Religions > Atheism > Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
27 Aug 2007 06:01:24 PM |
| Object: |
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstrongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges neo-Darwinism
Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not a religious man
and no defender of any type of creationism, wrote a book Darwinian
Fairytales (Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury Series
in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the principal neo-Darwinian
concepts of kin selection and inclusive fitness simply do not conform
to the available evidence - certainly not for humans, and probably not
for many other life forms. This series of blogs briefly introduces the
topics covered in the 11 chapters of the book, with some other links,
as available. This is a brief comment on the Preface.
As the Acknowledgments briefly relate, David Stove died in 1994,
leaving the complete manuscript of Darwinian Fairytales, which was the
concern of the last three years of his life. His literary editor James
Franklin, of the School of Mathematics of the University of New South
Wales, rightly claims the honor of seeing the book through the press
(September 25, 1995). It is divided into eleven chapters, which he
calls Essays.
On reading the book, it is clear that Stove did not start out with
some strong desire to disprove evolution or Darwinian evolution.
Conceding that natural selection probably enables new species to come
into existence, he then says,
I do deny that natural selection is going on within our species now ,
and that it ever went on in our species, at any time of which anything
is known.
He waives the question of how our species came to be what it is now,
because he wants our species portrayed correctly in known historical
time, and "not to be imposed upon by the ludicrously false portrayals
which Darwinians give of the past, and even of the present, of our
species." In other words he has no time for the sham psychology of
"evolutionary psychology."
He admits that his only professional qualification is "40 odd years'
acquaintance with Darwinian literature, and a strong distaste for
ridiculous slanders on our species." But that may well be enough
qualification.
After all, anyone looking for nonsense, need look no further than
evolutionary psychology, the weakest link in the chain of
psychologies.
As I noted in an earlier post, evolutionary psychologists claim to be
able to explain altruism, crime, economics, emotions, infidelity,
laughter, law, literature,
love, marketing, obesity, religion, war, voting conservative why the
United States does not go to war against Canada (which has almost no
military presence),
sexual orientation, what women currently find attractive, why children
dislike vegetables, shoes, and so forth, by what cave guys* supposedly
did.
And this is hardly an exhaustive list. Indeed, no exhaustive list
would be possible, because anyone can interpret any current social
situation (a gruesome baby-killing, a demand to legalize polygamy, US-
Canada relations) in the light of what supposedly happened in
prehistoric times, and then make up a story about how the behavior
arose among cave guys shouting rot into the stalactites of their
caves ....
(*The vast majority of those cave guys were not our direct ancestors,
but, hey, why let a detail get in the way of a good story, let alone
tenure?)
I think Stove, wherever he is, should be laughing now. But steady on.
Hear his key points, starting with Chapter 1: "Darwinism's Dilemma" .
They are worth observing.
Toronto-based Canadian journalist Denyse O'Leary
(www.designorchance.com) is the author of the multiple award-winning
By Design or by Chance? (Augsburg Fortress 2004), an overview of the
intelligent design controversy. She was named CBA Canada's Recommended
Author of the Year in 2005 and is co-author, with Montreal
neuroscientist Mario Beauregard, of the forthcoming The Spiritual
Brain (Harper 2007).
.
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| User: "veritas" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 10:25:56 PM |
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On Aug 27, 6:01 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstrongglemgdarwinian...
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges neo-Darwinism
Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not a religious man
and no defender of any type of creationism, wrote a book Darwinian
Fairytales (Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury Series
in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the principal neo-Darwinian
concepts of kin selection and inclusive fitness simply do not conform
to the available evidence - certainly not for humans, and probably not
for many other life forms. This series of blogs briefly introduces the
topics covered in the 11 chapters of the book, with some other links,
as available. This is a brief comment on the Preface.
As the Acknowledgments briefly relate, David Stove died in 1994,
leaving the complete manuscript of Darwinian Fairytales, which was the
concern of the last three years of his life. His literary editor James
Franklin, of the School of Mathematics of the University of New South
Wales, rightly claims the honor of seeing the book through the press
(September 25, 1995). It is divided into eleven chapters, which he
calls Essays.
On reading the book, it is clear that Stove did not start out with
some strong desire to disprove evolution or Darwinian evolution.
Conceding that natural selection probably enables new species to come
into existence, he then says,
I do deny that natural selection is going on within our species now ,
and that it ever went on in our species, at any time of which anything
is known.
He waives the question of how our species came to be what it is now,
because he wants our species portrayed correctly in known historical
time, and "not to be imposed upon by the ludicrously false portrayals
which Darwinians give of the past, and even of the present, of our
species." In other words he has no time for the sham psychology of
"evolutionary psychology."
He admits that his only professional qualification is "40 odd years'
acquaintance with Darwinian literature, and a strong distaste for
ridiculous slanders on our species." But that may well be enough
qualification.
After all, anyone looking for nonsense, need look no further than
evolutionary psychology, the weakest link in the chain of
psychologies.
As I noted in an earlier post, evolutionary psychologists claim to be
able to explain altruism, crime, economics, emotions, infidelity,
laughter, law, literature,
love, marketing, obesity, religion, war, voting conservative why the
United States does not go to war against Canada (which has almost no
military presence),
sexual orientation, what women currently find attractive, why children
dislike vegetables, shoes, and so forth, by what cave guys* supposedly
did.
And this is hardly an exhaustive list. Indeed, no exhaustive list
would be possible, because anyone can interpret any current social
situation (a gruesome baby-killing, a demand to legalize polygamy, US-
Canada relations) in the light of what supposedly happened in
prehistoric times, and then make up a story about how the behavior
arose among cave guys shouting rot into the stalactites of their
caves ....
(*The vast majority of those cave guys were not our direct ancestors,
but, hey, why let a detail get in the way of a good story, let alone
tenure?)
I think Stove, wherever he is, should be laughing now. But steady on.
Hear his key points, starting with Chapter 1: "Darwinism's Dilemma" .
They are worth observing.
