Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?

Religions > Atheism > Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 4 of 12

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"david ford"
Date:	30 Jun 2004 07:33:31 AM
Object:	Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
.

User: "maff"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 05:57:59 AM

(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050332.5d5fee21@posting.google.com>...

"Steven J." <sjt1957NOSPAM@nts.link.net.INVALID> wrote in message news:<10egld42b1vupe7@corp.supernews.com>...
"david ford" <

> wrote in message news:b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93@posting.google.com...

From Darwin to Hitler
Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany
Richard Weikart
2004 (Hardback), Palgrave MacMillan, 312 pp.

Item# B089Suggested Donation:
$50 (includes USPS Media Mail shipping to addresses in
US/Canada/Mexico)
$55 (includes surface shipping to all other foreign addresses)

In this compelling and painstakingly researched work of intellectual
history, Richard Weikart explains the revolutionary impact Darwinism
had on ethics and morality. He demonstrates that many leading
Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that
Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment
ethics, especially those pertaining to the sacredness of human life.
Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously
exalted evolutionary "fitness" (especially in terms of intelligence
and health) as the highest arbiter of morality. Weikart concludes
that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but
also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination,
all ultimately embraced by the Nazis. He convincingly makes the
disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian
principles rather than nihilistic ones. From Darwin to Hitler is a
provocative yet balanced work that should encourage a rethinking of
the historical impact that Darwinism had on the course of events in
the twentieth century.

In your original post, you asked what contribution to the Holocaust were
made by four specific people: Darwin, Huxley, Haeckel, and Nietzche (the
last not, generally, being considered a major theorist on either the
pathways or mechanisms of descent with modification). Here, though, your
source is discussing "Darwinism," and "many leading Darwinian biologists and
social thinkers."

Darwin, Huxley, and Haeckel could be described as "Darwinian
biologists," while Nietzsche could be described as a "social thinker."

What has Biology got to do with sociology?

Now, the point has already been raised (surprising seldom in this thread,
though) that the social consequences of a scientific theory are not what
makes it a correct or incorrect theory. You have not, so far as I can tell,
addressed this point: if Darwin *did* contribute to the Holocaust,

Which he did.

