| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Neil Kelsey" |
| Date: |
23 May 2007 10:39:41 AM |
| Object: |
Deconversion Stories |
I'm reading through the deconversion stories on the Richard Dawkins
website. A lot of them are not really deconversions, the people were
more or less atheist to begin with, but are interesting anyway. But
some of them are, and I really liked this one, if only for the
beautiful line "If God does not exist, I am free.":
Dear Mr. Dawkins,
I would like to thank you for writing your book The God Delusion, and
letting me get a glimpse of what the "other side," i.e. non-
Christians, believe and how they look at the world. I come from a very
religious background that includes growing up in a cult, converting to
Eastern Orthodox Christianity, attending Wheaton College (an
Evangelical school) and a Catholic University, and attending an
Evangelical Christian church until a few months ago. My father is a
big proponent of the Intelligent Design movement and has even co-
edited a book with ID "scientist" William Dembski and is planning on
doing another book with him. My father also is the executive editor of
a Christian magazine. I had worked for him as an intern for several
summers and bought into the Intelligent Design theory. (Interestingly
enough, my sister and her husband work for Chicago's Field Museum. She
introduced me to Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which helped
open my mind up a little more.)
A few months ago, my husband, who had started reading some atheist
literature and had stopped going to church with me, brought your book
home from the bookstore. He was afraid to show it to me because he
thought I would be mad at him for buying it. I had tried to discourage
him from reading the atheist literature because it questioned God
himself and, being a Christian, you are not allowed to question God.
(Who wants to get the kind of response Job got?)
Anyway, when I looked at your book, I thought, "well, what the heck,
it would be interesting to see what other people think about
religion." Boy, was I right! My husband started reading the first
chapters to me and I got so ineterested in reading it, I read it
during the day while the kids were asleep and finished it before my
husband did. But, "interesting" is not the right word. "Mind-blowing"
is more accurate. I remember laying in bed at night trying to process
all of the new ideas to which I had been exposed and I suddenly had
the thought, "If God does not exist, I am free." And, I just felt a
huge burden lifted off my shoulders because I had spent so much of my
life trying to make my religion mesh with reality, and this was a
constant source of inner conflict. Although I am reluctant to call
myself an atheist, at least I can say I no longer believe in the
Christian God. I want to teach my kids a morality that is not driven
by guilt and a deep capacity for critical thinking. Thank you for
opening my mind. I know some people think that you are just "preaching
to the choir," but it isn't true. I was definitely not part of the
choir when I first cracked open your book.
Sincerely,
Mary Grovesteen
http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner,page3
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
25 May 2007 12:51:19 AM |
|
|
In article <1179934781.838818.273450@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
Neil Kelsey <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm reading through the deconversion stories on the Richard Dawkins
website. A lot of them are not really deconversions, the people were
more or less atheist to begin with, but are interesting anyway. But
some of them are, and I really liked this one, if only for the
beautiful line "If God does not exist, I am free.":
Dear Mr. Dawkins,
I would like to thank you for writing your book The God Delusion, and
letting me get a glimpse of what the "other side," i.e. non-
Christians, believe and how they look at the world. I come from a very
religious background that includes growing up in a cult, converting to
Eastern Orthodox Christianity, attending Wheaton College (an
Evangelical school) and a Catholic University, and attending an
Evangelical Christian church until a few months ago. My father is a
big proponent of the Intelligent Design movement and has even co-
edited a book with ID "scientist" William Dembski and is planning on
doing another book with him. My father also is the executive editor of
a Christian magazine. I had worked for him as an intern for several
summers and bought into the Intelligent Design theory. (Interestingly
enough, my sister and her husband work for Chicago's Field Museum. She
introduced me to Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which helped
open my mind up a little more.)
A few months ago, my husband, who had started reading some atheist
literature and had stopped going to church with me, brought your book
home from the bookstore. He was afraid to show it to me because he
thought I would be mad at him for buying it. I had tried to discourage
him from reading the atheist literature because it questioned God
himself and, being a Christian, you are not allowed to question God.
(Who wants to get the kind of response Job got?)
Anyway, when I looked at your book, I thought, "well, what the heck,
it would be interesting to see what other people think about
religion." Boy, was I right! My husband started reading the first
chapters to me and I got so ineterested in reading it, I read it
during the day while the kids were asleep and finished it before my
husband did. But, "interesting" is not the right word. "Mind-blowing"
is more accurate. I remember laying in bed at night trying to process
all of the new ideas to which I had been exposed and I suddenly had
the thought, "If God does not exist, I am free." And, I just felt a
huge burden lifted off my shoulders because I had spent so much of my
life trying to make my religion mesh with reality, and this was a
constant source of inner conflict. Although I am reluctant to call
myself an atheist, at least I can say I no longer believe in the
Christian God. I want to teach my kids a morality that is not driven
by guilt and a deep capacity for critical thinking. Thank you for
opening my mind. I know some people think that you are just "preaching
to the choir," but it isn't true. I was definitely not part of the
choir when I first cracked open your book.
Sincerely,
Mary Grovesteen
http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner,page3
Great post! Good for Dawkins! Good for Mary Grovesteen too!
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
23 May 2007 02:51:15 PM |
|
|
Neil Kelsey opined :
I'm reading through the deconversion stories on the Richard Dawkins
website. A lot of them are not really deconversions, the people were
more or less atheist to begin with, but are interesting anyway. But
some of them are, and I really liked this one, if only for the
beautiful line "If God does not exist, I am free.":
Dear Mr. Dawkins,
I would like to thank you for writing your book The God Delusion, and
letting me get a glimpse of what the "other side," i.e. non-
Christians, believe and how they look at the world. I come from a very
religious background that includes growing up in a cult, converting to
Eastern Orthodox Christianity, attending Wheaton College (an
Evangelical school) and a Catholic University, and attending an
Evangelical Christian church until a few months ago. My father is a
big proponent of the Intelligent Design movement and has even co-
edited a book with ID "scientist" William Dembski and is planning on
doing another book with him. My father also is the executive editor of
a Christian magazine. I had worked for him as an intern for several
summers and bought into the Intelligent Design theory. (Interestingly
enough, my sister and her husband work for Chicago's Field Museum. She
introduced me to Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which helped
open my mind up a little more.)
