| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"SReeseMe" |
| Date: |
27 Oct 2003 09:22:31 PM |
| Object: |
Deism??? |
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
thanks
-Stephen
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 02:26:13 PM |
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"SReeseMe" <sreeseme@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031027222231.22540.00000147@mb-m18.aol.com...
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism?
Deist is an areligious person, who is running for a public office.
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
29 Oct 2003 10:53:14 AM |
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(SReeseMe) wrote in message news:<20031027222231.22540.00000147@mb-m18.aol.com>...
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
thanks
-Stephen
The best thing you could do would be to ask a deist. Reading this over may help:
http://www.deism.com/deism_vs.htm
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
27 Oct 2003 10:40:18 PM |
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On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, (SReeseMe) wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism?
Belief in a SUpreme Creator Being that doesnt interefere in the day to
day running of the universe.
First cause - but doesnt send his only begotten son doesnt part the
red sea doesnt do much of anything.
Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Depends who you ask.
I would say its not Theism - which is belief in a person interactive
kind of God - the Deists God is more like what you or I might call
"mother nature".
Other people say "a gods a god and if you believe in a god even one as
non god-like as the Deist god, then you are a theist."
There is no absolute right answer on this one.
It's a matter of personal taste.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
27 Oct 2003 09:56:02 PM |
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On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, (SReeseMe) wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism can best be described as the idea that an unspecified deity
created the Universe, but has not, and will not, intervene in it since
then.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 06:05:36 PM |
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:56:02 -0500, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, (SReeseMe) wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism can best be described as the idea that an unspecified deity
created the Universe, but has not, and will not, intervene in it since
then.
That checks with my own look ups in various dictionaries, Raven.
Theism takes that god as the master, who demands loyalty and worship.
There are different wordings in different dictionaries, varying with
time of publication. I like to look in older dictionaries too, I can
see how the language evolves over time.
A little of my own spin:
The idea is the same: Deist - Yeah there's a god, a high force, and it
gave us this earth to work with. Theist: That god demands loyalty and
worship, and it makes the rules.
Don't get confused, many theocrats point out the fact that many of our
founding fathers were Deists blurring it's distinction from theism, to
imply that the constitution was written solely by god-fearing,
worshipping christians, therefore this is a christian nation. Anyway,
the founding fathers must have agreed to leave religious language out
of the Constitution, they couldn't have forgotten it. They left it up
to the individual, not the Government.
Hmmmm, it just dawned on me....we can range from atheist, to deist, to
theist to fanatic: similar to ranging from atheist, to agnostic, to
religious, to zealot.
Whaddya think?
drift
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 02:07:55 AM |
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On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, (SReeseMe) wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism: belief in a God which created the world and then left it
to its own devices. (Brainfried explains more) As far as I know,
there is no other, differing, use of the word.
By the most common definition of Theism, 'belief in a God', Deism
is a kind of Theism. However, some people use 'Theism' in a more
restricted sense: 'belief in a Christian type God', which is
incomputable with Deism.
( So many our words have multiple, incompatible meanings:
Atheist: 'No belief in God' or 'Belief in no God'
Agnostic: 'Belief that no one knows' or 'I do not know'
Obviously, the God who threw us from the Tower of Babel
is still hard at work today - even if he does not exist. :)
In practice atheists have more in common with deists than with
most theists, but your fundy friends are talking nonsense.
I almost envy how simple and uncomplicated things are to many
fundies. There are only 2 options: go to Hell or go to Heaven.
Many of them cannot really grasp that there people who don't
share their odd beliefs.
If we are Hell bound, we are all the same. We are Atheistic,
Satan worshiping Pagans - and probably in league with Mohammed.
If you can gently present any facts to them, it may help them in
the long run. But it might not be possible.
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "Brainfried" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 07:25:42 AM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:07:55 +0000, Martin Thomas wrote:
On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, (SReeseMe) wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism: belief in a God which created the world and then left it
to its own devices. (Brainfried explains more) As far as I know,
there is no other, differing, use of the word.
By the most common definition of Theism, 'belief in a God', Deism
is a kind of Theism. However, some people use 'Theism' in a more
restricted sense: 'belief in a Christian type God', which is
incomputable with Deism.
( So many our words have multiple, incompatible meanings:
Atheist: 'No belief in God' or 'Belief in no God'
Agnostic: 'Belief that no one knows' or 'I do not know'
Obviously, the God who threw us from the Tower of Babel
is still hard at work today - even if he does not exist. :)
In practice atheists have more in common with deists than with
most theists, but your fundy friends are talking nonsense.