You need more than assertions by Christian fascist, David Ford.
Why would Hitler and the Nazis need Darwin? They had God on their
side. Do you have any citation which mentions Darwin?
"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially
of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word
be desecrated.
For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their
abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's
creation, the divine will. Therefore, let every man be active, each in
his own denomination if you please, and let every man take it as his
first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by
word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and
tries to butt into the other."
.... Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
fighting for the work of the Lord."
- Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf"
"Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as
before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the
church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by
his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index
of Forbidden Books. "
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_haught/holy.html
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the
passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and
seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and
adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison."
Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more
profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had
to shed his blood upon the Cross."
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I
have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice..."
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting
rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I
have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see
them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they
have only for their wages wretchedness and misery."
When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their
queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no
Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not,
as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom
today this poor people are plundered and exploited."
- Adolf Hitler, "My New Order"
PIUS XII
Eugenio Pacelli, Pope 1939 - 1958
"His Holiness, Pius XII, the best anti-democrat in the world," as he
was in 1950 (!) proudly titled by Ecclesia, official organ of the
Spanish Catholic Action in an attempt to pay him the greatest tribute
a Catholic paper could pay, earlier in his career, as we have seen,
had helped Hitler to come to power in Germany. His policy as a pope
was faithful to his predecessor. When the Spanish republic was finally
defeated by Catholic troops under Franco, would-be dictator of Spain,
the pope sent a special message to the victors:
"With great joy we address you, dearest sons of Catholic Spain,
to express our paternal congratulations for the gift of peace and
victory with which God has chosen to crown the Christian heroism of
your faith
... We give you, our dear sons of Catholic Spain, our apostolic
benediction." [4/17/1939]
Church property and all medieval (!) privileges of the Church were
restored. No other religion was allowed. Protestants and ex-Catholics
were sent to concentration camps for refusing to attend divine
service. Freethinkers, democrats, Socialists and Communists were
deprived of civil rights,imprisoned, or shot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pius XI, in his own words a "man with no love for democracy," helped
to bring Mussolini's Fascist Party to power in Italy and in 1926
solemnly declared: "Mussolini is a man sent by Divine Providence."
[MC247] In 1935 Fascist Italy attacked and invaded Abyssinia. Since
the population of Italy lacked enthusiasm for this aggression, the
pope hastened to declare a new crusade. For example the Archbishop of
Tarent, holding a Holy Mass on a submarine, declared: "The war against
Abyssinia should be viewed as a Holy War, as a crusade," which also
opened "Ethiopia, the land of infidels and schismatics, to the
catholic Faith."
The pope's emissary in Germany, Papal Nuncio Eugenio Pacelli, the
future Pope Pius XII, helped to demolish the young Weimar republic.
After the liberal democratic Catholic leader Erzberger had been
assassinated, the Pope's exertions became directed to the support of
all Right-Wing movements in Germany, via the influence of the Catholic
Centre Party. On march 23, 1933, the German Reichstag met, and the
Catholic Party, led by its Catholic leaders, former chancellor Br�ning
and prelate Mgr. Kaas, personal friend of Pacelli, voted for Catholic
Hitler. After this, having received, directly from the Vatican, orders
to disband, the Catholic Party dissolved. Preached Pacelli to the
German Catholics:
"...it is all the more necessary that the Catholics, deprived of
diplomatic representation, should find in the diplomatic pacts between
the Holy See and the National Socialist Government guarantees which
can assure them ... the maintenance of their position in the life of
the nation."
Mgr. Kaas, leader of the dissolved Catholic Party, put it even more
bluntly: Catholics must support Hitler, he said. They should not have
any fears about it. For Hitler's ideals were "noble ideals."
Furthermore, "Hitler knows well how to guide the ship." In this way
the first successful democracy on german soil had been destroyed.
[MC250-252]
Hitler and 1,700 years of Christian anti-semitism
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm
Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html
Anti-Semitism and Holocaust
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/Subject=Holocaust%2C%20Jewish%20%281939-1945%29/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/Subject=Jews/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/Subject=Holocaust/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/Subject=Christianity%20and%20antisemitism/
Jew Jews Jewish
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Jew+OR+Jews+OR+Jewish&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Jew+OR+Jews+OR+Jewish&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Jew+OR+Jews+OR+Jewish&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_oq=Jew%20Jews%20Jewish&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Semite Semites semitic semitism
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Semite+OR+Semites+OR+semitic+OR+semitism&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Semite+OR+Semites+OR+semitic+OR+semitism&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Semite+OR+Semites+OR+semitic+OR+semitism&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_oq=Semite%20Semites%20semitic%20semitism&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Holocaust OR Shoah
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Holocaust+OR+Shoah&sa=N&tab=wn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Holocaust+OR+Shoah&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+Holocaust+OR+Shoah&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_oq=Holocaust%20Shoah&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en

would
that make common descent or natural selection false?

No.

So you agree that your crimes in the name of God deserves the death
penalty?

[SJ]"the social consequences of a scientific theory"
The theory of natural selection has been falsified. Ref:
Synthetic Euphoria URLs
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406291601.455e9ae%40posting.google.com

It says nothing of the kind. Are you prepared for the consequences of
your fascist crimes in the name of God?

But, as the FAQ on Darwin's precursors, and the independent discovery of
common descent by natural selection by Wallace, rather strongly imply,
"Darwinism" would have existed had Darwin never been born, or had he gone
into the ministry and never written on science. Or you might consider, more
strongly than you seem to have done, Wilkin's point that the features of
"Darwinian" thought usually identified as "Social Darwinist" were all, in
fact, shared by many thinkers of Darwin's time and before, and not dependent
on him, personally.

In short, you can't seem to decide if you're condemning the idiosyncratic
ideas of a small number of individuals, or tendencies in culture,
philosophy, and science that were broad-based and whose roots were already
in place by the time Darwin was born.

User: "Steven Carr"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 06:35:59 AM

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:57:59 +0000 (UTC),

(maff)
wrote:
<skip>

You need more than assertions by Christian fascist, David Ford.
Why would Hitler and the Nazis need Darwin? They had God on their
side. Do you have any citation which mentions Darwin?

