Religions > Atheism > Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
18 Oct 2007 05:12:35 PM |
| Object: |
Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912331/posts
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
(James Watson)
Daily Mail ^ | 10/17/07
Posted on 10/17/2007 1:36:52 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
One of the world's most eminent scientists is at the centre of a row
after claiming black people are less intelligent than whites.
James Watson, who won the Nobel Prize for his part in discovering the
structure of DNA, has drawn condemnation for comments made ahead of
his arrival in Britain tomorrow for a speaking tour.
Dr Watson, who now runs one of America's leading scientific research
institutions, made the controversial remarks in an interview in The
Sunday Times.
The 79-year-old geneticist said he was "inherently gloomy about the
prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the
fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the
testing says not really".
He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that "people
who have to deal with black employees find this not true".
He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human
intelligence could be found within a decade.
He includes his views in a new book, published this week, in which he
writes that "there is no firm reason to anticipate that the
intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their
evolution should prove to have evolved identically".
"Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal
heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so," he says.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission is now studying Dr Watson's
remarks "in full".
Dr Watson arrives in Britain to promote his latest book, Avoid Boring
People: Lessons from a Life in Science.
Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee,
told the Independent: "It is sad to see a scientist of such
achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive
comments.
"I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to
be Dr Watson's personal prejudices. These comments serve as a reminder
of the attitudes which can still exist at the highest professional
levels."
Dr Watson was hailed as achieving one of the greatest single
scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at the
University of Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s, forming part of the
team which discovered the structure of DNA.
He shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine with his British colleague
Francis Crick and New Zealand-born Maurice Wilkins.
He has served for 50 years as a director of the Cold Spring Harbour
Laboratory on Long Island, considered a world leader in research into
cancer and genetics.
He has courted controversy in the past, reportedly saying that a woman
should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could
determine it would be homosexual.
He has suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing a
theory that black people have higher libidos.
He also claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying:
"People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think
it would be great."
Steven Rose, a professor of biological sciences at the Open
University, told the Independent: "This is Watson at his most
scandalous. He has said similar things about women before but I have
never heard him get into this racist terrain.
"If he knew the literature in the subject he would know he was out of
his depth scientifically, quite apart from socially and politically."
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| User: "theSalamander" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
18 Oct 2007 05:32:08 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:1192745555.215667.174580@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912331/posts
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
(James Watson)
<snip>
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" / evolution???
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
18 Oct 2007 05:59:32 PM |
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On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
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| User: "Alan Petrillo" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less IntelligentThan Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 10:51:50 PM |
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James A. Donald wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Perhaps, but according to Jared Diamond, in his book /Guns, Germs, and
Steel/, people from Papua New Guinea are probably among the most
intelligent people on Earth. He supports this claim quite well.
AP
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
21 Oct 2007 05:22:26 PM |
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Alan Petrill
according to Jared Diamond, in his book /Guns, Germs,
and Steel/, people from Papua New Guinea are probably
among the most intelligent people on Earth. He
supports this claim quite well.
I have never examined this claim, and don't recall it.
I have investigated a few of his claims, and found he
was pulling facts out of his arse: Jared Diamond is not
a reliable source. On matters relating to the
environment, that Jared Diamond claims X is better as
evidence that X is false, than as evidence that X is
true.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
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| User: "Gene Ward Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
21 Oct 2007 06:03:42 PM |
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James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in
news:n4knh3lv9nqbcpq98pc3eieruem83280he@4ax.com:
I have never examined this claim, and don't recall it.
I have investigated a few of his claims, and found he
was pulling facts out of his arse: Jared Diamond is not
a reliable source.
And the Duck is an expert on pulling things out of hos arse, so you can
trust what he says about it.
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| User: "Bill Snyder" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
21 Oct 2007 05:26:03 PM |
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On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:22:26 +1000, James A. Donald
<jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:
Alan Petrill
according to Jared Diamond, in his book /Guns, Germs,
and Steel/, people from Papua New Guinea are probably
among the most intelligent people on Earth. He
supports this claim quite well.
I have never examined this claim, and don't recall it.
I have investigated a few of his claims, and found he
was pulling facts out of his arse: Jared Diamond is not
a reliable source. On matters relating to the
environment, that Jared Diamond claims X is better as
evidence that X is false, than as evidence that X is
true.
