as a puppet. Vatican has been and still is a terrorist
state.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Moore" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
03 Nov 2004 03:05:10 PM |
|
|
In article <18510aff.0411031232.180aebf1@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.21.24.322667@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:56:40 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
[...]
Nonsense.
China was criticized for human rights violations even before 1949, the KMT
being a brutal regime.
But why do you think that the Communists say that Vatican will never
be recognized? Christian death squads massacred Communists in alliance
with GMD (KMT) without mercy including family members. Even Mao's wife
was murdered by Christian death squads.
I know she was killed by KMT militarists after a failed
Communist attack on her city, but I have never heard that
the Roman Catholic Church leadership was involved.
The kind of criticism has changed over the years. For example, when China
opened up to the outsider (in terms of trade, investment and tourists)
previous criticism for its failure to do so stopped.
Link between Fascist and Pope during WW2 is well known.
Well, it is certainly true that the Pope could have been more anti-fascist
(especially more anti-Nazi) but that would not remotely justify the
imprisonment of Roman Catholics.
But Vatican has been a terrorist state for the last 1,700 years. In a
predominantly Buddhist country like Vietnam, it's stupid to install a
Catholic Diem as a puppet. Vatican has been and still is a terrorist
state.
I don't agree - I think it's much more complicated than that, but
am not interested in getting into that right now.
The important point is that the CCP does *not* ban allegiance to
the Vatican because they consider it a terrorist state or
anything like that. They ban it because they consider Catholics
who consider the pope a spiritual leader a threat to their own power.
Just as they consider Buddhists who consider the Dalai Lama their
spiritual leader a threat to their power. It's the same reason that
Falun Gong is banned, too.
.
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
04 Nov 2004 02:52:03 AM |
|
|
(Bill Moore) wrote in message news:<1099515951.58738@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <18510aff.0411031232.180aebf1@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.21.24.322667@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:56:40 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
[...]
Nonsense.
China was criticized for human rights violations even before 1949, the KMT
being a brutal regime.
But why do you think that the Communists say that Vatican will never
be recognized? Christian death squads massacred Communists in alliance
with GMD (KMT) without mercy including family members. Even Mao's wife
was murdered by Christian death squads.
I know she was killed by KMT militarists after a failed
Communist attack on her city, but I have never heard that
the Roman Catholic Church leadership was involved.
KMT's army was top heavy with Christians (including Catholics).
Imperialism, fascism and the churches were in collusion for a long
time. Why do you think Shanghai massacre of 1927 happened?
Have you heard of any Catholics who were excommunicated for
imperialism and fascism? Not even Hitler was excommunicated. He died a
Catholic.
The kind of criticism has changed over the years. For example, when China
opened up to the outsider (in terms of trade, investment and tourists)
previous criticism for its failure to do so stopped.
Link between Fascist and Pope during WW2 is well known.
Well, it is certainly true that the Pope could have been more anti-fascist
(especially more anti-Nazi) but that would not remotely justify the
imprisonment of Roman Catholics.
But Vatican has been a terrorist state for the last 1,700 years. In a
predominantly Buddhist country like Vietnam, it's stupid to install a
Catholic Diem as a puppet. Vatican has been and still is a terrorist
state.
I don't agree - I think it's much more complicated than that, but
am not interested in getting into that right now.
Haven't you heard of Cardinal Spellman and many others who financed
the Vatican?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Spellman+Francis+OR+Joseph+OR+Cardinal&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&tab=nw&sa=N
The important point is that the CCP does *not* ban allegiance to
the Vatican because they consider it a terrorist state or
anything like that. They ban it because they consider Catholics
who consider the pope a spiritual leader a threat to their own power.
So why aren't the Catholics or other Christians, who accepted the
Chinese state, persecuted?
Just as they consider Buddhists who consider the Dalai Lama their
It was Dalai Lama's fault that he listened to his American advisors
instead of working with the Chinese government.
spiritual leader a threat to their power. It's the same reason that
Falun Gong is banned, too.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Moore" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
04 Nov 2004 03:59:51 AM |
|
|
In article <18510aff.0411040052.1714f70a@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
bmoore@blackhole.nyx.net (Bill Moore) wrote in message
news:<1099515951.58738@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <18510aff.0411031232.180aebf1@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.21.24.322667@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:56:40 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
[...]
Nonsense.
China was criticized for human rights violations even before 1949, the KMT
being a brutal regime.