Toronto-based Canadian journalist Denyse O'Leary
(www.designorchance.com) is the author of the multiple award-winning
By Design or by Chance? (Augsburg Fortress 2004), an overview of the
intelligent design controversy. She was named CBA Canada's Recommended
Author of the Year in 2005 and is co-author, with Montreal
neuroscientist Mario Beauregard, of the forthcoming The Spiritual
Brain (Harper 2007).
Denyse, if you would go to www.admin:cam.ac.uk/news which is the
news archives for Cambridge Univerisity pull up May 2007 and see the
final report on the world wide DNA studies by Cambridge University,
the studies were headed by Geneticist Dr. Peter Forster and co-
authored by Dr. Toomas Kivisild, Cambridge dept. of Anthropology.
Their conclusion states that we all, every living person on this
planet decended from a small group (Other sources say 10,000 adult DNA
combinations.) that came out of Africa about 55-50,000 years ago as an
ice age was ending. This ice age, aproximiately 19,000 years long was
helped along by the super eruption of Mt. Toba 74,000 years ago. Mt.
Tambora which erupted in 1815 spewed 100 cubic miles of debris into
the atmosphere. You are aware I am sure of the damage done to the
human population, including the writing of "Frankenstein". 1816 was
the "year without summer.". Mt. Toba spewed 2800 cubic miles of
debris into the atmosphere. For a species that wer hunter-gatherers,
you can imagine the effect of five or six years of winter around the
world. The only known species known to have survived where a few
thousand Neantherthals in Europe. But at their peak, there were
probably never more than 35,000 alive at on time at any point.
The sticking point was always the Austrailian DNA, which was finally
solved. We did not interbreed with any of the species similar to our
own. So tools in Asia have been found above the ash, but if just a
few Erectus, or Hablus survived, it would not have been for long. A
minumum of 500 different DNA combinations are required (I'm not
positive on this as I have been told by a geneticists that five
thousand is a more reliable number as the Amish are finding out to
their dismay.) But that's another story. The point is that we all
came from one small group that in 47,000 years dominated this world.
Something the other species could not come close to matching. We are
not like them. We send men to the moon. We use technology, we are
much more aggressive, violent. How do we know this? By the Giant
Cave Bear War. It took us 20,000 years to make the GCB no more.
Saber-Tooths? A thousand years when we got to America. The other
species except the Neanderthal could not even go north into the
mountians because of the Bears. The last known battle was in the
Balkens about 10,000 B.C.E. Giant Cave Bears lived in clans from four
to eighteen. Eighteen GCB skeletons were found, four modern humans.
They estimated that about sixty humans took part in the attack. What
other species on this world kills it's own in mass quanities. Someone
once told me ants do. I told him to show me their machine guns and
hand grernades. I say all this to show we are not the species that we
are always connected with. They were little better than animals.
They had stone tools, and made the same tools for a hundred thousand
years without changing them. We have found anicent modern humans
flint tool factory remains in France where we mass produced them for
trade. We changed them like we change out clothing styles. I say all
this and the DNA results finally starting to come back in say somehow
we were different. But Darwin was not wrong.
If we all decended from this group of 10,000 adults, than evolution
is right in front of us. We have different colors, shapes, sizes, but
they were all sculptured by the climate and suvival conditions. An
Eskimo has fat on his hands, though you are from Canada, I'm betting
you do not. The reason, an Eskimo that can keep his hands in freezing
water longer is a better bet to survive. The color of your decendents
skin will change in about 20,000 years dictated by where you live on
this planet. So Darwin does have a theory we see working everyday,
even with humans. But the humans popped up with no explanation for
being so hugely superior to anything this planet has ever seen. My
conclusion being that though Darwin was to an extent right, he was
wrong about the humans and we will continue our work as to where
exactly in Africa we came out of, and why we are so different from all
the other species. We are the only sentient being ever to be here. I
mean that in that we realize the Earth revolves around the sun, and
why, we understand that we are on a planet in a solar system and that
solar system is revolving around a black hold (perhaps) in a galaxy.
Ken
--
"Truth does not give a damn what we perceive. We survive or perish
according to our ability to discern the truth correctly and act upon
it." - Ken www.veritasnovel.com
.
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| User: "Tom Peel" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 03:29:34 PM |
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veritas schrieb:
On Aug 27, 6:01 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com>
wrote:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstrongglemgdarwinian...
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges neo-Darwinism
Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not a religious man
and no defender of any type of creationism, wrote a book Darwinian
Fairytales (Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury Series
in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the principal neo-Darwinian
concepts of kin selection and inclusive fitness simply do not conform
to the available evidence - certainly not for humans, and probably not
for many other life forms. This series of blogs briefly introduces the
topics covered in the 11 chapters of the book, with some other links,
as available. This is a brief comment on the Preface.
As the Acknowledgments briefly relate, David Stove died in 1994,
leaving the complete manuscript of Darwinian Fairytales, which was the
concern of the last three years of his life. His literary editor James
Franklin, of the School of Mathematics of the University of New South
Wales, rightly claims the honor of seeing the book through the press
(September 25, 1995). It is divided into eleven chapters, which he
calls Essays.
On reading the book, it is clear that Stove did not start out with
some strong desire to disprove evolution or Darwinian evolution.
Conceding that natural selection probably enables new species to come
into existence, he then says,
I do deny that natural selection is going on within our species now ,
and that it ever went on in our species, at any time of which anything
is known.
He waives the question of how our species came to be what it is now,
because he wants our species portrayed correctly in known historical
time, and "not to be imposed upon by the ludicrously false portrayals
which Darwinians give of the past, and even of the present, of our
species." In other words he has no time for the sham psychology of
"evolutionary psychology."
He admits that his only professional qualification is "40 odd years'
acquaintance with Darwinian literature, and a strong distaste for
ridiculous slanders on our species." But that may well be enough
qualification.
After all, anyone looking for nonsense, need look no further than
evolutionary psychology, the weakest link in the chain of
psychologies.