I almost envy how simple and uncomplicated things are to many
fundies. There are only 2 options: go to Hell or go to Heaven.
Many of them cannot really grasp that there people who don't
share their odd beliefs.
If we are Hell bound, we are all the same. We are Atheistic,
Satan worshiping Pagans - and probably in league with Mohammed.
If you can gently present any facts to them, it may help them in
the long run. But it might not be possible.
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
Deists are often considered atheists by Christians and such.
The Declaration of Independence was quite obviously written by deists
(the atheists of their time). Notice its' wording (speaks of Creator,
Nature's God, and Natural Law) Get it? Of course there were really some
atheists in that time. Darwin and DNA would come along later and this has
an impact on religious beliefs.
Now "Mother Nature" mentioned by Mark is a bit different animal. Although
similar in spirit (no pun intended), "Mother Nature" is a pagan
deity.
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| User: "Dr. DuFonet" |
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| Title: Is mother nature a pagan deity? Was Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 09:20:41 AM |
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"Brainfried" <no@way.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.10.28.13.25.39.887000@way.com...
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:07:55 +0000, Martin Thomas wrote:
On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, (SReeseMe) wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a
form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that
deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of
atheism.
So which is it?
<snipped>
Deists are often considered atheists by Christians and such.
The Declaration of Independence was quite obviously written by deists
(the atheists of their time). Notice its' wording (speaks of Creator,
Nature's God, and Natural Law) Get it? Of course there were really some
atheists in that time. Darwin and DNA would come along later and this has
an impact on religious beliefs.
Now "Mother Nature" mentioned by Mark is a bit different animal. Although
similar in spirit (no pun intended), "Mother Nature" is a pagan
deity.
mother Nature can only be considered a Pagan Deity in the context of Pagan
worship. The term is loosely used to describe a more Deistic type of force.
God allowing the natural world to take its course.
--
:"Everythin's better with DoFunny on it."
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| User: "Mike Ruskai" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 12:56:12 PM |
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On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, SReeseMe wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism is not a form of theism. Theism is the belief in a personal god
interested in the affairs of humans. That's 'personal' as in 'possessing
a personality', not as in 'personal trainer'. Atheism is the lack of such
a belief.
Technically, deists are also atheists, but then again, so are rocks (which
don't believe anything, having no brain).
More specifically, a deist is someone who believes in a universal creator
(personal or non-personal) that is oblivious to human affairs, or at least
doesn't interact with them.
In most cases, deism is just a capitulation to ignorance. We don't know
exactly how the universe came into being, and we don't know what lies
'outside' of it (there's no word that properly conveys the notion). Much
will likely forever remain unknown. Rather than tolerate unanswered
questions, the deist places responsibility on an imaginary creative force
of some kind, even though there's no positive evidence to support such a
belief.
--
- Mike
Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 06:17:54 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:56:12 GMT, "Mike Ruskai"
<spamten.knilhtrae@begonedynnaht.net> wrote:
On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, SReeseMe wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism is not a form of theism. Theism is the belief in a personal god
interested in the affairs of humans. That's 'personal' as in 'possessing
a personality', not as in 'personal trainer'. Atheism is the lack of such
a belief.
Technically, deists are also atheists, but then again, so are rocks (which
don't believe anything, having no brain).
More specifically, a deist is someone who believes in a universal creator
(personal or non-personal) that is oblivious to human affairs, or at least
doesn't interact with them.
In most cases, deism is just a capitulation to ignorance. We don't know
exactly how the universe came into being, and we don't know what lies
'outside' of it (there's no word that properly conveys the notion). Much
will likely forever remain unknown. Rather than tolerate unanswered
questions, the deist places responsibility on an imaginary creative force
of some kind, even though there's no positive evidence to support such a
belief.
I suppose it's easy for people to think there is a higher power,
force, etc. The world IS big, and even science tells us the universe
is infinite.
Deists may name it.
Theists worship it for fear of death and eternal damnation, and insist
we do the same. They also persist in believing that it has a rotten
opinion of us and must be pleased, or else. In effect, they sell
inferiority and guilt complexes, then sell the solution.
drift
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 05:05:08 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:56:12 GMT, "Mike Ruskai"
<spamten.knilhtrae@begonedynnaht.net> wrote:
On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, SReeseMe wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism is not a form of theism. Theism is the belief in a personal god
interested in the affairs of humans. That's 'personal' as in 'possessing
a personality', not as in 'personal trainer'. Atheism is the lack of such
a belief.
