Death by Secularism



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "The Black Monk"
Date: 26 May 2007 01:28:09 PM
Object: Death by Secularism
Nice to see someone approaching this issue with stats:
the graphs and tables are in the original article:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/IB21Ag01.html
Death by secularism: Some statistical evidence
By Spengler
Infertility is killing off the secular world, a number of writers have
observed, including Phillip Longman, whose 1994 book The Empty Cradle
I reviewed last year. [1] In the former Soviet empire, where atheism
reigned as state policy for generations, the United Nations forecasts
extreme declines in population by 2050, ranging from 22% for the
Russian Federation to nearly 50% for the Ukraine. Secular western
Europe will lose 4% to 12% of its population, while the population of
the churchgoing United States continues to grow. Is secularism at
fault? The numbers do not suggest otherwise.
Humankind cannot abide the terror of mortality without the promise of
immortality, I have argue in the past. [2] In the absence of religion
human society sinks into depressive torpor. Secular society therefore
is an oxymoron, for the death of religion leads quickly enough to the
death of society itself.
These are impressionistic rather than rigorous arguments, however.
Explaining the causes of population change has frustrated
statisticians for years. Many factors influence fertility, including
urbanization and literacy. Subsistence farmers view children as cheap
labor and a source of wealth; peoples who remember a high infant
mortality rate have more children; uneducated people do not plan the
size of families, and impoverished people cannot afford the means to
do so.
Having found no academic research that specifically measures the
impact of religious belief on fertility controlling for these factors,
I have done some calculations of my own using a cross section of data
for 174 countries. My analysis, preliminary as it is, supports the
conclusion that religious belief strongly influences fertility after
controlling for wealth and education. There are lies, damned lies, and
statistics, of course, and results of this kind should be viewed with
caution. Still, this analysis passes the first cut of tests for
rigor.
A visual comparison of population growth rates and degree of religious
belief shows strong correlation. The World Christian Database
(www.worldchristiandatabase.org) reports the percentage of individuals
declaring themselves "atheists" or "non-religious" in more than 200
countries, as well as economic and demographic data. [3] Using the
2005 population projections published in February by the United
Nations Economic and Social Council, I compared a number of measures
of population growth to the data for religious belief. The results are
shown below.
All the countries with high population growth rates (vertical scale)
have an extremely low percentage of non-religious people (horizontal
scale), while all the countries with extremely low population growth
rates have a high percentage of non-religious people. There are of
course some countries (e.g., France and the UK) with population growth
rates above zero despite a very large proportion of non-religious.
Very high fertility of immigrant populations, though, helps explain
why the French and British numbers deviate from the trend. Although a
sample of 83 countries permits a great deal of differentiation, the
overlap of cultures due to immigration necessarily will lead to some
anomalies. [4]
More important is that a scatter-plot of population growth vs
percentage of non-religious people, of course, is a naive comparison,
ignoring other factors that influence fertility. One could (and
demographers do) spend a lifetime fitting different pieces of data
into the jigsaw puzzle to explain the variation in population growth
across countries. This effort is a sketch rather than a finished
picture, of course, and I have been able to test only a few
variables.
By far the strongest predictor of population growth rates is adult
literacy. That is not surprising, as illiterate people are likely to
let nature take its course without any consideration for the
implications of family size. Nonetheless, religious belief (measured
by the log of the percentage of non-religious in the population)
remains a strong predictor even when adult literacy is introduced as a
control variable (at the nearly 100% confidence level). Wealth, that
is, per capita GDP, shows no significance in the equation.
explains 68% of the variation in population growth across countries.
More important than the degree of explanatory power (r squared ) is
the significance of each predictor, that is, the probability that the
true coefficient is not zero. Both religious belief and literacy show
significance at close to the 100% confidence level. The results change
little if the 50, or 100, or 150 largest countries are included in the
sample.
Underlying the demographic crisis of the industrial world, I believe,
is a spiritual crisis. If the above analysis has any merit, the issue
is not wealth, but rather the desire of men to continue to inhabit
this planet. Secular ideologies - socialism, positivism, and so forth
- promised a world free of bigotry and hatred, and an unending vista
of peace and prosperity. Humankind, however, has vomited up these
ideologies. Secular Europe and radical Islam in that sense represent
two sides of the same coin: both have rejected the secular order, the
latter through open battle, and the former through fatal resignation.
Demographic analysis can help strip secularism of its progressive mask
and reveal the death's-head underneath. The analysis shown above may
be the work of an amateur, but it will serve a good purpose if it
provokes the professionals to do a more thorough job.
Notes
[1] Faith, fertility and American dominance, Sep 8, 2004.
[2] See Why Europe chooses extinction, Apr 8, 2003.
[3] Generously, the World Christian Database allows some free
downloads although the full dataset requires a paid subscription.
[4] A case could be made that a certain threshold of secularism must
be reached in order to influence population growth. Using the
logarithm of the percentage of non-religious approximates this
threshold effect, but this is a way of linearizing a relationship that
evidently is not linear to begin with. A LOGIT model might permit
better specification than linear regression.
(Copyright 2005 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us for information on sales, syndication and republishing.)
----------
BM
.

