| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
19 Oct 2004 06:10:09 AM |
| Object: |
Dalai Lama |
Dalai Lama says Tibet is better off within China
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=573564
By Justin Huggler in Delhi
19 October 2004
Tibet would be better off to remain within China rather than regain
its independence, the Dalai Lama has told an interviewer. "Tibet is
backward," the exiled spiritual leader said. "It's a big land, rich in
natural resources, but we lack the technology or expertise [to exploit
them]. So, if we remain in China, we might get a greater benefit,
provided it respects our culture and environment and gives us some
kind of guarantee."
Justin Huggler
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=18510aff.0405130137.7f2cb209%40posting.google.com
Dalai Lama
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Dalai+Lama%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Dalai+Lama%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Dalai+Lama%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Dalai%20Lama&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Tibet Tibetan Tibetans
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Tibet+OR+Tibetan+OR+Tibetans&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=gn&q=Tibet+OR+Tibetan+OR+Tibetans&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Tibet+OR+Tibetan+OR+Tibetans&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_oq=Tibet%20Tibetan%20Tibetans&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://tinyurl.com/9vga
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
25 Oct 2004 12:56:05 PM |
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maff wrote:
Dalai Lama says Tibet is better off within China
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=573564
By Justin Huggler in Delhi
19 October 2004
Tibet would be better off to remain within China rather than regain
its independence, the Dalai Lama has told an interviewer. "Tibet is
backward," the exiled spiritual leader said. "It's a big land, rich in
natural resources, but we lack the technology or expertise [to exploit
them]. So, if we remain in China, we might get a greater benefit,
provided it respects our culture and environment and gives us some
kind of guarantee."
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
More reasons to keep the religious out of ruling.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Skype callto://hellward
NFS Porsche Unleashed, Hot Pursuit 2, Underground.
Yeowww
.
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| User: "Bill Moore" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
26 Oct 2004 12:36:24 PM |
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In article <9KGdneEAl_foo-DcRVnyuw@pipex.net>,
Jez <iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
maff wrote:
Dalai Lama says Tibet is better off within China
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=573564
By Justin Huggler in Delhi
19 October 2004
Tibet would be better off to remain within China rather than regain
its independence, the Dalai Lama has told an interviewer. "Tibet is
backward," the exiled spiritual leader said. "It's a big land, rich in
natural resources, but we lack the technology or expertise [to exploit
them]. So, if we remain in China, we might get a greater benefit,
provided it respects our culture and environment and gives us some
kind of guarantee."
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
More reasons to keep the religious out of ruling.
Let's keep the Communist Chinese dictators out too.
BTW, the Dalai Lama announced long ago that he favored
democracy, not theocracy in Tibet.
.
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| User: "PaPaPeng" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
26 Oct 2004 12:46:01 PM |
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On 26 Oct 2004 11:36:24 -0600, (Bill Moore)
wrote:
BTW, the Dalai Lama announced long ago that he favored
democracy, not theocracy in Tibet.
So where does that leave him? No theocracy, no need for a DL in
Tibet.
If he wants to he can renounce his HHDL persona any minute and
qualify as a private person for a visa to visit Tibet anytime.
.
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| User: "Bill Moore" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
26 Oct 2004 02:59:57 PM |
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In article <913tn0ltu8tb62fb2102rts7sbi02bukfm@4ax.com>,
PaPaPeng <papapeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2004 11:36:24 -0600, (Bill Moore)
wrote:
BTW, the Dalai Lama announced long ago that he favored
democracy, not theocracy in Tibet.
So where does that leave him? No theocracy, no need for a DL in
Tibet.
No theocracy, no need for a bishop in Germany? See how that
logic falls apart?
If he wants to he can renounce his HHDL persona any minute and
qualify as a private person for a visa to visit Tibet anytime.
I doubt it. And if China weren't so repressive when it comes to
religious freedom it wouldn't be an issue.
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
27 Oct 2004 09:35:02 AM |
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Bill Moore wrote:
In article <913tn0ltu8tb62fb2102rts7sbi02bukfm@4ax.com>,
PaPaPeng <papapeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2004 11:36:24 -0600, (Bill Moore)
wrote:
BTW, the Dalai Lama announced long ago that he favored
democracy, not theocracy in Tibet.
So where does that leave him? No theocracy, no need for a DL in
Tibet.
No theocracy, no need for a bishop in Germany? See how that
logic falls apart?
If he wants to he can renounce his HHDL persona any minute and
qualify as a private person for a visa to visit Tibet anytime.
I doubt it. And if China weren't so repressive when it comes to
religious freedom it wouldn't be an issue.
But the religious leaders in Tibet were even more oppressive than the
Chinese.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Skype callto://hellward
NFS Porsche Unleashed, Hot Pursuit 2, Underground.