As I noted in an earlier post, evolutionary psychologists claim to be
able to explain altruism, crime, economics, emotions, infidelity,
laughter, law, literature,
love, marketing, obesity, religion, war, voting conservative why the
United States does not go to war against Canada (which has almost no
military presence),
sexual orientation, what women currently find attractive, why children
dislike vegetables, shoes, and so forth, by what cave guys* supposedly
did.
And this is hardly an exhaustive list. Indeed, no exhaustive list
would be possible, because anyone can interpret any current social
situation (a gruesome baby-killing, a demand to legalize polygamy, US-
Canada relations) in the light of what supposedly happened in
prehistoric times, and then make up a story about how the behavior
arose among cave guys shouting rot into the stalactites of their
caves ....
(*The vast majority of those cave guys were not our direct ancestors,
but, hey, why let a detail get in the way of a good story, let alone
tenure?)
I think Stove, wherever he is, should be laughing now. But steady on.
Hear his key points, starting with Chapter 1: "Darwinism's Dilemma" .
They are worth observing.
Toronto-based Canadian journalist Denyse O'Leary
(www.designorchance.com) is the author of the multiple award-winning
By Design or by Chance? (Augsburg Fortress 2004), an overview of the
intelligent design controversy. She was named CBA Canada's Recommended
Author of the Year in 2005 and is co-author, with Montreal
neuroscientist Mario Beauregard, of the forthcoming The Spiritual
Brain (Harper 2007).
Denyse, if you would go to www.admin:cam.ac.uk/news which is the
news archives for Cambridge Univerisity pull up May 2007 and see the
final report on the world wide DNA studies by Cambridge University,
the studies were headed by Geneticist Dr. Peter Forster and co-
authored by Dr. Toomas Kivisild, Cambridge dept. of Anthropology.
I think you mean this one: http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2007050801
Their conclusion states that we all, every living person on this
planet decended from a small group (Other sources say 10,000 adult DNA
combinations.) that came out of Africa about 55-50,000 years ago as an
ice age was ending. This ice age, aproximiately 19,000 years long was
helped along by the super eruption of Mt. Toba 74,000 years ago. Mt.
Tambora which erupted in 1815 spewed 100 cubic miles of debris into
the atmosphere. You are aware I am sure of the damage done to the
human population, including the writing of "Frankenstein". 1816 was
the "year without summer.". Mt. Toba spewed 2800 cubic miles of
debris into the atmosphere. For a species that wer hunter-gatherers,
you can imagine the effect of five or six years of winter around the
world. The only known species known to have survived where a few
thousand Neantherthals in Europe. But at their peak, there were
probably never more than 35,000 alive at on time at any point.
The sticking point was always the Austrailian DNA, which was finally
solved. We did not interbreed with any of the species similar to our
own. So tools in Asia have been found above the ash, but if just a
few Erectus, or Hablus survived, it would not have been for long. A
minumum of 500 different DNA combinations are required (I'm not
positive on this as I have been told by a geneticists that five
thousand is a more reliable number as the Amish are finding out to
their dismay.) But that's another story. The point is that we all
came from one small group that in 47,000 years dominated this world.
Something the other species could not come close to matching. We are
not like them. We send men to the moon. We use technology, we are
much more aggressive, violent. How do we know this? By the Giant
Cave Bear War. It took us 20,000 years to make the GCB no more.
Saber-Tooths? A thousand years when we got to America. The other
species except the Neanderthal could not even go north into the
mountians because of the Bears. The last known battle was in the
Balkens about 10,000 B.C.E. Giant Cave Bears lived in clans from four
to eighteen. Eighteen GCB skeletons were found, four modern humans.
They estimated that about sixty humans took part in the attack. What
other species on this world kills it's own in mass quanities. Someone
once told me ants do. I told him to show me their machine guns and
hand grernades. I say all this to show we are not the species that we
are always connected with. They were little better than animals.
They had stone tools, and made the same tools for a hundred thousand
years without changing them. We have found anicent modern humans
flint tool factory remains in France where we mass produced them for
trade. We changed them like we change out clothing styles. I say all
this and the DNA results finally starting to come back in say somehow
we were different. But Darwin was not wrong.
If we all decended from this group of 10,000 adults, than evolution
is right in front of us. We have different colors, shapes, sizes, but
they were all sculptured by the climate and suvival conditions. An
Eskimo has fat on his hands, though you are from Canada, I'm betting
you do not. The reason, an Eskimo that can keep his hands in freezing
water longer is a better bet to survive. The color of your decendents
skin will change in about 20,000 years dictated by where you live on
this planet. So Darwin does have a theory we see working everyday,
even with humans. But the humans popped up with no explanation for
being so hugely superior to anything this planet has ever seen. My
conclusion being that though Darwin was to an extent right, he was
wrong about the humans and we will continue our work as to where
exactly in Africa we came out of, and why we are so different from all
the other species. We are the only sentient being ever to be here. I
mean that in that we realize the Earth revolves around the sun, and
why, we understand that we are on a planet in a solar system and that
solar system is revolving around a black hold (perhaps) in a galaxy.
Ken
--
"Truth does not give a damn what we perceive. We survive or perish
according to our ability to discern the truth correctly and act upon
it." - Ken www.veritasnovel.com
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 03:39:48 PM |
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On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 16:01:24 -0700, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@mailcan.com> wrote:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstrongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
From the ARN homepage:
"The ID Update is a weblog containing news items (In the News),
commentary (The ID Report), web links, and articles of interest to the
Intelligent Design community."
A very reliable source. NOT!
.
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| User: "Jon Schild" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
27 Aug 2007 07:53:06 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstrongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges neo-Darwinism
Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not a religious man
and no defender of any type of creationism, wrote a book Darwinian
Fairytales (Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury Series
in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the principal neo-Darwinian
concepts of kin selection and inclusive fitness simply do not conform
to the available evidence - certainly not for humans, and probably not
for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but have been proposed
since that time.