Strange, that's how most of us feel about you. Had any good
conversations with your dog about property rights lately?
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less IntelligentThan Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
21 Oct 2007 08:33:05 PM |
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Bill Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:22:26 +1000, James A. Donald
<jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:
Alan Petrill
according to Jared Diamond, in his book /Guns, Germs,
and Steel/, people from Papua New Guinea are probably
among the most intelligent people on Earth. He
supports this claim quite well.
I have never examined this claim, and don't recall it.
I have investigated a few of his claims, and found he
was pulling facts out of his arse: Jared Diamond is not
a reliable source. On matters relating to the
environment, that Jared Diamond claims X is better as
evidence that X is false, than as evidence that X is
true.
Strange, that's how most of us feel about you. Had any good
conversations with your dog about property rights lately?
Given JAD's track record, if he said the sky was blue, I'd give long
odds that it was green with pink and purple streaks.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://tinyurl.com/3akhhr
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
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| User: "Gene Ward Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
21 Oct 2007 08:45:07 PM |
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Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in news:5o2d0fFko97gU2
@mid.individual.net:
Given JAD's track record, if he said the sky was blue, I'd give long
odds that it was green with pink and purple streaks.
The funny thing is that Jared Diamond is sometimes annoying for just the
reason the Duck says, but the Duck does exactly the same thing more and
better. Diamond thinks the modern populations who until recently had
stone-age technology are smarter than other people, and has a just-so
story to back it up. The Duck thinks they are dumber, and has a just-so
story to back it up. In both cases the source of the "fact" these just-so
stories are "explaining" is exactly the same--they both pulled it out of
their mucus-laden rectums.
The difference, of course, is that you'll learn more by reading Diamond
than the Duck, since he isn't a major loon, only a minor one.
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| User: "Bill Snyder" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
22 Oct 2007 12:01:20 PM |
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On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 01:45:07 GMT, Gene Ward Smith
<genie@chewbacca.org> wrote:
Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in news:5o2d0fFko97gU2
@mid.individual.net:
Given JAD's track record, if he said the sky was blue, I'd give long
odds that it was green with pink and purple streaks.
The funny thing is that Jared Diamond is sometimes annoying for just the
reason the Duck says, but the Duck does exactly the same thing more and
better. Diamond thinks the modern populations who until recently had
stone-age technology are smarter than other people, and has a just-so
story to back it up. The Duck thinks they are dumber, and has a just-so
story to back it up. In both cases the source of the "fact" these just-so
stories are "explaining" is exactly the same--they both pulled it out of
their mucus-laden rectums.
The difference, of course, is that you'll learn more by reading Diamond
than the Duck, since he isn't a major loon, only a minor one.
Where I have problems with Diamond, it's more with his reasoning. The
biggie that comes to mind at the moment is the claim that one reason
Africa lacked riding/draft animals is that zebras are so much more
difficult to domesticate than horses. Which looks to me like a major
league apples vs oranges comparison.
There's been so much gene-mixing that "wild" horses today -- with one
possible exception -- are all descended in major part from escaped
domesticated ones. The exception is Przewalski's horse, which is a)
held by some to be very close to the original wild stock, and b)
different enough from the "normal" variety that it has a different
chromosome count (altho' they produce fertile hybrids). Perhaps
significantly, it has as far as anyone knows never been domesticated.
So Diamond is AFAICS attaching significance to long-time domesticated
equid stock being easier to domesticate than never-domesticated ditto.
Wow, really? Moreover, there's the quagga, a now-extinct zebra
subspecies, which was supposedly quite docile; and the still-extant
Burchell's zebra, reported to also be significantly easier to handle
than the plains variety.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
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| User: "Mike Schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
22 Oct 2007 12:16:40 PM |
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"Bill Snyder" <bsnyder@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:33jph3djo4afuli9jnkquvfduchstvec7h@4ax.com...
Where I have problems with Diamond, it's more with his reasoning. The
biggie that comes to mind at the moment is the claim that one reason
Africa lacked riding/draft animals is that zebras are so much more
difficult to domesticate than horses. Which looks to me like a major
league apples vs oranges comparison.