A few months ago, my husband, who had started reading some atheist
literature and had stopped going to church with me, brought your book
home from the bookstore. He was afraid to show it to me because he
thought I would be mad at him for buying it. I had tried to discourage
him from reading the atheist literature because it questioned God
himself and, being a Christian, you are not allowed to question God.
(Who wants to get the kind of response Job got?)
Anyway, when I looked at your book, I thought, "well, what the heck,
it would be interesting to see what other people think about
religion." Boy, was I right! My husband started reading the first
chapters to me and I got so ineterested in reading it, I read it
during the day while the kids were asleep and finished it before my
husband did. But, "interesting" is not the right word. "Mind-blowing"
is more accurate. I remember laying in bed at night trying to process
all of the new ideas to which I had been exposed and I suddenly had
the thought, "If God does not exist, I am free." And, I just felt a
huge burden lifted off my shoulders because I had spent so much of my
life trying to make my religion mesh with reality, and this was a
constant source of inner conflict. Although I am reluctant to call
myself an atheist, at least I can say I no longer believe in the
Christian God. I want to teach my kids a morality that is not driven
by guilt and a deep capacity for critical thinking. Thank you for
opening my mind. I know some people think that you are just "preaching
to the choir," but it isn't true. I was definitely not part of the
choir when I first cracked open your book.
Sincerely,
Mary Grovesteen
http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner,page3
Well-written .... and so true.
Pang
--
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
23 May 2007 04:52:54 PM |
|
|
On May 23, 12:51 pm, Pangur Ban <Whistleblo...@att.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey opined :
I'm reading through the deconversion stories on the Richard Dawkins
website. A lot of them are not really deconversions, the people were
more or less atheist to begin with, but are interesting anyway. But
some of them are, and I really liked this one, if only for the
beautiful line "If God does not exist, I am free.":
Dear Mr. Dawkins,
I would like to thank you for writing your book The God Delusion, and
letting me get a glimpse of what the "other side," i.e. non-
Christians, believe and how they look at the world. I come from a very
religious background that includes growing up in a cult, converting to
Eastern Orthodox Christianity, attending Wheaton College (an
Evangelical school) and a Catholic University, and attending an
Evangelical Christian church until a few months ago. My father is a
big proponent of the Intelligent Design movement and has even co-
edited a book with ID "scientist" William Dembski and is planning on
doing another book with him. My father also is the executive editor of
a Christian magazine. I had worked for him as an intern for several
summers and bought into the Intelligent Design theory. (Interestingly
enough, my sister and her husband work for Chicago's Field Museum. She
introduced me to Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which helped
open my mind up a little more.)
A few months ago, my husband, who had started reading some atheist
literature and had stopped going to church with me, brought your book
home from the bookstore. He was afraid to show it to me because he
thought I would be mad at him for buying it. I had tried to discourage
him from reading the atheist literature because it questioned God
himself and, being a Christian, you are not allowed to question God.
(Who wants to get the kind of response Job got?)
Anyway, when I looked at your book, I thought, "well, what the heck,
it would be interesting to see what other people think about
religion." Boy, was I right! My husband started reading the first
chapters to me and I got so ineterested in reading it, I read it
during the day while the kids were asleep and finished it before my
husband did. But, "interesting" is not the right word. "Mind-blowing"
is more accurate. I remember laying in bed at night trying to process
all of the new ideas to which I had been exposed and I suddenly had
the thought, "If God does not exist, I am free." And, I just felt a
huge burden lifted off my shoulders because I had spent so much of my
life trying to make my religion mesh with reality, and this was a
constant source of inner conflict. Although I am reluctant to call
myself an atheist, at least I can say I no longer believe in the
Christian God. I want to teach my kids a morality that is not driven
by guilt and a deep capacity for critical thinking. Thank you for
opening my mind. I know some people think that you are just "preaching
to the choir," but it isn't true. I was definitely not part of the
choir when I first cracked open your book.
Sincerely,
Mary Grovesteen
http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner,page3
Well-written .... and so true.
Pang
How are you doing with your newfound atheism? You sounded mad as hell
to start out (I had to chuckle a bit, sorry...didn't blame you for
your feelings though. I got really pissed too when I realized I
couldn't be my naturally trusting self. Oh well, I lived, and so will
you). I'm so happy for you but I don't know if that's the right
sentiment? How does it feel now?
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
23 May 2007 07:36:33 PM |
|
|
Neil Kelsey wrote on 5/23/2007 :
On May 23, 12:51 pm, Pangur Ban <Whistleblo...@att.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey opined :
I'm reading through the deconversion stories on the Richard Dawkins
website. A lot of them are not really deconversions, the people were
more or less atheist to begin with, but are interesting anyway. But
some of them are, and I really liked this one, if only for the
beautiful line "If God does not exist, I am free.":
Dear Mr. Dawkins,
I would like to thank you for writing your book The God Delusion, and
letting me get a glimpse of what the "other side," i.e. non-
Christians, believe and how they look at the world. I come from a very
religious background that includes growing up in a cult, converting to
Eastern Orthodox Christianity, attending Wheaton College (an
Evangelical school) and a Catholic University, and attending an
Evangelical Christian church until a few months ago. My father is a
big proponent of the Intelligent Design movement and has even co-
edited a book with ID "scientist" William Dembski and is planning on
doing another book with him. My father also is the executive editor of
a Christian magazine. I had worked for him as an intern for several
summers and bought into the Intelligent Design theory. (Interestingly
enough, my sister and her husband work for Chicago's Field Museum. She
introduced me to Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which helped
open my mind up a little more.)