From Hitler's Table Talk
'Die zehn Gebote sind Ordnungsgesetze, die absolut lobenswert sind.'
'The Ten Commandments are laws for order, which are totally
praiseworthy.'
Hitler himself was a creationist, at least as far as humans were
concerned. We read for the night of 25 and 26 July 1942 'From where do
we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not
what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of
plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside
a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump , as Man
must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state
to what he is today.'
And the entry for 27 February 1942 says 'Das, was der Mensch von dem
Tier voraushat, der veilleicht wunderbarste Beweis fuer die
Ueberlegenheit des Menschen ist, dass er begriffen hat, dass es eine
Schoepferkraft geben muss.'
'That, which Man has over the animals, the probably wonderfullest
proof for the superiority of mankind is, that he has understood, that
there must be a creative power.'
Steven Carr
steven@bowness.demon.co.uk
http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/
.

User: "maff"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 02:23:38 PM

(Steven Carr) wrote in message news:<40ea8c33.471587@news.demon.co.uk>...

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:57:59 +0000 (UTC),

(maff)
wrote:

<skip>

You need more than assertions by Christian fascist, David Ford.

Why would Hitler and the Nazis need Darwin? They had God on their
side. Do you have any citation which mentions Darwin?

From Hitler's Table Talk

The credibility of Hitler's Table Talk is disputed.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Hitler%20%22Table%20Talk%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=gw
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Hitler%20%22Table%20Talk%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wg

'Die zehn Gebote sind Ordnungsgesetze, die absolut lobenswert sind.'

'The Ten Commandments are laws for order, which are totally
praiseworthy.'

Hitler himself was a creationist, at least as far as humans were
concerned. We read for the night of 25 and 26 July 1942 'From where do
we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not
what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of
plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside
a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump , as Man
must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state
to what he is today.'

And the entry for 27 February 1942 says 'Das, was der Mensch von dem
Tier voraushat, der veilleicht wunderbarste Beweis fuer die
Ueberlegenheit des Menschen ist, dass er begriffen hat, dass es eine
Schoepferkraft geben muss.'

'That, which Man has over the animals, the probably wonderfullest
proof for the superiority of mankind is, that he has understood, that
there must be a creative power.'
Steven Carr

http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/

User: "Steven Carr"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 06:10:10 PM

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:23:38 +0000 (UTC),

(maff)
wrote:

steven@bowness.demon.co.uk (Steven Carr) wrote in message news:<40ea8c33.471587@news.demon.co.uk>...

From Hitler's Table Talk

The credibility of Hitler's Table Talk is disputed.

That is why I am careful to use the original German by one of the
actual stenographers, and not English translations from a dubious
French version.
Steven Carr
steven@bowness.demon.co.uk
http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/
.

User: "John Wilkins"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 06:32:35 PM

Steven Carr <steven@bowness.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:23:38 +0000 (UTC),

(maff)
wrote:

steven@bowness.demon.co.uk (Steven Carr) wrote:

From Hitler's Table Talk

The credibility of Hitler's Table Talk is disputed.

That is why I am careful to use the original German by one of the
actual stenographers, and not English translations from a dubious
French version.

At least do us a favour and translate "wunderbarste" as "most wonderful"
:-)
--
John Wilkins
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au http://wilkins.id.au
"Men mark it when they hit, but do not mark it when they miss"
- Francis Bacon
.

User: "Mitchell Coffey"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	04 Jul 2004 02:53:07 AM

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:28:02 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>...

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:20 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

[snip]

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

Bad link, but no mind.

The link worked for me. There is the text:

From Darwin to Hitler
Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany
Richard Weikart
2004 (Hardback), Palgrave MacMillan, 312 pp.

Item# B089Suggested Donation:
$50 (includes USPS Media Mail shipping to addresses in
US/Canada/Mexico)
$55 (includes surface shipping to all other foreign addresses)

In this compelling and painstakingly researched work of intellectual
history, Richard Weikart explains the revolutionary impact Darwinism
had on ethics and morality. He demonstrates that many leading
Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that
Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment
ethics, especially those pertaining to the sacredness of human life.
Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously
exalted evolutionary "fitness" (especially in terms of intelligence
and health) as the highest arbiter of morality. Weikart concludes
that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but
also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination,
all ultimately embraced by the Nazis. He convincingly makes the
disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian
principles rather than nihilistic ones. From Darwin to Hitler is a
provocative yet balanced work that should encourage a rethinking of
the historical impact that Darwinism had on the course of events in
the twentieth century.