User: "Tough Tonto"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 04:20:07 PM
"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180204089.947602.233070@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

BM

Are you celibate? If you are, do you really believe your
opinions concerning sexual intercourse, reproduction, and
populative circumeubriation count?
.

User: "AT1"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 02:47:56 PM
Here's a simpler explanation; religious people breed not for love of
children, but for the intent to outbreed those that disagree with them.
Sound absurd? Yep, just like the notion that atheism and secularism will
lead to the death of society. Here's an interesting concept for a study:
"Religion overpopulates the planet, leading to depleted resources and the
extinction of the human species."
--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net
"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180204089.947602.233070@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

Nice to see someone approaching this issue with stats:

the graphs and tables are in the original article:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/IB21Ag01.html

Death by secularism: Some statistical evidence
By Spengler

Infertility is killing off the secular world, a number of writers have
observed, including Phillip Longman, whose 1994 book The Empty Cradle
I reviewed last year. [1] In the former Soviet empire, where atheism
reigned as state policy for generations, the United Nations forecasts
extreme declines in population by 2050, ranging from 22% for the
Russian Federation to nearly 50% for the Ukraine. Secular western
Europe will lose 4% to 12% of its population, while the population of
the churchgoing United States continues to grow. Is secularism at
fault? The numbers do not suggest otherwise.

Humankind cannot abide the terror of mortality without the promise of
immortality, I have argue in the past. [2] In the absence of religion
human society sinks into depressive torpor. Secular society therefore
is an oxymoron, for the death of religion leads quickly enough to the
death of society itself.

These are impressionistic rather than rigorous arguments, however.
Explaining the causes of population change has frustrated
statisticians for years. Many factors influence fertility, including
urbanization and literacy. Subsistence farmers view children as cheap
labor and a source of wealth; peoples who remember a high infant
mortality rate have more children; uneducated people do not plan the
size of families, and impoverished people cannot afford the means to
do so.

Having found no academic research that specifically measures the
impact of religious belief on fertility controlling for these factors,
I have done some calculations of my own using a cross section of data
for 174 countries. My analysis, preliminary as it is, supports the
conclusion that religious belief strongly influences fertility after
controlling for wealth and education. There are lies, damned lies, and
statistics, of course, and results of this kind should be viewed with
caution. Still, this analysis passes the first cut of tests for
rigor.

A visual comparison of population growth rates and degree of religious
belief shows strong correlation. The World Christian Database
(www.worldchristiandatabase.org) reports the percentage of individuals
declaring themselves "atheists" or "non-religious" in more than 200
countries, as well as economic and demographic data. [3] Using the
2005 population projections published in February by the United
Nations Economic and Social Council, I compared a number of measures
of population growth to the data for religious belief. The results are
shown below.