A few months ago, my husband, who had started reading some atheist
literature and had stopped going to church with me, brought your book
home from the bookstore. He was afraid to show it to me because he
thought I would be mad at him for buying it. I had tried to discourage
him from reading the atheist literature because it questioned God
himself and, being a Christian, you are not allowed to question God.
(Who wants to get the kind of response Job got?)
Anyway, when I looked at your book, I thought, "well, what the heck,
it would be interesting to see what other people think about
religion." Boy, was I right! My husband started reading the first
chapters to me and I got so ineterested in reading it, I read it
during the day while the kids were asleep and finished it before my
husband did. But, "interesting" is not the right word. "Mind-blowing"
is more accurate. I remember laying in bed at night trying to process
all of the new ideas to which I had been exposed and I suddenly had
the thought, "If God does not exist, I am free." And, I just felt a
huge burden lifted off my shoulders because I had spent so much of my
life trying to make my religion mesh with reality, and this was a
constant source of inner conflict. Although I am reluctant to call
myself an atheist, at least I can say I no longer believe in the
Christian God. I want to teach my kids a morality that is not driven
by guilt and a deep capacity for critical thinking. Thank you for
opening my mind. I know some people think that you are just "preaching
to the choir," but it isn't true. I was definitely not part of the
choir when I first cracked open your book.
Sincerely,
Mary Grovesteen
http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner,page3
Well-written .... and so true.
Pang
How are you doing with your newfound atheism? You sounded mad as hell
to start out (I had to chuckle a bit, sorry...didn't blame you for
your feelings though. I got really pissed too when I realized I
couldn't be my naturally trusting self. Oh well, I lived, and so will
you). I'm so happy for you but I don't know if that's the right
sentiment? How does it feel now?
You asked... *smile* and I do tell the truth.
I am doing better; I still get a tad angry when someone tells me "God
will take care of ....". That's the only anger I feel.
Now, more truth. I grieve for one of two important (to me) things I
"lost" with my newfound atheism. One was/is such a strong belief; it
is badly shaken - but not quite gone. The other is gone, and missed,
but was not a "vital" part of what I once believed.
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
....ummm... "related". Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin; look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals. The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals. The grandeur of the Milky
way is not gone, but I feel no kinship with it. It is a nice display
of chemicals and physics - nothing more. I now see no "life" where I
once felt surrounded by it. I feel no kinship for chemicals and
physics. It is the loss of a "feel-good" belief ... *shrug*
I grieve - and deeply - for the loss of belief that I will be reunited
after death with those I have loved. If there is no "energy", there is
no chance for a reunion. The total sense of isolation caused by the
loss of those two beliefs :-( ... I guess the grief will pass as almost
all griefs do.
Has atheism made me happy? No. More realistic? Yes.
Pang - who still has to clean the Winter Holidays decorations out of
the closet to give away
--
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
23 May 2007 08:46:51 PM |
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|
On May 23, 5:36 pm, Pangur Ban <Whistleblo...@att.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote on 5/23/2007 :
On May 23, 12:51 pm, Pangur Ban <Whistleblo...@att.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey opined :
I'm reading through the deconversion stories on the Richard Dawkins
website. A lot of them are not really deconversions, the people were
more or less atheist to begin with, but are interesting anyway. But
some of them are, and I really liked this one, if only for the
beautiful line "If God does not exist, I am free.":
Dear Mr. Dawkins,
I would like to thank you for writing your book The God Delusion, and
letting me get a glimpse of what the "other side," i.e. non-
Christians, believe and how they look at the world. I come from a very
religious background that includes growing up in a cult, converting to
Eastern Orthodox Christianity, attending Wheaton College (an
Evangelical school) and a Catholic University, and attending an
Evangelical Christian church until a few months ago. My father is a
big proponent of the Intelligent Design movement and has even co-
edited a book with ID "scientist" William Dembski and is planning on
doing another book with him. My father also is the executive editor of
a Christian magazine. I had worked for him as an intern for several
summers and bought into the Intelligent Design theory. (Interestingly
enough, my sister and her husband work for Chicago's Field Museum. She
introduced me to Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which helped
open my mind up a little more.)
A few months ago, my husband, who had started reading some atheist
literature and had stopped going to church with me, brought your book
home from the bookstore. He was afraid to show it to me because he
thought I would be mad at him for buying it. I had tried to discourage
him from reading the atheist literature because it questioned God
himself and, being a Christian, you are not allowed to question God.
(Who wants to get the kind of response Job got?)
Anyway, when I looked at your book, I thought, "well, what the heck,
it would be interesting to see what other people think about
religion." Boy, was I right! My husband started reading the first
chapters to me and I got so ineterested in reading it, I read it
during the day while the kids were asleep and finished it before my
husband did. But, "interesting" is not the right word. "Mind-blowing"
is more accurate. I remember laying in bed at night trying to process
all of the new ideas to which I had been exposed and I suddenly had
the thought, "If God does not exist, I am free." And, I just felt a
huge burden lifted off my shoulders because I had spent so much of my
life trying to make my religion mesh with reality, and this was a
constant source of inner conflict. Although I am reluctant to call
myself an atheist, at least I can say I no longer believe in the
Christian God. I want to teach my kids a morality that is not driven
by guilt and a deep capacity for critical thinking. Thank you for
opening my mind. I know some people think that you are just "preaching
to the choir," but it isn't true. I was definitely not part of the
choir when I first cracked open your book.
Sincerely,
Mary Grovesteen
http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner,page3
Well-written .... and so true.
Pang
How are you doing with your newfound atheism? You sounded mad as hell
to start out (I had to chuckle a bit, sorry...didn't blame you for
your feelings though. I got really pissed too when I realized I
couldn't be my naturally trusting self. Oh well, I lived, and so will
you). I'm so happy for you but I don't know if that's the right
sentiment? How does it feel now?
You asked... *smile* and I do tell the truth.
I am doing better; I still get a tad angry when someone tells me "God
will take care of ....". That's the only anger I feel.
