| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
21 Dec 2006 11:16:19 PM |
| Object: |
David Irving freed |
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6196073.stm
Holocaust denier to be released
An Austrian appeals court has ruled that UK historian David Irving -
jailed for denying the Holocaust - should be released on probation.
Irving is now being held in police detention and will be deported to
the UK on Thursday, officials said.
Irving was convicted in February in a case that sparked international
debate about the limits of freedom of speech.
In 1989 he spoke in Austria denying the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz, though he later said he was "mistaken".
The appeals court in Vienna had heard calls for both a reduction and
increase in his sentence.
Irving on Wednesday welcomed his release and said he was "fit and
well".
The 68-year-old said he would urge an academic boycott of historians
from Germany and Austria until the nations stopped jailing historians.
"I was put in prison for three years for expressing an opinion 17 years
ago," he said.
The BBC's Kerry Skyring in Vienna said the presiding judge converted
the remaining two years of Irving's jail term to a provisional
sentence, upholding his appeal.
Speaking after the ruling, his lawyer, Herbert Schaller, said: "He is
free, and he can leave, and he will leave."
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| User: "Parsifal" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 12:42:31 AM |
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J Young a =E9crit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
=20
=20
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
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| User: "PaulR" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 12:57:11 AM |
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Parsifal a écrit :
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
What is more interesting is to find Austria as extreme today against
holocaust deniers as it was years ago as a prime holocaust promoter !
--
A Teaching Job Anywhere in the World !
Learn to Teach English Abroad.
http://tefl.bazaar-dot.com
http://worldtefl.bazaar-dot.com
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 08:08:23 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 01:57:11 -0500, PaulR <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Parsifal a écrit :
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
What is more interesting is to find Austria as extreme today against
holocaust deniers as it was years ago as a prime holocaust promoter !
Ol' Adolf was an Austrian, and so where quite a few of the worst
Nazis. Not exactly the most honored citizens of the nation today.
What strikes me as rather odd is that a law is needed to shut them up.
One might start to wonder as to why?
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| User: "Parsifal" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 04:16:28 AM |
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PaulR a =E9crit :
Parsifal a =E9crit :
J Young a =E9crit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
What is more interesting is to find Austria as extreme today against
holocaust deniers as it was years ago as a prime holocaust promoter !
Well, this law also exists in several other countries in Europe.
But you're right about Austria... Probably part of a "let's make sure
it won't happen again" syndrome...
--
A Teaching Job Anywhere in the World !
Learn to Teach English Abroad.
http://tefl.bazaar-dot.com
http://worldtefl.bazaar-dot.com
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| User: "PaulR" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 06:07:26 AM |
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Parsifal a écrit :
PaulR a écrit :
Parsifal a écrit :
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
What is more interesting is to find Austria as extreme today against
holocaust deniers as it was years ago as a prime holocaust promoter !
Well, this law also exists in several other countries in Europe.
But you're right about Austria... Probably part of a "let's make sure
it won't happen again" syndrome...
IT does happen again, but in reverse.
--
A Teaching Job Anywhere in the World !
Learn to Teach English Abroad.
http://tefl.bazaar-dot.com
http://worldtefl.bazaar-dot.com
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 04:09:55 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:07:26 -0500 PaulR <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> said the
following in alt.atheism and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Parsifal a écrit :
PaulR a écrit :
Parsifal a écrit :
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
What is more interesting is to find Austria as extreme today against
holocaust deniers as it was years ago as a prime holocaust promoter !
Well, this law also exists in several other countries in Europe.
But you're right about Austria... Probably part of a "let's make sure
it won't happen again" syndrome...
IT does happen again, but in reverse.
Really? So Holocaust deniers are being rounded up at gunpoint, shoved
into cattlecars until there is no room to move, then either
slaughtered like animals or worked to death on starvation rations?
You8 use of zionist in other posts is telling. Yet another Nazi
crawls out from the slime.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Paulr" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 09:12:33 AM |
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PaulR wrote:
Parsifal a écrit :
PaulR a écrit :
Parsifal a écrit :
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
What is more interesting is to find Austria as extreme today against
holocaust deniers as it was years ago as a prime holocaust promoter !
Why is this so interesting? Is it not a good thing that a nation can learn
from its mistakes?
Well, this law also exists in several other countries in Europe.
But you're right about Austria... Probably part of a "let's make sure
it won't happen again" syndrome...
Exactly. What the holocaust deniers and various other racists and
ingnoramouses don't understand is the damage the Nazis caused to the social
fabric Europe. These laws were brought in for a reason....