Endorsements:
Richard Weikart's outstanding book shows in sober and convincing
detail how Darwinist thinkers in Germany had developed an amoral
attitude to human society by the time of the First World War, in which
the supposed good of the race was applied as the sole criterion of
public policy and 'racial hygiene'. Without over-simplifying the
lines that connected this body of thought to Hitler, he demonstrates
with chilling clarity how policies such as infanticide, assisted
suicide, marriage prohibitions and much else were being proposed for
those considered racially or eugenically inferior by a variety of
Darwinist writers and scientists, providing Hitler and the Nazis with
a scientific justification for the policies they pursued once they
came to power.
-- Dr. Richard Evans, Professor of Modern History, University of
Cambridge, and author of The Coming of the Third Reich

This is one of the finest examples of intellectual history I have seen
in a long while. It is insightful, thoughtful, informative, and
highly readable. Rather than simply connecting the dots, so to speak,
the author provides a sophisticated and nuanced examination of
numerous German thinkers of the late nineteenth and early twentieth
centuries who were influenced to one degree or another by Darwinist
naturalism and their ideas, subtly drawing both distinctions and
similarities and in the process telling a rich and colorful story.
-- Ian Dowbiggin, Professor of History at the University of Prince
Edward Island and author of A Merciful End: The Euthanasia Movement in
Modern America

This is an impressive piece of intellectual and cultural history--a
well-researched, clearly presented argument with good, balanced, fair
judgments. Weikart has a thorough knowledge of the relevant
historiography in both German and English."
-- Alfred Kelly, Edgar B. Graves Professor of History, Hamilton
College, and author of The Descent of Darwin: The Popularization of
Darwinism in Germany, 1860-1914

This is truly a well-crafted work of intellectual history, and one
directly relevant to some of the most consequential ethical
discussions of our present time. Christians and all people of good
will would do well to ponder these arguments, recognizing how easily
the best and brightest can commit the worst and darkest under the
progressive banner of biological "health and fitness." The book
should provoke much debate and discussion, not only among historians
but among ethicists and scientists too.
--Thomas Albert Howard, Associate Professor of History, Gordon
College, author of Protestant Theology and the Making of the Modern
German University (forthcoming)

The philosophy that fueled German militarism and Hitlerism is taught
as fact in every American public school, with no disagreement allowed.
Every parent ought to know this story, which Weikart persuasively
explains.
--Phillip Johnson, Professor Emeritus of Law, University of
California, Berkeley, and author of Darwin on Trial and Reason in the
Balance

If you think moral issues like infanticide, assisted suicide, and
tampering with human genes are new, read this book. It draws a clear
and chilling picture of the way Darwinian naturalism led German
thinkers to treat human life as raw materials to be manipulated in
order to advance the course of evolution. The ethics of Hitler's
Germany were not reactionary; they were very much "cutting edge" and
in line with the scientific understanding of the day. Weikart's
implicit warning is that as long as the same assumption of Darwinian
naturalism reigns in educated circles in our own day, it may well lead
to similar practices.
--Nancy Pearcey, co-author of The Soul of Science and How Now Shall We
Live

Richard Weikart's masterful work offers a compelling case that the
eugenics movement, and all the political and social consequences that
have flowed from it, would have been unlikely if not for the cultural
elite's enthusiastic embracing of the Darwinian account of life,
morality, and social institutions. Professor Weikart reminds us, with
careful scholarship and circumspect argument, that the truth uttered
by Richard Weaver decades ago is indeed a fixed axiom of human
institutions: "ideas have consequences."
--Francis J. Beckwith, Associate Director, J.M. Dawson Institute of
Church-State Studies, and Associate Professor of Church-State Studies,
Baylor University

About the Author
Richard Weikart is an associate professor of modern European history
at California State University, Stanislaus. He has lived in Germany
over five years, including one year on a Fulbright Fellowship. He has
published two previous books, including Socialist Darwinism: Evolution
in German Socialist Thought from Marx to Bernstein (1999), as well as
articles in German Studies Review, Journal of the History of Ideas,
Isis, European Legacy, and History of European Ideas.