Now, more truth. I grieve for one of two important (to me) things I
"lost" with my newfound atheism. One was/is such a strong belief; it
is badly shaken - but not quite gone. The other is gone, and missed,
but was not a "vital" part of what I once believed.
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals.
That, or "The moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!"
The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
The grandeur of the Milky
way is not gone, but I feel no kinship with it. It is a nice display
of chemicals and physics - nothing more.
And nothing less! You're reminding me of Eeyore. That's supposed to
make you laugh.
I now see no "life" where I
once felt surrounded by it. I feel no kinship for chemicals and
physics. It is the loss of a "feel-good" belief ... *shrug*
I grieve - and deeply - for the loss of belief that I will be reunited
after death with those I have loved.
THAT sentiment I share with you. I've got a couple of very sweet
daughters, and not only do I feel a deep twinge when I think about
being apart from them for eternity, but that at some point they will
go through the ends of THEIR lives, which really really gives me a
weird feeling of premature sorrow. But, then I remind myself that all
stages of life really are amazing in the first place, and that I can't
waste precious time with them wallowing in self pity. I'm sure they
would rather they were born despite having to go through the process
of dying than never to have existed at all, so I don't feel bad. Then
I ground them.*
* joking- I had no idea what grounding was...and now they are young
women, so it doesn't matter anyway.
If there is no "energy", there is
no chance for a reunion. The total sense of isolation caused by the
loss of those two beliefs :-( ... I guess the grief will pass as almost
all griefs do.
Has atheism made me happy? No. More realistic? Yes.
Do you feel any sense of relief? I always thought having to prop up
theism would be quite draining mentally, at least for you smart
people. Duke doesn't seem to have that problem.
Pang - who still has to clean the Winter Holidays decorations out of
the closet to give away
--
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.-
Oh! Let me try! I'm guessing that's Spanish?
"Do not imitate inarticulate knowledge?"
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
23 May 2007 11:14:42 PM |
|
|
Neil Kelsey asserted :
On May 23, 5:36 pm, Pangur Ban <Whistleblo...@att.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote on 5/23/2007 :
On May 23, 12:51 pm, Pangur Ban <Whistleblo...@att.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey opined :
I'm reading through the deconversion stories on the Richard Dawkins
website. A lot of them are not really deconversions, the people were
more or less atheist to begin with, but are interesting anyway. But
some of them are, and I really liked this one, if only for the
beautiful line "If God does not exist, I am free.":
Dear Mr. Dawkins,
I would like to thank you for writing your book The God Delusion, and
letting me get a glimpse of what the "other side," i.e. non-
Christians, believe and how they look at the world. I come from a very
religious background that includes growing up in a cult, converting to
Eastern Orthodox Christianity, attending Wheaton College (an
Evangelical school) and a Catholic University, and attending an
Evangelical Christian church until a few months ago. My father is a
big proponent of the Intelligent Design movement and has even co-
edited a book with ID "scientist" William Dembski and is planning on
doing another book with him. My father also is the executive editor of
a Christian magazine. I had worked for him as an intern for several
summers and bought into the Intelligent Design theory. (Interestingly
enough, my sister and her husband work for Chicago's Field Museum. She
introduced me to Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which helped
open my mind up a little more.)
A few months ago, my husband, who had started reading some atheist
literature and had stopped going to church with me, brought your book
home from the bookstore. He was afraid to show it to me because he
thought I would be mad at him for buying it. I had tried to discourage
him from reading the atheist literature because it questioned God
himself and, being a Christian, you are not allowed to question God.
(Who wants to get the kind of response Job got?)
Anyway, when I looked at your book, I thought, "well, what the heck,
it would be interesting to see what other people think about
religion." Boy, was I right! My husband started reading the first
chapters to me and I got so ineterested in reading it, I read it
during the day while the kids were asleep and finished it before my
husband did. But, "interesting" is not the right word. "Mind-blowing"
is more accurate. I remember laying in bed at night trying to process
all of the new ideas to which I had been exposed and I suddenly had
the thought, "If God does not exist, I am free." And, I just felt a
huge burden lifted off my shoulders because I had spent so much of my
life trying to make my religion mesh with reality, and this was a
constant source of inner conflict. Although I am reluctant to call
myself an atheist, at least I can say I no longer believe in the
Christian God. I want to teach my kids a morality that is not driven
by guilt and a deep capacity for critical thinking. Thank you for
opening my mind. I know some people think that you are just "preaching
to the choir," but it isn't true. I was definitely not part of the
choir when I first cracked open your book.
Sincerely,
Mary Grovesteen
http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner,page3
Well-written .... and so true.
Pang
How are you doing with your newfound atheism? You sounded mad as hell
to start out (I had to chuckle a bit, sorry...didn't blame you for
your feelings though. I got really pissed too when I realized I
couldn't be my naturally trusting self. Oh well, I lived, and so will
you). I'm so happy for you but I don't know if that's the right
sentiment? How does it feel now?
You asked... *smile* and I do tell the truth.
I am doing better; I still get a tad angry when someone tells me "God
will take care of ....". That's the only anger I feel.
Now, more truth. I grieve for one of two important (to me) things I
"lost" with my newfound atheism. One was/is such a strong belief; it
is badly shaken - but not quite gone. The other is gone, and missed,
but was not a "vital" part of what I once believed.
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical
brew... so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
.... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals.
That, or "The moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!"
The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me
the ... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a
uniting relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the
One. A river and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared
something; the sun, the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit
bounding across my path - we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree
has its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept
its reality.
The grandeur of the Milky
way is not gone, but I feel no kinship with it. It is a nice display
of chemicals and physics - nothing more.
And nothing less! You're reminding me of Eeyore. That's supposed to
make you laugh.
Well, first I had to google Eeyore. (Deprived childhood - I've never
read the Pooh books.)