IT does happen again, but in reverse.
Absolute *****!! To compare David Irving's (a two bit liar who calls
himself a "historian") experience to any of these is patently rediculous:
http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/
Paul
(no connection whatsoever to that other PaulR)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 06:51:07 AM |
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Parsifal wrote:
J Young a =E9crit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
Does the fact that Irving support the truth make him a Nazi?
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| User: "PaulR" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 07:22:30 AM |
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a écrit :
Parsifal wrote:
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
Does the fact that Irving support the truth make him a Nazi?
I guest anyone who collaborated with the Nazis were also nazis.
The persecution of all the those who dare oppose the official zionist
version of facts is in the hands of...Zionists.
The very type of Zionists who, fron all across occupied Europe and
Palestine... openly collaborated with the Nazi regime. That is what
makes this dubious chapter so nauseating.
--
A Teaching Job Anywhere in the World !
Learn to Teach English Abroad.
http://tefl.bazaar-dot.com
http://worldtefl.bazaar-dot.com
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| User: "Kenneth McVay OBC" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 04:43:27 PM |
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In article <1166791867.647291.264140@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>,
<ojumomo@yahoo.com> wrote:
Parsifal wrote:
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
Does the fact that Irving support the truth make him a Nazi?
"Reputable and professional historians do not suppress parts of quotations
from documents that go against their own case, but take them into
account and if necessary amend their own case accordingly. They do
not present as genuine documents those that they know to be forged
just because these forgeries happen to back up what they are saying.
They do not invent ingenious but implausible and utterly unsupported
reasons for distrusting genuine documents because these documents
run counter to their arguments; again, they amend their arguments if
this is the case, or abandon them altogether.
They do not consciously attribute their own conclusions to books and
other sources which, in fact, on closer inspection, actually say the
opposite. They do not eagerly seek out the highest possible figures
in a series of statistics, independently of their reliability or
otherwise, simply because they want for whatever reason to maximize
the figure in question, but rather, they assess all the available
figures as impartially as possible in order to arrive at a number
that will withstand the critical scrutiny of others.
They do not knowlingly mistranslate sources in foreign languages to
make them more serviceable to themselves. They do not willfully invent
words, phrases, quoations, incidents, and events for which there is
no historical evidence to make their arguments more plausible to
their readers.
"At least, they do not do any of these things if they wish to retain
any kind of reputable status as historians. Irving has done all
of these things from the beginning of his career. Not one of his
books, speeches, or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence
in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation
of its historical subject. Some of them may be, but we cannot know
until we have checked. It may seem an absurd semantic dispute to
deny the appellation of 'historian' to someone who has written two
dozen books or more about historical subjects. But if we mean by
'historian' someone who is concerned to discover the truth about
the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as
possible, then Irving is not a historian. Those in the know,
indeed, are accustomed to avoid the term altogether when referring
to him and use some circumlocution such as 'historical writer'
instead.
Irving is essentially an ideologue who uses history for his own
political purposes; he is not primarily concerned with discovering
and interpreting what happened in the past, he is concerned merely
to give a selective and tendentious account of it to further his
own ideological ends in the present. The true historian's concern,
however, is with the past. That is why, in my view, Irving is not
a historian." (Evans, Dr. Richard. "Lying About Hitler: History,
Holocaust, And the David Irving Trial," Basic Books, New York 2001,
pp 250-251)
Flyleaf: "Richard J. Evans is Professor of Modern History at
Cambridge University and a noted specialist on modern German
history. He is the author of several books, including "In
Defense of History," "In Hitler's Shadow," and "Death in Hamburg."
He was the principal expert witness for the defense in the
David Irving trial.
--
"By refinishion you i mean you on their side definetly you
opinons are." (Kurt Knoll, Kitimat, B.C.'s Leading Revisionist
Scholar)
The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org/
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| User: "Parsifal" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 12:42:32 AM |
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J Young a =E9crit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
=20
=20
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 06:11:16 AM |
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Parsifal said:
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
Irving no longer contends that the Holocaust was a hoax therefor
anyone who supports Irving must believe the same.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 06:36:31 AM |
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wrote:
Parsifal said:
J Young a =E9crit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
Irving no longer contends that the Holocaust was a hoax therefor
anyone who supports Irving must believe the same.
*****
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| User: "Ghod" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 12:55:50 PM |
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wrote:
reggie@hotmail.com wrote:
Parsifal said:
J Young a écrit :
Guess you can say that David Irving is the last Holocaust survivor
What a surprise: a nazi turd who supports a holocaust denier...