All the countries with high population growth rates (vertical scale)
have an extremely low percentage of non-religious people (horizontal
scale), while all the countries with extremely low population growth
rates have a high percentage of non-religious people. There are of
course some countries (e.g., France and the UK) with population growth
rates above zero despite a very large proportion of non-religious.
Very high fertility of immigrant populations, though, helps explain
why the French and British numbers deviate from the trend. Although a
sample of 83 countries permits a great deal of differentiation, the
overlap of cultures due to immigration necessarily will lead to some
anomalies. [4]

More important is that a scatter-plot of population growth vs
percentage of non-religious people, of course, is a naive comparison,
ignoring other factors that influence fertility. One could (and
demographers do) spend a lifetime fitting different pieces of data
into the jigsaw puzzle to explain the variation in population growth
across countries. This effort is a sketch rather than a finished
picture, of course, and I have been able to test only a few
variables.

By far the strongest predictor of population growth rates is adult
literacy. That is not surprising, as illiterate people are likely to
let nature take its course without any consideration for the
implications of family size. Nonetheless, religious belief (measured
by the log of the percentage of non-religious in the population)
remains a strong predictor even when adult literacy is introduced as a
control variable (at the nearly 100% confidence level). Wealth, that
is, per capita GDP, shows no significance in the equation.

explains 68% of the variation in population growth across countries.
More important than the degree of explanatory power (r squared ) is
the significance of each predictor, that is, the probability that the
true coefficient is not zero. Both religious belief and literacy show
significance at close to the 100% confidence level. The results change
little if the 50, or 100, or 150 largest countries are included in the
sample.

Underlying the demographic crisis of the industrial world, I believe,
is a spiritual crisis. If the above analysis has any merit, the issue
is not wealth, but rather the desire of men to continue to inhabit
this planet. Secular ideologies - socialism, positivism, and so forth
- promised a world free of bigotry and hatred, and an unending vista
of peace and prosperity. Humankind, however, has vomited up these
ideologies. Secular Europe and radical Islam in that sense represent
two sides of the same coin: both have rejected the secular order, the
latter through open battle, and the former through fatal resignation.

Demographic analysis can help strip secularism of its progressive mask
and reveal the death's-head underneath. The analysis shown above may
be the work of an amateur, but it will serve a good purpose if it
provokes the professionals to do a more thorough job.

Notes

[1] Faith, fertility and American dominance, Sep 8, 2004.

[2] See Why Europe chooses extinction, Apr 8, 2003.

[3] Generously, the World Christian Database allows some free
downloads although the full dataset requires a paid subscription.

[4] A case could be made that a certain threshold of secularism must
be reached in order to influence population growth. Using the
logarithm of the percentage of non-religious approximates this
threshold effect, but this is a way of linearizing a relationship that
evidently is not linear to begin with. A LOGIT model might permit
better specification than linear regression.

(Copyright 2005 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us for information on sales, syndication and republishing.)

----------

BM

.
User: "L. Raymond"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 03:47:11 PM
AT1 wrote:

Here's a simpler explanation; religious people breed not for love of
children, but for the intent to outbreed those that disagree with them.

Sound absurd? Yep, just like the notion that atheism and secularism will
lead to the death of society. Here's an interesting concept for a study:
"Religion overpopulates the planet, leading to depleted resources and the
extinction of the human species."

Not quite. Poverty is the root of the problem, of which religion is just
a symptom. Poor societies tend to be less educated and more religious.
In such places, women aren't valued as people but as breeders, servants
and, when there's dowry involved, as status symbols. There's abundant
evidence that when women have control over their own lives, they don't
choose to breed themselves to death.
--
L. Raymond
.
User: "AT1"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 04:00:03 PM
Agreed, completely. It was just a silly point I was making; one on par with
the study.
--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:ucok4motutfh$.1mq4wafe0qmda$.dlg@40tude.net...

AT1 wrote:

Here's a simpler explanation; religious people breed not for love of
children, but for the intent to outbreed those that disagree with them.

Sound absurd? Yep, just like the notion that atheism and secularism will
lead to the death of society. Here's an interesting concept for a study:
"Religion overpopulates the planet, leading to depleted resources and the
extinction of the human species."