But why do you think that the Communists say that Vatican will never
be recognized? Christian death squads massacred Communists in alliance
with GMD (KMT) without mercy including family members. Even Mao's wife
was murdered by Christian death squads.
I know she was killed by KMT militarists after a failed
Communist attack on her city, but I have never heard that
the Roman Catholic Church leadership was involved.
KMT's army was top heavy with Christians (including Catholics).
Imperialism, fascism and the churches were in collusion for a long
time. Why do you think Shanghai massacre of 1927 happened?
Have you heard of any Catholics who were excommunicated for
imperialism and fascism? Not even Hitler was excommunicated. He died a
Catholic.
Lots of stuff there, very interesting, but I was just asking
for more data impugning the Vatican for what they might have
done in China.
The kind of criticism has changed over the years. For example, when China
opened up to the outsider (in terms of trade, investment and tourists)
previous criticism for its failure to do so stopped.
Link between Fascist and Pope during WW2 is well known.
Well, it is certainly true that the Pope could have been more anti-fascist
(especially more anti-Nazi) but that would not remotely justify the
imprisonment of Roman Catholics.
But Vatican has been a terrorist state for the last 1,700 years. In a
predominantly Buddhist country like Vietnam, it's stupid to install a
Catholic Diem as a puppet. Vatican has been and still is a terrorist
state.
I don't agree - I think it's much more complicated than that, but
am not interested in getting into that right now.
Haven't you heard of Cardinal Spellman and many others who financed
the Vatican?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Spellman+Francis+OR+Joseph+OR+Cardinal&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&tab=nw&sa=N
I have, actually - what part of "I am not interested right now" don't
you understand? ;-)
The important point is that the CCP does *not* ban allegiance to
the Vatican because they consider it a terrorist state or
anything like that. They ban it because they consider Catholics
who consider the pope a spiritual leader a threat to their own power.
So why aren't the Catholics or other Christians, who accepted the
Chinese state, persecuted?
It's not an issue of accepting the Chinese state. It's an
issue of not being allowed to publicly accept the pope.
Just as they consider Buddhists who consider the Dalai Lama their
It was Dalai Lama's fault that he listened to his American advisors
instead of working with the Chinese government.
Dalai Lama made mistakes, but you can't seriously pin the CCP
banning of certain expressions of Tibetan Buddhism on HHDL.
It was mainly banned due to the peoples' devotion to HHDL.
spiritual leader a threat to their power. It's the same reason that
Falun Gong is banned, too.
Right?
.
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 03:24:32 AM |
|
|
(Bill Moore) wrote in message news:<1099562432.70328@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <18510aff.0411040052.1714f70a@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
(Bill Moore) wrote in message
news:<1099515951.58738@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <18510aff.0411031232.180aebf1@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.21.24.322667@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:56:40 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
[...]
Nonsense.
China was criticized for human rights violations even before 1949, the KMT
being a brutal regime.
But why do you think that the Communists say that Vatican will never
be recognized? Christian death squads massacred Communists in alliance
with GMD (KMT) without mercy including family members. Even Mao's wife
was murdered by Christian death squads.
I know she was killed by KMT militarists after a failed
Communist attack on her city, but I have never heard that
the Roman Catholic Church leadership was involved.
KMT's army was top heavy with Christians (including Catholics).
Imperialism, fascism and the churches were in collusion for a long
time. Why do you think Shanghai massacre of 1927 happened?
Have you heard of any Catholics who were excommunicated for
imperialism and fascism? Not even Hitler was excommunicated. He died a
Catholic.
Lots of stuff there, very interesting, but I was just asking
for more data impugning the Vatican for what they might have
done in China.
It was the same old policy that Vatican persued against Communists or
anti-fascists world wode including China.