On reading the book, it is clear that Stove did not start out with
some strong desire to disprove evolution or Darwinian evolution.
Conceding that natural selection probably enables new species to come
into existence, he then says,
I do deny that natural selection is going on within our species now ,
and that it ever went on in our species, at any time of which anything
is known.
So he agrees with Darwin's natural selection, but objects to two new
ideas. And he was a philosopher, not a biologist. Hardly a ringing
rejection of any scientific principle.
Once again, the subject is extremely misleading at best.
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 04:43:21 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstr
ongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges
neo-Darwinism Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not
a religious man and no defender of any type of
creationism, wrote a book Darwinian Fairytales
(Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury
Series in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the
principal neo-Darwinian concepts of kin selection
and inclusive fitness simply do not conform to the
available evidence - certainly not for humans, and
probably not for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but
have been proposed since that time.
The available evidence clearly shows that humans look
after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if they are
bad, but I will do good to close kin even if they do bad
to me - exactly as Darwin predicted - the available
evidence clearly shows that we behave as predicted from
kin selection and inclusive fitness.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 08:25:14 AM |
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James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:bfr7d3ha9q03oalfuggma5mf8o1n1cs360@4ax.com...
Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstr
ongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges
neo-Darwinism Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not
a religious man and no defender of any type of
creationism, wrote a book Darwinian Fairytales
(Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury
Series in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the
principal neo-Darwinian concepts of kin selection
and inclusive fitness simply do not conform to the
available evidence - certainly not for humans, and
probably not for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but
have been proposed since that time.
The available evidence clearly shows that humans look
after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if they are
bad, but I will do good to close kin even if they do bad
to me - exactly as Darwin predicted - the available
evidence clearly shows that we behave as predicted from
kin selection and inclusive fitness.
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son, daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends' rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
Thus observation would indicate that your argument that the opposite it is
exactly as Darwin predicted is in error, for it does not occur in all cases,
and probably not even in a majority of cases.
As such, it cannot be shown to be the operating mechanism in such kin
relationships, you will need to look elsewhere for your universally applied
rule, James.
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 04:54:53 AM |
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James A. Donald
The available evidence clearly shows that humans
look after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if
they are bad, but I will do good to close kin even
if they do bad to me - exactly as Darwin predicted -
the available evidence clearly shows that we behave
as predicted from kin selection and inclusive
fitness.
brique:
The available evidence clearly shows that father has
killed son, daughter, wife, that sons have killed
their father and/or mother, that brothers have slain
their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have
slain fathers,
But that is not the way to bet.
You guys are always trying to demonize the family, but
the family is where it is safe. Compare the assault
statistics for single vs married women.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 06:40:21 AM |
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|
James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ecgad31rmqrbphb53fbgbc6d8svqjj96r1@4ax.com...
James A. Donald
The available evidence clearly shows that humans
look after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if
they are bad, but I will do good to close kin even
if they do bad to me - exactly as Darwin predicted -
the available evidence clearly shows that we behave
as predicted from kin selection and inclusive
fitness.
brique:
The available evidence clearly shows that father has
killed son, daughter, wife, that sons have killed
their father and/or mother, that brothers have slain
their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have
slain fathers,
But that is not the way to bet.
Irrelevant, the cases I refer to occur, occur frequently and occur across
social classes, ethnic origins, religous creeds, age groups and residential
localities.
I note you edit out the rest fo the paragraph (how original of you) and
ignore the other cases of unkindness to kin I presented. So lets put them
back:
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son, daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends' rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
You guys are always trying to demonize the family, but
the family is where it is safe. Compare the assault
statistics for single vs married women.
Assault by whom? I would agree the statistics for spousal abuse of single
women is remarkably low, in much the same way that orphans are rarely
murdered by their parents.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Virgil" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 01:00:28 PM |
|
|
In article <1188387768.40235.0@iris.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
If there were no instincts for mammalian parents to protect their
children, in humans as well as in other mammalian species, those species
that lacked them would long since have dies out, as mammalian children
are not born self sufficient.
That such instincts fail on occasion is hardly evidence that they do not
exist.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 06:17:55 PM |
|
|
Virgil <virgil@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:virgil-8C9F09.12002829082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <1188387768.40235.0@iris.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
If there were no instincts for mammalian parents to protect their
children, in humans as well as in other mammalian species, those species
that lacked them would long since have dies out, as mammalian children
are not born self sufficient.
That such instincts fail on occasion is hardly evidence that they do not
exist.
I have not said they do not exist. I have questioned the claim that they are
predictable under Darwins Theories. This claim presupposes that an outcome
is predictable, namely, that it will occur because the Theory states that it
will. If it does not occur, as I have shown,, then it is not predictable at
all, at best it can only suggest that it _may_ occur.
There are many societies which have survived for long periods that display
behaviour that does not accord with 'kin preference', as indeed there are
societies that survive displaying high levels of 'kin preference'. All that
can tell us is that such preferences are not a key component of group
survival and there must be other factors at work, which may or may not be
acting in combination with 'kin preference' to explain that groups long-term
survival. At best we can say that it may be one of a range of 'strategies' a
group may use to enable its long -term survival. But that does not require
biological evolution nor prove it to be the mechanism driving the group
choice of strategy.
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Graeme" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
30 Aug 2007 12:11:18 PM |
|
|
On Aug 29, 7:17 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Virgil <vir...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:virgil-8C9F09.12002829082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <1188387768.4023...@iris.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
If there were no instincts for mammalian parents to protect their
children, in humans as well as in other mammalian species, those species
that lacked them would long since have dies out, as mammalian children
are not born self sufficient.
That such instincts fail on occasion is hardly evidence that they do not
exist.
I have not said they do not exist. I have questioned the claim that they are
predictable under Darwins Theories. This claim presupposes that an outcome
is predictable, namely, that it will occur because the Theory states that it
will. If it does not occur, as I have shown,, then it is not predictable at
all, at best it can only suggest that it _may_ occur.