Table of Contents
Illustrations
Preface
Introduction

1. Laying New Foundations for Ethics
1 The Origin of Ethics and the Rise of Moral Relativism
2 Evolutionary Progress as the Highest Good
3 Organizing Evolutionary Ethics

2. Devaluing Human Life
4 The Value of Life and the Value of Death
5 The Specter of Inferiority: Devaluing the Disabled and
"Unproductive"
6 The Science of Racial Inequality

3. Eliminating the "Inferior Ones"
7 Controlling Reproduction: Overturning Traditional Sexual Morality
8 Killing the "Unfit"
9 War and Peace
10 Racial Struggle and Extermination

4. Impacts
11 Hitler's Ethics

Conclusion

Notes
Bibliography
Index

I take it you've already read whatever this
book may be,

I haven't yet. I did, though, read the text above, and the chapter
"Adolf Hitler: Neo-Darwinism and Genocide" in Koster's book, the
table of contents of which appears at the end of
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406230445.7cff0545%40posting.google.com

Ideas have consequences.

Indeed they do. What was the response of German Lutheran and Catholic
churches to Krystalnacht, compared to their reaction a year latter to
the mass murder of mentally ill and retarded Germans a year later?
On the other hand, facts are facts even if you think they have bad
consequences.

otherwise you're admitting that you made that dispicable
implication without knowing any evidence, but will spout whatever may
turn up in that book. No wonder you praised a antisemitic, Holocaust
deyiing site, because they happen to be Creationist.

[MC]"you praised a" Remind me, when did I do that? I suspect that
you're confusing me with another person.

No, I'm not. I'm referring to your comments in the thread "Re: Harun
Yahya and Holocaust denial," on June 28 and after.

or should we take your inability to
respond as a tacit agreement that there is no such connection?

I've been familiar with Weikart's book for several years now, ever
since the Discovery Institute announced they were paying him to write
a book with that title.
Mitchell Coffey
.

User: "david ford"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	05 Jul 2004 06:05:24 AM

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<0gdfe01b6e8bsq40mtlqtevhfg31260m8c@4ax.com>...

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:28:02 +0000 (UTC),

(david ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>...

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

Bad link, but no mind.

I take it you've already read whatever this
book may be,

I don't know. What?

On the other hand, facts are facts even if you think they have bad
consequences.

Are you suggesting that a particular something or somethings is a
"fact" even though it has [MC]"bad consequences"? If so, what are
some of these "facts"?

[MC]"you praised a" Remind me, when did I do that? I suspect that
you're confusing me with another person.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

I'm referring to your comments in the thread "Re: Harun
Yahya and Holocaust denial," on June 28 and after.

I'm afraid you will have to be more specific than that should you wish
me to retract my supposed (non-existent, more-precisely)
[MC]"praise[ing of] a antisemitic, Holocaust deyiing site."

or should we take your inability to
respond as a tacit agreement that there is no such connection?

I've been familiar with Weikart's book for several years now, ever
since the Discovery Institute announced they were paying him to write
a book with that title.

Are you, also, going to get the book, so that we can have a discussion
about its contents?
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
.

User: "Mitchell Coffey"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 01:26:50 AM

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:05:24 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<0gdfe01b6e8bsq40mtlqtevhfg31260m8c@4ax.com>...

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:28:02 +0000 (UTC),

(david ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>...

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

[snip]

I take it you've already read whatever this
book may be,

I don't know. What?

They didn't lift a finger over Krystalnacht, and the persecution of
Jews in general. They undertook a national dialogue in their churches
on the subject of the mass murder of the "mentally unfit." There was
a great deal of support for the policy, particularly among the
Lutherans, but in the end both churches opposed the program and,
through public opposition, shut it down.
The end of the murder of the "unfit" is to both churches' lasting
credit. But it shows that they could effect decisive opposition to
core Nazi policy as late as 1939 and 1940. Their failure to act on
the persecution of the Jews prior to that appears to be willful.
If we agree that ideas have consequences we should be consistent about
it.

On the other hand, facts are facts even if you think they have bad
consequences.

Are you suggesting that a particular something or somethings is a
"fact" even though it has [MC]"bad consequences"? If so, what are
some of these "facts"?

I meant exactly what I wrote. A fact is a fact regardless of its
consequences. You wrote 'Ideas have consequences." I assume you
don't believe that evolutionary theory is wrong because of it's
consequences, but I feel it's always good to make an explicit
reminder.

[MC]"you praised a" Remind me, when did I do that? I suspect that
you're confusing me with another person.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

I'm referring to your comments in the thread "Re: Harun
Yahya and Holocaust denial," on June 28 and after.

I'm afraid you will have to be more specific than that should you wish
me to retract my supposed (non-existent, more-precisely)
[MC]"praise[ing of] a antisemitic, Holocaust deyiing site."