There's been so much gene-mixing that "wild" horses today -- with one
possible exception -- are all descended in major part from escaped
domesticated ones. The exception is Przewalski's horse, which is a)
held by some to be very close to the original wild stock, and b)
different enough from the "normal" variety that it has a different
chromosome count (altho' they produce fertile hybrids). Perhaps
significantly, it has as far as anyone knows never been domesticated.
Or perhaps not significantly, since it is suggestive that it hasn't
interbred as much with escaped domesticated horses as the other wild stocks
have. Perhaps they really are harder to tame than the original equine
stock.
So Diamond is AFAICS attaching significance to long-time domesticated
equid stock being easier to domesticate than never-domesticated ditto.
Wow, really? Moreover, there's the quagga, a now-extinct zebra
subspecies, which was supposedly quite docile; and the still-extant
Burchell's zebra, reported to also be significantly easier to handle
than the plains variety.
Since there are other domesticated anmals in Africa, I'd think the best
argument that zebras are harder to tame than horses is that they weren't
tamed anywhere, by anyone. Anything further amounts to a Just So Story.
And I agree that Diamond is not immune to those.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
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| User: "Bill Snyder" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
22 Oct 2007 03:57:11 PM |
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On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:16:40 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Bill Snyder" <bsnyder@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:33jph3djo4afuli9jnkquvfduchstvec7h@4ax.com...
Where I have problems with Diamond, it's more with his reasoning. The
biggie that comes to mind at the moment is the claim that one reason
Africa lacked riding/draft animals is that zebras are so much more
difficult to domesticate than horses. Which looks to me like a major
league apples vs oranges comparison.
There's been so much gene-mixing that "wild" horses today -- with one
possible exception -- are all descended in major part from escaped
domesticated ones. The exception is Przewalski's horse, which is a)
held by some to be very close to the original wild stock, and b)
different enough from the "normal" variety that it has a different
chromosome count (altho' they produce fertile hybrids). Perhaps
significantly, it has as far as anyone knows never been domesticated.
Or perhaps not significantly, since it is suggestive that it hasn't
interbred as much with escaped domesticated horses as the other wild stocks
have. Perhaps they really are harder to tame than the original equine
stock.
Well, maybe, but the alternate theory seems to be that they're an
*offshoot* of the domesticated variety, rather than an exceptionally
ornery result of some pre-domestication branching.
So Diamond is AFAICS attaching significance to long-time domesticated
equid stock being easier to domesticate than never-domesticated ditto.
Wow, really? Moreover, there's the quagga, a now-extinct zebra
subspecies, which was supposedly quite docile; and the still-extant
Burchell's zebra, reported to also be significantly easier to handle
than the plains variety.
Since there are other domesticated anmals in Africa, I'd think the best
argument that zebras are harder to tame than horses is that they weren't
tamed anywhere, by anyone. Anything further amounts to a Just So Story.
And I agree that Diamond is not immune to those.
There was some Brit peer or other who imported quaggas, and put a pair
of them to pulling a carriage; and they're generally described as no
harder to handle than a horse. Given our total ignorance of how much
effort went into trying to tame horses vs zebras, I find that a lot
more persuasive than the argument that it must be difficult because
nobody did it.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
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| User: "Gene Ward Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
22 Oct 2007 04:02:16 PM |
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Bill Snyder <bsnyder@airmail.net> wrote in
news:qhqph3d5r0bsp9af153im5a69a86tdf4ik@4ax.com:
Given our total ignorance of how much
effort went into trying to tame horses vs zebras, I find that a lot
more persuasive than the argument that it must be difficult because
nobody did it.
As I recall Ayla didn't have much trouble; she raised her horse from a foal
and it was quite tame as a consequence.
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| User: "veritas" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
22 Oct 2007 02:29:30 PM |
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On Oct 22, 12:16 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Bill Snyder" <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:33jph3djo4afuli9jnkquvfduchstvec7h@4ax.com...
Where I have problems with Diamond, it's more with his reasoning. The
biggie that comes to mind at the moment is the claim that one reason
Africa lacked riding/draft animals is that zebras are so much more
difficult to domesticate than horses. Which looks to me like a major
league apples vs oranges comparison.