Yeowww
.
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| User: "Bill Moore" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
27 Oct 2004 10:14:44 AM |
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In article <XZGdnbSRx_7IL-LcRVnysw@pipex.net>,
Jez <iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Bill Moore wrote:
In article <913tn0ltu8tb62fb2102rts7sbi02bukfm@4ax.com>,
PaPaPeng <papapeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2004 11:36:24 -0600, (Bill Moore)
wrote:
BTW, the Dalai Lama announced long ago that he favored
democracy, not theocracy in Tibet.
So where does that leave him? No theocracy, no need for a DL in
Tibet.
No theocracy, no need for a bishop in Germany? See how that
logic falls apart?
If he wants to he can renounce his HHDL persona any minute and
qualify as a private person for a visa to visit Tibet anytime.
I doubt it. And if China weren't so repressive when it comes to
religious freedom it wouldn't be an issue.
But the religious leaders in Tibet were even more oppressive than the
Chinese.
Maybe, I don't think so, but it's debatable. And it in no way justifies
what the Chinese are doing there now. And, the return of the Dalai Lama
to Tibet would not mean a return to the old ways. The Dalai Lama
has proposed democracy, not theocracy. When Tibetans are shocked
with torture devices for trying to practice their religion, all
but the most cold-hearted would concede that there is a serious problem,
regardless of what wrongs were being committed in old Tibet.
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
27 Oct 2004 12:34:13 PM |
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Bill Moore wrote:
In article <XZGdnbSRx_7IL-LcRVnysw@pipex.net>,
Jez <iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Bill Moore wrote:
In article <913tn0ltu8tb62fb2102rts7sbi02bukfm@4ax.com>,
PaPaPeng <papapeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2004 11:36:24 -0600, (Bill Moore)
wrote:
BTW, the Dalai Lama announced long ago that he favored
democracy, not theocracy in Tibet.
So where does that leave him? No theocracy, no need for a DL in
Tibet.
No theocracy, no need for a bishop in Germany? See how that
logic falls apart?
If he wants to he can renounce his HHDL persona any minute and
qualify as a private person for a visa to visit Tibet anytime.
I doubt it. And if China weren't so repressive when it comes to
religious freedom it wouldn't be an issue.
But the religious leaders in Tibet were even more oppressive than the
Chinese.
Maybe, I don't think so, but it's debatable.
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/195222.html
Before the Democratic Reform of 1959 Tibet had long been a society of
feudal serfdom under the despotic religion-political rule of lamas and
nobles, a society which was darker and more cruel than the European
serfdom of the Middle Ages. Tibet's serf-owners were principally the
three major estate-holders: local administrative officials, nobles and
upper-ranking lamas in monasteries. Although they accounted for less
than 5 percent of Tibet's population, they owned all of Tibet's
farmland, pastures, forests, mountains and rivers as well as most
livestock. Statistics released in the early years of the Qing Dynasty in
the 17th century indicate that Tibet then had more than 3 million ke of
farmland (15 ke equal to 1 hectare), of which 30.9 percent was owned by
officials, 29.6 percent by nobles, and 39.5 percent by monasteries and
upper-ranking lamas. Before the 1959 Democratic Reform, Tibet had 197
hereditary noble families and 25 big noble families, with the biggest
numbering seven to eight, each holding dozens of manors and tens of
thousand of ke of land.
Serfs made up 90 percent of old Tibet's population. They were called
tralpa in Tibetan (namely people who tilled plots of land assigned to
them and had to provide corvee labor for the serf-owners) and duiqoin
(small households with chimneys emitting smoke). They had no land or
personal freedom, and the survival of each of them depended on an
estate-holder's manor. In addition, nangzan who comprised 5 percent of
the population were hereditary household slaves, deprived of any means
of production and personal freedom.
Serf-owners literally possessed the living bodies of their serfs. Since
serfs were at their disposal as their private property, they could trade
and transfer them, present them as gifts, make them mortgages for a debt
and exchange them. According to historical records, in 1943 the
aristocrat Chengmoim Norbu Wanggyai sold 100 serfs to a monk official at
Garzhol Kamsa, in Zhigoin area, at the cost of 60 liang of Tibetan
silver (about four silver dollars) per serf. He also sent 400 serfs to
the Gundelin Monastery as mortgage for a debt of 3,000 pin Tibetan
silver (about 10,000 silver dollars). Serf-owners had a firm grip on the
birth, death and marriage of serfs. Male and female serfs not belonging
to the same owner had to pay "redemption fees" before they could marry.