Not quite. Poverty is the root of the problem, of which religion is just
a symptom. Poor societies tend to be less educated and more religious.
In such places, women aren't valued as people but as breeders, servants
and, when there's dowry involved, as status symbols. There's abundant
evidence that when women have control over their own lives, they don't
choose to breed themselves to death.


--
L. Raymond

.
User: "Geoff"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 04:36:15 PM
AT1 wrote:

Agreed, completely. It was just a silly point I was making; one on
par with the study.

Trying to not get thrown by the top-posting. It would be nice if you posted
properlike though. Sorry, it's a pet peeve.
I don't think your point was silly at all. There is manifest evidence from
Evangelical Christians to Hindu fundamentalists and every religion in
between that this is at least a general undercurrent among the faithful. If
you can't kill them all, you need to outbreed them.
.
User: "AT1"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 04:53:25 PM
Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to have to
scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments. If everyone
posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick arrowing-down would
allow all comments/threads to be read in a much more convenient manner.
It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just opposite of yours. :)
--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:s9adnW5_YdrNNcXbnZ2dnUVZ_qWvnZ2d@giganews.com...

AT1 wrote:

Agreed, completely. It was just a silly point I was making; one on
par with the study.


Trying to not get thrown by the top-posting. It would be nice if you
posted properlike though. Sorry, it's a pet peeve.

I don't think your point was silly at all. There is manifest evidence from
Evangelical Christians to Hindu fundamentalists and every religion in
between that this is at least a general undercurrent among the faithful.
If you can't kill them all, you need to outbreed them.

.
User: "Roy Culley"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 05:57:12 PM
<o_-dnWuYmNvLMcXbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> writes:


Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to
have to scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments.
If everyone posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick
arrowing-down would allow all comments/threads to be read in a much
more convenient manner. It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just
opposite of yours. :)

You just show your naivete. Use google and learn why top posting
is considered bad netiquette.
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
.
User: "captain."

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 29 May 2007 01:07:51 AM
"Roy Culley" <mrloy@bambot.nodomain.none> wrote in message
news:8jqmi4-3jg.ln1@dog.did.it...

<o_-dnWuYmNvLMcXbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> writes:


Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to
have to scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments.
If everyone posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick
arrowing-down would allow all comments/threads to be read in a much
more convenient manner. It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just
opposite of yours. :)


You just show your naivete. Use google and learn why top posting
is considered bad netiquette.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

hardly. people spamming about jews, etc... are far more annoying.
p.s. notice that i bottom-posted just 4 u !
.

User: "AT1"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 07:12:46 PM
Roy Culley wrote:

<o_-dnWuYmNvLMcXbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> writes:

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to
have to scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments.
If everyone posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick
arrowing-down would allow all comments/threads to be read in a much
more convenient manner. It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just
opposite of yours. :)


You just show your naivete. Use google and learn why top posting
is considered bad netiquette.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

Naivete is irrelevant; since I am aware of the argument for both side;
but fine, I'll conform. However, top-posting is still a preference of
mine. My reasoning is that if everything is top-posted, and a thread is
being read it order, it is easier to view a top-posted comment then
arrow-down to the next message and see the response immediately.
However, this point isn't worth debating; since there are clearly better
issues worth arguing about.
--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net
.
User: "Roy Culley"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 07:23:40 PM
<4658CCFE.7090503@godblows.net>,
AT1 <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> writes:

Roy Culley wrote:

<o_-dnWuYmNvLMcXbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> writes:

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to
have to scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments.
If everyone posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick
arrowing-down would allow all comments/threads to be read in a
much more convenient manner. It's a pet-peeve of mine as well;
just opposite of yours. :)


You just show your naivete. Use google and learn why top posting
is considered bad netiquette.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?


Naivete is irrelevant; since I am aware of the argument for both
side; but fine, I'll conform.

Thank you.

However, top-posting is still a preference of mine. My reasoning is
that if everything is top-posted, and a thread is being read it
order, it is easier to view a top-posted comment then arrow-down to
the next message and see the response immediately. However, this
point isn't worth debating; since there are clearly better issues
worth arguing about.