"He is a pessimistic, gloomy, old, depressed stuffed donkey who is a
friend of Winnie-the-Pooh." Wikipedia
Pessimistic - yes. Gloomy - yes Old - oh, yeah. Depressed - yes,
with anti-depressants and tranquilizers now major factors of my
existence. Stuff - ummm... stuffy, maybe. :-)
I now see no "life" where I
once felt surrounded by it. I feel no kinship for chemicals and
physics. It is the loss of a "feel-good" belief ... *shrug*
I grieve - and deeply - for the loss of belief that I will be reunited
after death with those I have loved.
THAT sentiment I share with you. I've got a couple of very sweet
daughters, and not only do I feel a deep twinge when I think about
being apart from them for eternity, but that at some point they will
go through the ends of THEIR lives, which really really gives me a
weird feeling of premature sorrow. But, then I remind myself that all
stages of life really are amazing in the first place, and that I can't
waste precious time with them wallowing in self pity. I'm sure they
would rather they were born despite having to go through the process
of dying than never to have existed at all, so I don't feel bad. Then
I ground them.*
* joking- I had no idea what grounding was...and now they are young
women, so it doesn't matter anyway.
As I have no family, none - perhaps I feel the isolation more acutely?
I can see that having children and the possibility of grandchildren and
so on is a form of "life after death". When you die, a part of you -
your contribution to your children's DNA - will continue ...
If there is no "energy", there is
no chance for a reunion. The total sense of isolation caused by the
loss of those two beliefs :-( ... I guess the grief will pass as almost
all griefs do.
Has atheism made me happy? No. More realistic? Yes.
Do you feel any sense of relief?
No. None. Only loss.
Had I been a christian, I might then feel relief for the freedom from
the strictures and sheer nuttiness of its beliefs.
I always thought having to prop up
theism would be quite draining mentally, at least for you smart
people. Duke doesn't seem to have that problem.
No, my simple beliefs were not draining.
Pang - who still has to clean the Winter Holidays decorations out of
the closet to give away
--
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.-
Oh! Let me try! I'm guessing that's Spanish?
Latin - parent language of Spanish ...
"Do not imitate inarticulate knowledge?"
Don't wish ill for your enemy but plan it.
Pang
--
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
26 May 2007 10:17:47 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical brew...
so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals.
That, or "The moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!"
The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me the
... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a uniting
relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the One. A river
and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared something; the sun,
the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit bounding across my path -
we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree has
its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept its
reality.
snip
Don't forget we have a very close relationship with everything around us, all
of us, the trees, animals, water, the very air we breathe, the ground under
our feet were once a part of a giant star, larger than our sun. We share the
same genesis, we are born of stars, our atoms cooked up to the peak of
perfection and then served up to the universe.
"Now THAT'S a spicy meatball!"
I would call that one hell of a connection.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
³Not to mention hemorrhoids are trick of the devil! It just couldn't be true
we're still adapting to walking upright. That just can't be the explanation!
God, after all, makes perfect assholes...³ - Mark K. Bilbo
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
26 May 2007 07:16:35 PM |
|
|
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical brew...
so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals.
That, or "The moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!"
The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me the
... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a uniting
relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the One. A
river
and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared something; the sun,
the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit bounding across my path -
we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree has
its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept its
reality.
snip
Don't forget we have a very close relationship with everything around us, all
of us, the trees, animals, water, the very air we breathe, the ground under
our feet were once a part of a giant star, larger than our sun. We share the
same genesis, we are born of stars, our atoms cooked up to the peak of
perfection and then served up to the universe.
"Now THAT'S a spicy meatball!"
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
Pang
--
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
27 May 2007 01:02:00 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:16:35 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.d4487d754f318b38.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical
brew...
so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals.
That, or "The moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!"
The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me
the
... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a
uniting
relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the One. A
river
and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared something; the
sun,
the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit bounding across my path
-
we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree has
its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept its
reality.
snip
Don't forget we have a very close relationship with everything around us,
all
of us, the trees, animals, water, the very air we breathe, the ground under
our feet were once a part of a giant star, larger than our sun. We share
the
same genesis, we are born of stars, our atoms cooked up to the peak of
perfection and then served up to the universe.
"Now THAT'S a spicy meatball!"
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
All but the "spicy meatball," that was from an old TV ad from the 60's.
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
The atoms are cooked until they are exactly what they are, carbon is carbon,
oxygen is oxygen, etc. None of them are half-baked. Now we may be half baked
but our atoms are perfectly baked. ;-)
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
I can't think of a better connection than that our very atoms that make up
our bodies were once cooked up inside a star. (Or stars.) Everything in our
solar system, other than the hydrogen and some of the helium, was cooked up,
that (or those) star(s) were our mother, gravity was our father.
Some of the atoms making us up were "born" next to atoms that make up our
sun, others are a part of Jupiter, others a part of Mars, still others make
up comets. Atoms make up what we are, and we are a part of everything that is
our solar system. It may be tenuous and deep in the past, but the connection
is there, never to be broken until the atoms themselves disappear. If that
were to happen it will be so far in the future that the last 13 plus billion
years will seem like a few seconds.
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now and
think about connections.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
ÒMr. Worf, set phasers on "***** You" and fire at will.Ò - Doc Smartass
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
28 May 2007 08:34:53 AM |
|
|
Harry F. Leopold expressed precisely :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:16:35 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.d4487d754f318b38.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical
brew...
so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals. That, or "The
moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!" The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me
the
... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a
uniting
relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the One. A
river
and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared something; the
sun,
the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit bounding across my path
-
we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree has
its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept its
reality.
snip
Don't forget we have a very close relationship with everything around us,
all
of us, the trees, animals, water, the very air we breathe, the ground under
our feet were once a part of a giant star, larger than our sun. We share
the
same genesis, we are born of stars, our atoms cooked up to the peak of
perfection and then served up to the universe.
"Now THAT'S a spicy meatball!"
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
All but the "spicy meatball," that was from an old TV ad from the 60's.
