| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
30 Jun 2004 07:33:31 AM |
| Object: |
Darwin Contribute to Holocaust? |
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
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| User: "David Iain Greig" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
12 Jul 2004 09:21:37 PM |
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George <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
David Iain Greig <greig@ediacara.org> wrote in message news:<slrncf57m0.pcm.greig@darwin.ediacara.org>...
Frank Reichenbacher <me@nospam-for-me.net> wrote:
"Matt Giwer" <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:gZMHc.27400$uK.13401@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Frank Reichenbacher wrote:
***** NAZI.
No, no, he has to explain about those 'big glass windows' in the
gas chamber at Dachau that render it useless as a gas chamber, before
he goes away again.
He could start by mentioning his source.
There -were- glass port holes in the doors of gas chambers. Maybe in
the delusional state that nazism brings on that interprets into large
windows....
Not in Dachau. There was a peephole, but it was (i) not in a door, and
(ii) maybe 1 to 2" diameter.
--D.
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| User: "George" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
12 Jul 2004 03:24:34 PM |
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David Iain Greig <greig@ediacara.org> wrote in message news:<slrncf57m0.pcm.greig@darwin.ediacara.org>...
Frank Reichenbacher <me@nospam-for-me.net> wrote:
"Matt Giwer" <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:gZMHc.27400$uK.13401@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Frank Reichenbacher wrote:
***** NAZI.
No, no, he has to explain about those 'big glass windows' in the
gas chamber at Dachau that render it useless as a gas chamber, before
he goes away again.
He could start by mentioning his source.
There -were- glass port holes in the doors of gas chambers. Maybe in
the delusional state that nazism brings on that interprets into large
windows....
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| User: "Sami Przymszky" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 04:27:44 AM |
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Klaus Hellnick wrote:
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
The Nazis were not national.
They claimed the "race" - instead of a nation - as the basic principle.
Remeber e.g. the Quisling party in Norge.
The nazis wer not socialistic.
The were supported and inaugurated by the big high-finance clans of Germany
and the Capital owners (e.g. Alfred Krupp). They had been the party of the
capital and their program was extreme-bourgeois.
The term "national socialist" thus is camouflage.
Of course thousands of european socialists were killed in Concentration
Camps like Dachau, Bergen-Belsen and Boergermoor. (The latter was the place
where the victims created the song of the peat bog soldiers: "Die
Moorsoldaten")
S.
(f`up)
--
namaste: http://www.patzi-russit.cn the Source of Eternal Wisdom
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
09 Jul 2004 11:38:23 AM |
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Klaus Hellnick wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the
Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among
them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
It's easy enough to understand. The Socialists were a party opposed to
Nazism. Surely you're not naive enough to believe that the "National
Socalist German Workers Party" was actually a party for improving the lot
of the German workers by implementation of socialist policies, are you?
And before you say it; no, the Nazi party was not a left wing party simply
because it's name included the word "Socialist" as part of the expression
"National Socialist".
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
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| User: "Ken Shaw" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
09 Jul 2004 11:20:39 AM |
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Klaus Hellnick wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
Klaus
Then you know nothing of what went on inside occupied Europe during the
war. Nazis were socialists in much the way that East Germany was the
German Democratic Republic. Since true socialists were considered to be
little better than communists, the nazis had no trouble sending them to
death camps.
Ken
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| User: "Klaus Hellnick" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 12:48:36 AM |
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"Ken Shaw" <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message
news:KFzHc.76575$OB3.27043@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Klaus Hellnick wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and
others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among
them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist
Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
Klaus
Then you know nothing of what went on inside occupied Europe during the
war. Nazis were socialists in much the way that East Germany was the
German Democratic Republic. Since true socialists were considered to be
little better than communists, the nazis had no trouble sending them to
death camps.