Here's another reason, posts do get lost, followups may arrive before
the post being replied to turns up on a news server. Hence you cannot
guarantee that the post you are replying to has been seen. Adding
your remarks following the context you are replying to means it is
easy to follow the thread regardless of whether the reader has seen
the previous post.
.
User: "AT1"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 07:28:27 PM
Roy Culley wrote:

<4658CCFE.7090503@godblows.net>,
AT1 <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> writes:

Roy Culley wrote:

<o_-dnWuYmNvLMcXbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> writes:

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to
have to scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments.
If everyone posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick
arrowing-down would allow all comments/threads to be read in a
much more convenient manner. It's a pet-peeve of mine as well;
just opposite of yours. :)

You just show your naivete. Use google and learn why top posting
is considered bad netiquette.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

Naivete is irrelevant; since I am aware of the argument for both
side; but fine, I'll conform.


Thank you.

However, top-posting is still a preference of mine. My reasoning is
that if everything is top-posted, and a thread is being read it
order, it is easier to view a top-posted comment then arrow-down to
the next message and see the response immediately. However, this
point isn't worth debating; since there are clearly better issues
worth arguing about.


Here's another reason, posts do get lost, followups may arrive before
the post being replied to turns up on a news server. Hence you cannot
guarantee that the post you are replying to has been seen. Adding
your remarks following the context you are replying to means it is
easy to follow the thread regardless of whether the reader has seen
the previous post.

Fair enough.
--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net
.


User: "Geoff"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 27 May 2007 11:01:45 AM
AT1 wrote:


However, this point isn't worth debating; since there are clearly
better issues worth arguing about.

I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition. It wasn't even the meat of my
post which I will reproduce faithfully here:
"I don't think your point was silly at all. There is manifest evidence from
Evangelical Christians to Hindu fundamentalists and every religion in
between that this is at least a general undercurrent among the faithful. If
you can't kill them all, you need to outbreed them."
.
User: "Jim07D7"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 27 May 2007 01:09:18 PM
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> said:

AT1 wrote:


However, this point isn't worth debating; since there are clearly
better issues worth arguing about.


I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition. It wasn't even the meat of my
post which I will reproduce faithfully here:

"I don't think your point was silly at all. There is manifest evidence from
Evangelical Christians to Hindu fundamentalists and every religion in
between that this is at least a general undercurrent among the faithful. If
you can't kill them all, you need to outbreed them."

You can also out-immigrate them. Bring in more people having your
beliefs.
.

User: "John Baker"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 27 May 2007 02:07:55 PM
On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:01:45 -0400, "Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com>
wrote:

AT1 wrote:


However, this point isn't worth debating; since there are clearly
better issues worth arguing about.


I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition....

It wasn't even the meat of my
post which I will reproduce faithfully here:

"I don't think your point was silly at all. There is manifest evidence from
Evangelical Christians to Hindu fundamentalists and every religion in
between that this is at least a general undercurrent among the faithful. If
you can't kill them all, you need to outbreed them."

.




User: "Geoff"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 27 May 2007 10:59:13 AM
AT1 wrote:

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to
have to scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments. If
everyone posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick
arrowing-down would allow all comments/threads to be read in a much
more convenient manner. It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just
opposite of yours. :)

Properlike doesn't just mean posting on the bottom. I hate scrolling through
an 8kb message, too, just to see a glib one-line response. Properlike also
means trimming away only those parts of the post that are germane to your
reply.
.

User: "Jim07D7"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 05:59:29 PM
I prefer to...
"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> said:

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to have to
scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments. If everyone
posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick arrowing-down would
allow all comments/threads to be read in a much more convenient manner.
It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just opposite of yours. :)

.... follow convention, in this case.
.
User: "AT1"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 06:08:56 PM
I prefer not to; but my apologies if you find it disruptive.
--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net
"Jim07D7" <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:cseh53pc7uopp0a8p3c138mcteo47m83hp@4ax.com...