PIUS XII
Eugenio Pacelli, Pope 1939 - 1958
"His Holiness, Pius XII, the best anti-democrat in the world," as he
was in 1950 (!) proudly titled by Ecclesia, official organ of the
Spanish Catholic Action in an attempt to pay him the greatest tribute
a Catholic paper could pay, earlier in his career, as we have seen,
had helped Hitler to come to power in Germany. His policy as a pope
was faithful to his predecessor. When the Spanish republic was finally
defeated by Catholic troops under Franco, would-be dictator of Spain,
the pope sent a special message to the victors:
"With great joy we address you, dearest sons of Catholic Spain,
to express our paternal congratulations for the gift of peace and
victory with which God has chosen to crown the Christian heroism of
your faith
... We give you, our dear sons of Catholic Spain, our apostolic
benediction." [4/17/1939]
Church property and all medieval (!) privileges of the Church were
restored. No other religion was allowed. Protestants and ex-Catholics
were sent to concentration camps for refusing to attend divine
service. Freethinkers, democrats, Socialists and Communists were
deprived of civil rights,imprisoned, or shot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pius XI, in his own words a "man with no love for democracy," helped
to bring Mussolini's Fascist Party to power in Italy and in 1926
solemnly declared: "Mussolini is a man sent by Divine Providence."
[MC247] In 1935 Fascist Italy attacked and invaded Abyssinia. Since
the population of Italy lacked enthusiasm for this aggression, the
pope hastened to declare a new crusade. For example the Archbishop of
Tarent, holding a Holy Mass on a submarine, declared: "The war against
Abyssinia should be viewed as a Holy War, as a crusade," which also
opened "Ethiopia, the land of infidels and schismatics, to the
catholic Faith."
The pope's emissary in Germany, Papal Nuncio Eugenio Pacelli, the
future Pope Pius XII, helped to demolish the young Weimar republic.
After the liberal democratic Catholic leader Erzberger had been
assassinated, the Pope's exertions became directed to the support of
all Right Wing movements in Germany, via the influence of the Catholic
Centre Party. On march 23, 1933, the German Reichstag met, and the
Catholic Party, led by its Catholic leaders, former chancellor Brüning
and prelate Mgr. Kaas, personal friend of Pacelli, voted for Catholic
Hitler. After this, having received, directly from the Vatican, orders
to disband, the Catholic Party dissolved. Preached Pacelli to the
German Catholics:
"...it is all the more necessary that the Catholics, deprived of
diplomatic representation, should find in the diplomatic pacts between
the Holy See and the National Socialist Government guarantees which
can assure them ... the maintenance of their position in the life of
the nation."
Mgr. Kaas, leader of the dissolved Catholic Party, put it even more
bluntly: Catholics must support Hitler, he said. They should not have
any fears about it. For Hitler's ideals were "noble ideals."
Furthermore, "Hitler knows well how to guide the ship." In this way
the first successful democracy on german soil had been destroyed.
[MC250-252]
Pacelli Pope OR Eugenio
http://news.google.com/news?q=Pacelli%20Pope%20OR%20Eugenio&num=100&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?q=Pacelli+Pope+OR+Eugenio&num=100&hl=en&lr=&tab=nw&ie=UTF-8&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=Pacelli+Pope+OR+Eugenio&num=100&hl=en&lr=&output=search&cat=gwd/Top
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=Pacelli%20&as_oq=Pope%20Eugenio&safe=images&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
The kind of criticism has changed over the years. For example, when China
opened up to the outsider (in terms of trade, investment and tourists)
previous criticism for its failure to do so stopped.
Link between Fascist and Pope during WW2 is well known.
Well, it is certainly true that the Pope could have been more anti-fascist
(especially more anti-Nazi) but that would not remotely justify the
imprisonment of Roman Catholics.
But Vatican has been a terrorist state for the last 1,700 years. In a
predominantly Buddhist country like Vietnam, it's stupid to install a
Catholic Diem as a puppet. Vatican has been and still is a terrorist
state.
I don't agree - I think it's much more complicated than that, but
am not interested in getting into that right now.
Haven't you heard of Cardinal Spellman and many others who financed
the Vatican?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Spellman+Francis+OR+Joseph+OR+Cardinal&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&tab=nw&sa=N
I have, actually - what part of "I am not interested right now" don't
you understand? ;-)
I certainly understand that you want to protect the criminals in the
Vatican. But you and those criminals will be hunted down and taken to
the International Criminal Court regardless.
The important point is that the CCP does *not* ban allegiance to
the Vatican because they consider it a terrorist state or
anything like that. They ban it because they consider Catholics
who consider the pope a spiritual leader a threat to their own power.
So why aren't the Catholics or other Christians, who accepted the
Chinese state, persecuted?
It's not an issue of accepting the Chinese state. It's an
issue of not being allowed to publicly accept the pope.
Criminals in the Vatican will be hunted down World wide regardless.
Just as they consider Buddhists who consider the Dalai Lama their
It was Dalai Lama's fault that he listened to his American advisors
instead of working with the Chinese government.