There's been so much gene-mixing that "wild" horses today -- with one
possible exception -- are all descended in major part from escaped
domesticated ones. The exception is Przewalski's horse, which is a)
held by some to be very close to the original wild stock, and b)
different enough from the "normal" variety that it has a different
chromosome count (altho' they produce fertile hybrids). Perhaps
significantly, it has as far as anyone knows never been domesticated.
Or perhaps not significantly, since it is suggestive that it hasn't
interbred as much with escaped domesticated horses as the other wild stocks
have. Perhaps they really are harder to tame than the original equine
stock.
So Diamond is AFAICS attaching significance to long-time domesticated
equid stock being easier to domesticate than never-domesticated ditto.
Wow, really? Moreover, there's the quagga, a now-extinct zebra
subspecies, which was supposedly quite docile; and the still-extant
Burchell's zebra, reported to also be significantly easier to handle
than the plains variety.
Since there are other domesticated anmals in Africa, I'd think the best
argument that zebras are harder to tame than horses is that they weren't
tamed anywhere, by anyone. Anything further amounts to a Just So Story.
And I agree that Diamond is not immune to those.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't see where his list is wrong. 148 herbivores over 200 kg in
the world and 14 are able to be domesticated and the rest not for one
reason or another. The others are still not domesticated, so where is
the argument? If only one was in the North-South America region, then
no use for wheels, when there is nothing to pull it but dogs. He
makes perfect sense. He also did not make any point I saw that said
that people such as Indians in the Americas were not as smart. Only
shocked by the technology and the diseases that did kill more Indians
than bullets or any battles. While he may be predesposed to some
conlusions, for the most part he seems to be correct in "Guns, Germs,
and Steel". "Collapse" I had a little more problem with, as he seemed
to have also. He wandered a bit, and some of his story seemed,
disjointed. Ken
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| User: "Richard D. Latham" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
21 Oct 2007 02:07:19 PM |
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Alan Petrillo <asp@baylink.com> writes:
James A. Donald wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" / evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If humans are
evolving right now, the different human races differ because of
different selective pressures - for example fair skins are a
response to vitamin D deficiency caused by heavy reliance on
clothing and shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with greater
adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus for example Otzi the
iceman, frozen in the alps five thousand years ago, had tailored
clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Perhaps, but according to Jared Diamond, in his book /Guns, Germs, and
Steel/, people from Papua New Guinea are probably among the most
intelligent people on Earth. He supports this claim quite well.
Sounds interesting, but my google-fu is too weak. I tried "Papua New
Guinea" +intelligence , but that didn't seem to be the right magic
words.
That seems to contradict what I'd seen. I've seen various swizzles of
the data abstracted at <http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm> . I've
never cared enough about the topic to do drill-down to primary
sources. The term "lies, damn lies and statistics" seems particularly
apropos for the topic in question, so I tend to take everything I see
on this topic with a larger that normal helping of NaCl.
Do you happen to have any URLs specific to Diamond's claim lying
around on the topic ? Thanks.
--
#include <disclaimer.std> /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't believe me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less IntelligentThan Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
21 Oct 2007 12:54:25 PM |
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Alan Petrillo <asp@baylink.com> wrote in message
news:471accf9$0$16466$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
James A. Donald wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Perhaps, but according to Jared Diamond, in his book /Guns, Germs, and
Steel/, people from Papua New Guinea are probably among the most
intelligent people on Earth. He supports this claim quite well.
You have to love James' logical leaps.... a true intellectual gazelle, he
be.
man lives in cold climate, man wears clothes..... ergo : he intelligent cos
he wears clothes.
man lives in hot, hot, hot climate, man don't wear clothes..... ergo : he
dumb, cos he don't wear clothes.
Gentlemen, we are in the presence of genuis...... be humble.
AP
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
23 Oct 2007 11:36:52 PM |
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On Oct 20, 11:51 pm, Alan Petrillo <a...@baylink.com> wrote:
James A. Donald wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Perhaps, but according to Jared Diamond, in his book /Guns, Germs, and
Steel/, people from Papua New Guinea are probably among the most
intelligent people on Earth. He supports this claim quite well.
How does he do this? It should be said immediately that a really bad
test would be to see whether they are among the best at what they do
(i.e. have done ancestrally). They likely are, whatever that is (e.g.,
hunting). That would merely confirm the point of adaptationism: they
have adapted to their environment.