I prefer to...

"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> said:

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to have to
scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments. If everyone
posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick arrowing-down would
allow all comments/threads to be read in a much more convenient manner.
It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just opposite of yours. :)


... follow convention, in this case.

.

User: "AT1"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 07:08:29 PM
Jim07D7 wrote:

I prefer to...

"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> said:

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to have to
scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments. If everyone
posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick arrowing-down would
allow all comments/threads to be read in a much more convenient manner.
It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just opposite of yours. :)


... follow convention, in this case.

Fine, I'll conform.
--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net
.


User: "captain."

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 05:47:38 PM
agreed. nothing wrong with top-posting.
"AT1" <notyourbusiness@godblows.net> wrote in message
news:o_-dnWuYmNvLMcXbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@comcast.com...

Posting is a matter of opinion. I find it rather inconvenient to have to
scoll to the bottom of a post to find the latest comments. If everyone
posted their reply at the top of the message, a quick arrowing-down would
allow all comments/threads to be read in a much more convenient manner.
It's a pet-peeve of mine as well; just opposite of yours. :)

--
AT1
http://www.godblows.net


"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:s9adnW5_YdrNNcXbnZ2dnUVZ_qWvnZ2d@giganews.com...

AT1 wrote:

Agreed, completely. It was just a silly point I was making; one on
par with the study.


Trying to not get thrown by the top-posting. It would be nice if you
posted properlike though. Sorry, it's a pet peeve.

I don't think your point was silly at all. There is manifest evidence
from Evangelical Christians to Hindu fundamentalists and every religion
in between that this is at least a general undercurrent among the
faithful. If you can't kill them all, you need to outbreed them.



.
User: "Brian Westley"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 27 May 2007 04:07:34 AM
"captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net> writes:

agreed. nothing wrong with top-posting.

A: Because it's hard to read.
Q: Why is top-posting discouraged?
.
User: "Paris Hilton"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 27 May 2007 07:49:30 AM
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:135iiimctc7141d@corp.supernews.com...

"captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net> writes:

agreed. nothing wrong with top-posting.


A: Because it's hard to read.

Q: Why is top-posting discouraged?

..it with problem a have not do Australians
.

User: "captain."

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 29 May 2007 01:06:44 AM
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:135iiimctc7141d@corp.supernews.com...

"captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net> writes:

agreed. nothing wrong with top-posting.


A: Because it's hard to read.

Q: Why is top-posting discouraged?

i don't find it hard to read. some people just like to nit-pick.
.
User: "Jim07D7"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 29 May 2007 09:31:25 AM
Some of the software will put your signature at the bottom if you use
one. It can be confusing to see the message at the top and the
signature at the bottom.
"captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net> said:


"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:135iiimctc7141d@corp.supernews.com...

"captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net> writes:

agreed. nothing wrong with top-posting.


A: Because it's hard to read.

Q: Why is top-posting discouraged?


i don't find it hard to read. some people just like to nit-pick.

.









User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 06 Jun 2007 04:41:28 PM
On 26 May 2007 11:28:09 -0700, The Black Monk <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote
in alt.atheism

Nice to see someone approaching this issue with stats:

the graphs and tables are in the original article:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/IB21Ag01.html

Death by secularism: Some statistical evidence
By Spengler

Infertility is killing off the secular world, a number of writers have
observed, including Phillip Longman, whose 1994 book The Empty Cradle
I reviewed last year. [1] In the former Soviet empire, where atheism
reigned as state policy for generations, the United Nations forecasts
extreme declines in population by 2050, ranging from 22% for the
Russian Federation to nearly 50% for the Ukraine. Secular western
Europe will lose 4% to 12% of its population, while the population of
the churchgoing United States continues to grow. Is secularism at
fault? The numbers do not suggest otherwise.

Humankind cannot abide the terror of mortality without the promise of
immortality, I have argue in the past.