There are many societies which have survived for long periods that display
behaviour that does not accord with 'kin preference', as indeed there are
societies that survive displaying high levels of 'kin preference'. All that
can tell us is that such preferences are not a key component of group
survival and there must be other factors at work, which may or may not be
acting in combination with 'kin preference' to explain that groups long-term
survival. At best we can say that it may be one of a range of 'strategies' a
group may use to enable its long -term survival. But that does not require
biological evolution nor prove it to be the mechanism driving the group
choice of strategy.
This is complete nonsense. You don't understand evolution or how to
evaluate evidence or possibly how to reason logically.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
31 Aug 2007 09:12:02 AM |
|
|
John Graeme <jdgraeme@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1188493878.036650.219360@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 29, 7:17 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Virgil <vir...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:virgil-8C9F09.12002829082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <1188387768.4023...@iris.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their
kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
If there were no instincts for mammalian parents to protect their
children, in humans as well as in other mammalian species, those
species
that lacked them would long since have dies out, as mammalian children
are not born self sufficient.
That such instincts fail on occasion is hardly evidence that they do
not
exist.
I have not said they do not exist. I have questioned the claim that they
are
predictable under Darwins Theories. This claim presupposes that an
outcome
is predictable, namely, that it will occur because the Theory states
that it
will. If it does not occur, as I have shown,, then it is not predictable
at
all, at best it can only suggest that it _may_ occur.
There are many societies which have survived for long periods that
display
behaviour that does not accord with 'kin preference', as indeed there
are
societies that survive displaying high levels of 'kin preference'. All
that
can tell us is that such preferences are not a key component of group
survival and there must be other factors at work, which may or may not
be
acting in combination with 'kin preference' to explain that groups
long-term
survival. At best we can say that it may be one of a range of
'strategies' a
group may use to enable its long -term survival. But that does not
require
biological evolution nor prove it to be the mechanism driving the
group
choice of strategy.
This is complete nonsense. You don't understand evolution or how to
evaluate evidence or possibly how to reason logically.
I see, so if it is claimed that x will occur because process Y predicts it
will..... then it doesn't, what does logic tell us about this claim?
.
|
|
|
| User: "veritas" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
02 Sep 2007 08:52:31 PM |
|
|
On Aug 31, 9:12 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
John Graeme <jdgra...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1188493878.036650.219360@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 29, 7:17 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Virgil <vir...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:virgil-8C9F09.12002829082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <1188387768.4023...@iris.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their
kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
If there were no instincts for mammalian parents to protect their
children, in humans as well as in other mammalian species, those
species
that lacked them would long since have dies out, as mammalian children
are not born self sufficient.
That such instincts fail on occasion is hardly evidence that they do
not
exist.
I have not said they do not exist. I have questioned the claim that they
are
predictable under Darwins Theories. This claim presupposes that an
outcome
is predictable, namely, that it will occur because the Theory states
that it
will. If it does not occur, as I have shown,, then it is not predictable
at
all, at best it can only suggest that it _may_ occur.
There are many societies which have survived for long periods that
display
behaviour that does not accord with 'kin preference', as indeed there
are
societies that survive displaying high levels of 'kin preference'. All
that
can tell us is that such preferences are not a key component of group
survival and there must be other factors at work, which may or may not
be
acting in combination with 'kin preference' to explain that groups
long-term
survival. At best we can say that it may be one of a range of
'strategies' a
group may use to enable its long -term survival. But that does not
require
biological evolution nor prove it to be the mechanism driving the
group
choice of strategy.
This is complete nonsense. You don't understand evolution or how to
evaluate evidence or possibly how to reason logically.
I see, so if it is claimed that x will occur because process Y predicts it
will..... then it doesn't, what does logic tell us about this claim?
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
brique, I don't know if you know it or not but I did not write the
Aug. 31 post of veritas. You are also being quoted on posts on here
you did not write either as they make no sense. I have reported mine,
and you should look for yours as well. Ken
.
|
|
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| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
03 Sep 2007 07:24:52 AM |
|
|
veritas <khogantwo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188784351.610768.16950@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 31, 9:12 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
John Graeme <jdgra...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1188493878.036650.219360@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 29, 7:17 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Virgil <vir...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:virgil-8C9F09.12002829082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <1188387768.4023...@iris.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their
kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
If there were no instincts for mammalian parents to protect their
children, in humans as well as in other mammalian species, those
species
that lacked them would long since have dies out, as mammalian
children
are not born self sufficient.
That such instincts fail on occasion is hardly evidence that they
do
not
exist.
I have not said they do not exist. I have questioned the claim that
they
are
predictable under Darwins Theories. This claim presupposes that an
outcome
is predictable, namely, that it will occur because the Theory states
that it
will. If it does not occur, as I have shown,, then it is not
predictable
at
all, at best it can only suggest that it _may_ occur.
There are many societies which have survived for long periods that
display
behaviour that does not accord with 'kin preference', as indeed
there
are
societies that survive displaying high levels of 'kin preference'.
All
that
can tell us is that such preferences are not a key component of
group
survival and there must be other factors at work, which may or may
not
be
acting in combination with 'kin preference' to explain that groups
long-term
survival. At best we can say that it may be one of a range of
'strategies' a
group may use to enable its long -term survival. But that does not
require
biological evolution nor prove it to be the mechanism driving the
group
choice of strategy.
This is complete nonsense. You don't understand evolution or how to
evaluate evidence or possibly how to reason logically.
I see, so if it is claimed that x will occur because process Y predicts
it
will..... then it doesn't, what does logic tell us about this claim?
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
brique, I don't know if you know it or not but I did not write the
Aug. 31 post of veritas. You are also being quoted on posts on here
you did not write either as they make no sense. I have reported mine,
and you should look for yours as well. Ken
There are some who think debate means editing a post to make it appear other
than it was written, then responding to that. Not much to be done about, its
just Chinatown.....