Ken
Well, the NAZIs certainly were socialists. About the only way they differed
from communists was that they did not claim outright that all property
belonged to the government. They had massive welfare and government jobs
programs, abolished personal freedoms, directly controlled the schools and
media, though businesses were still free to to what they wanted, as long as
it was EXACTLY what the government told them to do.
Klaus
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 07:35:07 AM |
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Klaus Hellnick wrote:
"Ken Shaw" <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message
news:KFzHc.76575$OB3.27043@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Klaus Hellnick wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the
Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and
others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among
them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist
Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
Klaus
Then you know nothing of what went on inside occupied Europe during the
war. Nazis were socialists in much the way that East Germany was the
German Democratic Republic. Since true socialists were considered to be
little better than communists, the nazis had no trouble sending them to
death camps.
Ken
Well, the NAZIs certainly were socialists. About the only way they
differed from communists was that they did not claim outright that all
property belonged to the government.
Klaus, you do realise that worker control of the means of production is
*the* defining characteristic of the socialist philosophy, don't you? What
you've just said is equivalent to saying that Camp coffee is real coffee,
the only thing is that it's made with chicory rather than coffee-beans!
They had massive welfare and
government jobs programs, abolished personal freedoms, directly controlled
the schools and media, though businesses were still free to to what they
wanted, as long as it was EXACTLY what the government told them to do.
That is *not* socialism.
A more general point - many USAans, particularly of the right-wing
libertarian persuasion, have this misguided idea that any attempt by a
government to help the weaker in society is "socialism" - it is not. That
is simple civilisation.
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 03:15:42 AM |
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Klaus Hellnick wrote:
Well, the NAZIs certainly were socialists. About the only way they differed
from communists was that they did not claim outright that all property
belonged to the government. They had massive welfare and government jobs
programs, abolished personal freedoms, directly controlled the schools and
media, though businesses were still free to to what they wanted, as long as
it was EXACTLY what the government told them to do.
All in all not much different from western Europe and the US today.
It was not so much abolishing personal freedoms before the war
(everyone did during the war) as strongly encouraging participation in
government sponsored activities and associations. As they were mostly
held in local beer halls with subsidized beer it was not as though
they needed much arm-twisting to get participation.
--
If Bush does not capture Ossama bin Laden in October even
Democrats will be disappointed.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3206
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 07:34:52 AM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
Klaus Hellnick wrote:
Well, the NAZIs certainly were socialists. About the only way they
differed from communists was that they did not claim outright that all
property belonged to the government. They had massive welfare and
government jobs programs, abolished personal freedoms, directly
controlled the schools and media, though businesses were still free to to
what they wanted, as long as it was EXACTLY what the government told them
to do.
All in all not much different from western Europe and the US today.
Kainee, I see that your knowledge of current European affairs is on a par
with your knowledge of 1920s-40s Europe - somewhere between misinformed and
distorted, with general ignorance thrown in with a healthy twist of Nazi
sympathy.
As for the USA - from this side of the pond, the boot looks to be on the
other foot - the government does exactly what big oil, big pharma (and
farmer), big Mickey and big Micro tell them to do.
As for the claim that Nazis were socialists - you both need to learn what a
socialist actually is.
It was not so much abolishing personal freedoms before the war
(everyone did during the war) as strongly encouraging participation in
government sponsored activities and associations. As they were mostly
held in local beer halls with subsidized beer it was not as though
they needed much arm-twisting to get participation.
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 07:51:22 AM |
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Robin Levett <rnlevett@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in alt.atheism
As for the claim that Nazis were socialists - you both need to learn what a
socialist actually is.
What's your definition of it?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 09:45:25 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Robin Levett <rnlevett@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in alt.atheism
As for the claim that Nazis were socialists - you both need to learn what
a socialist actually is.
What's your definition of it?
See my other posts - but a major part of the definition of socialism is the
advocacy of worker control of the means of production.