Spengler doesn't know his ***** from a hole in the ground. I'm so sorry
cowardly fucks like you haven't the courage to face the fact you are
going to die. That's it. Period. End of story. Game over.
[snip excrement unread]
--
Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is
unable to believe things for which there is
no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of
a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
.

User: "captain."

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 05:44:59 PM
population decline is a good thing BM as long as it is not unstoppable. our
overcrowded planet would be better off with half as many people as it has
now. the thing is, even with some populations in decline, the population
curve is presently getting more steep.
our "increasingly secular" world is still out of control.
"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180204089.947602.233070@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

Nice to see someone approaching this issue with stats:

the graphs and tables are in the original article:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/IB21Ag01.html

Death by secularism: Some statistical evidence
By Spengler

Infertility is killing off the secular world, a number of writers have
observed, including Phillip Longman, whose 1994 book The Empty Cradle
I reviewed last year. [1] In the former Soviet empire, where atheism
reigned as state policy for generations, the United Nations forecasts
extreme declines in population by 2050, ranging from 22% for the
Russian Federation to nearly 50% for the Ukraine. Secular western
Europe will lose 4% to 12% of its population, while the population of
the churchgoing United States continues to grow. Is secularism at
fault? The numbers do not suggest otherwise.

Humankind cannot abide the terror of mortality without the promise of
immortality, I have argue in the past. [2] In the absence of religion
human society sinks into depressive torpor. Secular society therefore
is an oxymoron, for the death of religion leads quickly enough to the
death of society itself.

These are impressionistic rather than rigorous arguments, however.
Explaining the causes of population change has frustrated
statisticians for years. Many factors influence fertility, including
urbanization and literacy. Subsistence farmers view children as cheap
labor and a source of wealth; peoples who remember a high infant
mortality rate have more children; uneducated people do not plan the
size of families, and impoverished people cannot afford the means to
do so.

Having found no academic research that specifically measures the
impact of religious belief on fertility controlling for these factors,
I have done some calculations of my own using a cross section of data
for 174 countries. My analysis, preliminary as it is, supports the
conclusion that religious belief strongly influences fertility after
controlling for wealth and education. There are lies, damned lies, and
statistics, of course, and results of this kind should be viewed with
caution. Still, this analysis passes the first cut of tests for
rigor.

A visual comparison of population growth rates and degree of religious
belief shows strong correlation. The World Christian Database
(www.worldchristiandatabase.org) reports the percentage of individuals
declaring themselves "atheists" or "non-religious" in more than 200
countries, as well as economic and demographic data. [3] Using the
2005 population projections published in February by the United
Nations Economic and Social Council, I compared a number of measures
of population growth to the data for religious belief. The results are
shown below.

All the countries with high population growth rates (vertical scale)
have an extremely low percentage of non-religious people (horizontal
scale), while all the countries with extremely low population growth
rates have a high percentage of non-religious people. There are of
course some countries (e.g., France and the UK) with population growth
rates above zero despite a very large proportion of non-religious.
Very high fertility of immigrant populations, though, helps explain
why the French and British numbers deviate from the trend. Although a
sample of 83 countries permits a great deal of differentiation, the
overlap of cultures due to immigration necessarily will lead to some
anomalies. [4]

More important is that a scatter-plot of population growth vs
percentage of non-religious people, of course, is a naive comparison,
ignoring other factors that influence fertility. One could (and
demographers do) spend a lifetime fitting different pieces of data
into the jigsaw puzzle to explain the variation in population growth
across countries. This effort is a sketch rather than a finished
picture, of course, and I have been able to test only a few
variables.

By far the strongest predictor of population growth rates is adult
literacy. That is not surprising, as illiterate people are likely to
let nature take its course without any consideration for the
implications of family size. Nonetheless, religious belief (measured
by the log of the percentage of non-religious in the population)
remains a strong predictor even when adult literacy is introduced as a
control variable (at the nearly 100% confidence level). Wealth, that
is, per capita GDP, shows no significance in the equation.

explains 68% of the variation in population growth across countries.
More important than the degree of explanatory power (r squared ) is
the significance of each predictor, that is, the probability that the
true coefficient is not zero. Both religious belief and literacy show
significance at close to the 100% confidence level. The results change
little if the 50, or 100, or 150 largest countries are included in the
sample.