Irving no longer contends that the Holocaust was a hoax therefor
anyone who supports Irving must believe the same.
*****
Hey! Quit SPITTING ON ME!
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| User: "Roedy Green" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 04:17:59 PM |
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On 21 Dec 2006 21:16:19 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
In 1989 he spoke in Austria denying the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz, though he later said he was "mistaken".
This is not right. You must have free academic inquiry into history.
It is reasonable to block hate speech -- calling for the killing of
Jews or other illegal acts but not discussion about our history.
If he has evidence, let him present it, and let fellow historians
evaluate it, debate it, and debunk it if it is wrong. That puts the
matter to bed. If you censor it, it implies what he says must be
true, and only force can keep it hidden.
“The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honour you can bestow on
him. It means that you recognise his superiority to yourself.”
~ Joseph Sobran
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
Priorities: Prevent global climate destabilisation. End both wars. Prepare for oil shortages.
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| User: "Kenneth McVay OBC" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 04:45:59 PM |
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In article <o5moo25ch6m4l015m0lqgr6u614fmvo9q4@4ax.com>,
Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
On 21 Dec 2006 21:16:19 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
In 1989 he spoke in Austria denying the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz, though he later said he was "mistaken".
This is not right. You must have free academic inquiry into history.
It is reasonable to block hate speech -- calling for the killing of
Jews or other illegal acts but not discussion about our history.
Free academic inquiry has absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Irving or
his troubles in Austria.
For Austrian Supreme Court rulings on the laws in question, see
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/austrian/austrian-resistance-archives
In the recently concluded libel trial wherein British faux historian
David Irving attempted to censor an American historian,
Judge Gray said (Excerpts - see URL for complete document):
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-13-01.html
"I am satisfied that in most of the instances cited by the Defendants
Irving has significantly misrepresented what the evidence, objectively
examined, reveals."
"I have concluded that Irving has misrepresented the evidence."
"I accept the evidence of Evans and Longerich that this picture
seriously misrepresents the available contemporaneous evidence."
"To write, as Irving did, that Hitler was "totally unaware of what
Goebbels had done" is in my view to pervert the evidence."
"David Irving brought what turned out to be an unjustified
libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt and lost. One factor was
that the charge of libel was demonstrated to be unfounded,
the other was that David Irving decided to plead his own case
in court and grandstanded instead of focusing on substantive
issues.
"He lost, and the entire triaL is a matter of public record
that he himself spreads through his website.
He also decided to go to Austria, fully knowing that he was
banned from the country and that a warrant was out for his
arrest for violating laws that he admits that he violated.
Once again, all of this is a matter of public record, and
the public is entitled to draw their own conclusions about
the man's motives and sanity.
"Sane people do not falsify and mistranslate historical
documents and then try to silence critics who point this
out. Sane people do not announce in advance that they are
going to travel to a country from which they have been
banned and with an arrest warrant for them outstanding.
Sane people do not plead guilty to violating a lwas, and
then scream "foul" when they are punished, nor do they
violate the law again from their prison cell in a
telephoned interview." (Eugene Holman, alt.revisionism,
March 5, 2006)
--
"By refinishion you i mean you on their side definetly you
opinons are." (Kurt Knoll, Kitimat, B.C.'s Leading Revisionist
Scholar)
The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org/
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| User: "Dr. Zarkov" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 04:58:52 PM |
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Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
In article <o5moo25ch6m4l015m0lqgr6u614fmvo9q4@4ax.com>,
Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
On 21 Dec 2006 21:16:19 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
In 1989 he spoke in Austria denying the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz, though he later said he was "mistaken".
This is not right. You must have free academic inquiry into history.
It is reasonable to block hate speech -- calling for the killing of
Jews or other illegal acts but not discussion about our history.
Free academic inquiry has absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Irving or
his troubles in Austria.
For Austrian Supreme Court rulings on the laws in question, see
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/austrian/austrian-resistance-archives
....
"He lost, and the entire triaL is a matter of public record
that he himself spreads through his website.
He also decided to go to Austria, fully knowing that he was
banned from the country and that a warrant was out for his
arrest for violating laws that he admits that he violated.
....
All this evades the main point: You don't imprison a person for what he
says, no matter how inaccurate or repugnant. It is repugnant to anyone
with any respect for free speech. Justifying it by saying his speech
broke the law is about like justifying the Nazis actions by saying they
were following the law.