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
The atoms are cooked until they are exactly what they are, carbon is carbon,
oxygen is oxygen, etc. None of them are half-baked. Now we may be half baked
but our atoms are perfectly baked. ;-)
:-)
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
I can't think of a better connection than that our very atoms that make up
our bodies were once cooked up inside a star. (Or stars.) Everything in our
solar system, other than the hydrogen and some of the helium, was cooked up,
that (or those) star(s) were our mother, gravity was our father.
Some of the atoms making us up were "born" next to atoms that make up our
sun, others are a part of Jupiter, others a part of Mars, still others make
up comets. Atoms make up what we are, and we are a part of everything that is
our solar system. It may be tenuous and deep in the past, but the connection
is there, never to be broken until the atoms themselves disappear. If that
were to happen it will be so far in the future that the last 13 plus billion
years will seem like a few seconds.
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now and
think about connections.
If you don't mind, I am going to print the above and take it to a
friend with whom I have been discussing connections.
Pang
--
Tamdiu discendum est, quamdiu vivas.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
28 May 2007 12:13:12 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 May 2007 08:34:53 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.e1c67d758472d292.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold expressed precisely :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:16:35 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.d4487d754f318b38.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
snip a bit to save bandwidth.
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
All but the "spicy meatball," that was from an old TV ad from the 60's.
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
The atoms are cooked until they are exactly what they are, carbon is carbon,
oxygen is oxygen, etc. None of them are half-baked. Now we may be half
baked but our atoms are perfectly baked. ;-)
-)
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
I can't think of a better connection than that our very atoms that make up
our bodies were once cooked up inside a star. (Or stars.) Everything in our
solar system, other than the hydrogen and some of the helium, was cooked
up, that (or those) star(s) were our mother, gravity was our father.
Some of the atoms making us up were "born" next to atoms that make up our
sun, others are a part of Jupiter, others a part of Mars, still others make
up comets. Atoms make up what we are, and we are a part of everything that
is our solar system. It may be tenuous and deep in the past, but the
connection
is there, never to be broken until the atoms themselves disappear. If that
were to happen it will be so far in the future that the last 13 plus
billion years will seem like a few seconds.
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now
and think about connections.
If you don't mind, I am going to print the above and take it to a
friend with whom I have been discussing connections.
Be my guest. If good conversation comes of it, great. Let me know if you come
up with anything interesting.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
³He's so dumb he moves his lips when someone ELSE is reading.³-Doc Smartass
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
30 May 2007 10:22:53 AM |
|
|
Harry F. Leopold wrote :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 08:34:53 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.e1c67d758472d292.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold expressed precisely :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:16:35 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.d4487d754f318b38.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
snip a bit to save bandwidth.
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
All but the "spicy meatball," that was from an old TV ad from the 60's.
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
The atoms are cooked until they are exactly what they are, carbon is
carbon,
oxygen is oxygen, etc. None of them are half-baked. Now we may be half
baked but our atoms are perfectly baked. ;-)
-)
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
I can't think of a better connection than that our very atoms that make up
our bodies were once cooked up inside a star. (Or stars.) Everything in our
solar system, other than the hydrogen and some of the helium, was cooked
up, that (or those) star(s) were our mother, gravity was our father.
Some of the atoms making us up were "born" next to atoms that make up our
sun, others are a part of Jupiter, others a part of Mars, still others make
up comets. Atoms make up what we are, and we are a part of everything that
is our solar system. It may be tenuous and deep in the past, but the
connection
is there, never to be broken until the atoms themselves disappear. If that
were to happen it will be so far in the future that the last 13 plus
billion years will seem like a few seconds.
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now
and think about connections.
If you don't mind, I am going to print the above and take it to a
friend with whom I have been discussing connections.
Be my guest. If good conversation comes of it, great. Let me know if you come
up with anything interesting.
Will do ..... :-)
--
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
30 May 2007 10:14:40 AM |
|
|
Harry F. Leopold squeezed out this idea :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:16:35 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.d4487d754f318b38.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical
brew...
so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals. That, or "The
moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!" The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me
the
... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a
uniting
relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the One. A
river
and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared something; the
sun,
the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit bounding across my path
-
we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree has
its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept its
reality.
snip
Don't forget we have a very close relationship with everything around us,
all
of us, the trees, animals, water, the very air we breathe, the ground under
our feet were once a part of a giant star, larger than our sun. We share
the
same genesis, we are born of stars, our atoms cooked up to the peak of
perfection and then served up to the universe.
"Now THAT'S a spicy meatball!"
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
All but the "spicy meatball," that was from an old TV ad from the 60's.
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
The atoms are cooked until they are exactly what they are, carbon is carbon,
oxygen is oxygen, etc. None of them are half-baked. Now we may be half baked
but our atoms are perfectly baked. ;-)
Humpffff - I know some humans who don't even qualify as half-baked ...
more like steak tartare.
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
I can't think of a better connection than that our very atoms that make up
our bodies were once cooked up inside a star. (Or stars.) Everything in our
solar system, other than the hydrogen and some of the helium, was cooked up,
that (or those) star(s) were our mother, gravity was our father.
Some of the atoms making us up were "born" next to atoms that make up our
sun, others are a part of Jupiter, others a part of Mars, still others make
up comets. Atoms make up what we are, and we are a part of everything that is
our solar system. It may be tenuous and deep in the past, but the connection
is there, never to be broken until the atoms themselves disappear. If that
were to happen it will be so far in the future that the last 13 plus billion
years will seem like a few seconds.
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now and
think about connections.
"Tenuous" .... yes. Beautifully written - again. :-)
--
Quam bene vivas refert, non quam diu.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
27 May 2007 03:36:54 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 May 2007 01:02:00 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27E8908000686D0F0284530@news.central.cox.net>
On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:16:35 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.d4487d754f318b38.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical
brew...
so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals.
That, or "The moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!"