Underlying the demographic crisis of the industrial world, I believe,
is a spiritual crisis. If the above analysis has any merit, the issue
is not wealth, but rather the desire of men to continue to inhabit
this planet. Secular ideologies - socialism, positivism, and so forth
- promised a world free of bigotry and hatred, and an unending vista
of peace and prosperity. Humankind, however, has vomited up these
ideologies. Secular Europe and radical Islam in that sense represent
two sides of the same coin: both have rejected the secular order, the
latter through open battle, and the former through fatal resignation.

Demographic analysis can help strip secularism of its progressive mask
and reveal the death's-head underneath. The analysis shown above may
be the work of an amateur, but it will serve a good purpose if it
provokes the professionals to do a more thorough job.

Notes

[1] Faith, fertility and American dominance, Sep 8, 2004.

[2] See Why Europe chooses extinction, Apr 8, 2003.

[3] Generously, the World Christian Database allows some free
downloads although the full dataset requires a paid subscription.

[4] A case could be made that a certain threshold of secularism must
be reached in order to influence population growth. Using the
logarithm of the percentage of non-religious approximates this
threshold effect, but this is a way of linearizing a relationship that
evidently is not linear to begin with. A LOGIT model might permit
better specification than linear regression.

(Copyright 2005 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us for information on sales, syndication and republishing.)

----------

BM

.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 26 May 2007 06:43:21 PM
On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:44:59 GMT, "captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net>
wrote:

population decline is a good thing BM as long as it is not unstoppable. our
overcrowded planet would be better off with half as many people as it has
now. the thing is, even with some populations in decline, the population
curve is presently getting more steep.

Not to worry. Global warming is about to reduce the population to
more reasonable levels.
.
User: "captain."

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 29 May 2007 01:09:29 AM
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:tfhh53tsr0kkr8dgvr46n0uiutih0g7v1p@4ax.com...

On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:44:59 GMT, "captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net>
wrote:

population decline is a good thing BM as long as it is not unstoppable.
our
overcrowded planet would be better off with half as many people as it has
now. the thing is, even with some populations in decline, the population
curve is presently getting more steep.


Not to worry. Global warming is about to reduce the population to
more reasonable levels.

hey! someone actually responded to BM's subject instead of whining about
top-posting. nice!
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 29 May 2007 07:43:01 AM
On Tue, 29 May 2007 06:09:29 GMT, "captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:tfhh53tsr0kkr8dgvr46n0uiutih0g7v1p@4ax.com...

On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:44:59 GMT, "captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net>
wrote:

population decline is a good thing BM as long as it is not unstoppable.
our
overcrowded planet would be better off with half as many people as it has
now. the thing is, even with some populations in decline, the population
curve is presently getting more steep.


Not to worry. Global warming is about to reduce the population to
more reasonable levels.


hey! someone actually responded to BM's subject instead of whining about
top-posting. nice!

hey! someone commented about top-posting instead of actually
responding to the subject.
.
User: "captain."

Title: Re: Death by Secularism 30 May 2007 09:33:38 PM
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:4s7o53td0t18j1cs0ug2lgbcn8a3i1vn64@4ax.com...

On Tue, 29 May 2007 06:09:29 GMT, "captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:tfhh53tsr0kkr8dgvr46n0uiutih0g7v1p@4ax.com...

On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:44:59 GMT, "captain." <spammersmustdie@now.net>
wrote:

population decline is a good thing BM as long as it is not unstoppable.
our
overcrowded planet would be better off with half as many people as it
has
now. the thing is, even with some populations in decline, the population
curve is presently getting more steep.


Not to worry. Global warming is about to reduce the population to
more reasonable levels.


hey! someone actually responded to BM's subject instead of whining about
top-posting. nice!


hey! someone commented about top-posting instead of actually
responding to the subject.

i already gave my response in a previous reply. forgive me if i choose not
to repost it just because you missed it the first time.
.






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