In some cases, an exchange was made with a man swapped for man and a
woman for woman. In other cases, after a couple wedded, the ownership of
both husband and wife remained unchanged, but their sons would belong to
the husband's owner and their daughters to the wife's owner. Children of
serfs were registered the moment they were born, setting their life-long
fate as serfs.
Serf-owners ruthlessly exploited serfs through corvee and usury. The
corvee tax system of old Tibet was very cruel. Permanent corvee tax was
registered and there were also temporary additional corvee taxes.
Incomplete statistics indicate the existence of more than 200 categories
of corvee taxes levied by the Gaxag (Tibetan local government). The
corvee assigned by Gaxag and manorial lords accounted for over 50
percent of the labor of serf households, and could go as high as 70-80
percent. According to a survey conducted before the Democratic Reform,
the Darongqang Manor owned by Regent Dagzhag of the 14th Dalai Lama had
a total of 1,445 ke of land, and 81 able-bodied and semi-able-bodied
serfs. They were assigned a total of 21,260 corvee days for the whole
year, the equivalent of an entire year's labor by 67.3 people. In
effect, 83 percent of the serfs had to do corvee for one full year.
The serfs engaged in hard labor year in and year out and yet had no
guaranteed food or clothing. Often they had to rely on money borrowed at
usury to keep body and soul together. The annual interest rate for
usurious loans was very high, while that for money borrowed from
monasteries was 30 percent, and for grain 20 or 25 percent. Monetary
loans from nobles exacted a 20 percent interest, while that for grain
amounted to 20 or 25 percent.
Gaxag had several money-lending institutions, and the Dalai Lama of
various generations had two organizations specialized in lending money.
Incomplete records in the account books of the two cash-lending bodies
of the Dalai Lama in 1950 show that they had lent out about 3.0385
million liang of Tibetan silver in usurious loans.
Snowballing interest of usurious loans created debts which could never
be repaid by even succeeding generations and debts involving a guarantor
resulted in the bankruptcy of both the debtor and the guarantor. The
grandfather of a serf named Cering Goinbo of Maizhokunggar County once
borrowed 50 ke of grain (1 ke equal to 14 kg) from the Sera Monastery.
In 77 years the three generations had paid more than 3,000 ke of grain
for the interest but the serf-owner still claimed that Cering Goinbo
owed him 100,000 ke of grain. There was another serf named Dainzin in
Donggar County who in 1941 borrowed one keof qingke barley from his
master. In 1951 when he was asked to repay 600 ke, he was forced to
flee, his wife was driven to death and his seven-year-old son was taken
away to repay the debt by labor.
In order to safeguard the interests of serf-owners, Tibetan local rulers
formulated a series of laws. The 13-Article Code and 16-Article Code,
which were enforced for several hundred years in old Tibet, divided
people into three classes and nine ranks. They clearly stipulated that
people were unequal in legal status. The codes stipulated, "It is
forbidden to quarrel with a worthy, sage, noble and descendant of the
ruler"; "persons of the lower rank who attack those of the upper rank,
and a junior official who quarrels with a senior official commit a
serious crime and so should be detained"; "anyone who resists a master's
control should be arrested"; "a commoner who offends an official should
be arrested"; "anyone who voices grievances at the palace, behaving
disgracefully, should be arrested and whipped." The standards for
measuring punishment and the methods for dealing with people of
different classes and ranks who violated the same criminal law were
quite different. In the law concerning the penalty for murder, it was
written, "As people are divided into different classes and ranks, the
value of a life correspondingly differs." The lives of people of the
highest rank of the upper class, such as a prince or leading Living
Buddha, are calculated in gold to the same weight as the dead body. The
lives of people of the lowest rank of the lower class, such as women,
butchers, hunters and craftsmen, are worth a straw rope. In the law
concerning compensation for injury, it was stipulated that a servant who
injures his master should have his hands or feet chopped off; a master
who injures a servant is only responsible for the medical treatment for
the wound, with no other compensation required.
Making use of written or common law, the serf-owners set up
penitentiaries or private jails. Local governments had law courts and
prisons, as had large monasteries. Estate-holders could build private
prisons on their own manor ground. Punishments were extremely savage and
cruel, and included gouging out the eyes; cutting off ears, hands and
feet; pulling out tendons; and throwing people into water. In the Gandan
Monastery, one of the largest in Tibet, there were many handcuffs,
fetters, clubs and other cruel instruments of torture used for gouging
out eyes and ripping out tendons. Many materials and photos showing
limbs of serfs mutilated by serf-owners in those years are kept in the
hall housing the Tibetan Social and Historical Relics Exhibition in the
Beijing Cultural Palace of Nationalities.
Under the centuries-long feudal serfdom, the Tibetan serfs were
politically oppressed, economically exploited and frequently persecuted.