.
|
|
|
| User: "veritas" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
03 Sep 2007 11:12:05 PM |
|
|
On Sep 3, 7:24 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
veritas <khogan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188784351.610768.16950@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 31, 9:12 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
John Graeme <jdgra...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1188493878.036650.219360@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 29, 7:17 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Virgil <vir...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:virgil-8C9F09.12002829082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <1188387768.4023...@iris.uk.clara.net>,
"brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their
kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
If there were no instincts for mammalian parents to protect their
children, in humans as well as in other mammalian species, those
species
that lacked them would long since have dies out, as mammalian
children
are not born self sufficient.
That such instincts fail on occasion is hardly evidence that they
do
not
exist.
I have not said they do not exist. I have questioned the claim that
they
are
predictable under Darwins Theories. This claim presupposes that an
outcome
is predictable, namely, that it will occur because the Theory states
that it
will. If it does not occur, as I have shown,, then it is not
predictable
at
all, at best it can only suggest that it _may_ occur.
There are many societies which have survived for long periods that
display
behaviour that does not accord with 'kin preference', as indeed
there
are
societies that survive displaying high levels of 'kin preference'.
All
that
can tell us is that such preferences are not a key component of
group
survival and there must be other factors at work, which may or may
not
be
acting in combination with 'kin preference' to explain that groups
long-term
survival. At best we can say that it may be one of a range of
'strategies' a
group may use to enable its long -term survival. But that does not
require
biological evolution nor prove it to be the mechanism driving the
group
choice of strategy.
This is complete nonsense. You don't understand evolution or how to
evaluate evidence or possibly how to reason logically.
I see, so if it is claimed that x will occur because process Y predicts
it
will..... then it doesn't, what does logic tell us about this claim?
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
brique, I don't know if you know it or not but I did not write the
Aug. 31 post of veritas. You are also being quoted on posts on here
you did not write either as they make no sense. I have reported mine,
and you should look for yours as well. Ken
There are some who think debate means editing a post to make it appear other
than it was written, then responding to that. Not much to be done about, its
just Chinatown.....
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Oh, now I see what is what. Sometimes people are just not very nice.
Regards, Ken
.
|
|
|
|
|
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|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 09:23:23 AM |
|
|
On Aug 29, 7:40 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in messagenews:ecgad31rmqrbphb53fbgbc6d8svqjj96r1@4ax.com...
James A. Donald
The available evidence clearly shows that humans
look after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if
they are bad, but I will do good to close kin even
if they do bad to me - exactly as Darwin predicted -
the available evidence clearly shows that we behave
as predicted from kin selection and inclusive
fitness.
brique:
The available evidence clearly shows that father has
killed son, daughter, wife, that sons have killed
their father and/or mother, that brothers have slain
their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have
slain fathers,
But that is not the way to bet.
Irrelevant,
Actually, it explains why your own comments are irrelevant.
the cases I refer to occur, occur frequently and occur across
social classes, ethnic origins, religous creeds, age groups and residential
localities.
I note you edit out the rest fo the paragraph (how original of you) and
ignore the other cases of unkindness to kin I presented. So lets put them
back:
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son, daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends' rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
Tainted? Seems you don't know what "tainted evidence" actually means.
Look it up.
You guys are always trying to demonize the family, but
the family is where it is safe. Compare the assault
statistics for single vs married women.
Assault by whom? I would agree the statistics for spousal abuse of single
women is remarkably low, in much the same way that orphans are rarely
murdered by their parents.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 06:00:53 PM |
|
|
<constantinopoli@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188397403.482221.307640@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 29, 7:40 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in
messagenews:ecgad31rmqrbphb53fbgbc6d8svqjj96r1@4ax.com...
James A. Donald
The available evidence clearly shows that humans
look after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if
they are bad, but I will do good to close kin even
if they do bad to me - exactly as Darwin predicted -
the available evidence clearly shows that we behave
as predicted from kin selection and inclusive
fitness.
brique:
The available evidence clearly shows that father has
killed son, daughter, wife, that sons have killed
their father and/or mother, that brothers have slain
their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have
slain fathers,
But that is not the way to bet.
Irrelevant,
Actually, it explains why your own comments are irrelevant.
As are you, Constance, unless the subject is *****-licking synchophancy.....
the cases I refer to occur, occur frequently and occur across
social classes, ethnic origins, religous creeds, age groups and
residential
localities.
I note you edit out the rest fo the paragraph (how original of you) and
ignore the other cases of unkindness to kin I presented. So lets put
them
back:
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son,
daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers
have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain
fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a
rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal
countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends'
rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in
which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of
errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to
kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
So your evidence that shows how humans 'clearly look after their kin' is
somewhat tainted, is it not?
Tainted? Seems you don't know what "tainted evidence" actually means.
Look it up.
You guys are always trying to demonize the family, but
the family is where it is safe. Compare the assault
statistics for single vs married women.
Assault by whom? I would agree the statistics for spousal abuse of
single
women is remarkably low, in much the same way that orphans are rarely
murdered by their parents.
.
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|
|
|
|
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|
| User: "Dr. Zarkov" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 12:44:21 PM |
|
|
brique wrote:
James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote
Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstr
ongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges
neo-Darwinism Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not
a religious man and no defender of any type of
creationism, wrote a book Darwinian Fairytales
(Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury
Series in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the
principal neo-Darwinian concepts of kin selection
and inclusive fitness simply do not conform to the
available evidence - certainly not for humans, and
probably not for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but
have been proposed since that time.
The available evidence clearly shows that humans look
after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if they are
bad, but I will do good to close kin even if they do bad
to me - exactly as Darwin predicted - the available
evidence clearly shows that we behave as predicted from
kin selection and inclusive fitness.
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son, daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends' rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
Thus observation would indicate that your argument that the opposite it is
exactly as Darwin predicted is in error, for it does not occur in all cases,
and probably not even in a majority of cases.
As such, it cannot be shown to be the operating mechanism in such kin
relationships, you will need to look elsewhere for your universally applied
rule, James.