The real test would be to see whether they can beat the Europeans at
the Europeans' own game. That, and only that, would contradict the
claim that different human populations are differently adapted to
their respective environments.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
18 Oct 2007 09:14:50 PM |
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On Oct 18, 6:59 pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
Whether you're a racist or a flaming liberal, (or just a regular
person), this is required reading:
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393061310/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-1473363-0202558?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192759243&sr=1-3
Everyone will find an objective study of how and why different
cultures evolved and developed.
And you'll all get fuel for your arguements.
.
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| User: "bowman" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
18 Oct 2007 11:34:01 PM |
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wrote:
Everyone will find an objective study of how and why different
cultures evolved and developed.
Diamond's objectivity is questionable.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Michael Price" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
19 Oct 2007 01:46:42 AM |
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On Oct 19, 8:59 am, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Specifically it would put more pressure on the tropical
people because they had to get by without as sophisticated
an array of tools. So why are blacks usually believed to be
less intelligent?
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
19 Oct 2007 04:41:59 PM |
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Michael Price <nini_pad@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192776402.880129.234740@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 19, 8:59 am, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Specifically it would put more pressure on the tropical
people because they had to get by without as sophisticated
an array of tools. So why are blacks usually believed to be
less intelligent?
Let's see...... you have to spend a month in the Kalahari : no food, no
water, just your feet to carry you. Which companion would you prefer : A/:
An illiterate bushman with a sharp stick, or B/: A top-grade tax lawyer with
a Swiss Army knife.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "Michael Price" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
24 Oct 2007 02:31:21 AM |
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On Oct 20, 7:41 am, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Michael Price <nini_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192776402.880129.234740@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 19, 8:59 am, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Specifically it would put more pressure on the tropical
people because they had to get by without as sophisticated
an array of tools. So why are blacks usually believed to be
less intelligent?
Let's see...... you have to spend a month in the Kalahari : no food, no
water, just your feet to carry you. Which companion would you prefer : A/:
An illiterate bushman with a sharp stick, or B/: A top-grade tax lawyer with
a Swiss Army knife.
What has that got to do with intelligence? Being illiterate has
nothing to
do with intelligence.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "Alan Petrillo" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less IntelligentThan Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 10:53:35 PM |
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brique wrote:
Michael Price <nini_pad@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192776402.880129.234740@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 19, 8:59 am, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Specifically it would put more pressure on the tropical
people because they had to get by without as sophisticated
an array of tools. So why are blacks usually believed to be
less intelligent?
Let's see...... you have to spend a month in the Kalahari : no food, no
water, just your feet to carry you. Which companion would you prefer : A/:
An illiterate bushman with a sharp stick, or B/: A top-grade tax lawyer with
a Swiss Army knife.
I think I'd take the Lawyer. He'd probably be delicious. ;-)
AP
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
19 Oct 2007 04:59:37 PM |
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brique wrote:
Michael Price wrote
Specifically it would put more pressure on the tropical
people because they had to get by without as sophisticated
an array of tools. So why are blacks usually believed to be
less intelligent?
Let's see...... you have to spend a month in the Kalahari : no food, no
water, just your feet to carry you. Which companion would you prefer : A/:
An illiterate bushman with a sharp stick, or B/: A top-grade tax lawyer with
a Swiss Army knife.
A companion where? The only place a lawyer with a pointy bit of metal
would be useful is a court room. Someone accustomed to complete
independence, used to defending himself against all odds and ready and
willing to kill predators would be useful pretty much anywhere
dangerous.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 04:38:23 AM |
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L. Raymond <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:18l79us9sq550$.sf87hpj7fjck$.dlg@40tude.net...
brique wrote:
Michael Price wrote
Specifically it would put more pressure on the tropical
people because they had to get by without as sophisticated
an array of tools. So why are blacks usually believed to be
less intelligent?
Let's see...... you have to spend a month in the Kalahari : no food, no
water, just your feet to carry you. Which companion would you prefer :
A/:
An illiterate bushman with a sharp stick, or B/: A top-grade tax lawyer
with
a Swiss Army knife.
A companion where? The only place a lawyer with a pointy bit of metal
would be useful is a court room. Someone accustomed to complete
independence, used to defending himself against all odds and ready and
willing to kill predators would be useful pretty much anywhere
dangerous.
re-read the statement, it does refer to the Kalahari.