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 09:58:42 PM |
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Robin Levett wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Klaus Hellnick wrote:
Well, the NAZIs certainly were socialists. About the only way they
differed from communists was that they did not claim outright that all
property belonged to the government. They had massive welfare and
government jobs programs, abolished personal freedoms, directly
controlled the schools and media, though businesses were still free to to
what they wanted, as long as it was EXACTLY what the government told them
to do.
All in all not much different from western Europe and the US today.
Kainee, I see that your knowledge of current European affairs is on a par
with your knowledge of 1920s-40s Europe - somewhere between misinformed and
distorted, with general ignorance thrown in with a healthy twist of Nazi
sympathy.
And the supposed errors are? Why not recite them?
As for the USA - from this side of the pond, the boot looks to be on the
other foot - the government does exactly what big oil, big pharma (and
farmer), big Mickey and big Micro tell them to do.
As for the claim that Nazis were socialists - you both need to learn what a
socialist actually is.
Why not tell me how socialists differed from international socialist
and a national socialist? Take all the screens you need?
--
If we had the wisdom to better the world with our military
power, the world would be begging us to do it.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3199
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 03:07:53 AM |
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Ken Shaw wrote:
Klaus Hellnick wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
Klaus
Then you know nothing of what went on inside occupied Europe during the
war. Nazis were socialists in much the way that East Germany was the
German Democratic Republic. Since true socialists were considered to be
little better than communists, the nazis had no trouble sending them to
death camps.
If they were _international_ socialists they were was we call
communists. The only good communist is a dead communist. Serves them
right. Nazis of course were National Socialists and did a fair job of
imitating the socialist methods of France as well as introducing
deficit spending to finance it. As with the US, they successfully
spent their way out of the Depression although much more quickly as
FDR's copies of Hilter's methods were largely struck down by the
Supreme Court.
--
Iraq embrace western values? We can't even get our
fundies to embrace the American value of freedom
from religion in our government.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3192
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 04:10:53 AM |
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On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:07:53 +0000 (UTC), Matt Giwer
<jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
The only good communist is a dead communist.
The only good Nazi is a killfiled Nazi.
<do the math>
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 10:01:17 PM |
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raven1 wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:07:53 +0000 (UTC), Matt Giwer
<jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
The only good communist is a dead communist.
The only good Nazi is a killfiled Nazi.
It will be of interest when you learn how to make a killfile work.
You make this post so often someone should show you how to do it.
--
The difference between conquering Poland and
conquering Iraq is Poland didn't have oil.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3211
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 02:24:23 AM |
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Klaus Hellnick wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
I find it difficult to believe they are never given credit for
getting rid of communists.
--
If Bush does not capture Ossama bin Laden in October even
Democrats will be disappointed.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3206
.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
09 Jul 2004 12:47:10 PM |
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On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:43:52 +0000 (UTC),
Klaus Hellnick <khellnicknospam@houston.rr.com> wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
The Nazi form of socialism bore little resemblance to the form of socialism
generally popular in Europe during the 1920s and early 1930s. Real
socialists were considered cohorts or sympathizers of the Communists, and
thus were enemies.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 03:24:18 AM |
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AC wrote:
The Nazi form of socialism bore little resemblance to the form of socialism
generally popular in Europe during the 1920s and early 1930s. Real
socialists were considered cohorts or sympathizers of the Communists, and
thus were enemies.
If that were true you could easily recite the differences between
German and other forms. Care to do so? Free health care, education,
fully paid vacations including travel and lodging, pensioned
retirement, subsidized housing and more. What do you call socialism if
not that?
--
Regardless of the article of faith among the ignorant the
charge a Christ killer towards Jews is almost totally
absent from Christian history, literature and rhetoric.