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| User: "Marty" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 05:42:37 PM |
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"Dr. Zarkov" <Ming@Mongo.com> wrote> All this evades the main point: You don't
imprison a person for what he
says, no matter how inaccurate or repugnant. It is repugnant to anyone with
any respect for free speech. Justifying it by saying his speech broke the law
is about like justifying the Nazis actions by saying they were following the
law.
In which case, this isn't a debate about Holocaust denial; it's a debate about
the 7 countries (some of them former Soviet Bloc and not Canada or the UK) who
have laws against Holocaust denial which offend the values of free speech.
If they don't like it, they should do their babbling in countries which allow
their views.
COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL (source: BBC)
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland
Turning this into a discussion about how Holocaust deniers are victims is
ludicrous.
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| User: "zr" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 06:16:34 PM |
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It turns out that after 400 days in solitary confinement Irving has had a
revelation.
On the BBC he no longer denies the holocaust, he no longer denies 6 million,
he no longer denies the gas chambers and the ovens.
He now says all of the above are true, but Hitler had no part in it. His
authority was usurped from him without his knowledge and put into play by
others unbenounced to him.
Amazing, I wonder what he would say had he been forced to service his other
4 years.
I have a feeling he might even want to convert.
"Marty" <martywilson5@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:emhqhi$reb$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Dr. Zarkov" <Ming@Mongo.com> wrote> All this evades the main point: You
don't imprison a person for what he
says, no matter how inaccurate or repugnant. It is repugnant to anyone
with any respect for free speech. Justifying it by saying his speech
broke the law is about like justifying the Nazis actions by saying they
were following the law.
In which case, this isn't a debate about Holocaust denial; it's a debate
about the 7 countries (some of them former Soviet Bloc and not Canada or
the UK) who have laws against Holocaust denial which offend the values of
free speech.
If they don't like it, they should do their babbling in countries which
allow their views.
COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL (source: BBC)
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland
Turning this into a discussion about how Holocaust deniers are victims is
ludicrous.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
02 Jan 2007 01:22:07 AM |
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On 22-Dec-2006, "Dr. Zarkov" <Ming@Mongo.com> wrote:
All this evades the main point: You don't imprison a person for what he
says, no matter how inaccurate or repugnant.
You do if you want it clear to the world that your country will not stand
for murder-inducing lies.
Germany has earned the right to punish as it wants for this sort of danger.
It is repugnant to anyone
with any respect for free speech.
No, it's not, because we punish for other types of fraudulent speech.
Justifying it by saying his speech
broke the law is about like justifying the Nazis actions by saying they
were following the law.
And that's just lame.
Susan
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| User: "Avidbuff" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
23 Dec 2006 10:16:53 AM |
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Roedy Green wrote:
On 21 Dec 2006 21:16:19 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
In 1989 he spoke in Austria denying the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz, though he later said he was "mistaken".
This is not right. You must have free academic inquiry into history.
It is reasonable to block hate speech -- calling for the killing of
Jews or other illegal acts but not discussion about our history.
If he has evidence, let him present it, and let fellow historians
evaluate it, debate it, and debunk it if it is wrong. That puts the
matter to bed. If you censor it, it implies what he says must be
true, and only force can keep it hidden.
"The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honour you can bestow on
him. It means that you recognise his superiority to yourself."
~ Joseph Sobran
What constitutes academic enquiry? What qualifications does one require
to be considered an Historian? If I debate the issues of the Middle
East with you should that discussion be given the same weight as those
conducted by professional academics and statesmen?
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| User: "Jonsa" |
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| Title: Re: David Irving freed |
22 Dec 2006 04:31:50 PM |
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Roedy Green wrote:
On 21 Dec 2006 21:16:19 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
In 1989 he spoke in Austria denying the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz, though he later said he was "mistaken".
This is not right. You must have free academic inquiry into history.
It is reasonable to block hate speech -- calling for the killing of
Jews or other illegal acts but not discussion about our history.
If he has evidence, let him present it, and let fellow historians
evaluate it, debate it, and debunk it if it is wrong. That puts the
matter to bed. If you censor it, it implies what he says must be
true, and only force can keep it hidden.
That is precisely the point. He had no "evidence" merely pparrotted the
propaganda and fantasies of neo-nazi scumbags.
and isn't it interesting that every "scientific" denier report has been
totally debunked. Including their shining jewel - the Luetcher Report.
Can you name any scientific analysis by deniers that has actually stood
up to peer scrutiny? Mind you, given the caliber of the deniers
"experts" calling real scientists and historians peers is a major
insult.
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