A saying circulated among serfs, "All a serf can carry away is his own
shadow, and all he can leave behind is his footprints." Old Tibet can be
said to have been one of the world's regions witnessing the most serious
violations of human rights.
Despite the cruel rule of the feudal serfdom, Tibetan laboring people
never ceased their resistance struggles. They strove for their personal
rights by making petitions, fleeing, resisting rent and corvee and even
waging armed struggle. However, they were subjected to ruthless
suppression by the three big estate-holders. The law of old Tibet
stated, "All civilians who rebel all commit felonies." In such
incidences not only the rebel himself would be killed, but his family
property would be confiscated and his wife be made a slave. The 5th
Dalai Lama once issued the order, "Commoners of Lhari Ziba listen to my
order: .... I have authorized Lhari Ziba to chop off your hands and
feet, gouge out your eyes, and beat and kill you if you again attempt to
look for freedom and comfort." This order was reiterated on many
occasions by his successors in power.
And it in no way justifies
what the Chinese are doing there now. And, the return of the Dalai Lama
to Tibet would not mean a return to the old ways. The Dalai Lama
has proposed democracy, not theocracy. When Tibetans are shocked
with torture devices for trying to practice their religion, all
but the most cold-hearted would concede that there is a serious problem,
regardless of what wrongs were being committed in old Tibet.
Indeed.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Skype callto://hellward
NFS Porsche Unleashed, Hot Pursuit 2, Underground.
Yeowww
.
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
28 Oct 2004 03:12:01 AM |
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:34:13 +0100, Jez thought carefully and wrote:
Bill Moore wrote:
...When Tibetans are shocked
with torture devices for trying to practice their religion, all but the
most cold-hearted would concede that there is a serious problem,
regardless of what wrongs were being committed in old Tibet.
Indeed.
Do you mean to show agreement?
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
28 Oct 2004 03:10:49 AM |
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:35:02 +0100, Jez thought carefully and wrote:
Bill Moore wrote:
I doubt it. And if China weren't so repressive when it comes to
religious freedom it wouldn't be an issue.
But the religious leaders in Tibet were even more oppressive than the
Chinese.
Let's see how this argument works:
Hey guys, (A) the Tibetan religious leaders are oppressing the Tibetans,
so (B) let's over throw them and (C) forbid Tibetans from practicing their
religion.
If you are claiming that (A) is a logical or moral justification for (C),
you will need to provide the details of your argument.
As far as I can tell, (A) might be logically or morally related to (B),
but I don't see how it can justify (C).
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
29 Oct 2004 09:45:39 PM |
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Dalai Lama works for the CIA.
CIA started hiring him because of the Korean war.
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| User: "Bill Moore" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
31 Oct 2004 05:33:33 PM |
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In article <f0abc8cb.0410291845.4c1d771c@posting.google.com>,
Yu <yugaung@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dalai Lama works for the CIA.
CIA started hiring him because of the Korean war.
a) The Dalai Lama hasn't worked for the CIA in years
b) Even if he does it doesn't justify the torture of
Tibetans
c) Is this like a monthly post for you or something?
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
01 Nov 2004 12:11:58 AM |
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(Bill Moore) wrote in message news:<738538718.688289@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <f0abc8cb.0410291845.4c1d771c@posting.google.com>,
Yu <yugaung@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dalai Lama works for the CIA.
CIA started hiring him because of the Korean war.
a) The Dalai Lama hasn't worked for the CIA in years
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
Show me the document that say Dalai no longer work for the CIA.
CIA ducument said Tibet House NY is their creation.
We all know Tibet house is still the focus of Dalai Lama's activities in USA.
b) Even if he does it doesn't justify the torture of
Tibetans
There is no torturing of Tibetans.
The allegations come from people with links to the UK and US propaganda organs.
c) Is this like a monthly post for you or something?
I was replying to Jim.
I usually ignore you because you are not very smart.
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| User: "Bill Moore" |
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| Title: Re: Dalai Lama |
01 Nov 2004 10:31:44 AM |
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In article <f0abc8cb.0410312211.7d670aa3@posting.google.com>,
Yu <yugaung@yahoo.com> wrote:
bmoore@blackhole.nyx.net (Bill Moore) wrote in message
news:<738538718.688289@irys.nyx.net>...
In article <f0abc8cb.0410291845.4c1d771c@posting.google.com>,
Yu <yugaung@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dalai Lama works for the CIA.
CIA started hiring him because of the Korean war.
a) The Dalai Lama hasn't worked for the CIA in years
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
Show me the document that say Dalai no longer work for the CIA.
Show me the document that says you have stopped beating your wife.
I assume all of our readers out there can see the idiocy in Yu's argument.