Amazing how such false claims become articles of faith.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3195
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| User: "Bob Casanova" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
09 Jul 2004 01:01:13 PM |
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On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:43:52 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by "Klaus Hellnick"
<khellnicknospam@houston.rr.com>:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
They did, but you have to understand that there was a
*world* of difference between National Socialism and plain
old garden-variety Socialism: The NSDAP believed that
individuals were expendable for the Good of the State (TM),
while ordinary Socialism held that the minority was
expendable for the Good of the Majority (TM), said majority
comprising the State. Also, while the NSDAP held that the
Will of the State (TM) was manifest in a single Fuehrer
("Leader"), ordinary Socialism held that a single Leader
manifested the Will of the People (TM), where The People
constituted the State. But both believed in their destiny to
convert the world to their own image.
As you can see, a *vast* difference in philosophy.
--
Bob C.
Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net
(without the spaces, of course)
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov
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| User: "Klaus Hellnick" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 12:52:48 AM |
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"Bob Casanova" <nospam@buzz.off> wrote in message
news:64nte0l26fe55irrhaf997pc0rumc4324m@4ax.com...
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:43:52 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by "Klaus Hellnick"
<khellnicknospam@houston.rr.com>:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0407080458.3efa7b7c@posting.google.com...
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message
news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the
Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
By [df]"the Holocaust," I mean what's described at
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The site makes a statement I have trouble believing:
" During the era of the Holocaust, the Nazis also targeted other groups
because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the
handicapped, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and
others).
Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds, among
them
Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals. "
The part I don't believe is the claim that the NAZIS (Nationist
Socialist)
party executed people for being "Socialists".
They did, but you have to understand that there was a
*world* of difference between National Socialism and plain
old garden-variety Socialism: The NSDAP believed that
individuals were expendable for the Good of the State (TM),
while ordinary Socialism held that the minority was
expendable for the Good of the Majority (TM), said majority
comprising the State. Also, while the NSDAP held that the
Will of the State (TM) was manifest in a single Fuehrer
("Leader"), ordinary Socialism held that a single Leader
manifested the Will of the People (TM), where The People
constituted the State. But both believed in their destiny to
convert the world to their own image.
As you can see, a *vast* difference in philosophy.
--
Bob C.
Yes, it is clear now.
Klaus
Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net
(without the spaces, of course)
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov
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| User: "keith" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
07 Jul 2004 11:48:50 AM |
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Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
David's question doesn't need a definition of "holocaust". He was
asking about the Holocaust, which is a proper name for the nazis
internment and murder of millions of jews, gypsies, communists etc.
during their reign of germany.
keith
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 01:59:35 AM |
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keith wrote:
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
David's question doesn't need a definition of "holocaust". He was
asking about the Holocaust,
The THEE itself? arbitrary capitalization and all?
which is a proper name for the nazis
internment and murder of millions of jews, gypsies, communists etc.
during their reign of germany.
Well communists ... the only good one is a dead one. First they came
for the communists and we never thanked them. You aren't off to a good
start when you include the most profligate murders the world has ever
known in the list.
However numbers are meaningless without substantiation by proper
methodology.
--
Israel is not a banana republic. It is not
a republic and yes it has no bananas.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3188
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| User: "keith" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
12 Jul 2004 06:19:15 PM |
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Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message news:<UxMHc.27287$uK.24272@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
keith wrote:
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
David's question doesn't need a definition of "holocaust". He was
asking about the Holocaust,
The THEE itself? arbitrary capitalization and all?
Your sarcasm is misplaced. The capitalization indicates the word is a
proper noun, referring to a specific historical event.
which is a proper name for the nazis
internment and murder of millions of jews, gypsies, communists etc.
during their reign of germany.
Well communists ... the only good one is a dead one. First they came
for the communists and we never thanked them. You aren't off to a good
start when you include the most profligate murders the world has ever
known in the list.
You are wrong that the communists the Nazi government murdered were
murderers themselves. They didn't have power over any government, they
were victims of a government. And your point is irrelevant anyway,
since whether or not they were justly killed doesn't change the fact
that there was no need for david to *define* (lower case) holocaust
when he asks questions about the (upper case) Holocaust.
However numbers are meaningless without substantiation by proper
methodology.