Dalai Lama made mistakes, but you can't seriously pin the CCP
banning of certain expressions of Tibetan Buddhism on HHDL.
It was mainly banned due to the peoples' devotion to HHDL.
But it isn't about Dalai Lama. What type of Buddhists were they
instigating violence? Of course, the Chinese government was going to
react.
spiritual leader a threat to their power. It's the same reason that
Falun Gong is banned, too.
Right?
Maybe, maybe not. That's what happens when Communist ideology is
discarded. People need something else to replace it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Moore" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 10:26:35 AM |
|
|
In article <18510aff.0411050124.15a540e4@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
PIUS XII
(snip)
But no mention of China in there.
I have, actually - what part of "I am not interested right now" don't
you understand? ;-)
I certainly understand that you want to protect the criminals in the
Vatican. But you and those criminals will be hunted down and taken to
the International Criminal Court regardless.
I want to protect them? I will be hunted down?
You are sounding crazy.
The important point is that the CCP does *not* ban allegiance to
the Vatican because they consider it a terrorist state or
anything like that. They ban it because they consider Catholics
who consider the pope a spiritual leader a threat to their own power.
So why aren't the Catholics or other Christians, who accepted the
Chinese state, persecuted?
It's not an issue of accepting the Chinese state. It's an
issue of not being allowed to publicly accept the pope.
Criminals in the Vatican will be hunted down World wide regardless.
It seems like you are changing the subject from CCP oppression of religion
to an indictment of the Vatican for things that happened under previous
popes. Should Hu be hunted down for Mao's crimes?
Just as they consider Buddhists who consider the Dalai Lama their
It was Dalai Lama's fault that he listened to his American advisors
instead of working with the Chinese government.
Dalai Lama made mistakes, but you can't seriously pin the CCP
banning of certain expressions of Tibetan Buddhism on HHDL.
It was mainly banned due to the peoples' devotion to HHDL.
But it isn't about Dalai Lama. What type of Buddhists were they
instigating violence? Of course, the Chinese government was going to
react.
The Chinese government's odbppression of Tibetan Buddhists is not
limited to those who commit violence.
spiritual leader a threat to their power. It's the same reason that
Falun Gong is banned, too.
Right?
Maybe, maybe not. That's what happens when Communist ideology is
discarded. People need something else to replace it.
If people wish to discard Communist ideology, why shouldn't they be
allowed to? If they want to adopt *any* nonviolent spiritual practice
why shouldn't they be allowed to?
.
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
06 Nov 2004 03:50:15 AM |
|
|
(Bill Moore) wrote in message news:<1099672036.335302@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <18510aff.0411050124.15a540e4@posting.google.com>,
maff <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
PIUS XII
(snip)
But no mention of China in there.
You should read up the history of Vatican.
I have, actually - what part of "I am not interested right now" don't
you understand? ;-)
I certainly understand that you want to protect the criminals in the
Vatican. But you and those criminals will be hunted down and taken to
the International Criminal Court regardless.
I want to protect them? I will be hunted down?
You are sounding crazy.
I'm sure that's what Nazi leaders also said.
The important point is that the CCP does *not* ban allegiance to
the Vatican because they consider it a terrorist state or
anything like that. They ban it because they consider Catholics
who consider the pope a spiritual leader a threat to their own power.
So why aren't the Catholics or other Christians, who accepted the
Chinese state, persecuted?
It's not an issue of accepting the Chinese state. It's an
issue of not being allowed to publicly accept the pope.
Criminals in the Vatican will be hunted down World wide regardless.
It seems like you are changing the subject from CCP oppression of religion
If you've evidence then present it to the International Criminal
Court. It's you who wants to suppress evidence against Christian
fascists.
to an indictment of the Vatican for things that happened under previous
popes. Should Hu be hunted down for Mao's crimes?
Just as they consider Buddhists who consider the Dalai Lama their
It was Dalai Lama's fault that he listened to his American advisors
instead of working with the Chinese government.
Dalai Lama made mistakes, but you can't seriously pin the CCP
banning of certain expressions of Tibetan Buddhism on HHDL.
It was mainly banned due to the peoples' devotion to HHDL.
But it isn't about Dalai Lama. What type of Buddhists were they
instigating violence? Of course, the Chinese government was going to
react.
The Chinese government's odbppression of Tibetan Buddhists is not
limited to those who commit violence.