CIA ducument said Tibet House NY is their creation.
We all know Tibet house is still the focus of Dalai Lama's activities in USA.
b) Even if he does it doesn't justify the torture of
Tibetans
There is no torturing of Tibetans.
That would be funny if it weren't so horrible.
You are a deceitful, shameful liar.
The CCP kills, tortures and oppresses in Tibet and all over China.
Yu denies it.
What does that make him?
The allegations come from people with links to the UK and US propaganda organs.
c) Is this like a monthly post for you or something?
I was replying to Jim.
I usually ignore you because you are not very smart.
I couldn't care less what idiocy you believe.
I only reply to a fool like Yu because others might believe his lies.
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
01 Nov 2004 08:20:29 AM |
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On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:11:58 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
No. There are no such documents. You are lying.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
02 Nov 2004 02:51:54 AM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.01.14.20.29.285028@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:11:58 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
No. There are no such documents. You are lying.
Here is a declassified 1964 document on US Gov website.
Dalai Lama was paid US$180,000 a year by the CIA.
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343.html
excerpt:
The cost of the Tibetan Program for FY 1964 can be summarized in
approximate figures as follows:
a. Support of 2100 Tibetan guerrillas based in Nepal--$ 500,000
b. Subsidy to the Dalai Lama--$ 180,000
c. [1 line of source text not declassified] (equipment,
transportation, installation, and operator training costs)--$ 225,000
-----------
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
02 Nov 2004 04:32:54 AM |
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On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:51:54 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.01.14.20.29.285028@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:11:58 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
No. There are no such documents. You are lying.
Here is a declassified 1964 document on US Gov website. Dalai Lama was
paid US$180,000 a year by the CIA.
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343.html
excerpt:
The cost of the Tibetan Program for FY 1964 can be summarized in
approximate figures as follows:
a. Support of 2100 Tibetan guerrillas based in Nepal--$ 500,000
b. Subsidy to the Dalai Lama--$ 180,000
US State Department Subsidy for the DL does not equal the DL works for the
CIA.
Try again. [And fail again.]
BTW, the US government spends a lot of money on a lot of projects, some of
which even involve the CIA. The expenditure of funds does not equal CIA
employment.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
02 Nov 2004 07:55:54 PM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.02.10.32.53.68972@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:51:54 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.01.14.20.29.285028@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:11:58 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
No. There are no such documents. You are lying.
Here is a declassified 1964 document on US Gov website. Dalai Lama was
paid US$180,000 a year by the CIA.
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343.html
excerpt:
The cost of the Tibetan Program for FY 1964 can be summarized in
approximate figures as follows:
a. Support of 2100 Tibetan guerrillas based in Nepal--$ 500,000
b. Subsidy to the Dalai Lama--$ 180,000
US State Department Subsidy for the DL does not equal the DL works for the
CIA.
Jim's reply showed that this English teacher in fact can't read. Lol.
Look at the website again.
Right at the top of the page its says
----------
"SUBJECT
Review of Tibetan Operations
1. Summary--The CIA Tibetan Activity consists of political action,
propaganda, and paramilitary activity.
[...]
The Agency is supporting the establishment of Tibet Houses in [less
than 1 line of source text not declassified] Geneva, and New York
City. The Tibet Houses are intended to serve as unofficial
representation for the Dalai Lama to maintain the concept of a
separate Tibetan political identity. The Tibet House in New York City
will work closely with Tibetan supporters in the United Nations,
particularly the Malayan, Irish, and Thai delegations.
The cost of the Tibetan Program for FY 1964 can be summarized in
approximate figures as follows:
a. Support of 2100 Tibetan guerrillas based in Nepal--$ 500,000
b. Subsidy to the Dalai Lama--$ 180,000
---------------
Of course this was a CIA operation.
US State department acts as a cover for CIA activities overseas
therefore documents on CIA activities were found in US state
department.
In fact it is very foolish to think of CIA and US deplomate as
different entities.
CIA also infiltrate missioneries, disguised as teacher, human rights
activists, unionists and journalists.
Try again. [And fail again.]
BTW, the US government spends a lot of money on a lot of projects, some of
which even involve the CIA. The expenditure of funds does not equal CIA
employment.
So you are going to tell us that CIA/State Department provide
unemployment benifit to unemployed monks, Dalai Lama. Wow! $180,000 a
year, not bad!
Why is this unemployment benifit classified for 35 years?
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
03 Nov 2004 01:24:37 AM |
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On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:55:54 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.02.10.32.53.68972@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:51:54 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.01.14.20.29.285028@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:11:58 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
No. There are no such documents. You are lying.
Here is a declassified 1964 document on US Gov website. Dalai Lama
was paid US$180,000 a year by the CIA.