Excuse me, "thanked," not "praised." A post gave a link to "The
official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust denial book
[...]." All you could bring yourself to do in reaction to their filth
was to note that they believe in ID and to thank them for some useful
information: http://tinyurl.com/23m9b .

or should we take your inability to
respond as a tacit agreement that there is no such connection?

I've been familiar with Weikart's book for several years now, ever
since the Discovery Institute announced they were paying him to write
a book with that title.

Are you, also, going to get the book, so that we can have a discussion
about its contents?

I'm going to get the book, but I don't see much evidence that you are
interested in having discussions. The one time you suggested I
respond to a post of your so we could have a discussion about it I did
but you disappeared.

1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com

This quote from the Wannsee Conference Protocol does not justify the
Final Solution by claiming it is natural selection. Their assertion
was that the Final Solution was necessary as a counter to natural
selection.

1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com

It also embraces artificial selection and God. One could probably
tease out of it other things it embraces. By the same standards of
evidence Nazis embraced a lot of things you probably like, and
embraced them a whole lot more often.
One of the reasons quote mining is not generally embraced by
historians is that it is almost always misleading, exactly in the way
you are being misleading above. The fact that Creationist usually
drag out the same four or five quotes to demonstrate that the Nazis
were heavily influenced by "Darwinism" suggests that there really are
only about four or five quotes that arguably connect Nazis with
"Darwinism."
Now, I gotta tell you, those Nazis were pretty wordy folk. My copy of
Mein Kampf, for instance, runs on to 688 pages of rather small type.
In those pages Hitler discusses damn near everything; as I recall, at
one point he expends a page or so pontificating on the caliber of WWI
German battleship cannon. His opinion that the Hochseeflotte should
have adopted heavier main armament was *strong*! And yet he doesn't
mention Darwin, or Darwinism, or natural selection, or survival of the
fittest.
I'll be honest with you, in the last few years I've been surprised to
discover how seldom Nazis actually referenced "Darwinist" ideas and
metaphors. The deviation of the truth from the conventional wisdom is
particularly striking if you compare the infrequency of their
"Darwinist" references with their avalanche of references to other
ideas and metaphors. Their use of medical metaphors, for instance,
dwarfs their evocations of "Darwinism." Context is all in history and
there's a reason Creationist shy from it.
Mitchell Coffey
.

User: "Colin Day"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	04 Jul 2004 10:29:39 AM

david ford wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>...

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:20 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

[snip]

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

Bad link, but no mind.

I don't remember any courses on Hegel or Fichte being offered at my school.
And by the way, what does Johnson know of Darwin?
Colin Day aa #1500
.

User: "david ford"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	05 Jul 2004 06:14:36 AM

Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<40E827FB.9030701@sc.rr.com>...

david ford wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>...

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:20 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

[snip]

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

Bad link, but no mind.

The philosophy that fueled German militarism and Hitlerism is taught
as fact in every American public school, with no disagreement allowed.
Every parent ought to know this story, which Weikart persuasively
explains.
--Phillip Johnson, Professor Emeritus of Law, University of
California, Berkeley, and author of Darwin on Trial and Reason in the
Balance

I don't remember any courses on Hegel or Fichte being offered at my school.

Nor I.

And by the way, what does Johnson know of Darwin?

According to Raup, Johnson knows [Raup]"99 percent of evolutionary
biology."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.44L.01.0311130100280.1363-100000%40linux1.gl.umbc.edu
.

User: "Orac"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	04 Jul 2004 04:23:58 PM

In article <40E82A71.5010302@sc.rr.com>, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com>
wrote:

Orac wrote:

In article <fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>,
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net>
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in
message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:20 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

[snip]

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

Bad link, but no mind. I take it you've already read whatever this
book may be, otherwise you're admitting that you made that dispicable
implication without knowing any evidence, but will spout whatever may
turn up in that book.

Considering that one of the blurbs is from Phillip Johnson, a
creationist loony, I'll take that with a grain of salt, thank you.

Yeah, I just noticed that later, as I read more. Still Richard Evans is
a respected WWII historian, so ya pays your money and ya takes your
chances. (Except, I'm not sure if I want to pays my money, when the book
is over $50...)
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
.

User: "Colin Day"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	04 Jul 2004 05:36:58 PM

Orac wrote:

In article <40E82A71.5010302@sc.rr.com>, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com>
wrote:

Orac wrote:

In article <fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>,
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net>
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in
message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:20 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

[snip]

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

Considering that one of the blurbs is from Phillip Johnson, a
creationist loony, I'll take that with a grain of salt, thank you.