The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me
the
... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a
uniting
relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the One. A
river
and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared something; the
sun,
the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit bounding across my path
-
we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree has
its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept its
reality.
snip
Don't forget we have a very close relationship with everything around us,
all
of us, the trees, animals, water, the very air we breathe, the ground under
our feet were once a part of a giant star, larger than our sun. We share
the
same genesis, we are born of stars, our atoms cooked up to the peak of
perfection and then served up to the universe.
"Now THAT'S a spicy meatball!"
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
All but the "spicy meatball," that was from an old TV ad from the 60's.
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
The atoms are cooked until they are exactly what they are, carbon is carbon,
oxygen is oxygen, etc. None of them are half-baked. Now we may be half baked
but our atoms are perfectly baked. ;-)
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
I can't think of a better connection than that our very atoms that make up
our bodies were once cooked up inside a star. (Or stars.) Everything in our
solar system, other than the hydrogen and some of the helium, was cooked up,
that (or those) star(s) were our mother, gravity was our father.
Some of the atoms making us up were "born" next to atoms that make up our
sun, others are a part of Jupiter, others a part of Mars, still others make
up comets. Atoms make up what we are, and we are a part of everything that is
our solar system. It may be tenuous and deep in the past, but the connection
is there, never to be broken until the atoms themselves disappear. If that
were to happen it will be so far in the future that the last 13 plus billion
years will seem like a few seconds.
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now and
think about connections.
Hear, hear, Sir!
I'll drink to that!
With ethanol brewed from star-stuff, Mr. Bond!
(Exploded, not stirred)
Chin-chin.
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
27 May 2007 12:55:02 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 May 2007 03:48:54 -0500, Michael Gray wrote
(in article <2mgi531ve2ocf54l8hl2ut1hssbc3tj0q8@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 May 2007 01:02:00 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27E8908000686D0F0284530@news.central.cox.net>
On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:16:35 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.d4487d754f318b38.73271@att.net>):
Harry F. Leopold presented the following :
On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:14:42 -0500, Pangur Ban wrote
(in article <mn.bd367d75fecca50a.73271@att.net>):
snip
I told the group once (or twice) lol that I believed a small
spark/spirit/energy of the Divine One existed in everything - right
down to the essentials of the atoms. Obviously, I no longer believe
that. I miss it as I looked upon everyone and everything as being
...ummm... "related".Look at a lizard, and see kin; look at a tree
and see kin;
I already do, considering that we all share common ancestors, which is
a beautiful thing. Have you read The Ancestor's Tale? And then, I see
us as "kin" with the anumate AND the inanimate, since the evolution of
life is really a branch of the evolution of matter.
I know that all life comes from the primordial soup.... the chemical
brew...
so we are related in that way .... but that is a distant and
... impersonal relationship.
look at the blaze of the stars ... the grandeur of the
Milky Way... and I am kin through that energy (in which I believed). I
still care (in the sense of not destroying them if possible)for plants
and animals ... but no longer feel the kinship I did for the rocks I
collect. The moon is just a cold satellite - chemicals.
That, or "The moon is a cold satellite! Chemicals!"
The same for
my mountains and volcanoes.... chemicals.
Sorry, you're making me laugh again. What have you got against
chemicals?
*smile* I have nothing against chemicals - they just don't have for me
the
... arggghh ... I can't find the words. When I believed in that
spark/energy, I felt it was an immediate intimate relationship... a
uniting
relationship ... a connection to all as all shared a bit of the One. A
river
and I shared something; a sandstone cliff and I shared something; the
sun,
the moon, the sand beneath my feet, the jackrabbit bounding across my
path
-
we were all intimately connected.
I don't share chemicals with anything ... I have my chemicals; a tree
has
its; a hummer has its. We share nothing. I miss that, but accept its
reality.
snip
Don't forget we have a very close relationship with everything around us,
all
of us, the trees, animals, water, the very air we breathe, the ground
under
our feet were once a part of a giant star, larger than our sun. We share
the
same genesis, we are born of stars, our atoms cooked up to the peak of
perfection and then served up to the universe.
"Now THAT'S a spicy meatball!"
I would call that one hell of a connection.
May I assume those are your own words??? Beautifully said!
All but the "spicy meatball," that was from an old TV ad from the 60's.
"...our atoms cooked up to the peak of perfection...". I am again
going to assume. I am assuming that does not mean that humanity is the
peak of perfection, but that the atoms which comprise us are.
The atoms are cooked until they are exactly what they are, carbon is
carbon,
oxygen is oxygen, etc. None of them are half-baked. Now we may be half
baked
but our atoms are perfectly baked. ;-)
It is indeed a connection - not as "intimate" as the one in which I
once believed... but much better than no connection at all.
I can't think of a better connection than that our very atoms that make up
our bodies were once cooked up inside a star. (Or stars.) Everything in our
solar system, other than the hydrogen and some of the helium, was cooked
up,
that (or those) star(s) were our mother, gravity was our father.
Some of the atoms making us up were "born" next to atoms that make up our
sun, others are a part of Jupiter, others a part of Mars, still others make
up comets. Atoms make up what we are, and we are a part of everything that
is
our solar system. It may be tenuous and deep in the past, but the
connection
is there, never to be broken until the atoms themselves disappear. If that
were to happen it will be so far in the future that the last 13 plus
billion
years will seem like a few seconds.
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now
and
think about connections.
Hear, hear, Sir!
I'll drink to that!
With ethanol brewed from star-stuff, Mr. Bond!
(Exploded, not stirred)
Chin-chin.
Ah, you want a Super Nova.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
CEO Black, Inc.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
27 May 2007 10:25:32 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:55:02 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27F30260009425EF0284530@news.central.cox.net>
On Sun, 27 May 2007 03:48:54 -0500, Michael Gray wrote
(in article <2mgi531ve2ocf54l8hl2ut1hssbc3tj0q8@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 May 2007 01:02:00 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27E8908000686D0F0284530@news.central.cox.net>
:
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now
and
think about connections.