So why don't you present the evidence to the International Criminal
Court?
spiritual leader a threat to their power. It's the same reason that
Falun Gong is banned, too.
Right?
Maybe, maybe not. That's what happens when Communist ideology is
discarded. People need something else to replace it.
If people wish to discard Communist ideology, why shouldn't they be
allowed to? If they want to adopt *any* nonviolent spiritual practice
why shouldn't they be allowed to?
Haven't you heard? Even Al Capone was jailed for tax evasion and not
for his mafia activities.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
06 Nov 2004 06:00:39 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 01:50:15 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
bmoore@blackhole.nyx.net (Bill Moore) wrote in message
news:<1099672036.335302@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <18510aff.0411050124.15a540e4@posting.google.com>, maff
<maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
PIUS XII
(snip)
But no mention of China in there.
You should read up the history of Vatican.
If the Pope in the 1930s were Hitler himself, it would not justify putting
Roman Catholics in Prison in in the PRC in 2004.
The Chinese government's odbppression of Tibetan Buddhists is not
limited to those who commit violence.
So why don't you present the evidence to the International Criminal
Court?
The ICC doesn't hear charges against the leaders of the CCP which are
brought by private individuals.
If people wish to discard Communist ideology, why shouldn't they be
allowed to? If they want to adopt *any* nonviolent spiritual practice
why shouldn't they be allowed to?
Haven't you heard? Even Al Capone was jailed for tax evasion and not for
his mafia activities.
Now this must hold the scc world record for change of subject.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
08 Nov 2004 04:46:29 AM |
|
|
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.06.12.00.37.659252@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 01:50:15 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
bmoore@blackhole.nyx.net (Bill Moore) wrote in message
news:<1099672036.335302@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <18510aff.0411050124.15a540e4@posting.google.com>, maff
<maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
PIUS XII
(snip)
But no mention of China in there.
You should read up the history of Vatican.
If the Pope in the 1930s were Hitler himself, it would not justify putting
Roman Catholics in Prison in in the PRC in 2004.
So why aren't you presenting the evidence to the International
Criminal Court? Are you afraid Christian fascist organizations and
fellow travelers will be hunted down and taken to the courts anyway?
The Chinese government's odbppression of Tibetan Buddhists is not
limited to those who commit violence.
So why don't you present the evidence to the International Criminal
Court?
The ICC doesn't hear charges against the leaders of the CCP which are
brought by private individuals.
Why not? Haven't you heard the terms of reference under which
individuals can be prosecuted?
International Criminal Court
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=18510aff.0401210306.62627439%40posting.google.com
If people wish to discard Communist ideology, why shouldn't they be
allowed to? If they want to adopt *any* nonviolent spiritual practice
why shouldn't they be allowed to?
Haven't you heard? Even Al Capone was jailed for tax evasion and not for
his mafia activities.
Now this must hold the scc world record for change of subject.
So why are you afraid to approach the courts?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
04 Nov 2004 03:02:17 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 00:52:03 -0800, maff thought carefully and wrote:
So why aren't the Catholics or other Christians, who accepted the
Chinese state, persecuted?
You are lying again. Lots of different Christian churches are persecuted.
And it is not "accepting the Chinese state" that is the standard of
safety. Roman Catholics accept the Chinese state. The beginning of the
persecution of the Falun Gong involved the FLG acting to register its
organization according to the laws of the Chinese state.
The only way for religious folks to avoid persecution is by "accepting the
rule of the CCP in all matters, including God".
I can't imagine how anyone who believes in God (btw, I don't) would accept
that an atheist organization should have the power to appoint bishops and
otherwise interfere in the details of a religious organization.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Walsh" |
|
| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
03 Nov 2004 11:04:31 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:05:10 -0700, Bill Moore thought carefully and
wrote:
The important point is that the CCP does *not* ban allegiance to the
Vatican because they consider it a terrorist state or anything like
that. They ban it because they consider Catholics who consider the pope
a spiritual leader a threat to their own power. Just as they consider
Buddhists who consider the Dalai Lama their spiritual leader a threat to
their power. It's the same reason that Falun Gong is banned, too.
Good points Bill.
I also think it is important to point out that the Roman Catholic Church,
Tibetan Buddhism under the Dalai Lama's leadership and the Falun Gong are
ALL accepted by virtually every country in the world, and they cause no
trouble to speak of.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