The question remains, what does Prof. Evans mean by "Darwinism"?
Colin Day aa #1500
.

User: "Orac"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	05 Jul 2004 11:31:41 AM

In article <40E88C35.7090803@sc.rr.com>, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com>
wrote:

Orac wrote:

[Snip]

The question remains, what does Prof. Evans mean by "Darwinism"?

Actually, I'm more interested in what Weikart means by "Darwinism." In
any case, I suspect that the definition of "Darwinism" is at the heart
of the disagreement about how much Darwinism influenced Nazi racial
policies. ;-)
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
.

User: "Orac"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	03 Jul 2004 09:09:06 AM

In article <fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>,
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net>
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in
message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:20 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

[snip]

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

The link was OK for me. The book was:
Weikart, Richard. From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics,
and Racism in Germany. Palgrave MacMillan, 2004.
The book description on Amazon says:
"From Darwin to Hitler" elucidates the revolutionary impact Darwinism
had on ethics and morality. Weikart demonstrates that many leading
Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that
Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment
ethics, especially the view that human life is sacred. Many of these
thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously exalted
evolutionary "fitness" (especially intelligence and health) as the
highest arbiter of morality. Darwinism played a key role in the rise not
only of eugenics, but also euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial
extermination. This thinking had its biggest impact on Germany, since
Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles, not on nihilism
as popularly believed.
It's a rather expensive book (and brand new, having only been released
in May), but it looks fascinating. One of the blurbs praising it is from
Richard Evans, who is an excellent historian of the Third Reich. You
could certainly argue with Weikart's thesis, but he is not the first to
postulate this. I may have to evaluate for myself if he's done the most
comprehensive and convincing argument for this thesis.
Other reading on the subject:
Proctor, Robert N. Racial hygiene: Medicine under the Nazis. Harvard
Press: Cambridge. 1988.
Finally, it may well be that the person who started this thread was
trolling, choosing an intentionally inflammatory way of framing the
question, but it is NOT unreasonable or "despicable" to wonder about the
contribution of Darwinian concepts (and, of course, their gross
misapplication and perversion) to the Holocaust. Well-respected
historians have been asking that question for decades.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
.

User: "Colin Day"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	04 Jul 2004 10:39:55 AM

Orac wrote:

In article <fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>,
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net>
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdotnet@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in
message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:20 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

[snip]

Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,

Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm

Considering that one of the blurbs is from Phillip Johnson, a
creationist loony, I'll take that with a grain of salt, thank you.
Colin Day aa #1500
.

User: "John Thomas Grisham"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	07 Jul 2004 12:39:07 PM

(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0406300435.4503cee7@posting.google.com>...

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?

T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?

Darwin's Natural Selection challenged the paternalistic order of the
19th century, on which the traditional fixed values of the society
were based. It becomes apparent that the gender making natural
selection isn't male and therefore conditions that forced women into
servitude to men were "unnaturalistic". Coincidentially, this was
occurring as women's rights were already advancing. Communism
incorporated the equality of the sexes as a further means to challenge
the status quo of 19th century economics. Fascism is correctly seen as
a reactionist response to communism. The Jews were a convenient means
to tap into existing Anti-Semitism for the purpose of conditioning the
public to acts of extreme cruelty and injustice, thereby establishing
a totalitarian paternalistic order that could effectively ignore the
implications of natural selection.
This would explain why Hitler practiced sexual abstinance. In his
mind, he was the paternalistic state. The size of his member and his
ability to perform were state secrets. Since women make the selection
of what males are "valued" and allowed to reproduce, any criticism of
the state's qualifications to do so had to be avoided or else the sole
authority for a paternalistic order would have been redefined
maternalistically. A believable rumor in 1931 that Hitler had a small
***** and couldn't satisfy the ladies under the implications of natural
selection conceivably may have been enough to prevent Hilter's rise to
power and avoid World War II.
JTG 7/7/04
.

User: "mvillanu"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 03:15:22 AM

(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0406300435.4503cee7@posting.google.com>...

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?

T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?

If we are going to blame Darwin for the Holocaust then we should also
blame Newton for the scores of people, soldiers and civilians, that
have been killed by conventional artillery shells lobbed toward them
in (more or less) parabolic trajectories.
.