No. Theism means having any god or gods. Julius Caesar was theist,
subset polytheist, subset Jupiter. Mars, Venus, etc.
Technically, deists are also atheists, but then again, so are rocks (which
don't believe anything, having no brain).
No. They are a variety of theist. Because they believe in a god.
More specifically, a deist is someone who believes in a universal creator
(personal or non-personal) that is oblivious to human affairs, or at least
doesn't interact with them.
In most cases, deism is just a capitulation to ignorance. We don't know
exactly how the universe came into being, and we don't know what lies
'outside' of it (there's no word that properly conveys the notion). Much
will likely forever remain unknown. Rather than tolerate unanswered
questions, the deist places responsibility on an imaginary creative force
of some kind, even though there's no positive evidence to support such a
belief.
I agree with this.
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| User: "Jim07D3" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 05:40:56 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> said:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:56:12 GMT, "Mike Ruskai"
<spamten.knilhtrae@begonedynnaht.net> wrote:
On 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 GMT, SReeseMe wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism is not a form of theism. Theism is the belief in a personal god
interested in the affairs of humans. That's 'personal' as in 'possessing
a personality', not as in 'personal trainer'. Atheism is the lack of such
a belief.
No. Theism means having any god or gods. Julius Caesar was theist,
subset polytheist, subset Jupiter. Mars, Venus, etc.
Technically, deists are also atheists, but then again, so are rocks (which
don't believe anything, having no brain).
No. They are a variety of theist. Because they believe in a god.
More specifically, a deist is someone who believes in a universal creator
(personal or non-personal) that is oblivious to human affairs, or at least
doesn't interact with them.
In most cases, deism is just a capitulation to ignorance. We don't know
exactly how the universe came into being, and we don't know what lies
'outside' of it (there's no word that properly conveys the notion). Much
will likely forever remain unknown. Rather than tolerate unanswered
questions, the deist places responsibility on an imaginary creative force
of some kind, even though there's no positive evidence to support such a
belief.
I agree with this.
I do too, except for the notion that deism is in most cases a
capitulation to ignorance, rather, I'd say it is (or was) a rather
bold and rational step away from ignorance and authoritarianism, if
looked at in the context of its times.
Jim07D3
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| User: "Rv Cloim" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 06:22:46 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 +0000, SReeseMe wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism?
A belief in god not based upon revelation.
Many say that god does not interfere with its creation. However, that is
not a necessary attribute of deism.
Is it a form of theism or a
form of agnosticism or is it something else?
Words have many meanings. It depends upon how you define them.
In it's simplest form theism is a belief in deity. Which would make a
deist a theist.
In other contexts, 'theism' is used in a manner than contrasts with 'deism' or
'pantheism'. Specifically referring to an Abrahamic style God
(Jewish/Christian/Islamic).
Using the second definition, deism is not a form of theism.
Same type of situation exists with atheism and agnosticism.
Atheism is an absence of theism. Which theism? If the first form then a
deist is not an atheist. If the second form then they are.
Agnostic Deism is possible. I would expect it to be rather common among
deists. At least using the definition of agnosticism "knowledge of god is
impossible". Deists may disagree.
I've heard from atheists
that deism is a form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism
is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Both are correct.
thanks
-Stephen
Glad I could straighten things out :)
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| User: "Brainfried" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
27 Oct 2003 09:54:26 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:22:31 +0000, SReeseMe wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
thanks
-Stephen
Neither.
I once was a deist...
A deist believes in a higher being (non-specific) by observation. (not by
reading a book or listening to others)
A deist looks around and sees order and determines that things must have
been planned and that a higher being must have planned everything. Things
are just too perfect to just have happened.
The term "divine watchmaker" is often used to describe the deity that a
deist believes in. The divine watchmaker created the universe, wound it
up and let it go. There are no miracles. God never interferes. God
created it and so it goes.
A deist does not believe in organized religion. A deist does believe in
"god".
Now...
How did I become an atheist...
There is no direct evidence of a god. I jumped to a conclusion that
there was a god. There may seem to be indirect evidence of a god, but
"order" can be attributed to other possiblilities.
Furthermore,
I've lately started reading up on evolution. Notice that I became an
atheist BEFORE I started reading up on evolution. (had it in school of
course, the bit that they can cram in) I am an atheist simply because
there is no evidence of god. The books provided by organized religion are
laughable. I've never believed any of them. When I was very young, I was
scared of them, but that's about it.