Here you implicitly claim the nazis didn't murder millions of the
above mentioned folks. There is substantial testimonial evidence that
they murdered many people, and one can reasonbly estimate that the
numbers were huge by extrapolation from that testimony. And even if
the numbers *were* smaller, that's a pretty weak defense of the nazis
(I suppose you aren't defending them though).
Keith
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| User: "John Thomas Grisham" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
07 Jul 2004 01:27:53 PM |
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Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message news:<GjOGc.20530$uK.13989@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
david ford wrote:
What is Darwin's contribution, if any, to the coming of the Holocaust?
T. H. Huxley's?
Haeckel's?
Nietzsche's?
I know the usual response is "I know a holocaust when I see one"
particularly by people who never saw one and cannot define it and are
pissed when someone calls their bluff demanding a definition.
But for the fun of it, What do you mean by holocaust so we can have a
guess as to where you are going with this question.
I believe the reference is to "The Holocaust".
On a planet called Earth (you may have heard of it) about 64 years
ago, an event called "World War Two" was being performed. A country
called "Deutchland" (a.k.a. Germany) had taken time and resources away
from conquering its neighbors and defending itself to round up and
murder over 6 million civilians. They considered this an important
thing to accomplish because for centuries these particular kinds of
people had been unpopular for various reasons. The person they called
"The Leader" (Der Fuhrer) was particularly dedicated to the wholesale
murder of these civilians... we don't really know why (Something about
some of them being wealthy, influencial, not completely supporting the
murdering of other people during wars and therefore inferior to people
who enjoyed killing each other during wars). Facilities were
constructed to receive, kill and cremate these civilians in an
assembly line manner. The discovery of these facilities and the
survivors at the end of World War Two was horrifying, indicating an
unrealized extreme of man's inhumanity to man, in what was considered
a technologically sophisticated modern society.
JTG 7/7/04
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| User: "Richard Cochran" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
09 Jul 2004 02:30:46 PM |
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(John Thomas Grisham) wrote in message news:<1e9d6178.0407071032.1731e497@posting.google.com>...
I believe the reference is to "The Holocaust".
On a planet called Earth (you may have heard of it) about 64 years
ago, an event called "World War Two" was being performed. A country
called "Deutchland" (a.k.a. Germany) had taken time and resources away
from conquering its neighbors and defending itself to round up and
murder over 6 million civilians.
I believe most historians would say the number was approximately
13 million civilians, approximately 6 million of whom were Jewish.
Of course the Holocaust had a disproportionate impact on the
Jewish people, but I think we shouldn't forget the 7 million
non-Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust. I don't know who
they all were, but perhaps some were people who chose to get
involved and speak out against the atrocities.
--Rich
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| User: "Ken Shaw" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
09 Jul 2004 02:50:00 PM |
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Richard Cochran wrote:
jgrisham@scu.k12.ca.us (John Thomas Grisham) wrote in message news:<1e9d6178.0407071032.1731e497@posting.google.com>...
I believe the reference is to "The Holocaust".
On a planet called Earth (you may have heard of it) about 64 years
ago, an event called "World War Two" was being performed. A country
called "Deutchland" (a.k.a. Germany) had taken time and resources away
from conquering its neighbors and defending itself to round up and
murder over 6 million civilians.
I believe most historians would say the number was approximately
13 million civilians, approximately 6 million of whom were Jewish.
Of course the Holocaust had a disproportionate impact on the
Jewish people, but I think we shouldn't forget the 7 million
non-Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust. I don't know who
they all were, but perhaps some were people who chose to get
involved and speak out against the atrocities.
Civilian deaths caused World War II in Europe is around 20 million. The
Holocaust was the systematic industrialized attempted extermination of
certain targeted group, primarily Jews but including Roma, homosexuals
and the mentally and physically handicapped, by the nazis. Approximately
6 million people died in the Holocaust.