Saying that there are cases of fighting among closely related
individuals does not prove anything. You can find lots of "cases" of
many things, including suicide. More careful observations and
experiments have supported the hypothesis that individuals tend to show
concern for others based in large part on the closeness of genetic
identity. But remember that humans evolved in relatively small social
groups, in which members shared many of the same genes. There was thus
evolutionary pressure to show concern for others in the group.
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 08:37:37 PM |
|
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"Dr. Zarkov"
Saying that there are cases of fighting among closely
related individuals does not prove anything. You can
find lots of "cases" of many things, including
suicide. More careful observations and experiments
have supported the hypothesis that individuals tend to
show concern for others based in large part on the
closeness of genetic identity. But remember that
humans evolved in relatively small social groups, in
which members shared many of the same genes. There
was thus evolutionary pressure to show concern for
others in the group.
Attempts to enlarge this by defining the group broadly -
all Germans, all Aryans, all Muslims or all
Proletarians, do not seem to work well - in fact they
work very badly indeed.
It seems probable that in the ancestral environment, the
smaller group was the nuclear family surrounded by an
extended family, and the larger group, the band, was a
few hundred people comprising several such extended
families, who were not all that closely related to
oneself, In that environment, the correct behavior to
show to others in the larger group is mutuality, rather
than altruism, and this is in fact what we do show.
Altruism towards others in the large group is within the
human potential, but past experience shows it is a
stretch. Just as cats being social is barely within the
potential of cats, altruism towards others in the larger
group is barely within the human potential.
Mutuality within the larger group (in the sense that
lots of insurance companies have "mutual" in their name)
does work. Members of the larger group have a deal that
they will see to the safety of other members of the
group in an emergency, and that other will see to their
safety.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees The Absurdity Of Darwinism |
30 Aug 2007 12:31:26 AM |
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James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:pt6cd3l0vb32eulu7tj7c7pagp457sbj2c@4ax.com...
"Dr. Zarkov"
Saying that there are cases of fighting among closely
related individuals does not prove anything. You can
find lots of "cases" of many things, including
suicide. More careful observations and experiments
have supported the hypothesis that individuals tend to
show concern for others based in large part on the
closeness of genetic identity. But remember that
humans evolved in relatively small social groups, in
which members shared many of the same genes. There
was thus evolutionary pressure to show concern for
others in the group.
Attempts to enlarge this by defining the group broadly -
all Germans, all Aryans, all Muslims or all
Proletarians, do not seem to work well - in fact they
work very badly indeed.
It seems probable that in the ancestral environment, the
smaller group was the nuclear family surrounded by an
extended family, and the larger group, the band, was a
few hundred people comprising several such extended
families, who were not all that closely related to
oneself, In that environment, the correct behavior to
show to others in the larger group is mutuality, rather
than altruism, and this is in fact what we do show.
There is no evidence for the view that the 'nuclear family' existed at all.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 02:02:07 AM |
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Dr. Zarkov <Ming@Mongo.com> wrote in message
news:46d42cd3_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
brique wrote:
James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote
Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstr
ongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges
neo-Darwinism Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not
a religious man and no defender of any type of
creationism, wrote a book Darwinian Fairytales
(Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury
Series in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the
principal neo-Darwinian concepts of kin selection
and inclusive fitness simply do not conform to the
available evidence - certainly not for humans, and
probably not for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but
have been proposed since that time.
The available evidence clearly shows that humans look
after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if they are
bad, but I will do good to close kin even if they do bad
to me - exactly as Darwin predicted - the available
evidence clearly shows that we behave as predicted from
kin selection and inclusive fitness.
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son,
daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers
have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain
fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a
rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal
countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends'
rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in
which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of
errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to
kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
Thus observation would indicate that your argument that the opposite it
is
exactly as Darwin predicted is in error, for it does not occur in all
cases,
and probably not even in a majority of cases.
As such, it cannot be shown to be the operating mechanism in such kin
relationships, you will need to look elsewhere for your universally
applied
rule, James.
Saying that there are cases of fighting among closely related
individuals does not prove anything. You can find lots of "cases" of
many things, including suicide. More careful observations and
experiments have supported the hypothesis that individuals tend to show
concern for others based in large part on the closeness of genetic
identity. But remember that humans evolved in relatively small social
groups, in which members shared many of the same genes. There was thus
evolutionary pressure to show concern for others in the group.
There may be benefits in showing such kindness in terms of the groups
survival, that is not evidence that such kindness is genetic or a product of
biological evolution, or that there is any mechanism for such kindness to be
transmitted biologically to the offspring.
There is, however, a clear mechanism for such kindness to be transmitted to
the offspring and spread throughout the group, it's called learning. Now,
there is abundant evidence that learned behaviour can be extrememly
influential. Further, that those who learning of that behaviour is flawed or
lacking will tend not to display that behaviour.
Thus we _can_ suggest that the learned behaviour called 'kindness to ones
kin' can be shown to exist, and we can also suggest that it does not exist
in all cases and we can suggest why that is the case without troubling Mr
Darwin Theories at all.
Please recall, James made the claim that kin preference is genetically
transmitted and the product of evolution and further, that it can be
predicted to occur using Mr Darwins theories.
My point is that 'kin preference' can not be predicted at all and the
presence of kind behaviour in one or even many families can not be used to
support the claim when there are clear and abundant cases of unkind
behaviour also occuring, even within the same family.
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| User: "Howard Brazee" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
29 Aug 2007 08:56:35 PM |
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On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:02:07 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
There may be benefits in showing such kindness in terms of the groups
survival, that is not evidence that such kindness is genetic or a product of
biological evolution, or that there is any mechanism for such kindness to be
transmitted biologically to the offspring.
There are quite a few species that like to care for young - so much so
that you can replace their young with cuckoos and they will care for
them.