User: "Richard Forrest"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 10:57:32 AM

(mvillanu) wrote in message news:<dc4a405f.0407060019.4dc0ed7d@posting.google.com>...

dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0406300435.4503cee7@posting.google.com>...

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?

T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?

And let's blame Lister and Pasteur for germ warfare.
RF
.

User: "mvillanu"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 07:27:20 PM

(Richard Forrest) wrote in message news:<892cb437.0407060801.1f539e9c@posting.google.com>...

mvillanu@hotmail.com (mvillanu) wrote in message news:<dc4a405f.0407060019.4dc0ed7d@posting.google.com>...

dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0406300435.4503cee7@posting.google.com>...

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?

T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?

And let's blame Lister and Pasteur for germ warfare.

RF

And blame Maxwell and his Evil Equations for people like Howard Stern.
.

User: "John Wilkins"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 07:47:51 PM

mvillanu <mvillanu@hotmail.com> wrote:

richard@plesiosaur.com (Richard Forrest) wrote...

mvillanu@hotmail.com (mvillanu) wrote...

dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote...

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?

T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?

And let's blame Lister and Pasteur for germ warfare.

RF

And blame Maxwell and his Evil Equations for people like Howard Stern.

YM Marconi, right?
--
John Wilkins
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au http://wilkins.id.au
"Men mark it when they hit, but do not mark it when they miss"
- Francis Bacon
.

User: "Tony Curtis"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 07:59:05 PM

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:47:51 +0000 (UTC),
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au (John Wilkins) said:
And blame Maxwell and his Evil Equations for people like
Howard Stern.

YM Marconi, right?

No, Maxwell.
Or is this some covert Robert Rankin Scottish reference?
.

User: "John Wilkins"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 08:18:52 PM

Tony Curtis <tony_curtis32@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:47:51 +0000 (UTC),
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au (John Wilkins) said:

And blame Maxwell and his Evil Equations for people like
Howard Stern.

YM Marconi, right?

No, Maxwell.

Or is this some covert Robert Rankin Scottish reference?

Bah. Maxwell just did the physics. Marconi is the real culprit WRT
radio.
--
John Wilkins
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au http://wilkins.id.au
"Men mark it when they hit, but do not mark it when they miss"
- Francis Bacon
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 11:32:40 PM

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:18:52 +0000 (UTC),

(John
Wilkins) wrote:

Tony Curtis <tony_curtis32@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:47:51 +0000 (UTC),

(John Wilkins) said:

And blame Maxwell and his Evil Equations for people like
Howard Stern.

YM Marconi, right?

No, Maxwell.

Or is this some covert Robert Rankin Scottish reference?

Bah. Maxwell just did the physics. Marconi is the real culprit WRT
radio.

Ah, but in the David Ford Universe Hitler would be Marconi to Darwin's
Maxwell. . .
German, looking for his Darwin Fish to wear to Church on Sunday
.

User: "AC"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 12:15:30 PM

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:15:22 +0000 (UTC),
mvillanu <mvillanu@hotmail.com> wrote:

dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0406300435.4503cee7@posting.google.com>...

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?

T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?

And what of European Christendom? Considering the views of men like Luther,
it's hard to see how one could condemn the likes of Darwin and yet not look
to the churches.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.

User: "Richard S. Crawford"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 12:46:55 PM

AC wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:15:22 +0000 (UTC),
mvillanu <mvillanu@hotmail.com> wrote:

dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0406300435.4503cee7@posting.google.com>...

What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?

T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?

And what of European Christendom? Considering the views of men like Luther,
it's hard to see how one could condemn the likes of Darwin and yet not look
to the churches.

Ah, the Creationist mindset still escapes you, I see.
Martin Luther, et. al., were not "true" Christians like "Murphy" or
Glenn or david ford. They were, therefore, atheists, and therefore
Darwinists, and therefore they contributed to the Holocaust.
It's wonky logic, but that's the best I can make of it.
--
Richard Crawford (http://www.mossroot.com)
AIM: Buffalo2K / Y!: rscrawford
Ask me about my opposable thumb!
"When you lose the power to laugh at yourself, you lose the power to
think straight." --Clarence Darrow
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?	06 Jul 2004 04:31:21 PM

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:15:30 +0000 (UTC), AC
<mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:15:22 +0000 (UTC),
mvilla