Additionally,
When you start learning about evolution, you quickly start seeing where a
plan or design is FLAWED or NON-EXISTENT. You will start seeing "order"
within chaos. Like tornados, waves, lightening, wind, etc.
Richard Dawkins has a book entitled: The Blind Watchmaker: Why the
Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design.
You can now understand why he named his book so.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 08:32:57 AM |
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SReeseMe wrote:
Okay I'm confused. What exactly is Deism? Is it a form of theism or a form of
agnosticism or is it something else? I've heard from atheists that deism is a
form of theism and I've heard from fundy Xians that Deism is a form of atheism.
So which is it?
Deism came out of the late Renaissance and was an effort to reconcile the
development of empirical study and the scientific method with traditional religion.
Basically, Deism is a theology that accepts the existence of God as a creator and
moral authority while rejecting belief in an "activist" deity that answers prayers
and performs miracles. The classical metaphor for the Deist view of God is the
Great Clockmaker, who has made a complex piece of clockwork (the universe) that can
be left on its own.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
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| User: "Pastor Salt" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
27 Oct 2003 09:28:35 PM |
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The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and
then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on
natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation
please bookmark www.dictionary.com for any future tricky words you
encounter..
--
Steve
The are no stupid questions.... but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 02:26:48 PM |
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"Pastor Salt" <dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bnkns8$cde$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and
then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on
natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation
please bookmark www.dictionary.com for any future tricky words you
encounter..
*****. Dictionary also says that there is a god.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 02:35:37 AM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:28:35 +1100, "Pastor Salt"
<dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote:
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and
then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on
natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation
And how does one come tho that "conclusion" without pre-existing
belief in one, which means it is not based "solely on reason"?
please bookmark www.dictionary.com for any future tricky words you
encounter..
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| User: "Dr. DuFonet" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 09:20:39 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:fgaspvo4v8uitf4kf0nltgf1ic95j1c4eb@4ax.com...
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:28:35 +1100, "Pastor Salt"
<dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote:
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and
then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence
on
natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation
And how does one come tho that "conclusion" without pre-existing
belief in one, which means it is not based "solely on reason"?
Just because it's based on reasopn doesn't mean correct reason. Another
person's reason might not be the same as yours.
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| User: "Brainfried" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
28 Oct 2003 07:05:36 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:20:39 +0000, Dr. DuFonet wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:fgaspvo4v8uitf4kf0nltgf1ic95j1c4eb@4ax.com...
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:28:35 +1100, "Pastor Salt"
<dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote:
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and
then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence
on
natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation
And how does one come tho that "conclusion" without pre-existing
belief in one, which means it is not based "solely on reason"?
Just because it's based on reasopn doesn't mean correct reason. Another
person's reason might not be the same as yours.
Exactly.
Like I said before, I was a deist. I was using reason, or so I thought.
In hindsight, I was not using correct reason.
IMHO, a deist can't see the forest for the trees.
A deist will use reason to determine that the world has order and
attribute that order to god without ever using that reason to determine if
god exists in the first place.
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| User: "Brainfried" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
27 Oct 2003 09:59:55 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:28:35 +1100, Pastor Salt wrote:
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and
then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on
natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation
please bookmark www.dictionary.com for any future tricky words you
encounter..
--
Steve
The are no stupid questions.... but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
But, take the definitions you see there with a grain of salt.
The deist definition is fair.
Only recently, within the last few weeks, has American Heritage removed
"immoral" from their atheist definition. It still says "godless person".
Vomit. Like an atheist is somehow without or deprived of god,
particularly a Christian one. Like they haven't found "the truth" yet.
Additionally, from a scientific standpoint, their evolution defintion is
mangled.
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Deism??? |
27 Oct 2003 11:16:45 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:59:55 GMT, Brainfried <no@way.com> wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:28:35 +1100, Pastor Salt wrote:
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and
then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on
natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation
please bookmark www.dictionary.com for any future tricky words you
encounter..
--
Steve
The are no stupid questions.... but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
But, take the definitions you see there with a grain of salt.
The deist definition is fair.
Only recently, within the last few weeks, has American Heritage removed
"immoral" from their atheist definition. It still says "godless person".
Vomit. Like an atheist is somehow without or deprived of god,
particularly a Christian one. Like they haven't found "the truth" yet.
I like the description "godless person".
I see it as a good thing rather than a problem.
Like being "without cancer".
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
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