It is inappropriate to include the casualties from the Battle of Britain
or the Allied bombing of German cities as part of the Holocaust.
Ken
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| User: "Richard Cochran" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 12:54:27 AM |
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Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<LJCHc.222511$Gx4.139940@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Richard Cochran wrote:
jgrisham@scu.k12.ca.us (John Thomas Grisham) wrote in message news:<1e9d6178.0407071032.1731e497@posting.google.com>...
I believe the reference is to "The Holocaust".
On a planet called Earth (you may have heard of it) about 64 years
ago, an event called "World War Two" was being performed. A country
called "Deutchland" (a.k.a. Germany) had taken time and resources away
from conquering its neighbors and defending itself to round up and
murder over 6 million civilians.
I believe most historians would say the number was approximately
13 million civilians, approximately 6 million of whom were Jewish.
Of course the Holocaust had a disproportionate impact on the
Jewish people, but I think we shouldn't forget the 7 million
non-Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust. I don't know who
they all were, but perhaps some were people who chose to get
involved and speak out against the atrocities.
Civilian deaths caused World War II in Europe is around 20 million. The
Holocaust was the systematic industrialized attempted extermination of
certain targeted group, primarily Jews but including Roma, homosexuals
and the mentally and physically handicapped, by the nazis. Approximately
6 million people died in the Holocaust.
It is inappropriate to include the casualties from the Battle of Britain
or the Allied bombing of German cities as part of the Holocaust.
I was referring ONLY to those 13 million murdered in Hitler's Nazi
death camps, not to those killed as a result of warfare. See,
for example, http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/HolocaustAppendices.html
European Jews 5,600,000 to 6,250,000
Soviet prisoners of war 3,000,000
Polish Catholics 3,000,000
Serbians 700,000 (Croat Ustasa persecution)
Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri 222,000 to 250,000
Germans (political, religious, and Resistance) 80,000
Germans (handicapped) 70,000
Homosexuals 12,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2500
A Google web search on "Holocaust" "13 million" "Death Camps" will
reveal many more sources. I believe it is appropriate to remember
the Jews killed in the Holocaust, but it is inappropriate to forget
the non-Jews who shared the same fate in the same death camps.
--Rich
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 01:52:35 AM |
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Richard Cochran wrote:
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<LJCHc.222511$Gx4.139940@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Richard Cochran wrote:
jgrisham@scu.k12.ca.us (John Thomas Grisham) wrote in message news:<1e9d6178.0407071032.1731e497@posting.google.com>...
I believe the reference is to "The Holocaust".
On a planet called Earth (you may have heard of it) about 64 years
ago, an event called "World War Two" was being performed. A country
called "Deutchland" (a.k.a. Germany) had taken time and resources away
from conquering its neighbors and defending itself to round up and
murder over 6 million civilians.
I believe most historians would say the number was approximately
13 million civilians, approximately 6 million of whom were Jewish.
Of course the Holocaust had a disproportionate impact on the
Jewish people, but I think we shouldn't forget the 7 million
non-Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust. I don't know who
they all were, but perhaps some were people who chose to get
involved and speak out against the atrocities.
Civilian deaths caused World War II in Europe is around 20 million. The
Holocaust was the systematic industrialized attempted extermination of
certain targeted group, primarily Jews but including Roma, homosexuals
and the mentally and physically handicapped, by the nazis. Approximately
6 million people died in the Holocaust.
It is inappropriate to include the casualties from the Battle of Britain
or the Allied bombing of German cities as part of the Holocaust.
I was referring ONLY to those 13 million murdered in Hitler's Nazi
death camps, not to those killed as a result of warfare. See,
for example, http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/HolocaustAppendices.html
Do you have any explanation for the total absense of any proper
source for these numbers?