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343.html
excerpt:
The cost of the Tibetan Program for FY 1964 can be summarized in
approximate figures as follows:
a. Support of 2100 Tibetan guerrillas based in Nepal--$ 500,000
b. Subsidy to the Dalai Lama--$ 180,000
US State Department Subsidy for the DL does not equal the DL works for
the CIA.
Why is this unemployment benifit classified for 35 years?
Lots of stuff is classified. They have all sorts of secrets (more than is
healthy, to be sure).
Richard Gere gave money to the Dalai Lama. Is Richard Gere also his
employer?
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "ordosclan" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
10 Nov 2004 02:52:01 PM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.24.35.782131@ms74.hinet.net>...
Lots of stuff is classified. They have all sorts of secrets (more than is
healthy, to be sure).
Normal people dont have secrets.
Richard Gere gave money to the Dalai Lama. Is Richard Gere also his
employer?
Dont be stupid. Whats bought with money is paid for with labor.
Labor is the first and last price paid for every thing you buy. Adam
smith, Wealth of nations. Father of modern capitalism. Donations and
gifts are one thing. People that are sneaking around blowing each
other in back seats and spending taxpayers money to sniff pantys and
peek in keyholes, is not NORMAL OR RATIONAL OR CREDIBLE, EXCUSABLE
BEHAVIOR. Unless you are one too.... Thats the other dark side of
intelligence and law enforcement. Brotherhood. You have to defend at
all costs any other spy or undercover because if you dont. Then it
may go back to you. Thats the decorum of secrecy. Those that violate
it are not the "in group" and your enemy. The number one fear of a
closet homosexual, spy or any other anologue is to be exposed and
outed. I dont live my life in fear because I dont have secrets. Only
theifs and crooks and frauds fear exposure.
ordosclan@mail.hongkong.com
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
03 Nov 2004 07:59:38 PM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.24.35.782131@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:55:54 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.02.10.32.53.68972@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:51:54 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.01.14.20.29.285028@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:11:58 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
There are declassified CIA documents that say Dalai work for them.
No. There are no such documents. You are lying.
Here is a declassified 1964 document on US Gov website. Dalai Lama
was paid US$180,000 a year by the CIA.
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343.html
excerpt:
The cost of the Tibetan Program for FY 1964 can be summarized in
approximate figures as follows:
a. Support of 2100 Tibetan guerrillas based in Nepal--$ 500,000
b. Subsidy to the Dalai Lama--$ 180,000
US State Department Subsidy for the DL does not equal the DL works for
the CIA.
Why is this unemployment benifit classified for 35 years?
Lots of stuff is classified. They have all sorts of secrets (more than is
healthy, to be sure).
CIA have been ploting coups, assassinations, infiltrating religious
organizations. You are neglecting all these when you look at the Dalai
Lama.
Richard Gere gave money to the Dalai Lama. Is Richard Gere also his
employer?
So, CIA is some sort of Buddhist charitable organization?
It paid the Dalai Lama out of compassion?
You forget the murderous campaign conducted by the CIA in Asia and S
America.
Is this consistent with the character of the CIA?
If you don't like to call the Dalai Lama "employee of the CIA" then
call him a "collaborator" or "***** licker" of USA. It will be fine with
me.
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| User: "ordosclan" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
10 Nov 2004 02:57:41 PM |
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(Yu) wrote in message news:<f0abc8cb.0411031759.7e14d7f0@posting.google.com>...
So, CIA is some sort of Buddhist charitable organization?
It paid the Dalai Lama out of compassion?
You forget the murderous campaign conducted by the CIA in Asia and S
America.
Is this consistent with the character of the CIA?
If you don't like to call the Dalai Lama "employee of the CIA" then
call him a "collaborator" or "***** licker" of USA. It will be fine with
me.
Maybe they were paying to have their souls scanned. Maybe they have
queer tastes and wanted to try some of that man-man tantric prostage
massage or penis stretching. Maybe they wanted to see if they really
are on the side of god, and if the god they worship is indeed 6 levels
below dali lama..... Mabye dali lama is a high priced male
prostitute.
ordosclan@mail.hongkong.com
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
03 Nov 2004 11:12:28 PM |
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:59:38 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.24.35.782131@ms74.hinet.net>...
Richard Gere gave money to the Dalai Lama. Is Richard Gere also his
employer?
So, CIA is some sort of Buddhist charitable organization? It paid the
Dalai Lama out of compassion?
No. It gave him money because his continued well being served the CIA's
idea of America's interests.
So?
The Soviet Union gave CKS money for the same reason. That didn't make CKS
an employee of the Soviet Union.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 01:22:56 AM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.04.05.12.28.22428@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:59:38 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.03.07.24.35.782131@ms74.hinet.net>...