I saw a film where a leopard killed a monkey for lunch. The monkey's
baby came out, and the leopard tried to care for it.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
30 Aug 2007 12:24:52 AM |
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Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:4q8cd3t0ctfn3uj83o90h77clml9tmns15@4ax.com...
On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:02:07 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
There may be benefits in showing such kindness in terms of the groups
survival, that is not evidence that such kindness is genetic or a product
of
biological evolution, or that there is any mechanism for such kindness to
be
transmitted biologically to the offspring.
There are quite a few species that like to care for young - so much so
that you can replace their young with cuckoos and they will care for
them.
I saw a film where a leopard killed a monkey for lunch. The monkey's
baby came out, and the leopard tried to care for it.
Indeed, animal behaviour can be fascinating and I do not disagree that some
may well be instinctive and thus 'hard-wired' into the genetic make-up of
the animal. It is much harder to say at what point 'hard-wired' behaviour
stops and 'learned' behaviour starts, or to necessarily identify which is
the basis for any behaviour to exist within a group. To state so, as James
does, when evidence also exists for the opposite behaviour, does raise the
question of which of them is supposed to be the evolutionarily-advantagous
genetically transmitted form. If kindness within family groups is such an
evolutionarily-advantagous behaviour transmitted genetically one must also
conclude that unkindness is likewise, for it occcurs as readily and as
'predictably' as kind behaviour. Predictable in the sense that you are as
likely to be wrong as you are to be right whichever you 'predict'.....
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| User: "Jon Schild" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 10:17:00 AM |
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brique wrote:
James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:bfr7d3ha9q03oalfuggma5mf8o1n1cs360@4ax.com...
Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstr
ongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges
neo-Darwinism Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not
a religious man and no defender of any type of
creationism, wrote a book Darwinian Fairytales
(Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury
Series in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the
principal neo-Darwinian concepts of kin selection
and inclusive fitness simply do not conform to the
available evidence - certainly not for humans, and
probably not for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but
have been proposed since that time.
The available evidence clearly shows that humans look
after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if they are
bad, but I will do good to close kin even if they do bad
to me - exactly as Darwin predicted - the available
evidence clearly shows that we behave as predicted from
kin selection and inclusive fitness.
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son, daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends' rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
Thus observation would indicate that your argument that the opposite it is
exactly as Darwin predicted is in error, for it does not occur in all cases,
and probably not even in a majority of cases.
As such, it cannot be shown to be the operating mechanism in such kin
relationships, you will need to look elsewhere for your universally applied
rule, James.
If you look at the number of family groupings that exist, even the
number of cases of abuse/death that occur are a minor aberation.
--
Sufficiently advanced spam is indistinguishable from content.
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 04:15:35 PM |
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Jon Schild <jjs@xmission.com> wrote in message
news:fb1ag5$fs9$1@news.xmission.com...
brique wrote:
James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:bfr7d3ha9q03oalfuggma5mf8o1n1cs360@4ax.com...
Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstr
ongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges
neo-Darwinism Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not
a religious man and no defender of any type of
creationism, wrote a book Darwinian Fairytales
(Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury
Series in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the
principal neo-Darwinian concepts of kin selection
and inclusive fitness simply do not conform to the
available evidence - certainly not for humans, and
probably not for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but
have been proposed since that time.
The available evidence clearly shows that humans look
after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if they are
bad, but I will do good to close kin even if they do bad
to me - exactly as Darwin predicted - the available
evidence clearly shows that we behave as predicted from
kin selection and inclusive fitness.
The available evidence clearly shows that father has killed son,
daughter,
wife, that sons have killed their father and/or mother, that brothers
have
slain their brothers and/or their sisters, and sisters have slain
fathers,
mothers, brothers and so on. Familial abuse is a daily occurence, not a
rare
and momentary aberation. Any examination of civil war will reveal
countless
episodes of kin fighting kin, choosing to stand with their 'friends'
rather
than their 'blood'. There are countless examples of familial splits in
which
members have not spoken to or contacted each other for decades, of
errant
children cast out into exile, of kinship denied, of good _not_ done to
kin
regardless of that kins own good or bad behaviour to their kin.
Thus observation would indicate that your argument that the opposite it
is
exactly as Darwin predicted is in error, for it does not occur in all
cases,
and probably not even in a majority of cases.
As such, it cannot be shown to be the operating mechanism in such kin
relationships, you will need to look elsewhere for your universally
applied
rule, James.
If you look at the number of family groupings that exist, even the
number of cases of abuse/death that occur are a minor aberation.
Don't matter, the presence of _any_ is sufficient to counter the argument
made regarding the kin preference. It is not universal, therefore it is not
predictable, by Darwin, James or anyone.
--
Sufficiently advanced spam is indistinguishable from content.
.
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| User: "RGrannus" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinian Fairy Tales: Australian Atheist Philosopher Sees TheAbsurdity Of Darwinism |
28 Aug 2007 06:10:58 PM |
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On Aug 28, 5:15 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> wrote in message
brique wrote:
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:bfr7d3ha9q03oalfuggma5mf8o1n1cs360@4ax.com...
Sound of Trumpet copied from another source:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/2/2006/04/03/lstr
ongglemgdarwinian_fairy_tales_l_emg_11
Darwinian Fairy Tales: Aussie philosopher challenges
neo-Darwinism Preface
by Denyse O'Leary
ARN correspondent
Australian philosopher David Stove (1927-1994), not
a religious man and no defender of any type of
creationism, wrote a book Darwinian Fairytales
(Avebury Press, 1995), which is part of the Avebury
Series in Philosophy, that shows clearly why the
principal neo-Darwinian concepts of kin selection
and inclusive fitness simply do not conform to the
available evidence - certainly not for humans, and
probably not for many other life forms.
So he objects to two ideas that are not Darwin's, but
have been proposed since that time.
The available evidence clearly shows that humans look
after their kin. My friends, I will ditch if they are
bad, but I will do good to close kin even if they do bad
to me - exactly as Darwin predicted - the available
evidence clearly shows that we behave as predicted from
kin selection and inclusive fitness.
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