Hear, hear, Sir!
I'll drink to that!
With ethanol brewed from star-stuff, Mr. Bond!
(Exploded, not stirred)
Chin-chin.
Ah, you want a Super Nova.
And a Hubble Hi-Ball for rocket fuel.
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
28 May 2007 05:05:28 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:37:32 -0500, Michael Gray wrote
(in article <crik5354uero8k7ethuocp7nr276mk5tdq@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:55:02 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27F30260009425EF0284530@news.central.cox.net>
On Sun, 27 May 2007 03:48:54 -0500, Michael Gray wrote
(in article <2mgi531ve2ocf54l8hl2ut1hssbc3tj0q8@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 May 2007 01:02:00 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27E8908000686D0F0284530@news.central.cox.net>
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now
and
think about connections.
Hear, hear, Sir!
I'll drink to that!
With ethanol brewed from star-stuff, Mr. Bond!
(Exploded, not stirred)
Chin-chin.
Ah, you want a Super Nova.
And a Hubble Hi-Ball for rocket fuel.
I don't, I want Tom Swift's Electric Rocket, powered from a solar power
satellite encircling Mercury and beaming the power as microwaves directly to
my ion engine.
Mars in a week, Saturn in less then two.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
A baseball bat, with the words "Clue Stick" impressed into the wood. Anyone
smacked upside the head with it will have a useful personal epiphany, and a
blinding headache. A sheet of paper accompanying the bat indicates that other
models are also available, such as the "Ugly Stick." - Warehouse 23
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
28 May 2007 05:14:48 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 May 2007 05:05:28 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C28013980007894FF0284530@news.central.cox.net>
On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:37:32 -0500, Michael Gray wrote
(in article <crik5354uero8k7ethuocp7nr276mk5tdq@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:55:02 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27F30260009425EF0284530@news.central.cox.net>
On Sun, 27 May 2007 03:48:54 -0500, Michael Gray wrote
(in article <2mgi531ve2ocf54l8hl2ut1hssbc3tj0q8@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 May 2007 01:02:00 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
- Refer: <0001HW.C27E8908000686D0F0284530@news.central.cox.net>
I like knowing that the atoms that make me up will have a very long and
interesting future. Maybe somewhere along the line they will be a part of
some thinking being a few trillion years from now who will do as I am now
and
think about connections.
Hear, hear, Sir!
I'll drink to that!
With ethanol brewed from star-stuff, Mr. Bond!
(Exploded, not stirred)
Chin-chin.
Ah, you want a Super Nova.
And a Hubble Hi-Ball for rocket fuel.
I don't, I want Tom Swift's Electric Rocket, powered from a solar power
satellite encircling Mercury and beaming the power as microwaves directly to
my ion engine.
Mars in a week, Saturn in less then two.
How long is it to Uranus?
--
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
23 May 2007 09:40:08 PM |
|
|
On 23 May 2007 18:46:51 -0700, Neil Kelsey <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Do you feel any sense of relief? I always thought having to prop up
theism would be quite draining mentally, at least for you smart
people. Duke doesn't seem to have that problem.
Duke only "props up" theism by being a prop. Like you use a brick to
prop up a table with a short leg. (Apologies to any brick I've
offended by comparing you to Duke.)
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.-
Oh! Let me try! I'm guessing that's Spanish?
"Do not imitate inarticulate knowledge?"
"Don't wish ill for your enemies, plan it."
BTW, Pang, never having been a theist of any stripe, I can't offer any
words of wisdom, but you know I wish you the best, and soon.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
23 May 2007 11:16:44 PM |
|
|
Al Klein uncoiled the following on Wednesday :
On 23 May 2007 18:46:51 -0700, Neil Kelsey <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Do you feel any sense of relief? I always thought having to prop up
theism would be quite draining mentally, at least for you smart
people. Duke doesn't seem to have that problem.
Duke only "props up" theism by being a prop. Like you use a brick to
prop up a table with a short leg. (Apologies to any brick I've
offended by comparing you to Duke.)
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.-
Oh! Let me try! I'm guessing that's Spanish?
"Do not imitate inarticulate knowledge?"
"Don't wish ill for your enemies, plan it."
BTW, Pang, never having been a theist of any stripe, I can't offer any
words of wisdom, but you know I wish you the best, and soon.
My thanks. Truly.
--
Quam bene vivas refert, non quam diu.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
24 May 2007 02:59:53 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:16:44 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.bd387d750f3dadf3.73271@att.net>
Al Klein uncoiled the following on Wednesday :
On 23 May 2007 18:46:51 -0700, Neil Kelsey <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Do you feel any sense of relief? I always thought having to prop up
theism would be quite draining mentally, at least for you smart
people. Duke doesn't seem to have that problem.
Duke only "props up" theism by being a prop. Like you use a brick to
prop up a table with a short leg. (Apologies to any brick I've
offended by comparing you to Duke.)
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.-
Oh! Let me try! I'm guessing that's Spanish?
"Do not imitate inarticulate knowledge?"
"Don't wish ill for your enemies, plan it."
BTW, Pang, never having been a theist of any stripe, I can't offer any
words of wisdom, but you know I wish you the best, and soon.
My thanks. Truly.
Time wounds all heels!
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Deconversion Stories |
24 May 2007 04:15:39 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray expounded:
On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:16:44 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.bd387d750f3dadf3.73271@att.net>
Al Klein uncoiled the following on Wednesday :
On 23 May 2007 18:46:51 -0700, Neil Kelsey <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Do you feel any sense of relief? I always thought having to prop up
theism would be quite draining mentally, at least for you smart
people. Duke doesn't seem to have that problem.
Duke only "props up" theism by being a prop. Like you use a brick to
prop up a table with a short leg. (Apologies to any brick I've
offended by comparing you to Duke.)
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.-
Oh! Let me try! I'm guessing that's Spanish?
"Do not imitate inarticulate | | | | | | | | |