Richard Gere gave money to the Dalai Lama. Is Richard Gere also his
employer?
So, CIA is some sort of Buddhist charitable organization? It paid the
Dalai Lama out of compassion?
No. It gave him money because his continued well being served the CIA's
idea of America's interests.
So?
The Soviet Union gave CKS money for the same reason. That didn't make CKS
an employee of the Soviet Union.
He gave Mongolia away.
.
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| User: "ordosclan" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
10 Nov 2004 03:17:50 PM |
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(Yu) wrote in message news:<f0abc8cb.0411042322.4c0f39df@posting.google.com>...
The Soviet Union gave CKS money for the same reason. That didn't make CKS
an employee of the Soviet Union.
He gave Mongolia away.
Good point.
ordosclan@mail.hongkong.com
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 08:52:11 AM |
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:22:56 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.04.05.12.28.22428@ms74.hinet.net>...
The Soviet Union gave CKS money for the same reason. That didn't make
CKS an employee of the Soviet Union.
He gave Mongolia away.
Thanks for acknowledging that receipt of funds does not create an
employment relationship. Oh, you didn't mean to admit that?
Why not?
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
05 Nov 2004 08:15:20 PM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.05.14.52.11.613740@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:22:56 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.04.05.12.28.22428@ms74.hinet.net>...
The Soviet Union gave CKS money for the same reason. That didn't make
CKS an employee of the Soviet Union.
He gave Mongolia away.
Thanks for acknowledging that receipt of funds does not create an
employment relationship. Oh, you didn't mean to admit that?
Why not?
"Employment relation" can be define narrowly like you have been doing.
The fact is CIA is an organization that sepecializes in dirty
businesses like ploting coups, murdering leftists, smuggling arms,
spreading lies.
Whem they give out money they expect something in return.
The Dalai Lama's role was to spread lies and recriut connon fodder for
the United States.
.
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
06 Nov 2004 12:07:47 AM |
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:15:20 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.05.14.52.11.613740@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:22:56 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.04.05.12.28.22428@ms74.hinet.net>...
The Soviet Union gave CKS money for the same reason. That didn't
make CKS an employee of the Soviet Union.
He gave Mongolia away.
Thanks for acknowledging that receipt of funds does not create an
employment relationship. Oh, you didn't mean to admit that?
Why not?
"Employment relation" can be define narrowly like you have been doing.
Thanks for the acknowledgment that you have been misusing words.
I give money to my landlord, no employment relationship. I give money to a
family in Nepal, no employment relationship.
The fact is CIA is an organization that sepecializes in dirty businesses
like ploting coups, murdering leftists, smuggling arms, spreading lies.
And the CCP has no spies or secret police.
I have long proposed that the CIA be abolished. I believe it does more
harm than good.
How about you make the same suggestion about the CCP's secret police?
Whem they give out money they expect something in return.
Whatever. The motives behind the US financial assistance to ANY entity and
its wisdom may be challenged. But the point of your comment was that the
Dalai Lama became an employee of the CIA, doing what he was told to do.
And that is false. The Dalai Lama won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989
because of his tireless work on behalf of the Tibetan people. The claim
that the CIA made him do it isn't even ridiculous. It is ludicrous.
The Dalai Lama's role was to spread lies and recriut connon fodder for
the United States.
Really? How many soldiers has he recruited? Oh, none. I see. Problems with
misuse of language again.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
07 Nov 2004 09:33:50 PM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.06.06.07.44.411228@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:15:20 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.05.14.52.11.613740@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:22:56 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message
news:<pan.2004.11.04.05.12.28.22428@ms74.hinet.net>...
The Soviet Union gave CKS money for the same reason. That didn't
make CKS an employee of the Soviet Union.
He gave Mongolia away.
Thanks for acknowledging that receipt of funds does not create an
employment relationship. Oh, you didn't mean to admit that?
Why not?
"Employment relation" can be define narrowly like you have been doing.
Thanks for the acknowledgment that you have been misusing words.
I give money to my landlord, no employment relationship. I give money to a
family in Nepal, no employment relationship.
When CIA gave money it's to to help the poor.
In fact declassified CIA documents stated clearly the the objective of
their Tibet operation was propaganda and military, so, there is no
need to tell me that your granda gave you money for your birthday to
proof the the Dalai Lama is innocent.
The fact is CIA is an organization that sepecializes in dirty businesses
like ploting coups, murdering leftists, smuggling arms, spreading lies.
And the CCP has no spies or secret police.
I am sure CCP know a lot about CSB and how to take him out.
I have long proposed that the CIA be abolished. I believe it does more
harm than good.