It is a comment on the Jamesian notion that a complex tool (or many) is
superior to a simple one. As ever, it does depend on the notion that
'western' ( for which read 'white, preferably anglo-saxon') solutions must
be superior in all cases.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
23 Oct 2007 11:29:20 PM |
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On Oct 19, 2:46 am, Michael Price <nini_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Oct 19, 8:59 am, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:32:08 GMT, "theSalamander"
And this has what to do with "Darwinism" /
evolution???
If humans evolved, they are evolving right now. If
humans are evolving right now, the different human races
differ because of different selective pressures - for
example fair skins are a response to vitamin D
deficiency caused by heavy reliance on clothing and
shelter.
We expect therefore to see fair skins correlate with
greater adaption to an environment of artifacts - thus
for example Otzi the iceman, frozen in the alps five
thousand years ago, had tailored clothes and a backpack
full of tools for making tools, while in the tropics,
the typical native until recently went around naked
carrying nothing but a sharp stick. This must have
imposed significant differential selective pressures on
mental characteristics.
Specifically it would put more pressure on the tropical
people because they had to get by without as sophisticated
an array of tools. So why are blacks usually believed to be
less intelligent?
That is of course deliberately one-sided, looking at only certain
factors and ignoring others, presumably in the service of political
correctness. It is, in short, not a serious contribution to
discussion.
.
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| User: "Lee me@localhost" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 01:54:37 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:1192745555.215667.174580@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912331/posts
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
(James Watson)
Daily Mail ^ | 10/17/07
Posted on 10/17/2007 1:36:52 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
This claim does not go on to say which black people. There are people from
all over the Southern Hemisphere covering three continents with colouring
that may fit the description of black, ignoring the colour though there are
many differences from tall Massai in North Africa to Polynesians and
Aboriginals in Australia.
The latter were tested in Australia and found to be better at remembering
natural objects than Europeans, presumably the outcome of 60,000 years of
tracking and hunter gathering. The Bushman in the Kalahari have a unique
clicking language not found anywhere else.
So there is the possibility that there are minor differences in the way
widely separated groups of humans have developed over time, but claiming
that 'black people' are unintelligent sounds like a misleading blanket term
and a little surprising to be coming from a person that has a scientific
background.
He may be an expert with DNA but as far as anthropology is concerned seems a
complete non starter.
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 03:42:05 PM |
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Lee <me@localhost> wrote in message
news:471a4edd$0$13932$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:1192745555.215667.174580@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912331/posts
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
(James Watson)
Daily Mail ^ | 10/17/07
Posted on 10/17/2007 1:36:52 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
This claim does not go on to say which black people. There are people from
all over the Southern Hemisphere covering three continents with colouring
that may fit the description of black, ignoring the colour though there
are
many differences from tall Massai in North Africa to Polynesians and
Aboriginals in Australia.
The latter were tested in Australia and found to be better at remembering
natural objects than Europeans, presumably the outcome of 60,000 years of
tracking and hunter gathering. The Bushman in the Kalahari have a unique
clicking language not found anywhere else.
So there is the possibility that there are minor differences in the way
widely separated groups of humans have developed over time, but claiming
that 'black people' are unintelligent sounds like a misleading blanket
term
and a little surprising to be coming from a person that has a scientific
background.
He may be an expert with DNA but as far as anthropology is concerned seems
a
complete non starter.
I think the 'lack' of intelligence is as defined in western terms of what
constitutes intelligence in the first place. I'm sure the kalahari bushmen,
when confronted with the average western tourist floundering in the midday
heat, would shake their heads and click, uniquely, 'What an idiot!'
.
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| User: "Lee me@localhost" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 04:24:10 PM |
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"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote in message
news:1192913112.18748.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
Lee <me@localhost> wrote in message
news:471a4edd$0$13932$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:1192745555.215667.174580@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912331/posts
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
(James Watson)
Daily Mail ^ | 10/17/07
Posted on 10/17/2007 1:36:52 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
This claim does not go on to say which black people. There are people
from
all over the Southern Hemisphere covering three continents with
colouring
that may fit the description of black, ignoring the colour though there
are
many differences from tall Massai in North Africa to Polynesians and
Aboriginals in Australia.