European Jews 5,600,000 to 6,250,000
Soviet prisoners of war 3,000,000
Polish Catholics 3,000,000
Serbians 700,000 (Croat Ustasa persecution)
Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri 222,000 to 250,000
Germans (political, religious, and Resistance) 80,000
Germans (handicapped) 70,000
Homosexuals 12,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2500
A Google web search on "Holocaust" "13 million" "Death Camps" will
reveal many more sources. I believe it is appropriate to remember
the Jews killed in the Holocaust, but it is inappropriate to forget
the non-Jews who shared the same fate in the same death camps.
Repetition of the same numbers is not confirmation.
If you want to talk about Jews then you have to produce world wide
pre and post war census data to show the reduced number.
--
If Bush does not capture Ossama bin Laden in October even
Democrats will be disappointed.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3206
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
10 Jul 2004 01:45:51 AM |
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Ken Shaw wrote:
Richard Cochran wrote:
I believe most historians would say the number was approximately
13 million civilians, approximately 6 million of whom were Jewish.
Of course the Holocaust had a disproportionate impact on the
Jewish people, but I think we shouldn't forget the 7 million
non-Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust. I don't know who
they all were, but perhaps some were people who chose to get
involved and speak out against the atrocities.
Civilian deaths caused World War II in Europe is around 20 million.
Traceable deaths in Europe, yes. Unidentified bodies are unaccounted
for and therefore in the untraceable column. Russia was quite lax in
accounting for dead refugees in fact during the war routinely reported
them massacred by Germany. They did not even account for the refugees
conscripted into the Red Army as cannon fodder.
The
Holocaust was the systematic industrialized attempted extermination
Happen to know where this "industralized" comes from?
of
certain targeted group, primarily Jews but including Roma, homosexuals
and the mentally and physically handicapped, by the nazis.
If there is a truly impossible thing it is exterminating homosexuals.
Approximately 6 million people died in the Holocaust.
Serious people require physical evidence, and a computational basis
for all numbers presented. That number is a WAG unsupported by any
evidence.
It is inappropriate to include the casualties from the Battle of Britain
or the Allied bombing of German cities as part of the Holocaust.
Why inappropriate? The bombings were indiscriminate attacks upon
civilians in violation of the Hague convention on land warfare in
effect at the time.
--
The internet proved its worth when amateurs could debunk
Iraq weapons claims in hours while professionals
with billions of dollars could not. That is what
you have to believe to believe Bush.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3200
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| User: "R.Schenck" |
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| Title: Re: Define holocaust |
15 Jul 2004 08:18:56 AM |
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Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote in message news:<%kMHc.1562$KP6.113256@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
Ken Shaw wrote:
snip
It is inappropriate to include the casualties from the Battle of Britain
or the Allied bombing of German cities as part of the Holocaust.
Why inappropriate? The bombings were indiscriminate attacks upon
civilians in violation of the Hague convention on land warfare in
effect at the time.
There was no allied bombing of german cities in "wwII". Is there any
evidence for this? Don't expect us to beleive post war propaganda on
the subject. You simply cannot provide evidence for pre war
population structures and pos war population structures. Also, if
such bombings really did occur, then its the sheerest fantasy to think
that the Hague wouldn't have spoken out against it. Besides, most
cities at the time were made of concrete and cement, in other words
highly non-flammable materials, so to suggest that they could be
effected by 'fire-bombs' is just silly. If you had conducted proper
research you would find out that most building materials in use at the
time are also marked " inflammable". Furthermore, you will find that
those cities still exist today, infact, they existed almost
immediately after this supposed "world" war, which fantasists like you
claim nearly "destroyed" germany. How can any thinking person be
expected to beleive that a "destroyed" country (which, remarkably,
manages to exist today, inspite of its 'destruction')was able to
magically rebuild entire cities? One can find accounts of this 'fire
bombing' in many "sources", Kurt Vonnegut spoke about them, but he
also talks about people who have turned into sealions and time travel,
and is thus not a reputable source for any matter historical. You
can continue to propagate this 'german civilian death/atrocity'
fantasy, but I for one am no Dresden-hugger....
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