But you believe, somehow, the Dalai Lama is innocent dispite of taking
money from CIA and those websites run by the NED/CIA are telling the
truth.
How about you make the same suggestion about the CCP's secret police?
For example,it is very important to know what CSB is up to and where
is is nuclear programe heading.
Whem they give out money they expect something in return.
Whatever. The motives behind the US financial assistance to ANY entity and
its wisdom may be challenged. But the point of your comment was that the
Dalai Lama became an employee of the CIA, doing what he was told to do.
If you don't like the term employee you may call Dalai a collaborator
of the CIA.
And that is false. The Dalai Lama won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989
because of his tireless work on behalf of the Tibetan people. The claim
that the CIA made him do it isn't even ridiculous. It is ludicrous.
CIA documents on funding of the Dalai Lama were declassified in 1998.
The Dalai Lama's role was to spread lies and recriut connon fodder for
the United States.
Really? How many soldiers has he recruited? Oh, none. I see. Problems with
misuse of language again.
CIA document in 1964 stated about 2000. There could be more after
1964.
.
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| User: "Jim Walsh" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
08 Nov 2004 08:31:25 AM |
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On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 19:33:50 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
Your comments have so little to do with what I said, I will delete my
words from this follow-up.
When CIA gave money it's to to help the poor.
False.
In fact declassified CIA documents stated clearly the the objective of
their Tibet operation was propaganda and military,
Agree. And I doubt the sincerity of Richard Gere when gives money to the
Dalia Lama. He probably thinks it raises his box office or maybe increases
his chances of getting laid.
so, there is no need to tell me that your granda gave you money for your
birthday to proof the the Dalai Lama is innocent.
The recipient of the money is not contaminated by the motives of the
giver.
I am sure CCP know a lot about CSB and how to take him out.
If CSB were murdered by the CCP, the new President would be the current
VP. Killing Chen would increase hatred for the CCP in Taiwan.
But you believe, somehow, the Dalai Lama is innocent dispite of taking
money from CIA...
Yes.
and those websites run by the NED/CIA are telling the truth.
I don't know which "websites" run by NED/CIA you are referring to. Give me
a URL, and I will tell you what I think of it.
If you don't like the term employee you may call Dalai a collaborator of
the CIA.
No. The word "collaborator" does not apply. Try beneficiary.
CIA documents on funding of the Dalai Lama were declassified in 1998.
Duh? And this means?
CIA document in 1964 stated about 2000. There could be more after 1964.
And weirdly, YOU believe the CIA. If the CIA reported that it was raining
in Taipei, I would look out the window and check. Unless I saw rain, I
would not believe the report.
--
Love, Jim
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "Yu" |
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| Title: Re: Lying about the Dalai Lama |
09 Nov 2004 12:36:33 AM |
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Jim Walsh <jimwalsh@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.08.14.31.23.475322@ms74.hinet.net>...
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 19:33:50 -0800, Yu thought carefully and wrote:
so, there is no need to tell me that your granda gave you money for your
birthday to proof the the Dalai Lama is innocent.
The recipient of the money is not contaminated by the motives of the
giver.
The recipient have to perform certain service to justify CIA's
expenditure or the auditor general will ask nasty questions.
Where as Richard Gere or your grandmother do not answer to the auditor
general, the CIA do. Therefore the Dalai Lama having received money
must have performed certain duties for the US Gov. If you don't like
the term Employer-employee relationship you can call a Dalai CIA
collaborator.
I am sure CCP know a lot about CSB and how to take him out.
If CSB were murdered by the CCP, the new President would be the current
VP. Killing Chen would increase hatred for the CCP in Taiwan.
VP will be liquidated together with the Primere
But you believe, somehow, the Dalai Lama is innocent dispite of taking
money from CIA...
Yes.
Dishonesty showing up.
and those websites run by the NED/CIA are telling the truth.
I don't know which "websites" run by NED/CIA you are referring to. Give me
a URL, and I will tell you what I think of it.
Read all my posts from the google.
It will make you wiser.
There is no substitution for a good education from me.
If you don't like the term employee you may call Dalai a collaborator of
the CIA.
No. The word "collaborator" does not apply. Try beneficiary.
try "traitor".
CIA documents on funding of the Dalai Lama were declassified in 1998.
Duh? And this means?
Dalai obtained the Nobel prize before CIA declassified its Tibet
files.
CIA document in 1964 stated about 2000. There could be more after 1964.
And weirdly, YOU believe the CIA. If the CIA reported that it was raining
in Taipei, I would look out the window and check. Unless I saw rain, I
would not believe the report.
But the Dalai Lama admited it himself.
He said CIA did it for the interest of USA.
Naturally he wouldn't call himself a collaborator or a traitor, but
that is understood.
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