The latter were tested in Australia and found to be better at remembering
natural objects than Europeans, presumably the outcome of 60,000 years of
tracking and hunter gathering. The Bushman in the Kalahari have a unique
clicking language not found anywhere else.
So there is the possibility that there are minor differences in the way
widely separated groups of humans have developed over time, but claiming
that 'black people' are unintelligent sounds like a misleading blanket
term
and a little surprising to be coming from a person that has a scientific
background.
He may be an expert with DNA but as far as anthropology is concerned
seems
a
complete non starter.
I think the 'lack' of intelligence is as defined in western terms of what
constitutes intelligence in the first place. I'm sure the kalahari
bushmen,
when confronted with the average western tourist floundering in the midday
heat, would shake their heads and click, uniquely, 'What an idiot!'
Measuring intelligence amongst similar people from the same culture and
backgrounds is not an exact science so his statement is pretty meaningless.
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 08:34:04 PM |
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Lee <me@localhost> wrote in message
news:471a71ea$0$8423$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote in message
news:1192913112.18748.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
Lee <me@localhost> wrote in message
news:471a4edd$0$13932$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:1192745555.215667.174580@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912331/posts
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
(James Watson)
Daily Mail ^ | 10/17/07
Posted on 10/17/2007 1:36:52 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
This claim does not go on to say which black people. There are people
from
all over the Southern Hemisphere covering three continents with
colouring
that may fit the description of black, ignoring the colour though there
are
many differences from tall Massai in North Africa to Polynesians and
Aboriginals in Australia.
The latter were tested in Australia and found to be better at
remembering
natural objects than Europeans, presumably the outcome of 60,000 years
of
tracking and hunter gathering. The Bushman in the Kalahari have a
unique
clicking language not found anywhere else.
So there is the possibility that there are minor differences in the way
widely separated groups of humans have developed over time, but
claiming
that 'black people' are unintelligent sounds like a misleading blanket
term
and a little surprising to be coming from a person that has a
scientific
background.
He may be an expert with DNA but as far as anthropology is concerned
seems
a
complete non starter.
I think the 'lack' of intelligence is as defined in western terms of
what
constitutes intelligence in the first place. I'm sure the kalahari
bushmen,
when confronted with the average western tourist floundering in the
midday
heat, would shake their heads and click, uniquely, 'What an idiot!'
Measuring intelligence amongst similar people from the same culture and
backgrounds is not an exact science so his statement is pretty
meaningless.
Indeed.
.
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| User: "veritas" |
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| Title: Re: Darwinism Showing Its True Face: "Black People Are Less Intelligent Than Whites" Claims One Of The World's Most Eminent Darwinists |
20 Oct 2007 10:44:13 PM |
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On Oct 20, 3:42 pm, "brique" <briquen...@freeuk.c0m> wrote:
Lee <me@localhost> wrote in message
news:471a4edd$0$13932$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trum...@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:1192745555.215667.174580@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912331/posts
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
(James Watson)
Daily Mail ^ | 10/17/07
Posted on 10/17/2007 1:36:52 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
'Black people are less intelligent than whites', claims DNA pioneer
This claim does not go on to say which black people. There are people from
all over the Southern Hemisphere covering three continents with colouring
that may fit the description of black, ignoring the colour though there
are
many differences from tall Massai in North Africa to Polynesians and
Aboriginals in Australia.
The latter were tested in Australia and found to be better at remembering
natural objects than Europeans, presumably the outcome of 60,000 years of
tracking and hunter gathering. The Bushman in the Kalahari have a unique
clicking language not found anywhere else.
So there is the possibility that there are minor differences in the way
widely separated groups of humans have developed over time, but claiming
that 'black people' are unintelligent sounds like a misleading blanket
term
and a little surprising to be coming from a person that has a scientific
background.
He may be an expert with DNA but as far as anthropology is concerned seems
a
complete non starter.
I think the 'lack' of intelligence is as defined in western terms of what
constitutes intelligence in the first place. I'm sure the kalahari bushmen,
when confronted with the average western tourist floundering in the midday
heat, would shake their heads and click, uniquely, 'What an idiot!'
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
There is a difference between experience and I.Q. I bet New Yorkers
would be shaking their heads at kalahari bushmen floundering about
Central Park looking for a place to camp. Ken
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